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Thread: Giants

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    Default Giants

    I've been promising material for Giants in the Homebrew board for some time. So now it's time to ask questions in preparation for it:

    What about Giants need fixing?

    What material would you most like to see? Feats? New Giants? PrC's?
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    Default Re: Giants

    Their magic needs fixing IMO. Why would a giant take levels in wizard when the early spells are entirely pointless to them? Their inborn HD makes color spray and sleep useless, they have way more health than magic missile will ever get through, etc.

    Some sort of giant caster prestige class which makes much larger fireballs (scaled up to their size say) would be cool.
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    Default Re: Giants

    On this forum, Giants are Almighty, all-powerful entities whom are invulnerable to harm... except for glass... that's right... I went there...
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    Default Re: Giants

    Stone giants have always had a special place in my heart since I designed a set of stone giant triplet npcs back in 2nd edition with the most-excellent Giantcraft AD&D supplement. I would like to see some 3.x update for the giant runes from that book, if it doesn't already exist somewhere. They were super win for utility and great flavor wise.

    I think giants would/should make better use of special kinds of boulders for attacks. A couple campaigns ago I was statting out giant-sized spheres made of other materials or different types of rocks, looking at spells that could be stored on boulders, etc. Any approach to giant magic should deal heavily with this ability of giants. Maybe a version of magic missile that is cast on a boulder, makes no miss chance, and changes the damage dealt to force, add in a racial component (a la BoED or DotU) to casting. Now that would be a spell that would increase the popularity of the giant wizard/sorcerer.
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    Default Re: Giants

    Half giant racial paragon class
    Half giant racial substitution levels (psywar, fighter and either ardent or cleric)

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    Default Re: Giants

    WOuld you like to see 1e/2e giants converted assuming there are any that havent been
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    Default Re: Giants

    All conversions from previous editions are welcome. In particular, there was a small mountain of stuff from 2e, granted some of it was setting specific, but still, even if only a small percent was good material, that's still a great deal.

    I think there was one called a desert giant in 2e? I seem to remember that they were a cursed race, not far from death giants actually, that died early due to some kind of hereditary, progressive petrification. Some excellent flavor. May already be out there somewhere; I'm not totally familiar with the Dragon Magazine stuff.

    Maybe also forest/jungle giants? Can't remember the name, but basically like 18 foot tall amazons/jungle people. And what about voadkyn? The giant-kin are poorly defined, at best, in 3e.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    I've never been able to put my finger on how to describe you Phelix, but I think I have an idea now.

    You're Tippy's fluffy cousin...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu View Post
    I think there was one called a desert giant in 2e? I seem to remember that they were a cursed race, not far from death giants actually, that died early due to some kind of hereditary, progressive petrification. Some excellent flavor. May already be out there somewhere; I'm not totally familiar with the Dragon Magazine stuff.

    Maybe also forest/jungle giants? Can't remember the name, but basically like 18 foot tall amazons/jungle people. And what about voadkyn? The giant-kin are poorly defined, at best, in 3e.
    Monster Manual 2 has Forest giants, and they are 18' tall.
    Monster Manual 3 has sand giants. Not the cursed kind, though.
    Voadkyn appear as wood giants in Tome of Horrors from Necromancer Games.
    Last edited by Jeraa; 2013-01-04 at 09:39 PM.

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    Nice. Thanks for the references. I remember sand giants, but they aren't the creature I was thinking of.

    How about verbeeg? Are the Irda covered in the Dragonlance stuff? They were always cool.

    Other than that, I really think 3e covered most of the bases with the kinds of giants out there, though my knowledge of 1e is very limited.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    I've never been able to put my finger on how to describe you Phelix, but I think I have an idea now.

    You're Tippy's fluffy cousin...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu View Post
    How about verbeeg? Are the Irda covered in the Dragonlance stuff? They were always cool.
    Irda are indeed covered in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

    I can find no mention of the verbeeg. So if they were converted to 3.X, it was in some third party resource, or in an issue of Dragon.

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    Default Re: Giants

    Any of the martial adept classes from Tome of Battle would be fairly ideal for a giant, due to initiator levels benefiting from their naturally high racial HD. There are plenty of prestige classes that are naturally fitting for a giant, taking advantage of their natural size and strength. War Hulk in the Miniatures Handbook and Hulking Hurler in CW are the most popular of these. Mechanics that benefit from size and strength, and mechanics that benefit from high HD and/or extremely high skill checks, would be naturally beneficial to a giant.

    Templates that add spell-like abilities with a HD-based caster level are quite good for giants. Phrenic Creature (XPH), Half-Fey (FF), and to a lesser extend Half-Celestial/Fiend (variant) are all strong choices. There's also the Primordial Giant template in Secrets of Xen'drik, which is superb for a smart/caster giant. There are also Incantations, which many giants could easily accomplish with the right skill ranks. Some new mechanics that grant spell-like abilities or even spellcasting that benefits from high racial HD would be useful.


    How about something like this:


    Master Chanter

    The giants of ancient times were masters of magical chants, able to bend reality with their very words. Most of their knowledge was lost in time, but many of their chants live on in the form of incantations. A master chanter is one who has devoted himself to learning the old ways, mastering ancient chants long forgotten and shaping his words to create new incantations of his own.

    Metagame Analysis: This is only suitable if creating incantations for specific functions for which standard spells would be more useful. For example, an incantation could be created which mimics a Lightning Bolt but only harms creatures made of metal, wearing metal armor, or carrying a large quantity of metal objects. Similarly, an incantation which mimics Fireball could be incapable of harming creatures wearing metal armor. A Stinking Cloud would only be capable of nauseating creatures of a specific type (or humanoids of a specific subtype). Straightforward spells which already have significant limitations, such as (Greater) Fireburst, would be most suitable for conversion directly into an incantation. Note that an incantation's caster level, and thus the power of any spell effect included in it, is based on its DC (see Saves and Spell Resistance).

    Master Chanter Prerequisites:
    Race: Primordial Giant (from Secrets of Xen'drik)
    Skills: Knowledge (Arcana or Religion) 15 ranks, Knowledge (any one) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks, Concentration 8 ranks
    Feats: Skill Focus: Knowledge (any)
    Special: Must have knowledge of at least three incantations, must have successfully developed at least one original incantation, must have successfully cast at least ten incantations, must have discovered a tablet bearing an incantation from one of the ancient giant civilizations and learned its contents.

    Master Chanter Hit Die: d4
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Preemptive Incantations|Illusory Chanters|Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    1
    |
    -
    |Natural Incantator, Preemptive Incantations

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |
    2
    |
    1
    |Illusory Chanters

    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    4
    |
    2
    |Summon Familiar I

    4th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    5
    |
    4
    |Swift Preemptive Incantation 1/day

    5th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    6
    |
    8
    |Signature Focus

    6th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    8
    |
    16
    |Summon Familiar II

    7th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    9
    |
    32
    |Fast Chant

    8th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |
    10
    |
    64
    |Swift Preemptive Incantation 2/day

    9th|
    +4
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |
    12
    |
    128
    |Summon Familiar III

    10th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    13
    |
    256
    |Mastery of Incantations[/table]

    Class Skills (4 + Int modifier per level): Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Perform, Profession, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.

    Natural Incantator (Ex): You have a special knack for casting Incantations, allowing you to add your Master Chanter class level to both your skill checks to cast incantations and to the caster level of any incantation you cast.

    Preemptive Incantation (Sp): When you cast an incantation, you may store its power to be released or incantated at a later time. A Master Chanter can only have a certain number of incantations stored this way at any time, determined by the above table. A stored incantation may be incantated as a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity and otherwise functions as a spell-like ability. Everything involved with casting the incantation, including secondary casters, is performed at the time of casting, the only action required to incantate a stored preemptive incantation is a lengthy chant. Any focus required for a preemptive incantation must be present at the time you incantate it.

    If you take damage while incantating or do so while distracted you must make a concentration check as though casting a spell; failure by 5 or more means the incantation fails and is dissipated, see below. Failure by less than five means you may, if you choose, spend an additional standard action on the following round to finish it if you make a successful knowledge check of the same type and DC as though you were casting that incantation. If you take additional damage before it's complete you must make additional concentration checks. If you choose not to do so, the incantating simply fails and is dissipated as though you had failed the concentration check by 5 or more.

    Once you've stored a preemptive incantation, it must be incantated or dissipated before another preemptive incantation may be stored in its place. An incantation is automatically dissipated if you fail a concentration check as above, or it may be done so voluntarily as a standard action. When an incantation is dissipated it creates a backlash of magical energy which causes damage equal to the incantation's DC multiplied by one-half its number of checks (minimum one) to both yourself and anyone adjacent to you. This damage is raw supernatural magical energy which cannot be resisted, though adjacent creatures may attempt a Reflex save at the incantation's DC to reduce it by half.

    If you keep a preemptive incantation stored for 48 hours or more, there is a chance each day at the time you originally cast it that it automatically dissipates. The chance that this happens is the DC of the incantation that's been stored the longest, plus one-half the DCs of any other incantations which have been stored for 48 hours or more, plus two per day it's been stored, as a percentage. No more than one preemptive incantation per day can be automatically dissipated in this way, and if there were multiple incantations stored for more than two days the one so dissipated is determined randomly.

    Illusory Chanters (Sp): You may summon immaterial illusions of yourself to act as secondary casters when casting any incantation. Doing so requires concentration; make a concentration check at the incantation's DC each time you make a check during the casting. Failing this concentration check is treated exactly the same as failing a skill check to cast the incantation. The number of illusory chanters you may have assisting you at any time is determined by your class level as shown in the above table. The illusory chanters only exist while you're casting an incantation, they appear as transparent and immaterial copies of yourself, and they are only capable of chanting the required words of the incantation.

    Summon Familiar: At 3rd level you gain a familiar as the Sorcerer class feature, selected from the Improved Familiar list in the DMG. Your familiar is automatically capable of speech and knows any one language you know in addition to any it would normally get by virtue of race and intelligence. Your effective Sorcerer level for your familiar's benefits is equal to twice your Master Chanter class level. Your familiar may assist you in casting an incantation as a secondary caster, and it's capable of casting any incantations you know, but it does not benefit from your natural incantator class feature. Upon gaining your familiar, it is capable of storing one of your limited preemptive incantations for you, provided it acts as the caster and makes the required checks to cast it. Your familiar may incantate this preemptive incantation as described above.

    At 6th level, you gain a second familiar selected from that same list. All of the above applies to your second familiar and it's treated exactly the same as your first one, including being capable of storing and incantating a preemptive incantation for you. At 9th level, you gain a third familiar, exactly as described above. Note that any preemptive incantations your familiars are storing for you still count against the total number you may have stored at any time. A preemptive incantation stored by a familiar for more than 48 hours is treated separately from the ones you store yourself for purposes of automatic dissipation. The limit of one automatic dissipation per day is counted separately from yourself for each of your familiars. You may use your Illusory Chanters ability to provide additional secondary casters when one of your familiars is casting an incantation, but you still must make a concentration check at the incantation's DC each time a check is made for that incantation.

    Swift Preemptive Incantation: Once per day, you may incantate a preemptive incantation as a swift action, rather than spending a full round action to do so. At 8th level, your daily uses of this ability increases to two.

    Signature Focus (Ex): You may create a personal totem which serves as a focus for certain incantations you cast in lieu of any material components or experience point costs. Your totem must be an item of at least masterwork quality that holds some significance to your family, tribe, or culture. For example, a stone giant would likely use a carved and painted stone statuette, whereas a fire giant would probably use an iron hammer with flame designs inlaid. You must attune your signature focus to any particular incantation you wish to use it for. Doing so requires rituals and chanting that takes 24 hours and costs fifty times the normal material component and experience point costs of performing that incantation. Once the totem is attuned to an incantation it may be used in place of any material components and experience point costs required for that particular incantation whenever it is cast by you or one of your familiars with your self as a secondary caster. There is no limit to the number of incantations to which your signature focus may be attuned, but you must perform the above ritual to attune it to each one separately. A signature focus can be made into a magical item of its base type, that the base item acts as your signature focus does not make its magical item properties cost any more than normal.

    Fast Chant: At 7th level you may quicken your chants, but doing so makes them more difficult. When casting an incantation, you may make a check every five minutes instead of every ten minutes, but any checks involved in casting it take a -10 penalty. When casting a preemptive incantation this way, it may be incantated as a standard action rather than as a full round action. This has no effect on your Swift Preemptive Incantation ability.

    Mastery of Incantations: I honestly have no idea what to put here. I've used up everything I can think of. Maybe I had something in mind when I first typed this into the table above, but it's gone now.

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    Default Re: Giants

    @biff: I believe this goes without saying, but having a prestige class that gives you the ability to make Incantations or Epic spells is a wee bit overpowered. More or less this prestige class bumps you to Tier 0 (see the Artificer).

    I do love the fluff, however
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    Default Re: Giants

    Spellcasting can be useless or broken or giants, depending on how far you decide to implement the non-associated class rule. For instance, a frost giant sorc16 would be cr18. Not too shabby, but his greatest advantage would be his insane hp for a spellcaster (over 300, thanks to his HD and innate con bonus), ensuring he doesn't get one-shotted by the PCs in the first round, and sparing the DM the need to keep track of a dozen buffs.

    You can also customise them further by swapping out their feats. For example, brutal throw feat lets a giant use str over dex for ranged attack rolls (easily a +8 to-hit bonus for the hill giant alone!). The 3-mountains style lets them potentially nauseate any PC they hit twice in succession (with their high str cranking up the DC even more). In fact, many of the combat style feats in complete warrior and PHB2 fit them quite well.

    My only gripe is that if you are a stickler for the epic progression rules, giants technically make very poor fighters because after a few class lvs, epic rules kick in and subsequent lvs grant only 1/2 bab, so there is little incentive for them to progress in a full-bab class.

    Perhaps what we can do for giant spellcasters is a template which modifies their stats while granting them some spellcasting capabilities relevant to the encounter, cr-wise. Like how the spellstitched template adds spellcasting to undead, though it should be based off cr rather than wis.

    For instance, we could have a giant mage template which grants something like -4str, -4con, +8int. Has 1 spell slot per spell lv, highest spell lv = cr/2, round up. So a hill giant mage would get 1 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th lv spell slot.
    Last edited by Runestar; 2013-01-04 at 11:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Giants

    That I can find there are no official stats for the following:

    Al-Quadim
    Desert Giant
    Jungle Giant
    Reef Giant

    Dark Sun
    Athasian Giant (Beasthead and Humanoid)
    Desert Giant?
    Plains Giant
    Crag Giant
    Shadow Giant?

    Spelljammer
    Spacesea Giant

    Dragonlance
    Earth Giant
    Desolation Giant
    Cave Lord

    Other
    Verbeeg
    Wood Giant
    Voadkyn

    Were there giants released ib the campaign settings for dark sun/dragonlance?
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    Am I the only one who wonders why at least some Giants don't have d12 hit dice, full BAB, Good fort saves, and martial maneuver progressions?
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    Default Re: Giants

    There are official stats for:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Monster Manual 1
    Cloud
    Fire
    Frost
    Hill
    Stone
    Storm

    MM2
    Forest
    Sun
    Ocean
    Mountain

    MM3
    Death
    Eldritch
    Sand

    MM4
    Craa'ghoron

    Fiend Folio
    Bog
    Shadow

    Eberron - Secrets of Xen'drik
    Jungle
    Primordial

    Forgotten Realms - Monsters of Faerun
    Fog
    Phaerlin

    Dragonlance - Beastiary of Krynn
    Desolation


    Thats only from the books I have access to. Its also only those creatures specifically described as giants, not just having the giant type. How well they match their previous versions I also don't know.

    Were there giants released ib the campaign settings for dark sun/dragonlance?
    The only "giant" from the official Dragonlance books I listed above. No Dark Sun books were produced by WotC. Bits and pieces of Darksun material have shown up in other books. Athas.org was officially sanctioned by WotC, so they could be considered "official".
    Last edited by Jeraa; 2013-01-05 at 12:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Giants

    Since so many giants are just 'big people who throw rocks' I'm considering making it a class of some kind. I mean lets face it the only difference between a lot of giants is hit dice and rock throwing/catching ability.
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    Default Re: Giants

    I was studying giants vs trolls extensively, because I was a wildshaping MoMF and the trolls kick Giant's (of equivalent level, or in the case of War Troll, for 6 or 7 levels after) rear ends until nearly epic levels. That never seemed right to me. I think Giants should have more abilities, maybe a SLA or two that are melee combat oriented, like buffs, maybe that increase strength greatly, or extraordinary abilities in the same vein.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    I was studying giants vs trolls extensively, because I was a wildshaping MoMF and the trolls kick Giant's (of equivalent level, or in the case of War Troll, for 6 or 7 levels after) rear ends until nearly epic levels. That never seemed right to me. I think Giants should have more abilities, maybe a SLA or two that are melee combat oriented, like buffs, maybe that increase strength greatly, or extraordinary abilities in the same vein.
    In terms of which is better to wild shape as, clearly trolls are superior, between natural attacks working better for non-full BAB and regeneration just being very useful. The strength of most giants is that they are better organized than trolls, smarter, better equipped (except against war trolls), and have ranged capability. Not much of this translates well into benefits reaped by wild shaping.

    Personally, pit a bunch of giants against trolls, and I'll go with giants any day. Assuming the giants are smart enough to figure out a way around the regeneration, which is hardly rocket science, as burning the bodies of enemies after you've finished dicing them up is actually fairly common behavior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    I've never been able to put my finger on how to describe you Phelix, but I think I have an idea now.

    You're Tippy's fluffy cousin...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu View Post
    In terms of which is better to wild shape as, clearly trolls are superior, between natural attacks working better for non-full BAB and regeneration just being very useful. The strength of most giants is that they are better organized than trolls, smarter, better equipped (except against war trolls), and have ranged capability. Not much of this translates well into benefits reaped by wild shaping.

    Personally, pit a bunch of giants against trolls, and I'll go with giants any day. Assuming the giants are smart enough to figure out a way around the regeneration, which is hardly rocket science, as burning the bodies of enemies after you've finished dicing them up is actually fairly common behavior.
    True, this was not an aspect I thought of

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    Default Re: Giants

    Peeking at Ogres for Dragonlance I find three subspecies of Yrasda (aquatic ogres): Aphelka, Thanic, and Ushama. There are two forms of Ogres the Irda (which have been mentioned) and the Orughi.

    Ice Spire Ogres from Forgotten Realms.

    Zhankaran Ogres from Al Quadim.

    For Trolls I have Giant Troll, Spirit Troll, Black Troll, Giant Two Headed Troll, Snow Troll, Fire Troll, Gray Troll, Phaze Troll, Stone Troll, Troll Mutate, Trollhound, Blood Troll, Desert Troll, Tree Troll, and Llorts.

    Any of these have official 3.5 stats?
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    Default Re: Giants

    Regeneration isn't as scary when you can just CDG the unconscious enemies.

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    Default Re: Giants

    Quote Originally Posted by docnessuno View Post
    Half giant racial paragon class
    Half giant racial substitution levels (psywar, fighter and either ardent or cleric)
    Meh, I think we need a new half-giant template altogether (or was it a race? I forget). The current one doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Why would they suddenly have innate psionic abilities? Giants don't.
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    Default Re: Giants

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik von Nein View Post
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    Default Re: Giants

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterofFates View Post
    Meh, I think we need a new half-giant template altogether (or was it a race? I forget). The current one doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Why would they suddenly have innate psionic abilities? Giants don't.
    The half-giant psionic trait is a result of their creation. They aren't so much the product of the union of a giant and human, I think?

    Since so many giants are just 'big people who throw rocks' I'm considering making it a class of some kind. I mean lets face it the only difference between a lot of giants is hit dice and rock throwing/catching ability.
    Alternatively, we could look at perhaps giving each giant some sort of signature ability, like what 4e did?
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    Default Re: Giants

    If I remeber correctly, Evil Psion's used domination mental effects to force humans and giants to breed with each other. The result of the Psionic interference was the kids having Inane Psionic ability's.
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    Default Re: Giants

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    If I remeber correctly, Evil Psion's used domination mental effects to force humans and giants to breed with each other. The result of the Psionic interference was the kids having Inane Psionic ability's.
    Someone please tell me this isn't true
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    Default Re: Giants

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    If I remeber correctly, Evil Psion's used domination mental effects to force humans and giants to breed with each other. The result of the Psionic interference was the kids having Inane Psionic ability's.
    I was going to snark about the difference between inane and innate, but I realized that either one would work here.
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    Default Re: Giants

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhu
    Since so many giants are just 'big people who throw rocks' I'm considering making it a class of some kind. I mean lets face it the only difference between a lot of giants is hit dice and rock throwing/catching ability.
    I like that idea. If it works for dragons, where all of them share the basic chassis with some different numbers and unique racial abilities, the same approach could work for giants.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterofFates View Post
    Meh, I think we need a new half-giant template altogether (or was it a race? I forget). The current one doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Why would they suddenly have innate psionic abilities? Giants don't.
    It's due to the fact that the XPH half-giant race, like thri-kreen, is from the Dark Sun setting where all races were innately psionic; there's no reason for a hypothetical generic half-X-giant template to have psionics.
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    Default Re: Giants

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhu View Post
    For Trolls I have Giant Troll, Spirit Troll, Black Troll, Giant Two Headed Troll, Snow Troll, Fire Troll, Gray Troll, Phaze Troll, Stone Troll, Troll Mutate, Trollhound, Blood Troll, Desert Troll, Tree Troll, and Llorts.

    Any of these have official 3.5 stats?
    Forrest Troll might make more sense

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