Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI

[WinWin]

See, that's where I stopped. Once you get initiate mysteries, your apprentice mysteries stop functioning as spells, rendering them illegal as Spell Versatility parameters.

That's assuming that a DM would even let you do it in the first place - they're technically mysteries at all levels, even if they do function as spells.

Mysteries are spells. At higher level, they also become (sp) at (su), but mysteries never stop being spells.

Shadowcaster is a spellcasting class. Geomancer allows Spell Versatility to combine paramaters from their spellcasting classes, when those spells are cast.

A Shadow Evocation cast using Spell Versatility, remains a spell up until the point it is cast. When it it cast, it can mix and match the parameters from the Geomancers spellcasting classes for maximum benefit. Once that spell is cast, issues of elligablity are redundant, because it has already been cast.

Now, if you wanted to say that a high level Shadowcaster could not cast their (su) or (sp) mysteries through Spell Versatility, I would agree with you. However, that was not what my (non) entry was specced for.

[123456789blaaa]

Mysteries are spells. At higher level, they also become (sp) at (su), but mysteries never stop being spells.

Shadowcaster is a spellcasting class. Geomancer allows Spell Versatility to combine paramaters from their spellcasting classes, when those spells are cast.

A Shadow Evocation cast using Spell Versatility, remains a spell up until the point it is cast. When it it cast, it can mix and match the parameters from the Geomancers spellcasting classes for maximum benefit. Once that spell is cast, issues of elligablity are redundant, because it has already been cast.

Now, if you wanted to say that a high level Shadowcaster could not cast their (su) or (sp) mysteries through Spell Versatility, I would agree with you. However, that was not what my (non) entry was specced for.

From ToM page 112:

You do not cast spells as other classes do, but instead invoke mystical secrets called mysteries

Mysteries are not spells. Some are cast as though they are spells but they aren't actually spells.

[8wGremlin]

...and was an ECL 22 character?

sorry got carried away with the drift, was geomancer 6
And 7th level casting

[WinWin]

Mysteries are not spells. Some are cast as though they are spells but they aren't actually spells.

Mysteries function as spells, spell like abilities or supernatural abilities, depending on the category of the path and the knowledge of the mystery user

Mysteries function as spells. Arcane spells to be specific. Shadowcasters are also spellcasters. How about that?

[123456789blaaa]

Mysteries function as spells. Arcane spells to be specific. Shadowcasters are also spellcasters. How about that?

You specifically said:

Mysteries are spells. At higher level, they also become (sp) at (su), but mysteries never stop being spells.

You did not say that they functioned as spells which was what I was saying.

Can I have a quote that says shadowcasters are spellcasters?. I can't find any and this quote from ToM:

Unlike spellcasters, you don’t get bonus mysteries for a high ability score.

Seperates the two.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You specifically said:



You did not say that they functioned as spells which was what I was saying.

Can I have a quote that says shadowcasters are spellcasters?. I can't find any and this quote from ToM:



Seperates the two.

Check the section on prestige classes. There's a note or side-bar there (AFB) that says that for the purpose of multiclassing into a prestige class that progresses spellcasting they count as spellcasters. I don't remember the exact details though.

[Kuulvheysoon]

From ToM page 112:

You do not cast spells as other classes do, but instead invoke mystical secrets called mysteries

Mysteries are not spells. Some are cast as though they are spells but they aren't actually spells.

WinWin, this phrase is probably the major reason I gave up on my build.

Check the section on prestige classes. There's a note or side-bar there (AFB) that says that for the purpose of multiclassing into a prestige class that progresses spellcasting they count as spellcasters. I don't remember the exact details though.

It mentions that mysteries count as spells of X level if the PrC requires X level spells. On the other hand, it never once refers to them as spellcasters. Casters (or mystery-caster), yes, but not spellcasters.

Personally, I'm treating them like invocation users - sorta spellcasters, but at the same time, not spellcasters.

[WinWin]

page 111, the Shadowcaster class description refers to Shadowcasters as spellcasters.

page 117, again refers to shadowcasters as spellcasters.

Mysteries explicitly function as arcane spells, unless modified by class features. Logically, this makes them spellcasters.

It does not matter that their spellcasting system has a funny name and wierd interations with other forms of spellcasting. When they cast spells, they follow all of the rules for casting spells with a few particular exeptions, that can subsequently be exploited by a Geomancers Spell Versatility.

[Kuulvheysoon]

page 111, the Shadowcaster class description refers to Shadowcasters as spellcasters.

...where? I see two places that it implies that they're spellcasters ("...than other spellcasters")

page 117, again refers to shadowcasters as spellcasters.

I honestly can't find where you see this. Mind pointing it out?

Mysteries explicitly function as arcane spells, unless modified by class features. Logically, this makes them spellcasters.

It specifically calls them out as functioning as arcane spells. This does not mean that they are arcane spells. Directly under the Mysteries and Paths section of the class description;

You do not cast spells as other classes do, but instead invoke mystical secrets called mysteries.

Which one should take precedence - the one where it says they function as arcane spells, or where they explicitly call them out as not-spells?

[WinWin]

Which one should take precedence - the one where it says they function as arcane spells, or where they explicitly call them out as not-spells?

It makes no such expicit reference. It simply states that "Shadowcasters do not cast spells as other classes do".

It means, "Shadowcasters cast their spells differently to other spellcasters", not "Shadowcasters do not cast spells". Because, shadowcasters do actually cast spells and your interpretation would make absolutely no sense, when contexualised by the actual abilities of the class.

[Vaz]

Seperates the two.

Neither does a bard or Shugenja IIRC.

In regards to the comment referring to casting spells but invoking mysteries, you invoke mysteries which are arcane spells.

Unfortunately for the purposes of meeting geomancer prereqs you need to cast spells, and invoking is not casting, similar to having a l2 scroll would not allow you to meet prereq due to being completion, not cast.

[WinWin]

You do not invoke mysteries.

Mysteries are cast. When a mystery is a spell, you're casting a spell. You follow all of the rules for casting a spell. When it is a spell like ability, you're casting a spell-like ability, and following all of the rules for spell-like abilities, and so on.

Regardless, my (non) entry did not use Shadowcaster to qualify for Geomancer. It used Sha'ir. I never claimed you could enter Geomancer using Shadowcaster.

[Vaz]

I really think you've convinced yourself here.

You invoke mysteries which work like arcane spells. Nothing is "cast", and neither do you have the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells.

In regards to illegality, spare a thought for Xian Ha Feng (Neraph Wu Jen/Incantatrix base); it cannot enter Incantatrix due to not being able to cast 3rd level spells.

However, it is easy enough to bring in geomancer 1 at 8th level and delay incantatrix entry by 1. And as they ran out of time I think that was what was intended. Especially as the sweet spot is clearly ECL20, it has little effect outside of delaying metamagic effect until 11th rather than 10th.

[123456789blaaa]

You do not invoke mysteries.

Mysteries are cast. When a mystery is a spell, you're casting a spell. You follow all of the rules for casting a spell. When it is a spell like ability, you're casting a spell-like ability, and following all of the rules for spell-like abilities, and so on.

Regardless, my (non) entry did not use Shadowcaster to qualify for Geomancer. It used Sha'ir. I never claimed you could enter Geomancer using Shadowcaster.

...but you said:

Mysteries are spells. At higher level, they also become (sp) at (su), but mysteries never stop being spells.

Really, I wasn't arguring about the interpretation in the first quote above. It's debatable but a reasonable interpretation. What I was arguing was the second quote above.

[Vaz]

The 2nd is a long time coming. =(.

[Venger]

The 2nd is a long time coming. =(.

with 17 theurges to taste, it's the only way we'll get even one judging.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You do not invoke mysteries.

Mysteries are cast. When a mystery is a spell, you're casting a spell. You follow all of the rules for casting a spell. When it is a spell like ability, you're casting a spell-like ability, and following all of the rules for spell-like abilities, and so on.

I can see that we're not going to change each other's mind on this mystery =/= spells issue.

Agree to disagree?

[Amphetryon]

Curmudgeon's 2cp on Mysteries and Spell Versatility, fwiw:

On whether the trick in this link of using Geomancer's Spell Versatility to cast spells as Shadowcaster mysteries is valid.

I understand if you would rather abstain.

Thanks.

The build seems to be invalid on multiple counts.

Used interpretation of Spell Versatility to cast spells using mystery parameters, voiding component costs and other fun.
...
Metamagic is not a focus of this build, but theoretically spells can be treated as mysteries (or vice versa) and still benefit from metamagic and metashadow rods due to the Versatile Spellcasting ability.

The highlighted part is bogus. Mysteries can function as spells, but I see nothing in the Shadowcaster class abilities that lets this work the other way around. And the Geomancer Spell Versatility is still exclusive to spells; "he can mix or match spellcasting parameters from any of his classes". Even the Adaptation section of the class description (which would require specific DM approval rather than being taken as a given) is about being "more specific" with regard to spellcasting (Complete Divine, page 41).

Since that double rules violation (spells functioning as mysteries, and Spell Versatility working with mysteries instead of just spells) makes pretty much everything fall apart, I stopped checking for further errors.

[OMG PONIES]

I can see that we're not going to change each other's mind on this mystery =/= spells issue.

Agree to disagree?

Aha, light at the end of the tunnel! I know it's verboten here on the Internet, but can I suggest that both sides could be correct? From where I stand, the problem is in unclear wording which can be interpreted either way.

Shadowcasters do not cast spells as other classes do

could mean "Shadowcasters cast spells in a way unique from other classes," or it could mean "Other classes cast spells; shadowcasters do not." Am I crazy, or is either way acceptable?

[Vaz]

You do not cast spells as other classes do, but instead invoke mystical secrets called mysteries

While mysteries may well be spells, you "invoke" mysteries.

[Gotterdammerung]

Aha, light at the end of the tunnel! I know it's verboten here on the Internet, but can I suggest that both sides could be correct? From where I stand, the problem is in unclear wording which can be interpreted either way.



could mean "Shadowcasters cast spells in a way unique from other classes," or it could mean "Other classes cast spells; shadowcasters do not." Am I crazy, or is either way acceptable?

Your kind of right but really the whole thing is a big mess.

on page 111 it says the shadowcaster is "less versatile than other spellcasters." This defines shadowcasters as spellcasters.

it goes on to say "like most spell users, her role depends largely on the magic she chooses."

It then immediately contradicts itself on page 112 by saying "You do not cast spells, as other classes do."

It then swings back the other way again by saying "Mysteries represent thought patterns an formulae so alien that other spells seem simple in comparison." This defines mysteries as spells again....

"You cast them as though they were arcane spells."

"Whenever you cast a mystery as an arcane spell..."

"Now function as spell-like abilities" so not spells anymore...

It then says at the very very end on page 113
"Even though as a shadow caster you do not "cast spells" in the traditional sense" This implies that you DO cast spells in some sense, just not in the traditional sense, whatever that is.

So yeh, I just assume this very sheltered designer never read any of the other books or concerned himself with thoughts of how his pretty poorly designed and worded class would interact with the information that might be in them.

[Vaz]

In the interest for future Comps, can you use classes from OA in place of the Completes - i.e the Samurai, etc.

That Samurai is so different from the CW version.

[Kuulvheysoon]

In the interest for future Comps, can you use classes from OA in place of the Completes - i.e the Samurai, etc.

That Samurai is so different from the CW version.

Isn't that (and the Shugenja) the only ones affected? IIRC, the other OA classes are Sohei Rager and Shaman (completely different from the Spirit Shaman)

[Gotterdammerung]

In the interest for future Comps, can you use classes from OA in place of the Completes - i.e the Samurai, etc.

That Samurai is so different from the CW version.

Under Iron Chef rules you have to use the most current version of a class.

Beacuse samurai was reprinted in complete warrior, you have to use the complete warrior version in Iron chef.

P.S. yeh they really ruined samurai with that reprint, but oh well.

[Amphetryon]

Isn't that (and the Shugenja) the only ones affected? IIRC, the other OA classes are Sohei Rager and Shaman (completely different from the Spirit Shaman)

There's also an OA Ninja, which is different than the CAd Ninja.

OA - assuming it isn't the source for the Secret Ingredient - has always fallen into a difficult 'in-between' space for Iron Chef. If you're clear in marking that you're using the OA version, and are willing to accept that some judges may find it inelegant due to the facts that 1)the OA Class probably got remade elsewhere 2) there exists an official (but, for our purposes, off-limits) update to the OA Classes in Dragon, my instinct tells me it's been deemed okay in the past.

If someone has found a previous ruling that contradicts the above, please say so.

[BobVosh]

Aha, light at the end of the tunnel! I know it's verboten here on the Internet, but can I suggest that both sides could be correct? From where I stand, the problem is in unclear wording which can be interpreted either way.

HERESY! Burn the witch!

Also silly D&D and its grandfathering.

[OMG PONIES]

HERESY! Burn the witch!

Also silly D&D and its grandfathering.

Just build a bridge out of me.

Switching to the topic of judges, is IdleMuse still judging? Has anyone else expressed interest in doing so this round?

[Darkcouch]

I'll throw my hat in as a judge this go round. I've been a lurker for a while and it's about time I contributed.

[Gotterdammerung]

I'll throw my hat in as a judge this go round. I've been a lurker for a while and it's about time I contributed.

*clap*

I think there is like 8 days left, I wonder who else is judging.

[A_S]

IdleMuse made some promising noises back on page one.

Also, +1 to *clap*, thanks for judging, Darkcouch.