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    Qwertystop's Avatar

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    Default New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    Well, I've always been a bit underwhelmed by 3.5's Elementals. I mean, there's not much there to actually link them to the element. They've all got one ability to say "elemental" (two of which are near identical, except for where the Elemental must be to use it), but other than that they just sort of punch stuff, the only modification being that the Fire elemental burns what he punches. I decided to rectify this with Elemental variants that make elementals really made of their element - no endless-ambulatory-waterfalls here, these Water Elementals ARE their water.

    I did the Earth Emanation in another thread a long time ago, and am digging it back up and renaming it the Mounder for this project.

    Mounder
    Large Elemental (Earth)
    Hit Dice: 8d8+56 (92 hp)
    Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares); Climb 20 ft. ; Burrow 25 ft.
    Initiative: -1
    Armor Class: 18 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +10 Natural), touch 8, flat-footed 18
    BAB/Grapple: +6/+16
    Attack: Slam +9 melee (2d8+5)
    Full Attack: 2 Slams +9 melee (2d8+5)
    Space/Reach: 10 ft./ 5 ft.
    Special Attacks: Swallow Whole
    Special Qualities:Bound to Ground, Earthglide, Size Change, Thin Earth
    Saves: Fort +13, Ref +1, Will +2
    Abilities: Str 20, Dex 8, Con 24, Int 4, Wis 10, Cha 8
    Skills: Climb +8, Listen +6, Spot +5
    Feats: Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Grapple)
    Environment: Any land
    Organization: Solitary
    Challenge Rating: 4
    Treasure: Double Gems
    Alignment: Usually Lawful Neutral
    Advancement: 9-12 HD (Large), 13-24 HD (Huge), 25-36 HD (Gargantuan)

    A mounder appears to be a rough pile of compacted dirt or stone. When it moves, it moves like a wave, dirt lowering in back and rising up in front. It has an internal body cavity, in which it may sometimes carry raw gems and metals it may have found.

    Combat

    A mounder attacks by jolting a spot of earth under its opponents upward, and follows up by slamming into them.

    Bound to Ground (Ex): A mounder has great difficulty leaving solid earth. If a mounder ever goes above the surface of the ground and is out of contact with an earth or stone surface, it loses all its mass. It becomes Incorporeal, its land speed is reduced by 15 feet, and it loses its other methods of movement.

    An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons).

    An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).

    An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

    An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

    An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.

    Every minute a mounder spends away from earth or stone, it gains 1 negative level. These stack, ignore immunity to negative levels, and can become permanent (removing HD) as normal (save DC 10 + HD lost). They go away if the mounder spends five minutes completely underground. If the mounder loses all its HD to this, it simply disappears.

    Earth Glide (Ex): A mounder can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing mounder flings the mounder back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

    Size Change (Ex): A mounder can change its size as a single move action per step of category changed. It cannot go above the maximum granted by its HD (See Advancement), or below Small.

    Swallow Whole (Ex): To use this ability, a mounder must succeed on a slam attack on the target. If it then succeeds on a grapple attempt against the target, the target is held inside the earth animated by the mounder. The mounder can move about normally and keep the engulfed target inside its internal cavity. Furthermore, the mounder can choose to crush anyone held inside for 1d8 points of bludgeoning and slashing damage per round.The target can attempt to escape if it deals 20 points or more of bludgeoning or acid damage to the interior of the cavity (AC 15). The mounder can only swallow creatures of sizes smaller than it. A Large mounder's cavity can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents. The cavity also holds enough air for a full load of swallowed creatures to breathe for one round. Since swallowing another creature requires the cavity to open for a short time, the air supply refreshes if another creature is swallowed or if a creature escapes.

    Thin Earth (Ex):If a mounder is above ground (touching the surface of the ground), the contiguous dirt/stone surface in a 10-foot radius from it and is treated as rough terrain as it softens slightly.
    -----------------------
    I imagine the Mounder as a swallow-and-burrow monster.
    -----------------------
    And here's the second, the one that inspired me to do all of them, the
    Aquiform
    Large Elemental (Water)
    Hit Dice: 8d8+32 (72)
    Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares); Swim 100 ft.
    Initiative: +6
    Armor Class: 20; touch 11; flat-footed 18 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +9 natural)
    Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+20
    Attack: Slam +10 melee (2d6+4)
    Full Attack: 2 slams +10 melee (2d6+4) and 2 icecuts +8 melee (1d6+2/19-20)
    Space: 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
    Special Attacks: Engulf, Improved Grab
    Special Qualities: Accumulation, Frozen Over
    Saves: Fort +10 Ref +4 Will +2
    Abilities: Str 20, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 6
    Skills: Escape Artist +11, Listen +6, Spot +5, Swim +8
    Feats: Improved Grapple (b), Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Weapon Focus: Grapple
    Environment: Water or near water
    Organization: Solitary
    Challenge Rating: 7
    Treasure: Nonstandard Art - See "Frozen Over"
    Alignment: Usually Lawful Neutral
    Advancement: 9-12 HD (Large), 13-24 HD (Huge), 25-36 HD (Gargantuan)

    Accumulation (Ex): An Aquiform in contact with a body of water at least one size category larger than it can pull in seven times its own mass in water as a standard action to increase its size category by one. In addition, an Aquiform can release seven-eighths of its mass in water from its form as a move action, decreasing its size category by one. An Aquiform which has modified its size with this ability will slowly shift back to its normal size, changing by one category per eight hours, if it does not absorb or shed water periodically to maintain its size. Shrinking back to normal size takes twice as long in cold or wet areas, and half as long in hot or dry areas; vice-versa for growing back to normal size. This ability cannot make an Aquiform smaller than Small or larger than one category above its normal size.

    Engulf (Ex): The Aquiform has the ability to engulf enemies which it gains a hold on. If the Aquiform uses the "hold" option of Improved Grab, it may elect to engulf the enemy instead of holding it. In this case, the Aquiform does not lose the use of the Slam attack used to initiate the grapple. An engulfed creature must make a Swim check that beats the aquiform's Grapple modifier by 5 or more to escape, and must hold its breath to avoid drowning. A successful escape provokes an Attack of Opportunity from the aquiform. A Large aquiform can engulf 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents; these limits shift with the Aquiform's size.

    Icecut (Ex): As a swift action, an aquiform can freeze shards of ice to use as secondary natural weapons that cause 1d6 points of piercing or slashing damage and score a critical hit on 19-20. Complete immersion in water causes these weapons to be lost, as the ice floats.

    Frozen Over (Ex): An Aquiform can also freeze itself defensively. This ability has two options. First, it can freeze its entire body partially into a slush as a standard action. This increases its natural armor by 5. Alternately, the Aquiform can freeze a hard shell over itself as a full-round action. This gives it DR 4/bludgeoning and magic (for advanced Aquiforms, DR is equal to half its HD, rounded down). When using either of these abilities, the Aquiform cannot go below water (again, ice floats). If using both together, the Aquiform gets -2 to all attack rolls, restricted by its solidity. Either of these last until dismissed. In addition, when the Aquiform is slain, it freezes into a solid statue of unmelting ice, with Hardness 8 and HP equal to the Aquiform's. If destroyed, the ice loses these special properties, melting and breaking as normal. These statues are sometimes quite impressive, and count as art objects. To randomly generate the value, roll treasure as though for an encounter giving Double Goods treasure, but only go further if that roll gives a result of "art". Other results mean the Aquiform broke in dying, or died in an unimpressive position.

    -----------------------
    I see the Aquiform as a grappler, as should be clear from its abilities. I had another idea of it being able to take HP damage to boil itself (going Gaseous Form), but that seemed completely opposite to "Grappler".
    -----------------------

    Here's the Kindlewraith:

    Kindlewraith
    Size/Type: Large Elemental (Fire)
    Hit Dice: 8d8+16 (52 hp)
    Initiative: +3
    Speed: Firejump 30' (see Special Quality: Firejump)
    Armor Class: 16, touch 16, flat-footed 13 (-1 size, +3 dex, +4 natural)
    Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+8
    Attack: Ignite +8 ranged (1d8 fire + lights target on fire) (10' increment)
    Full Attack: Precise Ignite +8 ranged (1d8 fire + lights target on fire) (15' increment)
    Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
    Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
    Special Qualities: Firejump, immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold
    Saves: Fort +4, Ref +9, Will +2
    Abilities: Str 6, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 21
    Skills: Listen +5, Spot +6, Spellcraft +11
    Feats: Improved Initiative, Searing Spell, Blistering Spell
    Enviroment: Any
    Organization: Solitary
    Challange Rating: ??
    Treasure: See text
    Alignment: Usually Chaotic Neutral
    Advancement: 9-12 HD (Large), 13-24 HD (Huge), 25-36 HD (Gargantuan)

    A Kindlewraith inhabits fire, generally appearing as a vaguely humanoid pattern emerging from the top of whatever flame it might command, or else as the hints of a grin in its heart.

    Combat: A Kindlewraith fights by shooting jets of raw flame, as well as using its various spell-like abilities (in other words, shooting jets of more regulated flame).

    Firejump: A Kindlewraith is a creature which lives only in flame. It can occupy an area of flame up to the standard volume for its size category (a 10' cube for Large), and can move to another fire within 30' as a move action. Passing through the intervening space, it takes the form of a Fine ember, but cannot take any actions (even with feats such as Spring Attack or similar). If a Kindlewraith attempts to enter a fire larger than its maximum size, it inhabits a patch of fire of size equal to its maximum. If it attempts to enter a fire smaller than its maximum size, its size category decreases. A fire inhabited by a Kindlewraith does no damage to the thing on which it is burning, but sustains itself, unless the Kindlewraith uses a Swift action to deal standard burning damage (1d6) to the thing being burned. The fire cannot be extinguished except by killing the Kindlewraith. If a fire to which a Kindlewraith is traveling is extinguished before arrival (usually by way of a readied action), the Kindlewraith loses its next Move action and returns to its previous location. If that previous location is also extinguished in transit (by way of coordinated readied actions), it stops halfway between the two oce-fires and is stunned for one round.

    Ignite: A Kindlewraith's most basic attack is its ability to cause a nearby creature to burst into flames. Apart from the base 1d8 fire damage this causes, a creature who fails their save against this ability (Reflex DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha) (19 for this statblock) will be lit on fire, following the normal rules for this condition. Using this as a full-attack instead of a standard-action increases the range increment by 5 feet.

    Spell-like abilities: A Kindlewraith has command over magical fires as well as natural flame. It can cast any spell with the Fire descriptor that has no expensive material components or XP component, of a spell level up to half its HD, with the normal casting time for that spell. This ability has a recharge time similar to breath weapons, equal to (spell level - 1) rounds, counted on a by-spell-level basis. The Kindlewraith can apply metamagic feats it knows to its abilities, in which case the recharge is increased to match the new spell level. For example, a Kindlewraith casting Flaming Sphere would not be able to cast another 2nd level spell for one round after the round the spell is cast in. If it cast a Blistering Flaming Sphere, however, it would instead be unable to cast another 3rd level spell for two rounds after the round of casting.

    Treasure: While Kindlewraiths have no way to carry possessions with them, they do enjoy unusual fire. If a Kindlewraith is acting on its own (not bound by a caster who summoned it), it will likely seek out and burn things that have interesting flames - copper burns green, incenses are of course scented, and a Continual Flame spell never goes out (and thus makes a good safe-haven to return to). Depending on the campaign setting, different special materials might burn oddly as well, making Kindlewraiths a good indicator of possible valuables that would otherwise go overlooked - Mithril might burn white, Darkwood in a dark green, Adamantine in a tower of sparks.
    -------------

    Okay, the Air one is all that's left now.

    Unfortunately, I don't have a clue what to do with it.
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2014-06-20 at 06:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    PirateGirl

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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    I like the Mounder. Formatting could be a bit better and you forgot to add that it gets +8 racial modifier to Climb skill because it has a climb speed. Burrow speed should probably be double its land speed. CR might be a tad low. Otherwise, it looks pretty good.

    For Aquiform just start with Water Elemental stats and tweak as you go. You don't have enough written to give more advice than that.

    Debby
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2013-01-13 at 06:53 AM.
    P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
    Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    I like the Mounder. Formatting could be a bit better and you forgot to add that it gets +8 racial modifier to Climb skill because it has a climb speed. Burrow speed should probably be double its land speed. CR might be a tad low. Otherwise, it looks pretty good.

    For Aquiform just start with Water Elemental stats and tweak as you go. You don't have enough written to give more advice than that.

    Debby
    Thanks. Reformatting and adding info to Mounder now. Actually, I was considering a rework of the Mounder to be more of a lockdown tripper, because when I made it I wasn't considering making one for every element, but hit-and-run seems like more of an Air thing. Also because it generates Difficult Terrain, which helps with that. Thoughts?

    And thanks for the tip on the Aquiform.


    EDIT: Adding the Climb to the Mounder, I noticed that it had an error in skill points, so extra-thanks for pointing out the Climb.

    EDIT AGAIN: Any idea where the CR formula thingy I've heard about is?
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2013-01-13 at 12:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    Please take your monster out of spoiler. It's a lot easier to copy and paste if it isn't in a spoiler. The stat block is corrected for form and my notes are in red.

    Mounder
    Large Elemental (Earth)
    Hit Dice: 8d8+56 (92 hp)
    Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares); Climb 20 ft. ; Burrow 25 ft.

    Climb and Burrow like Fly aren't given in squares because you can have vertical movement.

    Initiative: -1
    Armor Class: 18 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +10 Natural), touch 8, flat-footed 18
    BAB/Grapple: +6/+16
    Attack: Slam +9 melee (2d8+5)
    Full Attack: 2 Slams +9 melee (2d8+5)

    Natural attacks always have x2 critical so it doesn't belong in the stat block.

    Space/Reach: 10 ft./ 5 ft.
    Special Attacks: Swallow Whole

    Surround is exactly the same as Swallow Whole. Don't rename standard abilities just to add some fluff. A cavity is exactly like a gullet only without acid damage.

    Special Qualities:Bound to Ground, Earthglide, Size Change, Thin Earth

    Lists should be alphabetized. Why doesn't it have tremorsense 30 ft.?

    Saves: Fort +13, Ref +1, Will +2
    Abilities: Str 20, Dex 8, Con 24, Int 4, Wis 10, Cha 8
    Skills: Climb +8, Listen +6, Spot +5

    Names then numbers, separated by comma.

    Feats: Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Grapple)
    Environment: Any land
    Organization: Solitary
    Challenge Rating: 4
    Treasure: Double Gems
    Alignment: Usually Lawful Neutral
    Advancement: 9-12 HD (Large), 13-24 HD (Huge), 25-36 HD (Gargantuan)

    Description, then Combat and then Special Qualities listed


    A mounder appears to be a rough pile of compacted dirt or stone. When it moves, it moves like a wave, dirt lowering in back and rising up in front. It has an internal body cavity, in which it may sometimes carry raw gems and metals it may have found.

    Combat

    A mounder attacks by jolting a spot of earth under its opponents upward, and follows up by slamming into them.

    Bound to Ground (Ex): A mounder has great difficulty leaving solid earth. If a mounder ever goes above the surface of the ground and is out of contact with an earth or stone surface, it loses all its mass. It becomes Incorporeal, its land reduced 15 feet, and it loses its other methods of movement.

    An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature.

    An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).

    An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

    An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

    An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.

    Every minute a mounder spends away from earth or stone, it gains 1 negative level. These stack, ignore immunity to negative levels, and can become permanent (removing HD) as normal (save DC 10 + HD lost). They go away if the mounder spends five minutes completely underground. If the mounder loses all its HD to this, it simply disappears.

    Earth Glide (Ex): A mounder can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing mounder flings the mounder back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

    Size Change (Ex): A mounder can change its size as a single move action per step of category changed. It cannot go above the maximum granted by its HD (See Advancement), or below Small.

    Swallow Whole (Ex): To use this ability, a mounder must succeed on a slam attack on the target. If it then succeeds on a grapple attempt against the target, the target is held inside the earth animated by the mounder. The mounder can move about normally and keep the engulfed target inside its internal cavity. Furthermore, the mounder can choose to crush anyone held inside for 1d8 points of bludgeoning and slashing damage per round.The target can attempt to escape if it deals 20 points or more of bludgeoning or acid damage to the interior of the cavity (AC 15). The mounder can only swallow creatures of sizes smaller than it. A Large mounder's cavity can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents. The cavity also holds enough air for a full load of swallowed creatures to breathe for one round. Since swallowing another creature requires the cavity to open for a short time, the air supply refreshes if another creature is swallowed or if a creature escapes.

    Note: You cannot divide 1d8 damage among each prisoner because that is too weak. How do 128 opponents share 1d8 worth of damage? Nice work on not making creatures hold their breath the whole time.


    Thin Earth (Ex):If a mounder is above ground (touching the surface of the ground), the contiguous dirt/stone surface in a 10-foot radius from it and is treated as rough terrain as it softens slightly.

    Debby
    P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
    Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    Thanks. Will correct.

    How about 1d8/prisoner averaged among them for damage? I just wanted it clear that it's the same attack hitting all of them.

    And was the bit about breath-holding sarcasm or not?
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    Okay, the Kindlewraith is now up. Thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    As an overall comment, the concept is good, the execution is also good. Best of luck to you on the project.

    Flamewraith seems pretty reasonable, maybe CR 4 or 5? I know there's a calculator around here.
    If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    I like what you are doing here.

    In interests of my Elemental Paladin project though, I wonder if you could also do some small/lesser elementals short on the hit dice, that possibly could be pulled in with low level Summon Monster.

    I do mean it, like what you're doing. Gives them some flavor. You accomplished your primary objectives. Going to run a few of these in game when my party gets to the point where they could reasonably tackle them.
    Currently sick as a dog and unable to focus properly. Will heal soon.

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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    They look good, I’d use them at least. My only real suggestion is that mafia the Kindlewraith could use some form of engulf attack; otherwise it has no melee options (though I don’t suppose it strictly needs any). Oh and looks to be about a CR 5 to me.
    I still cant find the grapple rules

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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    As an overall comment, the concept is good, the execution is also good. Best of luck to you on the project.

    Flamewraith seems pretty reasonable, maybe CR 4 or 5? I know there's a calculator around here.
    Thanks, thanks, thanks, and any idea where it is? I don't want to eyeball CRs for fear of getting them horribly wrong (see MMII).
    Quote Originally Posted by ArcturusV View Post
    I like what you are doing here.

    In interests of my Elemental Paladin project though, I wonder if you could also do some small/lesser elementals short on the hit dice, that possibly could be pulled in with low level Summon Monster.

    I do mean it, like what you're doing. Gives them some flavor. You accomplished your primary objectives. Going to run a few of these in game when my party gets to the point where they could reasonably tackle them.
    Thank you.

    Um... Maybe just back-rolling the HD and size? I just used the standard size progression for elementals for them, copypasted. I just figured it seemed to work best at larger sizes.

    Oh, tell me how it goes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Morbalus View Post
    They look good, I’d use them at least. My only real suggestion is that mafia the Kindlewraith could use some form of engulf attack; otherwise it has no melee options (though I don’t suppose it strictly needs any). Oh and looks to be about a CR 5 to me.
    Thanks.

    "mafia"?

    I don't think engulf really works when the whole point is that it launches fire at people. Also, don't forget that there's nothing that stops it from using spells and Ignite at short range, if for some reason there's nothing flammable around to move to. Also, the other two already have Engulf-equivalents, and the whole point of this was to differentiate them.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    Mafia was me not looking properly when i should have typed ‘maybe’ sorry for that. Nothing stopping at short range yeah, but not while directly threatened since every attack it makes provokes an AoO...unless I’m miss remembering spell like ability rules?

    Ok yeah if you want them to be different, but the effect of each engulf/swallow whole attack could be what differentiates them. You have the earth-thy dealing direct damage, the water drowning things, you could have a low but ongoing damage effect for the fire-type and an unwilling move attack with the air-type or perhaps throwing the creature unto he air? That way they each have their won other special attacks but one thing that unites them as elemental creatures....if you wanted
    I still cant find the grapple rules

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morbalus View Post
    Mafia was me not looking properly when i should have typed ‘maybe’ sorry for that. Nothing stopping at short range yeah, but not while directly threatened since every attack it makes provokes an AoO...unless I’m miss remembering spell like ability rules?

    Ok yeah if you want them to be different, but the effect of each engulf/swallow whole attack could be what differentiates them. You have the earth-thy dealing direct damage, the water drowning things, you could have a low but ongoing damage effect for the fire-type and an unwilling move attack with the air-type or perhaps throwing the creature unto he air? That way they each have their won other special attacks but one thing that unites them as elemental creatures....if you wanted
    Technically, it could engulf in the way you describe. Step one is to Ignite the enemy. Step two is to firejump to that fire. Personally, I'd adjuciate trying to attack one or the other in that situation similarly to attacking into a grapple (as I remember the rules, anyway): A chance of hitting either. This would also mean the person on fire would have trouble attacking the fire burning on him without accidentally stabbing himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    I didn’t think of that, it seems like a good use of the ability though. You could just add

    ‘The Kindlewraith may use Firejump to attach itself to a burning creature on a successful grapple check. Should the creature the Kindlewraith is attached to the Kindlewraith may choose to either move with that creature or remain in its current square. If the Kindlewraith uses any of its spell like ability’s or special attacks while attached to a burning creature it does not provoke an attack of opportunity form that creature.’

    To the Firejump description if you wanted.
    I still cant find the grapple rules

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    I like it!
    Although you said you needed some ideas for the air version. Here are some of my ideas.

    Constant Wind: makes it hard for arrows to hit it. You determine what strength the wind is. Also makes throwing creatures viable.
    Incorporeal: It can hit something without becoming corporeal. Seriously, who can catch the wind with a mundane sword?
    Flinging nearby objects/terrain: It can get nasty if there's a sentient whirlwind that has daggers whirling in it on your tail.
    Invisible: When it's not being a tempest of doom, it could probably be unidentifiable from a normal breeze.
    Control Winds: I could see it changing the winds to blow a cloud of poisonous gas into the adventurer's face.

    I'm just brainstorming the ideas so you don't have to take them to heart.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunamiatunzen1 View Post
    I like it!
    Although you said you needed some ideas for the air version. Here are some of my ideas.

    Constant Wind: makes it hard for arrows to hit it. You determine what strength the wind is. Also makes throwing creatures viable.
    Incorporeal: It can hit something without becoming corporeal. Seriously, who can catch the wind with a mundane sword?
    Flinging nearby objects/terrain: It can get nasty if there's a sentient whirlwind that has daggers whirling in it on your tail.
    Invisible: When it's not being a tempest of doom, it could probably be unidentifiable from a normal breeze.
    Control Winds: I could see it changing the winds to blow a cloud of poisonous gas into the adventurer's face.

    I'm just brainstorming the ideas so you don't have to take them to heart.
    Sounds cool, but...

    My original preference was to make them as different as possible. Thus, we have a standard hit-stuff Earth elemental in the Mounder (though I'm considering making use of the ability to make difficult terrain and making it a lockdown AoO tripper), a grapplemonster in the Aquiform, and a variable-range poke/blaster in the Kindlewraith. Flinging stuff doesn't seem to work too well if I want the Kindlewraith to be the range-fighter, but the rest sounds good. Not really sure what niche is left... maybe a slow-damage and debuffer? Or maybe limiting the Kindlewraith to single-target spell-likes and making the Air one an AoE killer? I'm just brainstorming here too.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    Well the only niche I can see is an ambush monster. Once again, how do you see the wind?

    Maybe have it start invisible and surround its target then suddenly pick them up off the ground in a whirlwind. It's difficult to fight when you are at the mercy of the wind and there's stuff in it slowly bludgeoning you to death.

    Or else, make it a hit-and-run monster.

    These sound good for the wind element?
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    I have some ideas for treasure for the two non-Mounder ones (to fluff things out a bit more), and also an idea for the Air one (which unfortunately lacks crunch and a name at the moment).

    Treasure:
    Kindlewraith: While Kindlewraiths have no way to carry possessions with them, they do enjoy unusual fire. If a Kindlewraith is acting on its own (not bound by a caster who summoned it), it will likely seek out and burn things that have interesting flames - copper burns green, incenses are of course scented, and a Continual Flame spell never goes out (and thus makes a good safe-haven to return to). Depending on the campaign setting, different special materials might burn oddly as well, making Kindlewraiths a good indicator of possible valuables that would otherwise go overlooked - Mithril might burn white, Darkwood in a dark green, Adamantine in a tower of sparks.

    Aquiform: Particularly powerful Aquiforms (15 HD or larger) tend to remain congealed even when defeated, leaving chunks of unmelting ice, blobs of water that do not drain away, or clouds of steam or fog that do not dissipate or drift far without strong winds. These are four size categories smaller than the Aquiform that left them.



    Air thing (Lacking a name, thinking of deriving something from "dust devil" or "spinner" or "cloudspout" (no idea where that one came from, but it doesn't quite work as a name))

    -Abilities based strongly on the weather and windspeed in the area, which it can modify.
    -Wide size variance - minimum size Medium for the really weak ones, Large very quickly after that, and they get as bit as Colossal.
    -Incorporeal, works within itself only. Visible as odd wind patterns close to ground - swirling leaves and such. More noticeable for smaller ones, and near the edges of big ones. In the middle of a really massive one, you'd need to be able to see invisibility.
    -Effective strength based on windspeed, moving objects and bull rushing only
    -Direct damage in dusty areas with high wind
    -Slow in rain?
    -Call Lightning if it's stormy
    -Larger ones would do really big showy things given time to prepare - hard to find them if they're not actively doing anything, but they can get some really big storms going if they have time to set them up.
    -Weaker ones would be either spies or assassins - they listen from hiding, and they choke you in your sleep with all the dust in the house.

    Any ideas for crunch? I'm having trouble putting a lot of this into a statblock, beyond the obvious SLAs.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    How about giving your air elemental a higher intelligence? It seems like it would fit, considering how its abilities vary with environment and you're giving them assassin-y aspects. And to subvert expectations, why not have Dexterity not be its best ability? If you think about it, if it is made of air it would have to use powerful wind currents to move things, and I personally imagine that to be a rather clumsy way to manipulate an object.

    Although would they really need to use dust to kill? Something like stealing the breath from a person's lungs would fit as well or better, I think. Also, an idea for treasure (although they could probably have lightweight goods just floating along with them): solidified air. All but invisible, but as hard as metal--something along the lines of glassteel or transparicrete. Or even not hard at all--an invisible solid (or even liquid) has near-infinite uses (I was going to suggest a fire variant of this, but you've already assigned treasure to the Kindlewraith). I do wonder, though... why are you changing the Aquiform's treasure? I thought turning into an ice sculpture was quite original.


    As for names... if I could offer a couple, I'd recommend something along the lines of Skybreath, Currentcarried/Currentcarrier, the Breathless, Tempestress, Aerotect, Spirascent, Flansodor, Aethernomer, or Windwight. You could also check through an English-[foreign language] dictionary and mangle a word related to the sky, wind, clouds, or weather until you get something that sounds good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonjek View Post
    How about giving your air elemental a higher intelligence? It seems like it would fit, considering how its abilities vary with environment and you're giving them assassin-y aspects. And to subvert expectations, why not have Dexterity not be its best ability? If you think about it, if it is made of air it would have to use powerful wind currents to move things, and I personally imagine that to be a rather clumsy way to manipulate an object.

    Although would they really need to use dust to kill? Something like stealing the breath from a person's lungs would fit as well or better, I think. Also, an idea for treasure (although they could probably have lightweight goods just floating along with them): solidified air. All but invisible, but as hard as metal--something along the lines of glassteel or transparicrete. Or even not hard at all--an invisible solid (or even liquid) has near-infinite uses (I was going to suggest a fire variant of this, but you've already assigned treasure to the Kindlewraith). I do wonder, though... why are you changing the Aquiform's treasure? I thought turning into an ice sculpture was quite original.


    As for names... if I could offer a couple, I'd recommend something along the lines of Skybreath, Currentcarried/Currentcarrier, the Breathless, Tempestress, Aerotect, Spirascent, Flansodor, Aethernomer, or Windwight. You could also check through an English-[foreign language] dictionary and mangle a word related to the sky, wind, clouds, or weather until you get something that sounds good.
    Those are good ideas. As far as the change to the Aquiform's treasure - I forgot that I had given it that ice-sculpture thing.

    And... Tempestress sounds nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Aquiform
    Not bad but I have a few corrections and issues to bring to your attention.

    Attack: Slam +9 melee (2d6 + 4)
    Full-Attack: 2 Slams + 2 Icecuts +9/+9/+4/+4 melee (2d6 + 4; 1d6 + 2, 19-20/x2)
    Natural attacks are never iterative. It gets 2 primary slam attacks at highest Attack regardless and 2 secondary at -5 (at -2 if you give it multiattack feat see below) . Attack is BAB + 6 + Str mod +5 -1 size = 10. Natural weapons don't usually have increased threat ranges so you should specifically mention that the icecuts do in the text. All natural weapons do x2 on critical hits so you don't need to add in with the damage.

    Attack: Slam +10 melee (2d6+4)
    Full Attack: 2 slams +10 melee (2d6+4) and 2 icecuts +5 (or +8 if you give it multiattack) melee (1d6+2/19-20)

    Special Qualities: Accumulation, Frozen Over

    Accumulation is useless for advanced aquiforms since they can't grow to Colossal size. It is missing the mechanics for how it changes size. Over all the ability needs to be more concise.

    Frozen over requires too much DM recalculation. I'll explain further down.

    Feats: Improved Grapple (b), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor, Weapon Focus: Grapple
    Admittedly I thought you picked weak feats for this creature. Improved Natural Armor is a wasted feat since you choose the base creature's natural armor. This also means that advanced creatures can't take this feat. Why weapon focus (grapple) instead of weapon focus (slam) or weapon focus (ice cut)?

    I recommend losing INA at the very least and replacing it with Multiattack which gives the secondary attacks only a -2 penalty to attack instead of the -5.

    Accumulation (Ex): Aquiform is a sort of Water Elemental more loosley bound to the water that forms its body than most. As such, it can increase its size whenever there's sufficient water to absorb, and decrease it wherever there's room to dump it. An Aquiform in contact with a body of water can pull in seven times its own mass in water to increase its size category by one. This added water will gradually evaporate, such that an Aquiform who absorbs the minimum volume for increasing its size category will go back down one category in roughly 8 hours in an area of normal humidity and temperature. In addition, an Aquiform can release seven-eighths of its mass in water from its form as a move action, decreasing its size category by one. An Aquiform below its normal size category due to this use of this ability will gradually absorb water from the air, going up one category per 8 hours in an area of normal humidity and temperature. If the area is particularly hot, dry, cold, or damp, the speed of these changes can be modified by up to a factor of 3. An Aquiform cannot use this ability to change their size category by more than 2 categories at first (8 HD), but this limit increases by 1 every 4 HD.
    This is just needless complex and some of it doesn't make sense. What is a factor of 3 in regard to evaporation. Also number of HD should not matter.

    Accumulation (Ex): As a standard action, whenever an aquiform is in contact with a body of water that is at least twice the size of the aquiform, it can absorb enough water to increase its size by one category. It can release the water as a move action or the water will naturally evaporate in 8 hours. In hot areas the time is halved and in cold areas the time is doubled. An aquiform that loses half or more of its hit points to desiccation damage has its size reduced by one-step. see http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingM...#sizeIncreases

    Engulf (Ex): The Aquiform has the ability to engulf enemies which it gains a hold on. If the Aquiform uses the "hold" option of Improved Grab, it may elect to engulf the enemy instead of holding it. In this case, the Aquiform does not lose the use of the Slam attack used to initiate the grapple, and the target is considered underwater while engulfed, therefore having to hold its breath to not drown. In addition, instead of winning an opposed Grapple check or Escape Artist check to escape, the target must make a Swim check that beats (5 + Aquiform's Grapple modifier). This escape provokes an AoO from the Aquiform on a successful escape. The Aquiform may engulf an amount of creatures simultaneously as calculated for Swallow Whole: Two creatures one size smaller, eight creatures two sizes smaller, etcetera.
    Engulf (Ex): An aquiform can try to wrap Medium or smaller creatures in its body as a standard action. The aquiform attempts a grapple that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and pulls its target underwater. A grappled opponent must make a Swim check that beats the aquiform's Grapple modifier by 5 or more to escape. An engulfed creature must hold its breath to avoid drowning. The escape provokes an Attack of Opportunity from the aquiform. A Large aquiform can engulf 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.

    Icecut (Ex): An Aquiform can freeze its surface in small shards. If the Aquiform takes a swift action to do so, it can get small shards of ice in its bludgeoning appendages. These are a secondary natural weapon which deal damage as a dagger of the Aquiform's size. Going completely underwater causes these to be lost, as the ice floats above.
    Icecut (Ex): As a swift action, an aquiform can freeze shards of ice to use as secondary natural weapons that cause 1d6 points of piercing or slashing damage and score a critical hit on 19-20. Complete immersion in water causes these weapons to be lost, as the ice floats above.

    Frozen Over (Ex): An Aquiform can also freeze itself defensively. This ability has two options. First, it can freeze its entire body partially into a slush. This is treated as wearing breastplate except for the weight (it effectively has none) and the AC bonus type (it qualifies as Natural Armor, but stacks with the existing Natural Armor). Alternately, the Aquiform can freeze a hard shell over itself. This is treated as wearing Full Plate except for the weight (effectively none). When using either of these abilities, the Aquiform cannot go below water (again, ice floats). In addition, when the Aquiform is slain, it freezes into a solid statue of ice which is as durable as stone (including not melting) as long as it is not destroyed. This has value as an art object, of GP value equal to Standard treasure.
    Frozen Over (Ex): As a standard action, an aquiform can cool itself into slush to gain additional +5 to its natural armor bonus. Alternatively, as a full-round action, aquiform can freeze a hard shell over itself to gain additional +8 to its natural armor bonus. The armor bonus lasts for 1 minute or until the aquiform takes 10 or more points of damage, whichever comes first. While frozen over, an aquiform cannot submerge in water as it is too buoyant. Last of all, when an aquiform is slain, it freezes into a solid statue of non-melting ice (with its full hit points) that has a hardness of 15. Many consider these statues to objects of art and an intact statue can sell for 1,600 2,000 gp.


    Vorpal Tribble's CR estimator:

    #1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5. 4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

    72/5= 14

    #2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below. AC 20= 2

    #3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if it has a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

    2

    #4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

    2

    #5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has. it only has 1 bonus feat so 0

    #6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.

    14 +2+2+2+0=20/3=6.66 so its CR is a high 6 or low 7.

    Debby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    Not bad but I have a few corrections and issues to bring to your attention.



    Natural attacks are never iterative. It gets 2 primary slam attacks at highest Attack regardless and 2 secondary at -5 (at -2 if you give it multiattack feat see below) . Attack is BAB + 6 + Str mod +5 -1 size = 10. Natural weapons don't usually have increased threat ranges so you should specifically mention that the icecuts do in the text. All natural weapons do x2 on critical hits so you don't need to add in with the damage.

    Attack: Slam +10 melee (2d6+4)
    Full Attack: 2 slams +10 melee (2d6+4) and 2 icecuts +5 (or +8 if you give it multiattack) melee (1d6+2/19-20)

    Special Qualities: Accumulation, Frozen Over

    Accumulation is useless for advanced aquiforms since they can't grow to Colossal size. It is missing the mechanics for how it changes size. Over all the ability needs to be more concise.

    Frozen over requires too much DM recalculation. I'll explain further down.



    Admittedly I thought you picked weak feats for this creature. Improved Natural Armor is a wasted feat since you choose the base creature's natural armor. This also means that advanced creatures can't take this feat. Why weapon focus (grapple) instead of weapon focus (slam) or weapon focus (ice cut)?

    I recommend losing INA at the very least and replacing it with Multiattack which gives the secondary attacks only a -2 penalty to attack instead of the -5.



    This is just needless complex and some of it doesn't make sense. What is a factor of 3 in regard to evaporation. Also number of HD should not matter.

    Accumulation (Ex): As a standard action, whenever an aquiform is in contact with a body of water that is at least twice the size of the aquiform, it can absorb enough water to increase its size by one category. It can release the water as a move action or the water will naturally evaporate in 8 hours. In hot areas the time is halved and in cold areas the time is doubled. An aquiform that loses half or more of its hit points to desiccation damage has its size reduced by one-step. see http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingM...#sizeIncreases



    Engulf (Ex): An aquiform can try to wrap Medium or smaller creatures in its body as a standard action. The aquiform attempts a grapple that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and pulls its target underwater. A grappled opponent must make a Swim check that beats the aquiform's Grapple modifier by 5 or more to escape. An engulfed creature must hold its breath to avoid drowning. The escape provokes an Attack of Opportunity from the aquiform. A Large aquiform can engulf 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.



    Icecut (Ex): As a swift action, an aquiform can freeze shards of ice to use as secondary natural weapons that cause 1d6 points of piercing or slashing damage and score a critical hit on 19-20. Complete immersion in water causes these weapons to be lost, as the ice floats above.



    Frozen Over (Ex): As a standard action, an aquiform can cool itself into slush to gain additional +5 to its natural armor bonus. Alternatively, as a full-round action, aquiform can freeze a hard shell over itself to gain additional +8 to its natural armor bonus. The armor bonus lasts for 1 minute or until the aquiform takes 10 or more points of damage, whichever comes first. While frozen over, an aquiform cannot submerge in water as it is too buoyant. Last of all, when an aquiform is slain, it freezes into a solid statue of non-melting ice (with its full hit points) that has a hardness of 15. Many consider these statues to objects of art and an intact statue can sell for 1,600 gp.


    Vorpal Tribble's CR estimator:

    #1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5. 4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

    72/5= 14

    #2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below. AC 20= 2

    #3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if it has a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

    2

    #4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

    2

    #5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has. it only has 1 bonus feat so 0

    #6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.

    14 +2+2+2+0=20/3=6.66 so its CR is a high 6 or low 7.

    Debby
    Thanks for the rephrasings and CR, though I would note that an "art object" is an established term for treasure purposes (can be sold for full value instead of half, like a trade good), and I was trying to keep the treasure level-appropriate (your value is a good bit below average for the CR).

    The bit in Frozen Over about counting as armor was intended to pull in the maximum Dexterity bonus and ACP. Ice doesn't bend. I guess I'll just put those in explicitly.

    How does Accumulation become useless for advanced ones? I don't see anything preventing them from growing to Colossal - also, there are situations where shrinking would be useful, but you seem to have missed that.

    Your Accumulation rewrite is also off about the amount of water - an increase of one size category is eight times the volume. A body of water twice the size wouldn't get it there.

    EDIT: I've worked your stuff into it, as well as modified Frozen Over's full-plate option into a DR-granting option and worked out what feels like a fair value for the statue (roll as for a double-Goods encounter, only count if it gives Art).
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2014-06-20 at 06:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    Treasure for 6th level encounter is 2,000 gp. I guess I pulled it off the 5th level by mistake. See here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm#standard

    Glad to help.

    Debby.
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2014-06-20 at 09:04 PM.
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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    Treasure for 6th level encounter is 2,000 gp. I guess I pulled it off the 5th level by mistake. See here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm#standard

    Glad to help.
    Debby.
    I saw that, but I recalculated CR to include the DR and bonus AC from my modified Frozen Over (+1/2 each before the division, since both take time to get up and it gets restrictions when using them), and it's solidly CR 7 now.

    Not that it matters much, since the treasure is now based on the standard tables as far as value goes.
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2014-06-20 at 06:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    Hrm....very interesting project, and certainly about time there was a little love for elemental creatures!

    As an advanced warning, I may/may not rant a little in the coming text, it is a habit of mine, but there will be ideas and thoughts dotted throughout....if it becomes a WoT, I apologise...

    The Moulder is great fluff-wise and looks very usable, but truthfully feels a little underwhelming when compared to the capabilities of the other two. This may be (in part at least) to do with the tweaking and development you've made to the other two, since I only recently saw this post it's highly probable that they were closer to each other when this started (not a criticism, merely idle speculation). The best thing I can think of to help this is to more closely define it's role, and try to leave an open niche for the coming air elemental;

    Based on what you have brainstormed (publicly here, at any rate) on the air work in progress, you are tending towards bullrush/overrun and impeding tactics for it, which I highly approve of btw since it's what I'd do This would likely mean giving the Moulder a leg up in it's own niche, so an ability to compliment Thin Earth might be an option worth serious consideration. My vision of this works as follows;

    Hostile Ground. As a full round action, the Mounder may cause the ground within it's Thin Earth ability to attack violently, thrusting chunks of rock and earth upwards and outwards with great force. The Mounder makes a single slam attack which is opposed by a reflex save by each hostile creature within the area. If a save fails, that creature is tripped and is dealt damage equal to your slam attack, a successful save negates the trip effect and halves the damage. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and an opponent who succeeds on their save may not react to trip the Mounder.
    This ability may be used on objects and structures as well, allowing the Mounder to deal significant damage to any object in contact with the ground or a structure's foundations. If used this way, the damage dealt ignores a number of points of hardness equal to half the Mounder's HD, and objects or structures which occupy more than one square of Thin Earth are dealt an additional 1D8 damage for each square they occupy past the first, note the hardness reduction is only applied once (so a structure with hardness 15 and taking up 3 squares of Thin Earth would have it's hardness reduced to 11 and would be dealt 4D8+5 damage, assuming the above stat block).

    Might be too much, but it's only ever a 10ft radius around the Mounder and it just seems right...

    ----

    Regarding the Aquiform...well, not a thing I can say really, other than 'awesome'. It's just neat and effective as it is.

    ----

    The Kindlewraith question though, well...I must chime in on the side of writing a specific ruling for inhabiting the flames of a burning creature. Since (as it's already been pointed out I think) just about every attack option they get will provoke AoO, and they're rather static by nature, there needs to be a specific ruling stated to avoid the endless confusions this might cause for certain people. Simply applying the grappling rules doesn't chime right with me since it ISN'T a grapple, I'd think about maybe referring to the rules for a swarm since mechanically it's a far closer principle.

    ----

    Air elemental eh....? Your outline ideas sound excellent, but I can see how translating them into a reasonable stat block would be more awkward. I agree with essentially ignoring dexterity altogether, as I similarly agree with giving them good intelligence. However, I would like to suggest that instead of just wind and the occassional shot of lightning, you think about playing with air pressure a bit more, with an eye to 'solid air' as you suggested, as well as a vacuum ability to play with. Either of these could render a useful and interesting engulf ability, one being rather like a mobile force cage, the other being a suffocation attack. The assassin direction for them is a great idea (maybe call the Windstalkers), and certainly a new niche when it comes to elementals (since they're not usually subtle creatures...) so I'd actually be more tempted to look at the suffocation angle with preference, using the 'solid air' approach for their natural slam attack (perhaps dealing less damage but with automatic bullrush/overrun attempts built in). I'm sure I'll have more to say on the matter once the creature passes the theoretical stage and actually gets some structure posted

    ----

    With all that said, I'd happily use all 3 of these already, and the work you've done is superb, both mechanically and fluffwise. Looking forward to seeing what you do with the air!
    Last edited by Veklim; 2014-06-22 at 10:54 AM.
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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    I've finally had an idea worth having for the air one. Unfortunately, I'm having difficulty fitting it into something that fits the CR system at all - it's not really a combat monster. Here's my scratch-notes, anyway:

    The Eye
    - Basically oracles
    - Immobile in combat time (maybe move at a rate of feet/day) but with a wide area of influence - thinking 1000 feet plus 1000 feet per HD. Size category of the actual Eye scales with HD as well, but more slowly. Maybe the really big ones get a combat-time speed - I looked it up, and actual hurricanes can easily manage 15 feet per second, but I want to stay well below those crazy speeds.
    - Control airflow within their area: Control windspeed in up to... maybe 3/4 of their area (radius as above). Areas not affected are completely still. In addition, telekinesis-like effect via precise air control with strength varying by distance (very low at max range - it takes a really big one to be able to apply precise force at even STR 10). Was thinking one move-or-standard action with it at max-range-or-nearer, one at max-minus-1000-or-nearer, etcetera, so if you're close to a big one it can be doing a lot at once.
    - Aware of events within their area. Again, cannot focus their attention everywhere - there's that still-air area where they aren't looking/acting.
    - Invisible, of course, but can be spotted if there's loose dust or similar in their actual location.
    - 50% chance of damage from anything - like incorporeal but mundane stuff works. Select spells and weapons (especially the right improvised weapons such as anything large, flat, and stiff) might ignore that.

    Sources of inspiration: Tamora Pierce's Provost's Dog books. Also, double-meaning of "The Eye" as in hurricane/oracle.

    Anyone see a way to work with this?
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    First of all, this is a phenomenal project. I never really noticed how shuffed the elementals get, but they certainly do.

    As for the air, IMHO there could be something more thematically appropriate than "The Eye." I love the concept, but I don't personally feel like it fits well with an air elemental (although obviously its your homebrew and your choice). I have a theory as to why it's been difficult to come up with unique offensive prowess for it. With the other three, you were inspired by something connected to the threats the pose; you mentioned
    a standard hit-stuff Earth elemental in the Mounder (though I'm considering making use of the ability to make difficult terrain and making it a lockdown AoO tripper), a grapplemonster in the Aquiform, and a variable-range poke/blaster in the Kindlewraith
    So you have:
    • The Earth slamming you down, like landslides, or erupting unexpectedly (AoO) like the natural terrain being slippery and dangerous (or full of earthquakes)
    • The Water drowning someone because they're not strong enough to fight against it
    • The fire straight-up jumping out and blasting you (ever been close to a big bonfire?)

    All the established powers are analogues to the inherent danger we associate with those elements of nature; but air is what we breathe, and the only natural disaster that tends to spring to mind is a tornado--hence their appearance as cyclone-like entities.

    In my opinion, the best place to start is by identifying aspects of air that are deadly and terrifying. Off the top of my head:
    • The lack of air is a no-brainer; an adaptation of suffocation, strangulation or constriction could work here to do something along the lines of what dragonjek suggested
    • When there's something dangerous in the air: maybe implement poison use with the air elemental? This would also go well with the assassin-y feel
    • Strictly speaking with tornadoes and strong winds, they toss things around. A grapple build that throws people doesn't seem very fitting or effective, but maybe if the air elemental did bull rushes and charges it could illustrate this aspect


    Those are my first impressions from scrolling through this thread. I really like what you've done so far!
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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    That was, in fact, not my source for ideas. It wasn't "how to make this lethal," it was "let's say we had an elemental that didn't bring material with it." My first idea was the Earth Elemental that, instead of dragging a bunch of rocks along, moves like a wave - none of the stuff actually moves. Then I decided to expand it. Water worked the same way, again with only limited ability to bring material with it, and added drowning because it's not an idiot, and ice equipment because, hey, water is three-state and two of them fit here. Fire was the same - if it can't bring material it needs existing fire - plus blasting because it's not solid.

    The problem with going the same way for air is that that's been done - the standard air elemental turns into a tornado, and Invisible Stalkers handle the you-don't-notice-it.

    What was left as unexplored space? Even more than earth, air is everywhere, and its also the least dangerous, so I decided on a primarily non-combat creature based on presence.

    Regarding specific suggestions:
    Vacuum doesn't work because the whole thing is that they are air, not the lack of air. The Kindlewraith can't go out, the Aquiform can't give you a bubble to breathe, and the Mounder can't give you a comfortably large cave.

    Poison might fit a corruption, like an Acid-based Water elemental, but... When I think poison, I think liquids and solids long before gases.

    And I've got control of windspeed in the current scratchnotes for the Eye, as well as fine movement.

    Thanks, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    The Eye
    The name immediately made me think: Sauron from Lord of the Rings. You might want to make sure to differentiate in some way.

    - Basically oracles
    So these are effectively NPCs not monsters. That should be identified right away.

    - Immobile in combat time (maybe move at a rate of feet/day) but with a wide area of influence - thinking 1000 feet plus 1000 feet per HD. Size category of the actual Eye scales with HD as well, but more slowly. Maybe the really big ones get a combat-time speed - I looked it up, and actual hurricanes can easily manage 15 feet per second, but I want to stay well below those crazy speeds.
    Hmm. There should be a good reason why they can't retreat from combat. I'm not sure what you mean by "influence" Are you talking about a radius for special abilities or something else?

    - Control airflow within their area: Control windspeed in up to... maybe 3/4 of their area (radius as above). Areas not affected are completely still. In addition, telekinesis-like effect via precise air control with strength varying by distance (very low at max range - it takes a really big one to be able to apply precise force at even STR 10). Was thinking one move-or-standard action with it at max-range-or-nearer, one at max-minus-1000-or-nearer, etcetera, so if you're close to a big one it can be doing a lot at once.
    Spell-like ability control winds. See here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm

    - Aware of events within their area. Again, cannot focus their attention everywhere - there's that still-air area where they aren't looking/acting.
    Do they have all-around vision?

    - Invisible, of course, but can be spotted if there's loose dust or similar in their actual location.
    If they aren't moving, they'd be very difficult to spot. "If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving." -- from Hide skill see Special.

    - 50% chance of damage from anything - like incorporeal but mundane stuff works. Select spells and weapons (especially the right improvised weapons such as anything large, flat, and stiff) might ignore that.
    I'm not really sure what you mean. Are they vulnerable to slashing weapons but not to piercing or bludgeoning? Or just a selection of weapons (list of them would be good). Note: ghost-touch shouldn't affect them as they are not ethereal, just invisible.

    Sources of inspiration: Tamora Pierce's Provost's Dog books. Also, double-meaning of "The Eye" as in hurricane/oracle.
    I wasn't familiar w/that author or series so thanks for mentioning it.

    Anyone see a way to work with this?
    Possibly but I want to know more what your vision is. I don't like highjacking critters because that just ends in tears, likely for both of us, as you will hate what I do and I'll have wasted my time.

    Debby
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2015-06-17 at 06:28 AM.
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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    The name immediately made me think: Sauron from Lord of the Rings. You might want to make sure to differentiate in some way.
    Does it? In this context, I thought "eye of the storm". I do know what you mean, though.

    So these are effectively NPCs not monsters. That should be identified right away.
    Not quite. Just not monsters that go for direct combat first. After all, nor do Doppelgangers (or plenty of other things - that was just the first that came to mind).

    Hmm. There should be a good reason why they can't retreat from combat. I'm not sure what you mean by "influence" Are you talking about a radius for special abilities or something else?
    The reason for having little to no movement ability was back to their inspiration and general theme - they know what's going on in their area, but they don't really leave it. Extremely local power. They can't retreat from combat, true, but they don't really join combat either - the best defense is not getting in a fight. Their self, their body, is fragile, but if you actually find it and get to it they've messed up. For a big one, think mob boss, or the mysterious leader who never communicates in person. They know everything that's going on in their city, and if they want to they can just... reach out and touch you. I think the inspiration of the inspiration was those spots you sometimes see that get little leaf whirlwinds very frequently just from how surrounding buildings and such line up. Their "influence" refers to the next two points - their Control Winds, their telekinesis effect, and their perception.

    Spell-like ability control winds. See here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm
    Yes, that was my intent.

    Do they have all-around vision?
    That too, but it's more that if something is in their radius (and not underwater or in vacuum or some airtight container) they know about it. Considering dropping the 3/4 limit, actually.

    If they aren't moving, they'd be very difficult to spot. "If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving." -- from Hide skill see Special.
    Yes, this is true, but if they've picked up dust or leaves they're not invisible (though they still don't look much like a thinking being).

    I'm not really sure what you mean. Are they vulnerable to slashing weapons but not to piercing or bludgeoning? Or just a selection of weapons (list of them would be good). Note: ghost-touch shouldn't affect them as they are not ethereal, just invisible.
    I mean incorporeal, but taking damage from strong winds (which, as they control the natural wind in their area, would have to be created by either a large (possibly improvised) fan or a strong spellcaster.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
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    Default Re: New Takes on Old Elementals (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    That was, in fact, not my source for ideas. It wasn't "how to make this lethal," it was "let's say we had an elemental that didn't bring material with it.".
    Ah, I see where this is coming from much better now. My apologies on misunderstanding the goal.

    I still anticipate where this project will go!
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