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    Default "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    This is a continuation of Firechanter's "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection Thread.

    There is now a Handbook, well it's more of an index really.
    Last edited by nedz; 2013-01-20 at 07:38 AM.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Isn't it customary to provide a link to the previous topic?

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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Nedz, you willing to edit in entries from the previous thread that we collect and summarize? (Not asking you to do the sifting yourself, obviously. )
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    New title is too similar to old. I nominate "Dangit, the errata doesn't work right either!" - Dysfunctional Rules Collection Part II.
    Revan avatar by kaptainkrutch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by ahenobarbi View Post
    Isn't it customary to provide a link to the previous topic?
    I figured you could get there from the top of the thread easily enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    Nedz, you willing to edit in entries from the previous thread that we collect and summarize? (Not asking you to do the sifting yourself, obviously. )
    Why not ?

    I had a look at doing the sifting.
    Using Thread Tools->Show Printable Version you can set Show 40 posts.
    That reduces the pages from 50 to 36.
    It's still a big task though.

    How would we format the entries ?
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    How about putting it in a Google doc instead of clogging up each thread with an increasing number of entries from previous threads?
    Revan avatar by kaptainkrutch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    How about putting it in a Google doc instead of clogging up each thread with an increasing number of entries from previous threads?
    Go ahead and I'll edit in a link.

    Is there an automatic way to pull in the whole thread ?
    π = 4
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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Maybe we should use a different thread for the consolidation ?
    The entries could be sorted into the relevant area of the rules.
    Something like
    • Base Classes
    • PrCs
    • Skills
    • Feats
    • Equipment
    • Combat
    • Spells
    • Misc


    This could be the Complete Dysfunctional Handbook ?
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Maybe we should use a different thread for the consolidation ?
    The entries could be sorted into the relevant area of the rules.
    Something like
    • Base Classes
    • PrCs
    • Skills
    • Feats
    • Equipment
    • Combat
    • Spells
    • Misc


    This could be the Complete Dysfunctional Handbook ?
    Hmm, sounds like a plan.

    And entries should be as concise as possible, obviously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    I'm on it !

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    Hmm, sounds like a plan.

    And entries should be as concise as possible, obviously.
    Yes, with links to the original discussion.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Here we go, lets see if this can work ?
    π = 4
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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    New rule for the collection. Not dysfunctional per se (it works) but the implications are literally staggering.

    To craft a wand for a level 1 spell, it basically takes 1 day (base cost 750 gp). If the spell has any costly material components, 50 copies must be provided, which are consumed in the making of the wand. I want to make a wand of identify.

    Arcane Material Component
    A pearl of at least 100 gp value, crushed and stirred into wine with an owl feather; the infusion must be drunk prior to spellcasting.
    The wandmaker has to drink 50 glasses of wine. At the end of the day of wandmaking, if the wizard is still alive after alcohol poisoning (hope your fort save is good, or you are a necropolitan) they are extremely, blindingly, staggeringly drunk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    New rule for the collection. Not dysfunctional per se (it works) but the implications are literally staggering.

    To craft a wand for a level 1 spell, it basically takes 1 day (base cost 750 gp). If the spell has any costly material components, 50 copies must be provided, which are consumed in the making of the wand. I want to make a wand of identify.



    The wandmaker has to drink 50 glasses of wine. At the end of the day of wandmaking, if the wizard is still alive after alcohol poisoning (hope your fort save is good, or you are a necropolitan) they are extremely, blindingly, staggeringly drunk.
    Try grape juice. Maybe magic doesn't know the difference?
    Seems kind of odd to me that you have to be at least a little drunk to do something as complicated as identifying a magical item. That's just silly.
    Jude P.

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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    New rule for the collection. Not dysfunctional per se (it works) but the implications are literally staggering.

    To craft a wand for a level 1 spell, it basically takes 1 day (base cost 750 gp). If the spell has any costly material components, 50 copies must be provided, which are consumed in the making of the wand. I want to make a wand of identify.

    The wandmaker has to drink 50 glasses of wine. At the end of the day of wandmaking, if the wizard is still alive after alcohol poisoning (hope your fort save is good, or you are a necropolitan) they are extremely, blindingly, staggeringly drunk.
    Technically, the component is just the 100gp pearl, which happens to be consumed via wine; it doesn't say that it has to be a full glass of wine per pearl. The wandmaker could crush 50 pearls, stir them into a bottle of wine, and drink the resulting infusion, which would only be 6 glasses or so and would be much easier to handle.
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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Technically, the component is just the 100gp pearl, which happens to be consumed via wine; it doesn't say that it has to be a full glass of wine per pearl. The wandmaker could crush 50 pearls, stir them into a bottle of wine, and drink the resulting infusion, which would only be 6 glasses or so and would be much easier to handle.
    Also, while during crafting the spell slots are expended as though cast, it doesn't say you have to actually cast them in the usual way. So maybe you just have to magically bind the pearl-wine into the finished wand, rather than drinking it.

    ... Still weird.
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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Well it doesn't say how big the glasses have to be.

    Also: How do you get 50 spell slots in one day to create a wand at the level you can first do this ?
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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    You don't need 50 spell slots.

    The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires. Fifty of each needed material component are required, one for each charge. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost (multiplied by 50) upon beginning the wand in addition to the XP cost for making the wand itself. Likewise, material components are consumed when she begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a wand can be reused.) The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand’s creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    You don't need 50 spell slots.
    That's good, ... But Wands are spell storage items ?

    Since I can craft a level 1 wand in 1 day I can store my one slot in a wand and get 50 back ?

    OK,

    Suppose a wizard needed to cast the same spell 50 times in one day?

    The wizard spends eight hours and one slot in making the wand; and then off he can go, missing only one spell slot, and cast it 50 times?
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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    That's good, ... But Wands are spell storage items ?

    Since I can craft a level 1 wand in 1 day I can store my one slot in a wand and get 50 back ?

    OK,

    Suppose a wizard needed to cast the same spell 50 times in one day?

    The wizard spends eight hours and one slot in making the wand; and then off he can go, missing only one spell slot, and cast it 50 times?
    Yes, but in exchange for that, he spends a lot of gold, some XP, and most of the day, as well as having to have taken the relevant feat. That's the point: Crafting wands is spending other resources to turn one casting into fifty that aren't day-limited.
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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Crafting wands is spending other resources to turn one casting into fifty ...
    By drinking a barrel of wine!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    By drinking a barrel of wine!
    And now we know that all Wands of Identify were crafted by Dwarves.
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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    All right folks, got another one for the group.

    Magelord PrC from Lost Empires of Faerun. Horrible PrC to get into, with 4 feats required, two of them terrible (Spell Mastery and Signature Spell [From PGtF]).

    I don't even know if it is possible to qualify for the class before ECL 11. Anyway, Signature Spell enables you to spontaneously cast one mastered spell (the class gives you more signature spells).

    The 10th level feature Magelord Mastery allows you to apply one or more known metamagic feats to one of your spontaneously cast signature spells. The dysfunction? You can already do so! (Well, you could, if you actually knew any metamagic feats - but you don't because of the terribad feat tax which consists of 0 metamagic feats.)

    Quote Originally Posted by PGtF
    You may now convert prepared arcane spells of that spell’s level or higher into your signature spell, just as a good cleric can spontaneously cast prepared spells as cure spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats
    A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a 1-action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Yes, but in exchange for that, he spends a lot of gold, some XP, and most of the day, as well as having to have taken the relevant feat. That's the point: Crafting wands is spending other resources to turn one casting into fifty that aren't day-limited.
    Well not a whole lot of gold, xp is a river, and he has 14 hours and 45 minute free time available every day anyway. Basically Wizards get to break the law of thermodynamics at level 5, and even get a free feat slot to power it.
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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Do you get to add the metamagic without increasing casting time to a full round, though?
    Jude P.

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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Do you get to add the metamagic without increasing casting time to a full round, though?
    Nope. I quoted the pertinent part. It says nothing about keeping the same casting time, the class feature and the feat both say "as a cleric."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    Nope. I quoted the pertinent part. It says nothing about keeping the same casting time, the class feature and the feat both say "as a cleric."
    Well then yeah, that's dumb. Sounds like an awful PrC anyway.
    Jude P.

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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    BTW, if you count 3.0 as a rules source, all the claims about not being able to see the Sun, moon, stars, etc., as well as the problem of not being able to see a torch, are, in fact, not true. As Kelb Panthera pointed out in a recent thread, Underdark p. 106 has rules for just such occasions.

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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    BTW, if you count 3.0 as a rules source, all the claims about not being able to see the Sun, moon, stars, etc., as well as the problem of not being able to see a torch, are, in fact, not true. As Kelb Panthera pointed out in a recent thread, Underdark p. 106 has rules for just such occasions.
    Then it is still dysfunctional, because why would the rule that allows you to actually see the sun be in a book titled "Underdark?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    The same reason sundark lenses, highly useful for denizens of the Underdark, are found in Races of the Dragon.
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    Default Re: "Wait again, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Well not a whole lot of gold, xp is a river, and he has 14 hours and 45 minute free time available every day anyway. Basically Wizards get to break the law of thermodynamics at level 5, and even get a free feat slot to power it.
    How do you arrive at a crafting time of 1 hour 15 min? (You need 8 hours of sleep to refresh spells.)
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