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  1. - Top - End - #181
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Venger's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Quote Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles View Post
    Wow, 17 builds... The judges are going to have their work cut out for them. I think that's the most there has been since I've started ICing except for possibly Shadowdancer.
    shadowdancer actually also had 17, so yeah. that is an awful lot though. we'll probably see judgings at the end. good luck indeed
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

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  2. - Top - End - #182
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Its definitely because its a caster, I wasn't interested in the last one because I find casters a lot more fun to optimize, and I bet there are others who share my point of view. The fact that its the first 10/10 caster also helps.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Devil

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Technically its a 10/10, but realistically its a 6/10 or 7/10 at best, due to the entry prereq's requiring dropped primary caster levels. Unless of course you've gone for duel 5th level casters; however the optimizers would have a heart attack due to that.

    Gonna start reading through them all now.

  4. - Top - End - #184
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Technically its a 10/10, but realistically its a 6/10 or 7/10 at best, due to the entry prereq's requiring dropped primary caster levels. Unless of course you've gone for duel 5th level casters; however the optimizers would have a heart attack due to that.

    Gonna start reading through them all now.
    There are several methods to mitigate the loss to 0 or very low, I see several of them have been used.

  5. - Top - End - #185
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    My third build was going to be using initiate of Amaunator from power of faerun. Basically using spell versatility to be able to spontaneous cast any fire spell I know. But I barely had time to finish the 2nd build and I couldn't find a good angle even if i did have time. I was half hoping to see it in someone elses entry.

  6. - Top - End - #186
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    I toyed with the idea of grabbing RAI instead of RAW, and using that as an argument to enter with Shadowcaster. There was another one with Archivist/Warmage to pump Warmage Edge and DMM:More Damage, but the idea came late.

    I think Dragon Disciple had 21 entries.

  7. - Top - End - #187
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    I think Dragon Disciple had 21 entries.
    Wow, that's one that I missed - was on a work trip and didn't have the chance to enter or judge. Didn't realize it had so many.

    I've read through most of the entries and I just need to reiterate, I'm super impressed. I thought I'd managed to exhaust most of the entry options when brainstorming this time, but there are a couple here that I didn't expect.

    EDIT: And, since I've got some time as I wait for the handyman to show up, a build breakdown!

    • Fuji-San: Goliath, Divine Bard 4/Wu Jen 3/Geomancer 10/Wizard 1/Marshal 1
    • Meepo: Kobold, Hexblade 8/Divine Crusader 2/Geomancer 10
    • Dread Roberts: Human, Bard 4/Ranger 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Blackguard 3/Sublime Chord 1/Geomancer 10
    • Neewa: Unseelie Fey Vanaras, Sha'ir 1/Binder 2/Anima Mage 10/Geomancer 7
    • Geto the Hermit: Human, Cloistered Cleric 3/Geomancer 10/Sorcerer 1/Mystic Theurge 6
    • Me'un!tii: Darfellan, Duskblade 7/Divine Crusader 3/Geomancer 10
    • Lo-Kag Rootwatcher: Goliath, Sha'ir 4/Earth Dreamer 5/Geomancer 10
    • Xien Ha Feng: Neraph, Wu Jen 4/Archivist 3/Incantatrix 3/Geomancer 10
    • Lou Greene: Azurin, Druid 3/Sorcerer 2/Sentinel of Bharrai 3/Geomancer 10/Holt Warden 2
    • Verdant: Warforged, Druid 4/Wu Jen 1/Landforged Walker 5/Geomancer 10
    • Borrower of Magic: Illumian, Savage Bard 2/Human Paragon 3/Ur-Priest 1/Geomancer 10/Sublime Chord 1/Spellthief 1/Wu Jen 1/Wizard 1
    • Abelard Lindsay: Human, Artificer 3/Duskblade 5/Divine Crusader 2/Geomancer 10
    • Adishesha: Aquatic Human, Cloistered Cleric 7/Nar Demonbinder 3/Geomancer 10
    • Bjorn Ioreksen: Human, Spirit Shaman 3/Beguiler 1/Geomancer 10/Sentinel of Bharrai 6
    • Stone Temple Pilot: Neraph, Druidic Avenger 7/Wizard 3/Geomancer 10
    • Erwin Schroedinger: Human, Wu Jen 4/Monk 1/Ur-Priest 2/Geomancer 10/Assassin 1/Dragon Disciple 2
    • Sweet Brown: Loredrake Kobold, Sorcerer 1/Paladin of Slaughter 4/Spellsword 1/Geomancer 10/Escalation Mage 4
    Last edited by Piggy Knowles; 2013-01-20 at 12:39 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    @Seer, must admit I'd only skimmed at that time.

    Interesting to note that all 10 levels were used in 15 of the builds, and the ones that weren't were still significant investments.

    Of the classes used for entry; Wu Jen seems to be popular, with 4.

  9. - Top - End - #189
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Of the classes used for entry; Wu Jen seems to be popular, with 4.
    I actually count five: Fuji-San, Xien Ha Feng, Verdant, Borrower of Magic and Erwin Schroedinger.

    Bard, druid, wizard and divine crusader all come in second with three apiece.
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Dusk Eclipse's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    I am actually surprised so little Ur-priest this round, I guess it was that most people thought it was so obvious that everyone would use it.
    Just call me Dusk
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Quote Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles View Post
    I actually count five: Fuji-San, Xien Ha Feng, Verdant, Borrower of Magic and Erwin Schroedinger.

    Bard, druid, wizard and divine crusader all come in second with three apiece.
    Bleh, phone typing.

    In regards to UrPriest, I completely forgot it. Saw it and was all "dammit".

    Edit; I suppose originality can both refer to how much you expect a class, and how comparatively unique it is.
    Last edited by Vaz; 2013-01-20 at 12:52 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    I'm really rather surprised at a few of the others. I didn't expect some of those approaches! One or two look a little dubious, but apart from that everything looks interesting!
    Illumian Dread Necromancer Lich avatar by Tinymushroom.
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    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...

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  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    2 neraphs and a green dragon disciple?

    Well those are certainly unexpected. Dimes to dollars that the two neraphs are from the same entrant though.
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  14. - Top - End - #194
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Just couldn't get anything done this round. Some thoughts:

    Sha'ir was something I was toying with, and I'm glad to see some people also went that direction. I wasn't confident enough on the rules interpretation to go with that, though. Some of my ideas on this one were pretty firmly in the area of Known Cheese too, so I dumped this pretty quick because I couldn't find much to do with Geomancer that couldn't be done with another class.

    I considered Factotum/Ur-Priest. Arcane Dilettante does give you the ability to cast Arcane Spells, so I figured that this would be a fun way of picking up full Divine casting and pooping some Standard Actions. It just didn't do anything other than that, and Geomancer didn't add much. There's a LOT of better ways to get two spells in a round than Factotum, and none of the abilities of either class synergized with what Geomancer gave me.

    My last idea was to use the Divine Minion template and buy off the LA, which would have been a way to get me Pounce (Lion form). I would have gone with a Full Base Attack class that upped my combat ability, then put on Trapsmith and Ur-Priest. I was trying to make this work with Fangshields Ranger and Warforged as the race. Feats would have gone quickly to Improved Multiattack. The idea here was to be a charge-pouncer with the Geomancer's extra natural attacks. I liked this idea the best, because it would have had this Terminator / Machine Chimera / Divine Instrument of Vengeance feel to it that made me giddy.
    "What is Sanity? Madness put to good use. What is our waking life? A dream controlled."
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  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Devil

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    looking at it now, there is so much i'd change. That is the beauty of the competition i guess though. it has made me want to play my geomancer. just... improving a bit. i've learned so much though while making it.

  16. - Top - End - #196
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Killer View Post
    My last idea was to use the Divine Minion template and buy off the LA, which would have been a way to get me Pounce (Lion form). I would have gone with a Full Base Attack class that upped my combat ability, then put on Trapsmith and Ur-Priest. I was trying to make this work with Fangshields Ranger and Warforged as the race.
    I like this concept, but it doesn't technically work - divine minion can't be applied to warforged:

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Books of Faerun
    "Mulhorandi divine minion" (hereafter "divine minion") is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid, monstrous humanoid, humanoid or monstrous humanoid with the celestial or fiendish template, or humanoid-shaped outsider (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
    That said, Trapsmith sounds like a great lead in - Trapsmith 3/Ur-Priest 2 would qualify for Geomancer, and then ten levels would be exactly enough to max out both Trapsmith and Ur-Priest casting. Very nice.
    Last edited by Piggy Knowles; 2013-01-20 at 09:48 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #197
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Quote Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles View Post
    I like this concept, but it doesn't technically work - divine minion can't be applied to warforged:
    I did not notice that. Still, I liked it. Even though it would not have worked here, I will probably house rule it and use it in my games. It will freak my players out, if nothing else.

    That said, Trapsmith sounds like a great lead in - Trapsmith 3/Ur-Priest 2 would qualify for Geomancer, and then ten levels would be exactly enough to max out both Trapsmith and Ur-Priest casting. Very nice.
    That was the idea. But one thing I could not justify with it was that I could get more spells of the same level and higher attack bonus with Duskblade. I just couldn't come up with a good non-caster for the first five levels that would meet all requirements and do something cool.
    Last edited by Hunter Killer; 2013-01-21 at 12:08 AM.
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  18. - Top - End - #198
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    My entry in case it matters. Sha'ír/Shadowcaster/Geomancer/Noctumancer.

    Used interpretation of Spell Versatility to cast spells using mystery parameters, voiding component costs and other fun. Focused on utility. Desert themed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin
    Huriyah

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    A nomadic mystic, traversing the wastes, communing with spirits and wielding unspeakable power. Maybe she was a queen driven into exile, or perhaps an orphan given instruction by a learned Sha'ir. Who knows? Such distinctions are largely campaign dependant, but probably best left a mystery.

    As Huriyah grows in power and experience, the demands she can make of the Jinn increase in scale and scope, she even possesses the ability to act without their intervention or blessings, tapping into a darkness that is older than the elements. Such a power is not held without consequence, as it will almost certainly drive her mad.

    Leeching the raw power of the elements from the land itself, warps her body and mind. It twists her visage into a caricature of the numerous deinizens of the wastes she calls home, even as she warps the very nature of magic to her will.


    Overview:

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    This character is about all about utility and versatility. Any sorcerer/wizard spell is only minutes away at most. Think about that for a moment. Any book you have access to is ripe for the plunder. Sure, you gain access to some nifty divine spells, but let's not be greedy.

    9th level casting comes online at 18th level (Sha'ir known spells are a level behind). See below for more details.

    Human female, Neutral alignment. 32 point attributes. Advance Charisma every 4 levels. Base attributes at 1st level below.
    Str: 8 Dex: 12 Con: 12 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 18

    Sources: PHB, DMG, Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Dragon Compendium, DMG2, ToM, Sandstorm.

    Huriyah
    {table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

    1st|Sha'ir 1|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Bluff: +2, Concentration: +2, Diplomacy: +4, Know Arcana: + 4, Know Nature: +4, Sense Motive: +2, Spellcraft: +2, Use Magic Device: +2|Apprentice (Spellcaster), Versatile Spellcaster|Summon Gen Familiar

    2nd|Sha'ir 2|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Bluff: +3, Concentration: +2, Diplomacy: +5, Know Arcana: +5, Know Nature: +5, Sense Motive: +3, Spellcraft: +2, Use Magic Device: +2|-|-

    3rd|Shadowcaster 1|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +5
    |Bluff: +3, Concentration: +2, Diplomacy: +5, Know Arcana: +6, Know Nature: +6, Sense Motive: +3, Spellcraft: +5, Use Magic Device: +2|Heighten Spell|Fundamentals of Shadow, Apprentice Mysteries

    4th|Geomancer 1|
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +0
    |
    +7
    |Bluff: +4 CC, Concentration: +2, Diplomacy: +7, Know Arcana: +6, Know Nature: +6, Sense Motive: +3, Spellcraft: +7, Use Magic Device: +3|-|Drift 1, Spell Versatility 0

    5th|Geomancer 2|
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +0
    |
    +8
    |Bluff: +5 CC, Concentration: +2, Diplomacy: +8, Know Arcana: +6, Know Nature: +6, Sense Motive: +4 CC, Spellcraft: +8, Use Magic Device: +4|-|Drift 1, Spell Versatility 1, Ley Lines +1

    6th|Geomancer 3|
    +3
    |
    +5
    |
    +1
    |
    +8
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +5, Diplomacy: +9, Know Arcana: +6, Know Nature: +6, Sense Motive: +5 CC, Spellcraft: +9, Use Magic Device: +4|Arcane Preperation|Drift 2, Spell Versatility 2

    7th|Noctumancer 1|
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +1
    |
    +10
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +6, Diplomacy: +10 CC, Know Arcana: +6, Know Nature: +6, Know Planes: +1, Sense Motive: +5, Spellcraft: +10, Use Magic Device: +4|-|Capture Magic's Shadow

    8th|Geomancer 4|
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +1
    |
    +11
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +8, Diplomacy: +11, Know Arcana: +6, Know Local +1 CC, Know Nature: +6, Know Planes: +1, Sense Motive: +5, Spellcraft: +11, Use Magic Device: +5|-|Drift 2, Spell Versatility 3

    9th|Geomancer 5|
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +1
    |
    +11
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +10, Diplomacy: +12, Know Arcana: +6, Know Local +2 CC, Know Nature: +6, Know Planes: +1, Sense Motive: +5, Spellcraft: +12, Use Magic Device: +6|Still Mystery|Drift 3, Spell Versatility 4

    10th|Geomancer 6|
    +5
    |
    +9
    |
    +2
    |
    +12
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +12, Diplomacy: +13, Know Arcana: +6, Know Local +3 CC, Know Nature: +6, Know Planes: +1, Sense Motive: +5, Spellcraft: +13, Use Magic Device: +7|-|Drift 3, Spell Versatility 5, Ley Lines +2

    11th|Noctumancer 2|
    +6
    |
    +10
    |
    +2
    |
    +13
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +14, Diplomacy: +14 CC, Know Arcana: +6, Know Local +3, Know Nature: +6, Know Planes: +1, Sense Motive: +5, Spellcraft: +14, Use Magic Device: +7|-|Innate Counterspell 1/day

    12th|Geomancer 7|
    +7
    |
    +10
    |
    +2
    |
    +13
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +15, Diplomacy: +15, Know Arcana: +6, Know Local +4 CC, Know Nature: +6, Know Planes: +1, Sense Motive: +5, Spellcraft: +15, Use Magic Device: +9|Shadow Familiar|Drift 4, Spell Versatility 6

    13th|Noctumancer 3|
    +7
    |
    +10
    |
    +3
    |
    +13
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +16, Diplomacy: +16 CC, Know Arcana: +6, Know Local +4, Know Nature: +6, Know Planes: +1, Sense Motive: +5, Spellcraft: +16, Use Magic Device: +10|-|-

    14th|Geomancer 8|
    +8
    |
    +11
    |
    +3
    |
    +14
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +17, Diplomacy: +17, Know Arcana: +6, Know Local +5 CC, Know Nature: +6, Know Planes: +1, Sense Motive: +5, Spellcraft: +17, Use Magic Device: +12|-|Drift 4, Spell Versatility 7

    15th|Noctumancer 4|
    +9
    |
    +12
    |
    +3
    |
    +15
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +18, Diplomacy: +18 CC, Know Arcana: +6, Know Local +5, Know Nature: +6, Know Planes: +1, Sense Motive: +5, Spellcraft: +18, Use Magic Device: +13|Priest of the Waste|-

    16th|Geomancer 9|
    +9
    |
    +12
    |
    +4
    |
    +15
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +19, Diplomacy: +19, Know Arcana: +6, Know Local +5, Know Nature: +6, Know Planes: +1, Sense Motive: +5, Spellcraft: +19, Use Magic Device: +17|-|Drift 5, Spell Versatility 8

    17th|Noctumancer 5|
    +9
    |
    +12
    |
    +4
    |
    +15
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +20, Diplomacy: +20 CC, Know Arcana: +6, Know Local +5, Know Nature: +6, Know Planes: +1, Sense Motive: +5, Spellcraft: +20, Use Magic Device: +18|-|Innate Counterspell 2/day

    18th|Geomancer 10|
    +10
    |
    +13
    |
    +4
    |
    +16
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +21, Diplomacy: +21, Know Arcana: +7, Know Local +5, Know Nature: +6, Know Planes: +1, Sense Motive: +5, Spellcraft: +21, Use Magic Device: +21|Drift Magic|Drift 5, Spell Versatility 9, Ley Lines +3

    19th|Noctumancer 6|
    +11
    |
    +14
    |
    +5
    |
    +17
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +22, Diplomacy: +22 CC, Know Arcana: +7, Know Local +5, Know Nature: +6, Know Planes: +1, Sense Motive: +5, Spellcraft: +22, Use Magic Device: +22|-|Eldritch Disruption, Initiate Mysteries.

    20th|Noctumancer 7|
    +11
    |
    +14
    |
    +5
    |
    +17
    |Bluff: +5, Concentration: +23, Diplomacy: +23 CC, Know Arcana: +7, Know Local +5, Know Nature: +6, Know Planes: +1, Sense Motive: +5, Spellcraft: +23, Use Magic Device: +23|-|Innate Counterspell (Retain Power)[/table]


    Sha'ir Spells Known
    {table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

    1st|5|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    2nd|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    3rd|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    4th|6|5|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    5th|7|5|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    6th|7|6|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    7th|8|6|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-

    8th|8|7|4|3|-|-|-|-|-|-

    9th|9|7|4|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

    10th|9|8|5|4|3|-|-|-|-|-

    11th|9|8|5|4|3|2|-|-|-|-

    12th|9|9|6|5|4|3|-|-|-|-

    13th|9|9|6|5|4|3|2|-|-|-

    14th|9|10|7|6|5|4|3|-|-|-

    15th|9|10|7|6|5|4|3|2|-|-

    16th|9|10|8|7|6|5|4|3|-|-

    17th|9|10|8|7|6|5|4|3|2|-

    18th|9|10|9|8|7|6|5|4|3|-

    19th|9|10|9|8|7|6|5|4|3|2

    20th|9|10|9|9|8|7|6|5|4|3[/table]

    Mysteries Known
    {table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

    1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    3rd|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    4th|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

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    Skills:

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    Only base ranks are included in the table above. 2 bonus ranks are gained from the apprentice feat. Totals assume no major increase to intelligence. Cross class ranks are noted at level of purchase.


    Diplomacy: Most important skill. Required for spell retrieval. Attempt to gain synergy bonuses if you can as well as anything else to boost these checks, as your spellcasting depends on it. Incedentally, raising diplomacy ridiculously high allows this character to be the party face.

    Concentration, Knowledges, Spellcraft: Spellcasters are expected to put ranks into these skills.

    Use Magic Device: Just because. It's not like this character needs to invest in weapons and armor, so they may as well collect magical trinkets in order to exploit them. Or for her Familiar to exploit...

    Other skills: Just utility stuff. No real focus here.



    Feats:

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    DMG 2: Apprentice (Spellcaster). Grant Knowledge Nature and UMD as class skills. Grants an extra Sha'ir spell known, improves the ability to replace known spells. Also grants the ability to spontaneously cast a known divine spell (by sacrificing a successfully retrieved spell, or a spell prepared via other means). Other benefits as level increases, but the quasi-leadership component of Mentor is not the focus of this build. Can grant the ability to spontaneously cast Miracle at level 19, which is simply awesome longevity for a 1st level feat.

    Races of the Dragon: Versatile Spellcaster. Grant the ability to cast known spells at a premium cost, by sacrificing lower level spells. Can be used in conjunction with Heighten Spell to qualify for Geomancer.

    Complete Arcane: Arcane Preperation. Can prepare known spells ahead of time instead of waiting for Gen Familliar to retrieve them. Spells prepared this way do not dissipate and remain in the relevant spell slot until cast.

    ToM: Still Mystery. Removes somatic component from mysteries.

    ToM: Shadow Familliar: Upgrades Gen Familiar with Dark Creature template. Familiar benefits are now determined according to levels in shadowcasting and arcane classes (Character level, in this case). A Fire Gen benefits the most from the cold resistance of this template.

    Sandstorm: Priest of the Waste. Qualifies due to Sha'ir domain access. Grants a number of 'spontaneous' utility and survival spells, granted by sacrificing prepared spells.

    Sandstorm: Drift Magic: Further increases CL of certain spells in desert/waste terrain...Can forge a link to the waste by carrying a jar of sand and expending a move action. Whether this is sufficient to trigger Ley Lines is worth debating with your DM about.




    Class Stuff:

    Spoiler
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    Sha'ir spells retrieved by the Gen Familliar are retained for only 2 hours, maximum. This is not a problem if you're expecting a short work day, though it possibly limits the number of Divine spells on hand at any time. Leaving slots open allow for retrieval or preperation as the circumstances dictate, should be the typical modus opperandi.

    I'm not going to put down Sha' ir spells known. 70-odd picks are not going to ilustrate the strength of the SI. Such choices are campaign dependant, in any event. You can bet that spells with difficult to obtain or costly components would make the list, as well as powerful staples; Animate Dead, Simulacrum, Forcecage, CoP, Miracle, etc. A basic combat roster would also be appropriate, so as to have access to those spells when unprepared. Cherry picking the best divine spells of each level will not make reteiving them any faster, but they will be eligable for Versatile Spellcaster and Arcane Preperation.

    Sha'ir qualifies for Geomancer on the merits of it's own spellcasting. The only impediment to access is the knowledge nature skill, obtained via the Apprentice feat.

    Shadowcasting. Only minor shadowcasting abilities are gained, with a focus on the utility of the Ebon Whispers then Eyes of Darkness paths, with the basic mysteries of Black Magic, then Dark Reflections learned at later levels.

    Spell Versatility 2 is used to qualify for Noctumancer; 2nd level spells can be cast as 2nd level mysteries.

    Drift abilities in order obtained:
    Touch causes flowers to wilt.
    Cats Tail.
    Comely as a Dryad (+4 diplomacy aids in spell retrieval)
    Blood flows like tree sap. (Progessive damage on a caster is annoying).
    Spin a Web like a spider. A trapdoor spider. Camping and spell prep/retrieval security.
    Thorns. Like a cactus or desert bush.
    Boars Ferocity. Interacts nicely with the Delay Death spell.
    Scent. Utility.
    Earthworms Senses. Tremorsense is a thematic choice.
    Vulture Wings. Fly speed 60 as an extraordinary ability, as opposed to spellcasting. Utility.

    Ley Lines: Desert Terrain is this character's focus.

    Noctumancer Stuff: Can gain a CL boost by dispelling spells or mysteries, gains the ability to reduce CL or SCL as a supernatural attack and also the ability to cast reactive counterspells a few times per day (and recover spells or mysteries by doing so). All nice anti-caster abilities.


    Spell Versatility:

    Spoiler
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    This gets it's own section because it is the real focus of this character. The ability to mix and match spellcasting parameters for maximum advantage...The most immediate advantage is caster level.

    Geomancer progression on this character has been deliberately staggered, due to the fact that Spell Versatility 9 (for example), is simply not needed before the character is capable of casting 9th level spells.

    Arcane spells: Nothing special here. Casting certain divine spells as Arcane spells allows a Sha'ir to bypass certain alignment restrictions on divine spells.

    Divine spells: Casting spells or mysteries as divine spells should allow armoured casting, this becomes less relevant when Still Mystery is acquired.

    Mysteries: Function as spells, spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities. Mysteries that function as spells possess only Somatic components (which can be removed), typically have a standard action casting time and are harder to identify and dispel/counterspell.

    While mysteries can't normally benefit from metamagic, arcane or divine spells can. A Sha'ir is capable of applying metamagic to spells without increasing casting times. Metamagic is not a focus of this build, but theoretically spells can be treated as mysteries (or vice versa) and still benefit from metamagic and metashadow rods due to the Versatile Spellcasting ability.

    To sum up; Component free spellcasting. Standard action cast times (or less). Can use Sha'ir CL for all spellcasting. More difficult to dispel (-4CL) and more difficult (impossible in most cases) to identify the spell being cast (-4 spellcraft, only the effect can be observed).


    What remains unclear:

    Are Sha'ir spells going to benefit from the ability to cast spells as spell like or supernatural abilities? Technically spells of levels 1-3 can be cast as apprentice mysteries, 4-6 as initiate mysteries and 7-9 as master mysteries. Does this mean spells up to 3rd level can be cast as supernatural abilities, up to 6th level as spell-like abilities? This certainly appears to be the case as this type of shadowcasting progression is explicitly advanced by prestige classes, as the character gains the ability to *cast* higher level mysteries, as opposed to *knowing* higher level mysteries. I can't help but think I have missed something, though. It's worth debating with your DM.

    XP and special components: Mysteries require only somatic components (which can be removed). Does this mean the XP component of spells like Limited Wish can be ignored? What about the corruption/sacrifice cost of corrupt or sanctified spells? I certainly hope these components can be ignored, and I would certainly argue that they could be, but I honestly can't state with certainty that this is explicitly the case. Definately worth arguing with your DM over.

    Fun fact: This character can silently drop an Apocalypse From The Sky regardless of what the DM says, so you can probably rely on petty extorion to get your way, assuming the DM is attached to the campaign setting.




    Variations:

    Spoiler
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    A non-human racial choice probably can't qualify for early entry, unless Flaws are used. Templates are a possibility, so long as LA buy-off is available. Half Janni would be thematic. A Necropolitan would also be thematic for a version of this character focusing on Dread Warriors and other expensive undead.

    Adding additional casting classes will probably hurt you without some clever thurging. You could probably drop most of the Noctumancer levels and delay 9th level spellcasting until 19th level, put in another base class and use a different Theurge class, but you're not going to achieve anything remotely like a triple threat status. The best you will achieve is adding more options for Spell Versatility to take advantage of while focusing on Sha'ir.

  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    The other one was favored soul 4 / Geomancer 7 / Spellguard of Silverymoon 4 / Warweaver 5

    Combining the ACF of the favored soul that grants temporary bonus hit points to the favored soul spells, the geomancer ability to make those spells count as arcane, the spellguard ability to cast spells with a personal range that grant hit points with a range of touch and the warweaver ability to cast touch spells at the whole party at once.

    So the point was buffing everyone at once with the cheesy personal buffs of the cleric. Problem though that feats were REALLY tight and it required a specific reading of spell versatility.
    Deity's Favor, Spell Guard, Quiescent Weaving, Eldritch Tapestry, Enlarged Tapestry and Spell Versatility all combo together BEAUTIFULLY. By raw they all compound onto each other and work seamlessly.

    And with Alternate Source spell from dragon magazine or with Southern Magician feat, the prequisites can be met for all these classes using only Favored Soul casting.

    However, the problem with the build is that Spellguard of Silverymoon and War Weaver only advance arcane casting classes, and none of its abilities change Favored soul into an arcane casting class, therefore these 9 lvls do not advance anything.

    For this build to work you would have to dip at least 1 lvl into an arcane casting class, and then advance that class with spellguard of silverymoon and War weaver. This mandatory alteration kind of hodge podges your casting and essentially mucks up the build because the whole point is to get into the juicy cleric personal spells.

    It is still possible to work out these large kinks and salvage this build, and if you had done so I would of definitely given you a huge honorable mention vote, because the idea of the combination of those class abilities is top notch.

    P.S. My favorite trick with Spellguard of Silverymoon is as follows:
    Spellguard's ability spellguard says it works on a "character". In D&D we have 3 types of characters- P.C.'s; N.P.C.'s; and M.C.'s (Monster characters). Each of these terms are referenced several times during the rules. As a result, Spellguard can pretty much target anybody.

    Tenser's Transformation....heuhueheuhe.... meets the criteria for a "Defensive spell". Spectral hand or reach spell can give u a little range on this trick. But essentially you can use this to rob an enemy of his spellcasting in exchange for some worthless melee enhancements..uheuheuehueh.
    Last edited by Gotterdammerung; 2013-01-21 at 05:40 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    My entry in case it matters. Sha'ír/Shadowcaster/Geomancer/Noctumancer.

    Used interpretation of Spell Versatility to cast spells using mystery parameters, voiding component costs and other fun. Focused on utility. Desert themed.
    Huri Kane might have been a pretty good name for that build if you went with Raptoran for the race and focused on wind-orientated magic.
    Illumian Dread Necromancer Lich avatar by Tinymushroom.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodgruve View Post
    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...

    Blood~

  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung View Post
    However, the problem with the build is that Spellguard of Silverymoon and War Weaver only advance arcane casting classes, and none of its abilities change Favored soul into an arcane casting class, therefore these 9 lvls do not advance anything.
    That was my biggest issue with spell versatility if you read it as making the favored soul spells count as arcane 24h then you could argue that the favored soul spells are arcane, and from there there would only be a step to: favored soul grants spells, favored soul spells are arcane then favored soul grants arcane spells. Imho, if that reading doesn't fling, well, expecting to be able to give arcane spell casting to the favored soul via feats was probably worse.

    Of course this relies on a really specific reading of spell versatility and it wouldn't really work. That, and the huge feat investment to meet prerequisites and be viable when not using the trick was what at the end kept me from using the build. I might play it in gestalt, someday though
    Last edited by thethird; 2013-01-21 at 05:52 AM.
    Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Spell Versatility only affects the parameters at the time of casting.

    Hence, although you could cast Favoured Soul spells as Arcane, you would not receive any benefits from prior to time of casting.

    This causes problems for Southern Magician, say

    Spoiler
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    No; Spell Versatility only affects the parameters at the time of casting.

    Hence, although you could cast Favoured Soul spells as Arcane, you would not receive any benefits from prior to time of casting.

    However; Southern Magician -

    Once per day per two spellcaster levels, you can cast a divine spell as an arcane spell, or vice versa. This enables you to bypass arcane spell failure due to armor, or gain additional benefit from spell that functions differently for a divine caster instead of an arcane caster, such as true seeing or magic weapon. Spells changed with this feat are often confusing to whose who haven't studied Mulan magic. Spellcasters who don't have this feat suffer a -4 penalty on attempts to counterspell or dispel this spell, and they must succeed at a caster level check (DC 11 + spell level) to detect the spell with detect magic. The actual source of the spell's power doesn't change, nor does its means of preparation. You are merely weaving the strands of magic together in an unconventional way that makes the spell behave somewhat differently.
    That satisfies entry requirements.

    However, spell versatility;

    When he casts them, however, he can mix or match spellcasting parameters from any of his classes to gain the maximum possible advantage for any spell with a spell level equal to or less than his spell versatility score.
    It specifies classes.

    So, while you would satisfy entry, outside of using Southern Magician to cast Caster Level/2 spells/day as Divine or Arcane, you would still only be able to cast as a Favoured Soul.
    Last edited by Vaz; 2013-01-21 at 06:46 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    That was my biggest issue with spell versatility if you read it as making the favored soul spells count as arcane 24h then you could argue that the favored soul spells are arcane, and from there there would only be a step to: favored soul grants spells, favored soul spells are arcane then favored soul grants arcane spells. Imho, if that reading doesn't fling, well, expecting to be able to give arcane spell casting to the favored soul via feats was probably worse.

    Of course this relies on a really specific reading of spell versatility and it wouldn't really work. That, and the huge feat investment to meet prerequisites and be viable when not using the trick was what at the end kept me from using the build. I might play it in gestalt, someday though
    Unfortunately there is no way to interpret Spell versatility that way. It very clearly works only at the time of casting the spell. And even if it did work that way you can only mix the parameters of classes you possess. You don't have any arcane classes on the build so you wouldn't be able to mix that into your parameters.

    It is arguable that Spell versatility can't change a divine spell into an arcane spell or vice versa. The support for this argument lies in the examples. It doesn't say something like "change your arcane spells into divine spells so that you can ignore arcane spell failure." It simply says you can ignore arcane spell failure on your arcane spells because you could ignore it on your divine spells. This would imply that divine and arcane are sources and not parameters.


    P.S. You are right about gestalt. Geomancer in general is an incredibly potent addition to any gestalt campaing and is often overlooked. The possibilities are nearly endless and can get very impressive.
    Last edited by Gotterdammerung; 2013-01-21 at 06:41 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Wow, the build I couldn't find adequate inspiration to finish would've been unique:

    Barbarian 3/Duskblade 3/Chapion of Gwynharwyf 3/Suel Arcanamach 2/Geomancer 9.

    It has a decent BAB, the ability to cast spells in a rage... and SADly is ALL THE SAD.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
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    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    My entry in case it matters. Sha'ír/Shadowcaster/Geomancer/Noctumancer.

    Used interpretation of Spell Versatility to cast spells using mystery parameters, voiding component costs and other fun. Focused on utility. Desert themed.
    I had an idea along the same lines, but it'd only apply to your highest 'three' levels of mysteries - they count as SLAs/Su after that, and then do not qualify for it.

    I was going Conjurer/Shadowcaster base, though, for Abrupt Jaunt (with Southern Magician).

  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    They would be prepared as spells and then could be cast using Mystery parameters, which would then alter them to (sp) or (su).

    Even if you don't agree with that interpretation, the ability to cast your 3 highest levels of spells sans components is noteworthy. Considering that components become substantially more expensive and/or esoteric as the level of the spell increases.

  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    That moment when you realise you sent in the completely wrong build...

    Anyway you can answer your critique with "yeah, here is my actual build"?

    Urgh f##################!!!!!!!!

  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    I should have posted my other build but ran out of time...
    It wasn't a full caster build, and was a bit strange, using things I'm not really up on. but basically it was this

    Totemist 2>Sha'ir 1> Avenging Druid 1 > Black Blood Cultist 10 > Geomancer 8

    It basically pounced on you with so many natural attacks, that all instigated grapple checks and for every hit, you did damage with all natural attacks for free (every time)

    plus the grapple went off, and you could choke hold a grappled creature in to unconsciousness 1-3 rounds, then coup de grâce.

    oh and had some spell casting as a 9th level Sha'ir, 1st level druid

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    I didn't have time to finish it off, sadly, but I was going to do a Savage Bard 7/Ur-Priest 2/Geo 1/Sublime Chord 1/Geo 9, advancing both Ur/SC intermittently (So 5 levels per class).

    His whole schtick would have been double 7ths (From the Wizard/Cleric lists!), using drifts to keep him out of the firing line and using his spells to end fights quickly, since he didn't have many spells per day.
    Open the lid and snatch a homebrewed treat from Cookie's Jar

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    Chaotic neutral. Might rob you blind. Might save your life. Might do both.

  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

    Quote Originally Posted by WinWin View Post
    They would be prepared as spells and then could be cast using Mystery parameters, which would then alter them to (sp) or (su).

    Even if you don't agree with that interpretation, the ability to cast your 3 highest levels of spells sans components is noteworthy. Considering that components become substantially more expensive and/or esoteric as the level of the spell increases.
    See, that's where I stopped. Once you get initiate mysteries, your apprentice mysteries stop functioning as spells, rendering them illegal as Spell Versatility parameters.

    That's assuming that a DM would even let you do it in the first place - they're technically mysteries at all levels, even if they do function as spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by 8wGremlin View Post
    I should have posted my other build but ran out of time...
    It wasn't a full caster build, and was a bit strange, using things I'm not really up on. but basically it was this

    Totemist 2>Sha'ir 1> Avenging Druid 1 > Black Blood Cultist 10 > Geomancer 8

    It basically pounced on you with so many natural attacks, that all instigated grapple checks and for every hit, you did damage with all natural attacks for free (every time)

    plus the grapple went off, and you could choke hold a grappled creature in to unconsciousness 1-3 rounds, then coup de grâce.

    oh and had some spell casting as a 9th level Sha'ir, 1st level druid
    ...and was an ECL 22 character?

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