Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

[123456789blaaa]

Assassin's Handbook was made at least a year or so after the IC contest though.

Scratch that then. What about the Pyro?

[Dusk Eclipse]

No idea really.

[GreenSerpent]

Scratch that then. What about the Pyro?

Couldn't resist.

[Vaz]

http://dndtools.eu/classes/

Scroll down, and see where your cursor lies. DO THAT ONE.

Watch how we end up with something daft like Windwright Captain.

[Amphetryon]

From Xien Ha Fang:

Thanks for taking your time Darkcouch.

I have a couple of questions/queries/disputes, regarding some points brought up.

1. Was the expectation of Wu Jen really that much? I was surprised there were so many; if that was the case, then while it does not change the score, it is the wrong reason. What was it about the Wu Jen that made it so highly expected otherwise?

2. "Relatively Frail". I am an outsider using PAO to turn into a Pit Fiend - albeit minus SU and SL; which incidentally still benefit from drift, see next point. Whether this changes my HP or not, I don't know - it's not especially clear; assuming base stats, I outclass ANYTHING; and WBL will typically up that further, as will persisted Metamagic buffs. I can also BOB minimum 3, more likely 6+ 1/4 HP clones and they can fight in my place. Throw on Bite of the Werebear (see below again, for how I get all spells), and Giant Size (oddly, an untyped bonus), I have a +48 on top of my base of 37 for a pit fiend - these are persisted. What I hit will hurt. BOB clones aren't clearly defined as what they clone - they could arguably also copy the effect of what happens to myself through spells. This can go higher, but the most important is the elevation to an Int of 44 or higher for a total of 3 extra 9ths etc. That is nowhere near weak. Prior to getting 8ths, yes, but the sweet spot is 20th for a reason. I won't be doing much frontlining outside of Polymorphing until that point.

3. Drift is an Ex ability, and Polymorph keeps class levels, Rules of the Game keeps Ex abilities that are class levels, QED I have all of my drift attacks available - on top of my Bite+Wingsx2+Clawsx2/Chainx3 (minimum) while the clones have the drift on top of Bite+Wingsx2+Clawsx2/QStaffx2. Even if an enemy is capable of fighting off the Clones, they are still utterly real (if dispellable), and look as such - a party with 7 Pit Fiends is going to be horrible.

4. Incantatrix, yep, that I'd noticed, [edited by Chairman to preserve anonymity] - along with removing the dead level and replacing with Archmage at 20th. . . However, Wu Jen 4 still advances me to 9ths, so is hardly that much lost power. However, compared to an SLA 2/day Miracle, it's that powerful. Still.

5. All spells. A spell list and form of casting is a parameter; if it wasn't there'd be no limit on what spells you can cast. As at the time of casting I can change what parameters are in effect on the spell - "from any of my classes to gain the maximum possible advantage". Thus I can cast any spell prepared as if it was a Wu Jen spell, and hence arcane.

This opens me up to every spell in the entire game - Sor and Wiz through Archivist+Hexer, Bard through Archivist+Divine Bard, all Domain, all Divine Spells etc, and Wu Jen. Outside of Alignment and Enchantment that is (Archmage 1 with SLA Miracle would allow me to cast both of those outside of Ench 8th and 9ths, but that wasn't in my build I submitted).

That was my use of Secret Ingredient, and if Spell Versatility cannot be used to do that, then Spell Versatility does not do what it is designed to do. If it's limited to those Parameters listed in CompDiv, then any class outside of Sor/Wiz, Cleric, Druid, or Bard cannot benefit from it. That is clearly not the case, and as such, Spell Versatility allows you to change the parameters of spells at the time of casting, regardless of how it's prepared. It is cast as a Wu Jen spell that is able to bypass ASF

[OMG PONIES]

Sweet, a judge! This was the first time I was legitimately afraid that we wouldn't have anyone weigh in on our builds. Thanks for coming through DarkCouch, and don't worry about the disputes--good judging should inspire discussion. After all, it gives us something to do until the deadline.

Final(?) Tallies After One Judge Before Disputes

{table=head]Entry|Place|Total
Bjorn Ioreksen|Gold|18.5
Geto the Hermit|Silver|18.25
Lo-Kag Rootwatcher|Bronze|17.75
Adishesha|Bronze|17.75
Me'un!tii|Fifth|17.5
Lou Greene|Fifth|17.5
Erwin Schroedinger|Seventh|16.25
Verdant|Eighth|16
Abelard Lindsay|Ninth|15.75
Stone Temple Pilot|Ninth|15.75
Sweet Brown|Ninth|15.75
Neewa|Twelfth|15.5
Fuji-San|Thirteenth|15
Dread Roberts|Fourteenth|14.75
Xien Ha Feng|Fifteenth|14.5
Borrower of Magic|Sixteenth|13
Meepo|Seventeenth|12.5[/table]

[Darkcouch]

The Polymorph rules do state that you retain all your extraordinary attacks from class levels when you change form; however, it also says in Polymoprh revisited 3 that extraordinary special attacks are primarily a function of the mind. It calls drift extraordinary abilities, however in the next sentance it refers to natural attacks. In addition, the polymorph rules say that supernatural abilities for which you do not have the required body part do not function. Therfore my contention, how I would rule as a DM, and the critera I used on all builds, is that if the new form does not have the required body part it can not take the additional attack. This applies to Verdent's Wing question and Xien Ha Fang, but Xien didn't get any power reduction from losing those attack anyways.

I said Xien was relatively frail beacuse, according to Polymorph Revisited Part 2, you retain your hps and do not benefit from changes in CON modifier. As for wu Jen 4 it didn't effect power at all only elegance.

I expected Wu Jen because it and wizard are the only arcane classes that get both required knowledge skills and get 2nds at lvl 3 plus Wu Jen gets a free metamagic for a more realistic chance of an early entry trick to the SI.

A wu jen casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the wu jen spell list (page 91). She is limited to a certain number of spells of each spell level per day, according to her class level. A wu jen must choose and prepare spells ahead of time like a wizard

It says nothing about a spellbook and a spellbook and prayerbook are not the same thing

Neewa I did not notice that aspect of Sha'ir casting and have changed your score accordingly.

Me'Un!tii grabbing Vimpiric for the temp hps make sense I have adjusted accordingly.

[Piggy Knowles]

I dunno about EoG. Would there be that much variety in builds?

I wonder what action the Blinding Spittle ability takes?

I know! It's so terribly bland, and forces you into such a cruddy fighting style! That's why I'd love to take a crack at it for an IC....

Regarding blinding spittle, I know that Su abilities are standard if not otherwise specified. I'll have to go book-trawling to see if there's a similar line for Ex abilities. It'd be nice if it was considered an attack action, since it's a ranged touch, though.

[The Viscount]

Gotterdammerung and Darkcouch, nominations for Honorable Mentions are sent by PM. I suggest you edit your posts accordingly.

Darkcouch, thanks for coming in to judge in our time of need. Thank you for judging, and early enough that chefs may air their concerns.

[Venger]

Darkcouch, I am very impressed with your judging!

it's thorough, consistently applied to each contestant, and going through all your judgings, something that I agree with for the most part

I admire your fortitude taking on the polymorph rules regarding the way they apply to drift. that really is confusing (I know it was when I was cooking)

I hope you'll become a regular fixture in iron chefs to come.

[GreenSerpent]

One small thing I noticed. Is "earliest entry" really worth points? I don't think I've ever seen points awarded for it in previous Iron Chef competitions, and it seems a fairly nonsensical thing to award points for (especially when it's almost certainly possible to get in earlier - Dusk Giant cheese, level draining and Earth Spell Sha'ir comes to mind).

[Gotterdammerung]

One small thing I noticed. Is "earliest entry" really worth points? I don't think I've ever seen points awarded for it in previous Iron Chef competitions, and it seems a fairly nonsensical thing to award points for (especially when it's almost certainly possible to get in earlier - Dusk Giant cheese, level draining and Earth Spell Sha'ir comes to mind).

If late entry is worth negative points then nothing wrong with early entry being worth positive points.

[GreenSerpent]

If late entry is worth negative points then nothing wrong with early entry being worth positive points.

Technically then everyone who got in before level 6 (assuming Wizard/DruidORCleric is the assumed entry) should be getting early entry points then.

[Muggins]

I suppose it's there for the purpose of mitigating the penalty for taking expected classes to qualify. Except that they're still using the expected classes, so in the case of a Theurge it's not exactly "fair."

Not to say it can't be well-deserved, though.

Edit: Does Nar Demonbinder allow you to qualify for Geomancer, given the requirement is level 2 arcane spells and the Nar Demonbinder class only gives level 4 and higher?

[Kelb_Panthera]

If late entry is worth negative points then nothing wrong with early entry being worth positive points.

I've never seen late entry penalized. Not unless that entry is so late in the character's progression that the character can't finish the SI. Even then they're not penalized for late entry, but for failing to use all 10 levels of the class.

[123456789blaaa]

One small thing I noticed. Is "earliest entry" really worth points? I don't think I've ever seen points awarded for it in previous Iron Chef competitions, and it seems a fairly nonsensical thing to award points for (especially when it's almost certainly possible to get in earlier - Dusk Giant cheese, level draining and Earth Spell Sha'ir comes to mind).

Those methods you listed will most likely be penalized in elegance however. It's a tradeoff.

The reason I favor giving points for early entry is that it allows you to actually experience the SI without having to slog through lots of non-SI levels. One of my favorite IC builds Noxius got into the SI for his comp at level 4. This means you get to actually play the SI until level 13 and still use it's awesome ability's for lot's of levels more (one thing that really bugs me is when you only get to use an awesome capstone for 1 level only!).

[Darkcouch]

Edit: Does Nar Demonbinder allow you to qualify for Geomancer, given the requirement is level 2 arcane spells and the Nar Demonbinder class only gives level 4 and higher?

Adishesha explained that she was using a 2nd lvl Cyst spell cast from a 4th level splot to qualify.

[Gotterdammerung]

I've never seen late entry penalized. Not unless that entry is so late in the character's progression that the character can't finish the SI. Even then they're not penalized for late entry, but for failing to use all 10 levels of the class.

Cryokineticist round had penalization for late entry.

Acolyte of the Skin had positive marks for early entry and negative marks for another players early entry.

There is precedent for many possible judge view points buried in the 100's of pages of IC rounds.

Ultimately, it is up to the judge what he/she deems worth a point or worth a penalty. One judge might penalize you for entering 2 lvls too late and another judge might not penalize anyone for entering late. One judge might give points for entering 1 level early and another judge might only give points for entering 3 lvls early.

[Amphetryon]

One small thing I noticed. Is "earliest entry" really worth points? I don't think I've ever seen points awarded for it in previous Iron Chef competitions, and it seems a fairly nonsensical thing to award points for (especially when it's almost certainly possible to get in earlier - Dusk Giant cheese, level draining and Earth Spell Sha'ir comes to mind).

It is if the judge deems it important. Also, let's avoid potentially pejorative terms like "nonsensical" in describing a judge's rulings, shall we?

Other notes from contestants:

Abelard

1. Abelard was deducted for saying that Geomancer can't advance Artificer. However, it very much can, per Magic of Eberron. The relevant rules quote is as follows:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic of Eberron, p53
ARTIFICERS AND PRESTIGE CLASSES

Artificers benefit in a specific way from prestige classes that have “+1 level of existing spellcasting class” as a level advancement benefit. An artificer taking levels in such a prestige class does not gain any of his class abilities, but he does gain an increased caster level when using his infusions. Levels of prestige classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively stack with the artificer’s level to determine his effective caster level. An artificer gains access to higher-level infusions at these prestige class levels as though he had gained a level in the artificer class.

(An extrapolation of this would also imply that ley lines, which give a flat boost to CL independent of being arcane or divine, should also boost infusion CL, but I suppose your mileage may vary on that count.)

2. Darkcouch mentions only counting the Luck domain as a domain known, and then points to Elegance as to his reason why. I assume this is because, if Geomancer does not advance Abelard's level for infusions, he can't perform his Substitute Domain trick. However, since (as above) the Geomancer CAN progress artificer CL, this should no longer be the case, giving Abelard 40+ domains. This should allow him to switch to other domains when less defensive spells are needed.

3. Darkcouch mentions Abelard's feats being 1/day. However, in the entry Abelard does state that he uses Bone Talisman to pick up turning, which lets him use Death Devotion and Animal Devotion multiple times.

4. Why was Able Learner penalized? I see that this was done for all builds that used it, so it's fair across the board and I'm not asking for the score to be adjusted. I'm just curious as to the reasoning behind this.

Adishesha

Adishesha was deducted because "effectively only 4/10 lvls were used to progress casting you could have had 7th cleric casting with no CL change."

This isn't true, though. The nar demonbinder's caster level is equal to his nar demonbinder level, plus the total number of levels in one other spellcasting class of choice, not the total CL for another spellcasting class:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unapproachable East
The demonbinder's caster level is equal to his demonbinder level plus his levels in one other spellcasting class of his choice.

So, using geomancer to progress cleric for the remaining six levels would have dropped Adishesha's total CL by 6 for blasphemy. Since blasphemy was his favorite offensive weapon (other than, you know, armies of mind-controlled slaves and cyst zombies), Adishesha preferred keeping his CL in this as high as possible to getting higher level cleric spells.

From Xien Ha Fang:

The only mention regarding [spellbook] usage refers to a wizard, as does Wu Jen. Hence, provided I was able to get both Wu Jen spells and any Archivist spells in the same book (easiest being Blessed Book, followed by Spellshard, but normal books would work too), then I can prepare Archivist spells in Wu Jen spells. Spell Versatility at the time of casting changes the Archivist spells into Wu Jen Arcane. It also allows you things like Battle Blessing to apply to all spells, as you can count them as Paladin spells courtesy of Archivist.

From Stone Temple Pilot:

For the judge:

I have answers to some of your confusions regarding my entry, Stone Temple Pilot. I appreciate your time.

•you don't qualify for arcane strike because you can't cast 3rd arcane(assuming Geomancer is advancing druid because there is not casting chart)(-.5)

The unstated justification for taking the feat is Spell Vesatility: it could make a 3rd level druid spell arcane instead of divine at the time of casting. True on the assumption, by the way.

•I'm not sure I understand the logic of getting Practiced spellcaster(wiz) when you end up using your druid CL for wizard spells(-.25)

Without it, Alter Self is cast at CL 3 between levels 6-8. You noted that Stone Temple Pilot has limited melee ability at low levels--the feat shortens this annoying window by three levels.

From Verdant:

The Polymorph rules do state that you retain all your extraordinary attacks from class levels when you change form; however, it also says in Polymoprh revisited 3 that extraordinary special attacks are primarily a function of the mind. It calls drift extraordinary abilities, however in the next sentance it refers to natural attacks. In addition, the polymorph rules say that supernatural abilities for which you do not have the required body part do not function. Therfore my contention, how I would rule as a DM, and the critera I used on all builds, is that if the new form does not have the required body part it can not take the additional attack. This applies to Verdent's Wing question and Xien Ha Fang, but Xien didn't get any power reduction from losing those attack anyways.

From Verdant

There are no natural attacks gained from the wings. In addition, please note that Drift is an Extraordinary ability and not a Supernatural ability. Finally, Plant Shape is explicitly said to function as Wild Shape, which is said to function as Polymorph, which is said to function like Alter Self. Alter Self explicitly states that you retain all extraordinary abilities from class levels (which Drift is).

[Therefore], you should keep the wings while in Plant Shape, increasing maneveurability dramatically (as most plant forms move at <20ft per round).

I would also like to emphasise through Plantform Verdant becomes a melee monster. Through taking the form of an Octopus Tree, an Ironmaw, or a similar plantform his combat presence shoots upwards.

Octopus Tree for example. 8 Improved Grab attacks, if he hits with any of them he can make a trip as a free action. Tendriculos. If you're not immune to paralysis then Swallow Whole is more or less a death sentence.

In addition due to him not using his Wu Jen spells (mostly due to only having first level spells available) he is more-or-less WIS SAD.

[Piggy Knowles]

I've never seen late entry penalized. Not unless that entry is so late in the character's progression that the character can't finish the SI. Even then they're not penalized for late entry, but for failing to use all 10 levels of the class.

I actually see late entry penalized with some frequency. There's two usual justifications, both of which are often valid. The first is that delaying entry marginalizes the usefulness of many class features. The second is that tacking on ten levels of an SI onto the end of a build doesn't really showcase the SI, but rather seems like it was just added on to finish out a non-SI build.

I've got no problem with seeing early entry rewarded, as long as any given judge applies it fairly, as seems to be the case here.

[Draz74]

I actually see late entry penalized with some frequency.

Third'ed. I've been penalized for it myself, back when I actually got around to entering contestants into Iron Chef. It's a thing, for better or worse.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Third'ed. I've been penalized for it myself, back when I actually got around to entering contestants into Iron Chef. It's a thing, for better or worse.

Fourth'd. I've been dinged for it as well (I think in the Temple Raider one, but don't quote me on that).

[Darkcouch]

Abelard:
I looked for somthing that said as much but could only found that infusions were specified as definately not spells. They would have been hard pressed to put that sidebar in a more obscure place. I have adjusted accordingly.

Verdent:
I was not saying that the wings are supernatural ability, i was making a correlation between supernatural abilities not being usable when the new form does not have the required body part and extrordinary attacks from drift having the same limitation(drift attack are also refered to as natural attack and acording to the polymorph rules you lose all natural attacks from your old form). I've said my piece on the polymorph issue, applied my criteria consistantly, and will not be adjusting any scores for said issue.

Adishesha:
Even if you do lose 6 CLs I contend that 6 lvls of cleric casting is a better use of the progression than 6 CLs. The score stands.

Xien:
We are going to have to agree to disagree. I'm having trouble following your logic, but i think the gist of what you are saying is that you put your Wu Jen spells and Archivist spells in the same book, so they are then all Wu Jen spells? Wu Jen gives a specific list of spells they can prepare. Very few things besides a few prestige classes can skirt this limitation.

Stone Temple Pilot:
I do not think Spell Versatility can change the arcane or divine nature of a spell only the perameters by which they are cast. If we go with your supposition, we open ourselves to all sorts of abuses. For instance we could end up having an Arch Mage that only has one level of an arcane casting class.

[Amphetryon]

i was making a correlation between supernatural abilities not being usable when the new form does not have the required body part and extrordinary attacks from drift having the same limitation(drift attack are also refered to as natural attack and acording to the polymorph rules you lose all natural attacks from your old form)

1. Wings aren't an attack. 2. The correlation you're making becomes (Ex) abilities are the same as (Su) abilities in this instance, which is demonstrably inaccurate by the RAW.

[Amphetryon]

In other news, I'm hoping IdleMuse or another brave soul steps up to judge, in order to break the 3rd place log-jam. Otherwise, we could have a tie there (among other spots).

[Kuulvheysoon]

Looks like a three way tie for Bronze, taking into account Darkcouch's judicial adjustments. Let's hope for another judge to break this.

[Vaz]

So is that us done now? Big thank you to Darkcouch for stepping up!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not quite.

Any judges that still haven't weighed in have until midnight GMT tommorrow to do so.

[IdleMuse]

I'm afraid I won't be able to judge this round, too many entries, too complex a SI, and i've been lumbered with a load of work recently. I'm still interested in Iron Chef though, with fingers crossed I'd like to judge next round.

[Amphetryon]

I'm afraid I won't be able to judge this round, too many entries, too complex a SI, and i've been lumbered with a load of work recently. I'm still interested in Iron Chef though, with fingers crossed I'd like to judge next round.

Sorry to hear it, IdleMuse.

I'll put it to a vote: What is the preferred method of handling the tie for Bronze, if another judge doesn't come forward? Leave it as a tie, secret ballot, Chairman tie-breaker, something else?