Centaurs as a template (3.5)

[Frathe]

Centaur

Centaurs are always speedier and more stable on their feet than their non-equine counterparts. They are also frequently wilder in temperament and more animalistic in appearance.

Creating a Centaur
"Centaur" is an inherited template that can be added to any humanoid or giant (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
A centaur uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type
The creature’s type changes to monstrous humanoid, and it becomes a quadruped for the purposes of carrying capacity. Its size increases by one category. The creature's reach remains the same as the base creature's, despite its larger size, and it uses weapons as if the base creature's original size. Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Remember to apply the penalties and bonuses from the change in size.

Speed
A centaur's base speed is twice that of the base creature, to a maximum of 60 ft.

Attack
A centaur retains the natural weapons of the base creature as secondary natural weapons, and gains two hooves as primary natural weapons (see table for damage). A centaur is proficient with whatever manufactured weapons the base creature is proficient with. A centaur employing a lance deals double damage when it charges, just as a rider on a mount does.

Centaur Damage
{table=head]Size|Hoof Damage
Fine|1
Diminutive|1d2
Tiny|1d3
Small|1d4
Medium|1d6
Large|1d8
Huge|2d6
Gargantuan|3d6
Colossal|4d6[/table]

Abilities
Increase from the base creature as follows: +6 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom.

Skills
Centaurs receive a +4 bonus to Balance checks, because of their greater stability on four legs, and a -4 penalty to Climb checks, because of the great weight of their equine lower body. A centaur riding another creature must always succeed on a Ride check high enough to ride while standing, because it cannot sit on a mount.

Environment
Same as the base creature or temperate forests or plains.

Challenge Rating
Same as the base creature +2 (minimum 3).

Alignment
Same as the base creature.

Level Adjustment
Same as base creature +3.

[super dark33]

Centaur Minotaur.
Make it happen.

[sengmeng]

Okay, we all know what you mean, but I feel you should state three things explicitly:
They are a quadruped (carrying capacity changes).
They use weapons as if they are a size smaller.
They can be ridden.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Looks pretty good. You forgot to note the reduced reach of Long creatures. Under Size And Type you should state, "The creature's reach remains the same as the base creature's, despite its larger size."

They can be ridden.

I see no need to state this explicitly. The rules don't list many restrictions on riding, any creature (quadruped or not) that has enough carrying capacity can be ridden with the proper saddle.

[Frathe]

Centaur Minotaur.
Make it happen.

I would, but Minotaurs are of the "Monstrous Humanoid" type, and this template as written can't be applied to those. Otherwise you could apply it to a centaur!

[Pyromancer999]

In case you want to expand on this, look at the Tauric template in Savage Species. It does most everything this template does, but for a wider number of creatures for the base.

[Frathe]

In case you want to expand on this, look at the Tauric template in Savage Species. It does most everything this template does, but for a wider number of creatures for the base.

Ah, the general method of combining two creatures did briefly occur to me. Now I feel like this (overly specific one) is kind of useless. Maybe it'd be easier to use? I dunno.

[TuggyNE]

Ah, the general method of combining two creatures did briefly occur to me. Now I feel like this (overly specific one) is kind of useless. Maybe it'd be easier to use? I dunno.

Well, in your defense, Tauric is stupidly broken. However, the basic idea might be a good one if you can solve the problems it had.

[Frathe]

I just added a ban on Ride (how would that work?), and now they can use lances as a mounted rider.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I just added a ban on Ride (how would that work?), and now they can use lances as a mounted rider.

The Dungeon Master's Guide actually goes over what it would be like to have a sentient mount (like a paladin with Leadership and a silver dragon cohor). There's no hard rule, they just say that the GM may want to find something more appropriate (like Diplomacy). Also note that the majority of Ride checks are automatically passed (staying in the saddle is DC 5 or something), and once in a while you make a check to negotiate tricky situations (like jumping a chasm).

I don't think it's too overpowered for one PC to carry another into battle. Especially with a LA as high as +3.

[Frathe]

The Dungeon Master's Guide actually goes over what it would be like to have a sentient mount (like a paladin with Leadership and a silver dragon cohor). There's no hard rule, they just say that the GM may want to find something more appropriate (like Diplomacy). Also note that the majority of Ride checks are automatically passed (staying in the saddle is DC 5 or something), and once in a while you make a check to negotiate tricky situations (like jumping a chasm).

I don't think it's too overpowered for one PC to carry another into battle. Especially with a LA as high as +3.

No, no, you misunderstand; the centaur can't ride someone else.

[super dark33]

Aww....
Not that it would stop me from making a cenminotaur, now called a musclehornbeast.

[Jane_Smith]

Actually, centaurs can still ride specially made chariots, which would be under the ride skill. In addition, they could be "Carried" by large flying creatures such as rocs, etc, in a way of a mount. So don't ban ride, simply state there complex forms require even more complex ways for the skill to be of use, and the money, time, and effort involved would be wasted when you are your own mount essentially.

Speaking of, shouldn't centaurs be treated as "mounted" at all times and possessing mounted combat only to meet the prerequisite of other mounted feats, such as mounted archery, overrun, etc? I always thought it was strange, if a human on horseback has trouble firing a bow while moving, then why in the heck doesn't a centaur?

[RedWarlock]

Because a rider can focus on just shooting or attacking, while the mount focuses on the running. It's not about the physical shapes, it's about the mind and focus on each separate task.

A centaur still only has one head, so his eyes need to stay more on the ground, watching where he's going. That's what taking the full chain for spring attack/etc represents, learning to coordinate your actions to move and attack and keep moving.

[Raimun]

You do realise this would allow anthropomorphic horse centaurs?

... or anthropomorphic wolf, bat or octopus centaurs.

[RedWarlock]

You do realise this would allow anthropomorphic horse centaurs?

... or anthropomorphic wolf, bat or octopus centaurs.

Actually, no, for the same reason minotaurs can't work. The Anthro template makes monstrous humanoids, and this can only be applied to humanoids.

[Raimun]

Actually, no, for the same reason minotaurs can't work. The Anthro template makes monstrous humanoids, and this can only be applied to humanoids.

Oh, that's right. Good.

Kobold centaurs are still valid.

[Frathe]

Actually, centaurs can still ride specially made chariots, which would be under the ride skill. In addition, they could be "Carried" by large flying creatures such as rocs, etc, in a way of a mount. So don't ban ride, simply state there complex forms require even more complex ways for the skill to be of use, and the money, time, and effort involved would be wasted when you are your own mount essentially.

Good point, although I didn't realize being "carried" by a roc would use the Ride skill. Are you sure about that? I guess it might, just to keep yourself from falling. Do you have a cite for that?

Now that I look more at Ride, a centaur (in a chariot or whatever) would pretty much always have to meet a DC 40 Epic use check, "The character can stand upon his or her mount in combat." I might just mention that; it's hardly worth trying to meet.

Out of curiosity, are there any bans on riding creatures smaller than yourself? It seems logical, but I don't see a mention under the skill. Would that count as "ill suited"?

Edit: Just changed the ban on centaurs riding other things to an obligatory DC 40 check because they pretty much have to stand while riding (see epic uses of Ride).

[Deepbluediver]

This looks pretty straightforward. I would actually like to see more templates for possibilities with other creatures.
Things like a dwarf-rhino centuar or a giant-elephant centuar.


I'll get check out the Tauric template in the meantime, but how exactly is it broken? Overly powerful or too weak?

[Frathe]

This looks pretty straightforward. I would actually like to see more templates for possibilities with other creatures.
Things like a dwarf-rhino centuar or a giant-elephant centuar.


I'll get check out the Tauric template in the meantime, but how exactly is it broken? Overly powerful or too weak?

Interesting! I might work on those. Rhinotaur and... pachytaur? Elephantaur? Not exactly sure of names, but the idea could work. Could the dwarf-rhino still somehow have a horn attack?

I can't actually answer your question about Tauric because I don't (currently) have access to the books in question. Maybe tuggyne can answer more.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Interesting! I might work on those. Rhinotaur and... pachytaur? Elephantaur? Not exactly sure of names, but the idea could work. Could the dwarf-rhino still somehow have a horn attack?

I can't actually answer your question about Tauric because I don't (currently) have access to the books in question. Maybe tuggyne can answer more.

The template from (I believe) Savage Species was for mixing any humanoid and animal. It didn't give a Level Adjustment, obviously, and it did more or less what you would expect such a template to do.

[TuggyNE]

Edit: Just changed the ban on centaurs riding other things to an obligatory DC 40 check because they pretty much have to stand while riding (see epic uses of Ride).

Please rephrase that to omit the specific DC; in my opinion, DC 40 was way too high for standing on your mount in the first place, since it's one of the simplest trick riding stunts possible*, so just referencing standing on the mount is all you should include.

*It's actually easier than hanging by the side of a horse for cover, which is given as DC 15. Yeah.

The template from (I believe) Savage Species was for mixing any humanoid and animal. It didn't give a Level Adjustment, obviously, and it did more or less what you would expect such a template to do.

IIRC the problem was that half of the creature didn't contribute any CR increase to the final product. (I don't remember whether it contributed RHD even.) As such, it was kind of messed up, because you could load up a powerful creature and then slap a kobold or whatever on it to get a really low-CR final.

My memory may be a bit faulty, though, because I had thought it had (or could have) an LA, which was obviously the most broken part of it, since again only one side contributed to it.

[Frathe]

Sure. The specific DC mention is gone.

[TuggyNE]

Awesome.

My memory may be a bit faulty, though, because I had thought it had (or could have) an LA, which was obviously the most broken part of it, since again only one side contributed to it.

Unfortunately, my memory seems to have been correct, and Tauric does have an LA.

[Frathe]

Wait, they seriously just had a flat bonus to the humanoid's LA? Huh.

As a poorly thought-out fix for Tauric, I might propose using the monster's HD as LA added to the humanoid. A horse would be +3 LA, and a unicorn or Large Monstrous spider base would be +4. But I'm afraid that doesn't really account for special abilities or traits.

Edit: But that takes out a lot of potential bottom halves; under this scheme, a Dire Tiger, for example, would be an unworkable +16 LA. Then again, a lot of those bottom halves are high-powered things like a Triceratops that you might not want to give PCs. Still, that's not a reasonable number.

Edit: Instead, maybe add CR + 1 as LA. Horse is +2, Large Monstrous spider is +3, Unicorn is +4, and Dire Tiger is the high but slightly more reasonable +9.

Edit: Sorry for so many edits, but this might actually work. Divide the nonhumanoid creature's CR by 3, add 2, and round down. CR/3+2. Horse: 2, Large Monstrous Spider: 2, Unicorn: 3, Tiger: 3, Dire Tiger: 4. That's my LA fix for the Tauric template. You add it to the base humanoid's LA.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

If you're a GM, making a tauric creature is easy because you only have to assign a challenge rating. If it's going to be a PC then you need a well-planned level adjustment, and at that point you'd best build a specific race and/or use a race-building system like Pathfinder's.

[lunaramblings]

I really rather like this if only for the ability to fit a centaur into most normal adventuring parties by using a Gnome or Halfling to get a smaller size.

[Frathe]

I really rather like this if only for the ability to fit a centaur into most normal adventuring parties by using a Gnome or Halfling to get a smaller size.

Or, like Raimun said, a kobold!

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I really rather like this if only for the ability to fit a centaur into most normal adventuring parties by using a Gnome or Halfling to get a smaller size.

I already made one of those. Text search this for "forest centaur":

http://pastebin.com/R25Qz7BZ