Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 25 of 25
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Byzantine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ahon'armahs, Vastulersa
    Gender
    Female

    Default [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    "Soulless" is an inherited template that may be applied to any corporeal animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid or vermin with a dual-nature/soul (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

    A soulless creature uses all the base creatures statistics and abilities except as noted here.

    Size and Type: Type becomes aberration. All subtypes are retained. Size is unchanged. Do not recalculate the creatures Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves or skill points.

    Special Qualities: A soulless creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following.
    • Emotionless (Ex): A soulless creature is immune to any spell or effect that attempts to influence their emotional state, as they have none. They also gain a +4 bonus against spells such as Suggestion and Dominiate.
    • Soulless (Ex): A soulless creature has no soul, and thus is not dual-natured. They cannot be resurrected by anything short of a Limited Wish, Wish, or Miracle spell, they are immune to spells such as Trap the Soul and Speak with Dead, and they can only be raised as mindless undead.


    Abilities: +4 Con, -2 Wis, -4 Cha

    Skills: -2 to Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive. +6 to Intimidate.

    Environment: As base creature.

    Challenge rating: As base creature.

    Aligntment: Usually any Neutral.

    Level Adjustment: As base creature +1
    Last edited by Byzantine; 2013-01-24 at 11:59 AM. Reason: Added Sense Motive Negative, Upped Intimidate
    My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.

    Generation 9
    The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.

    Complete Homebrew:
    Soulless Template

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    You lost the game.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    I don't see why this would up the CR at all. There are a number of penalties (cumulative -2 on abilities, -1 on skills), which offset what few advantages they get.

    Cool idea, just needs to be adjusted CRwise.
    James/TheDoge Avatar by Ceika!

    Quotes:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by TravelLog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    *snip* ...Hands down the funniest class critique ever... *snip*
    I cannot tell you the number of times I laughed while reading this.

    Homebrew Awards:
    Spoiler
    Show

    First Place Pathfinder Grab Bags:
    XIII
    XIV
    XV
    XVIII

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Byzantine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ahon'armahs, Vastulersa
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    I don't see why this would up the CR at all. There are a number of penalties (cumulative -2 on abilities, -1 on skills), which offset what few advantages they get.

    Cool idea, just needs to be adjusted CRwise.
    Exactly why I posted it. It's an old template I made a while back. Since it's been 'completed', so to speak, I wanted to see what others had to say. The CR and LA were both taken from suggestions and experience with other templates. Considering what it does, I personally can imagine dropping it to +1, though removing it entirely is also definitely an option.
    My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.

    Generation 9
    The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.

    Complete Homebrew:
    Soulless Template

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    I agree with making it just +1. +0 templates are inherently dangerous and abuseable, and this does provide some benefits, but it clearly isn't worth +2. Even at +1 it is stretching it.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
    Show


    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Byzantine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ahon'armahs, Vastulersa
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    For LA, you mean?
    My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.

    Generation 9
    The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.

    Complete Homebrew:
    Soulless Template

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine View Post
    For LA, you mean?
    Yes. Sorry that wasn't clear.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
    Show


    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Byzantine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ahon'armahs, Vastulersa
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Yes. Sorry that wasn't clear.
    It's alright, just wondering before I changed the CR again. I'm actually a bit surprised to lower it, myself. Since many players classify LA as 'for PCs', I had to take into account the benefits that one gets from the template.

    Aberration type means that any Soulless character now is completely immune to Hold Person. Charm Person is already immune from it, but it is superseded by the Emotionless trait. They are also rendered immune to Dominate Person.

    Emotionless, while some of it's effects overlap with the Aberration type, makes the character notoriously hard to control, which can be a serious advantage in some settings. Immunity to fear and charm, resistance to domination... Heck, it's even harder to use Suggestion on them.

    Soulless is their main drawback in more gritty, death-laden games. Early on, if the player isn't careful, they will basically be forced roll up a new character.

    Ability penalties are in stats that are commonly dumped, while a +4 con is 2hp a level. Which, admittedly, offsets how hard it is to raise them. And the skills are.... well, I have nothing to say about the skills affect on the power level.

    All that said, I'll drop it to +1, but I'm interested in hearing what others have to say about the LA.
    Last edited by Byzantine; 2013-01-22 at 07:05 PM.
    My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.

    Generation 9
    The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.

    Complete Homebrew:
    Soulless Template

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Skills: -2 to Bluff and Diplomacy. +3 to Intimidate.
    I'm not sure how someone's lack of emotion can actually make him a worse liar. If he don't feel any emotion, he should instead have basically an infinitely high bonus. Although then, this make the template very powerful. Still, a +2 bonus would be better than nothing.

    Talking about it, the bonus to intimidate may be reduced from +3 to +2, because +3 is an odd number.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Byzantine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ahon'armahs, Vastulersa
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Quote Originally Posted by Network View Post
    I'm not sure how someone's lack of emotion can actually make him a worse liar. If he don't feel any emotion, he should instead have basically an infinitely high bonus. Although then, this make the template very powerful. Still, a +2 bonus would be better than nothing.

    Talking about it, the bonus to intimidate may be reduced from +3 to +2, because +3 is an odd number.
    Most skill bonuses are +1, +2, +3 or +5 from what I've seen.

    As for the Bluff penalty, I believe my original reasoning was because they lack emotions, they also normally lack the urge to lie in the first place. There's no reason to lie if you don't fear the repercussions of the truth.

    At least, I think that was the reasoning behind it.
    My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.

    Generation 9
    The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.

    Complete Homebrew:
    Soulless Template

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine View Post
    As for the Bluff penalty, I believe my original reasoning was because they lack emotions, they also normally lack the urge to lie in the first place. There's no reason to lie if you don't fear the repercussions of the truth.

    At least, I think that was the reasoning behind it.
    Well, I don't know what to say about it, but if they get punished when they tell the truth, wouldn't they tend to lie almost whenever they can?

    For the intimidate thing, I didn't realize that a +2 bonus to intimidate would mean a total modifier of +0 due to the penalty to charisma. And if they are intended to be good at this, maybe they could even have +4.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Afool's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Penn's Forest
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Another way to put it could be that, because they lack emotions, they also lack the capacity (or have a decreased capacity) to understand emotions, which would make putting up an effective lie harder. Following that, a penalty to Sense Motive might be in theme for the same reason, but adding too many penalties with the LA might be overloading the ship.
    Thanks to Teutonic Knight for letting me adopt my Pikeman Avatar.
    A Tricking Website

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Because of the +4 Con and abberation type (qualifies for rapidstrike), this template just so happens to be a nice choice for Totemists.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Byzantine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ahon'armahs, Vastulersa
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Quote Originally Posted by Network View Post
    Well, I don't know what to say about it, but if they get punished when they tell the truth, wouldn't they tend to lie almost whenever they can?

    For the intimidate thing, I didn't realize that a +2 bonus to intimidate would mean a total modifier of +0 due to the penalty to charisma. And if they are intended to be good at this, maybe they could even have +4.
    Quote Originally Posted by Afool View Post
    Another way to put it could be that, because they lack emotions, they also lack the capacity (or have a decreased capacity) to understand emotions, which would make putting up an effective lie harder. Following that, a penalty to Sense Motive might be in theme for the same reason, but adding too many penalties with the LA might be overloading the ship.
    Both good points. If I add a Sense Motive negative, I will probably boost the Intimidate. The reason for the skills is as follows, including discussion from one of my homebrewer friends:

    • Bluff: After seeing peoples arguments for this, I discussed it with my friend. Ultimately, we decided that the negative fit, if for no other reason than because most of them are rather deadpan and monotone, and over all simply non-social. Mind you, we both see situations that this negative would not exist. The main issue then becomes the fact that this negative is honestly very situational. Mostly, it is balanced into existence due to how logical they would be. I'm still open for discussion about it, but for the moment, I'm keeping it in.
    • Intimidate: It's not that they're 'good' at intimidating others, as much as they are unnatural. They have no emotions, and no soul, no aura. People are put off by them, feel uneasy around them (that might bring up problems with Handle Animal checks, but we'll see about that later). I could see upping it, but at the moment I'm not sure about that.
    • Diplomacy: Ultimately, the same reasons why Bluff is a penalty.
    • Sense Motive: I hadn't considered this originally, but it does make sense. Without emotions, they have no basis of understanding. One might know what happy is, from a theoretical point of view, but they might not be able to grasp what it feels like, and what it would drive people to do.


    EDIT

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Because of the +4 Con and abberation type (qualifies for rapidstrike), this template just so happens to be a nice choice for Totemists.
    Ha, that's funny. Informitive, but funny. Glad to see it's useful?
    Last edited by Byzantine; 2013-01-24 at 02:09 AM.
    My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.

    Generation 9
    The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.

    Complete Homebrew:
    Soulless Template

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    I agree with the +1 La being the correct LA, and the CR not changing. The bonuses and penalties are fine for NPC combat, but PC's shouldn't get nice things for free, and some builds would see this as a free buff.

    I also agree with the skill bonuses/penalties, although adding in a bigger bonus to intimidate and a negative to sense motive would not go amiss.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Byzantine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ahon'armahs, Vastulersa
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangles View Post
    I agree with the +1 La being the correct LA, and the CR not changing. The bonuses and penalties are fine for NPC combat, but PC's shouldn't get nice things for free, and some builds would see this as a free buff.

    I also agree with the skill bonuses/penalties, although adding in a bigger bonus to intimidate and a negative to sense motive would not go amiss.
    Good to see that it's getting closer to balanced. Considering the opinions I've seen, I'm definitely considering buffing intimidate more, and handing them a sense motive negative.

    As far as certain builds go, I would like to think that not being able to be raised would do something for it. Especially since ideally, they make for decent physical classes (without souls, they are more rooted to this life and all), but have trouble with socializing (since they think more like a machine than a emotive person).
    My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.

    Generation 9
    The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.

    Complete Homebrew:
    Soulless Template

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Byzantine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ahon'armahs, Vastulersa
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Added -2 to Sense Motive and increased the Intimidate bonus to +6. Thoughts on current balancing?
    Last edited by Byzantine; 2013-01-25 at 11:04 PM.
    My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.

    Generation 9
    The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.

    Complete Homebrew:
    Soulless Template

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Afool's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Penn's Forest
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    The only problem that I could see coming up is the potential for Intimidate cheese, but that would only be situationally gouda so I don't think it would come up very often if at all (level checks can get weird :P).

    I remember someone using Samurai in an optimizer battle to use Intimidate to lock their opponent down and coup-de-gra them, but unless it's just that high optimized of a campaign, I don't think it would get too out of control.

    Numbers wise, having a total bonus to skills equal to the minus seems balanced, but you may want to spread the bonus out a bit to help prevent that goudaness ahead of time. (No idea what skill(s) though sorry. Survival might fit for an undistracted focus on their goal (on that same reasoning Concentration would be thematic), but I'm not as familiar with the skills as I should be)
    Thanks to Teutonic Knight for letting me adopt my Pikeman Avatar.
    A Tricking Website

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Byzantine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ahon'armahs, Vastulersa
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Quote Originally Posted by Afool View Post
    The only problem that I could see coming up is the potential for Intimidate cheese, but that would only be situationally gouda so I don't think it would come up very often if at all (level checks can get weird :P).

    I remember someone using Samurai in an optimizer battle to use Intimidate to lock their opponent down and coup-de-gra them, but unless it's just that high optimized of a campaign, I don't think it would get too out of control.

    Numbers wise, having a total bonus to skills equal to the minus seems balanced, but you may want to spread the bonus out a bit to help prevent that goudaness ahead of time. (No idea what skill(s) though sorry. Survival might fit for an undistracted focus on their goal (on that same reasoning Concentration would be thematic), but I'm not as familiar with the skills as I should be)
    Fair enough. Right now, the net bonus for Intimidate is actually +4, since Soulless have a -4 Cha stat. I've been thinking about lowering it to +5 (for a net of +3). As for the penalty skills (with a net of -4), it's a bit of a sailed ship. I can try to spread out the bonus, but I don't want them to be good at too many things skill wise.

    Survival could be an option, though I don't think I've ever seen Concentration as a racial skill bonus. Though, I might not need to move things around, since Intimidate cheese is rather hard to come by at most optimization levels I've seen. Though, to be fair, I suppose I'd be honoured to see my template used in someone's optimization build.
    My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.

    Generation 9
    The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.

    Complete Homebrew:
    Soulless Template

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    I don't see how this will lead to intimidate cheese. Especially with such a big Cha penalty. I would vote for leaving it as is. This allows them to actually use intimidate as a Cha skill and is probably the only one they will be able too. Unless you grabbed a replace Cha with X ability from somewhere.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Oh great, now I have the urge to stat up an epic-leveled Souless Flarg.... THANKS BYZANTINE
    Spoiler: Those That Came Before
    Show
    Yohalles, the Wanderer
    Lonel, Gentleman Luck
    Jongo, God of Sea-Life

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Byzantine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ahon'armahs, Vastulersa
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangles View Post
    I don't see how this will lead to intimidate cheese. Especially with such a big Cha penalty. I would vote for leaving it as is. This allows them to actually use intimidate as a Cha skill and is probably the only one they will be able too. Unless you grabbed a replace Cha with X ability from somewhere.
    Very well, then. I dub this balanced (at least until it's heavily playtested).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hipho View Post
    Oh great, now I have the urge to stat up an epic-leveled Souless Flarg.... THANKS BYZANTINE
    Hehe. I was wondering when you'd show up.
    My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.

    Generation 9
    The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.

    Complete Homebrew:
    Soulless Template

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine View Post
    Very well, then. I dub this balanced (at least until it's heavily playtested).



    Hehe. I was wondering when you'd show up.
    Sorry it took me so long I've been a bit busy but as soon as I saw your name I just HAD to check it out
    Spoiler: Those That Came Before
    Show
    Yohalles, the Wanderer
    Lonel, Gentleman Luck
    Jongo, God of Sea-Life

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Seems like a well balanced template. I personally wouldn't take it unless a GM were just giving +1 LA's away, and then I would consider it.

    The idea has interesting ramifications, especially in a campaign setting like forgotten realms where the soul itself has extra baggage. It could be a useful way to bypass the negative impact of having no god in faerun. No soul, no problem.

    I would like to see a more dynamic impact from the template though. Have you considered the template converting charisma to - instead of -4. Charisma is often related to soul like power so it stands to reason that no soul = no charisma and like undead any skill based on charisma would be relegated to another stat (maybe con- pulling from the physical instead of the soul).

    As it stands, there isn't anything to out of the ordinary to draw someone to this template. It is just a stat grab and some cheap immunities.


    It also might work better with a ritual mechanic mirroring necropolitan. Maybe you lose your soul in a ritual.
    Last edited by Gotterdammerung; 2013-03-27 at 06:38 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    (Sent here from the PEACH exchange)

    From a balance perspective the CR and LA seem good.

    From a fluff standpoint, the large Con bonus seems a bit out of place. I can see a +2 bonus reflecting the fact that they would see pain as just another sensory input, but +4 is quite high.

    I'd drop the Con bonus to +2 and then add some addition stuff, maybe:

    • +2 Int (Inspired by the film Equilibrium; they're adept and thinking logically and rationally)
    • Relentless: A Soulless dies at -(10+1/4 Max Hp) HP (This is to help prevent death given Con bonus has been redueced)
    • Something like the Paladin of Tyranny's Aura of Despair?

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Byzantine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ahon'armahs, Vastulersa
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: [3.5 PEACH] Soulless Template

    Hm. Possibly. Had to find the Paladin of Tyranny in order to see what you're talking about. I don't know if that would quite fit, but I could see both Relentless and the INT bonus. Would you say both together are overkill?

    I had considered CHA - instead, but it has some interesting and ultimately concept breaking ideas, at least for me. A DM allowing it's use can change it, but in my opinion, you don't have to have a soul in order to have a personality of some sort. The -4 is more because they're off-putting to others.
    My schedule is fairly irregular, but I tend towards the later hours of the day.

    Generation 9
    The first time you see this in a signature, put it in your own signature and add one to the number. This is a social experiment.

    Complete Homebrew:
    Soulless Template

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •