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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Redcloak missed one

    perhaps this is a super slow response to something everyone else already figured out, but Redcloak has made a critical mistake.

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html

    He didn't stop niu. judging from the fact that he either has or would kill anyone one this plane, loyal followers included, my suspicion is he has no idea a message sneaked out. When the order and xykon meet, if they happen to exchange words and banter, as so often is the case, the subject of xykon's phylactery would be a likely choice. As a result, either Hinjo or the order could unintentionally fill xykon in on the fact that red cloak had been duplicitous with the phylactery and its recovery.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by theinsulabot; 2013-01-26 at 08:13 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by theinsulabot;
    so before roland shows up and six guns us all, i would just like to say.....

    six guns is not actually a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland St. Jude;
    Sheriff: Six-gunned!
    all night guard of the fan club

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    They knew that Redcloak recovered the phylactery. They did not know that Redcloak switched it for a fake which took place later after Niu was already out of the area.
    FTDWIR

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Sorry if I've missed something, but all Niu knows is that Redcloak got the phylactery back from the resistance... which, if I recall correctly, is exactly what Redcloak told Xykon.

    Presumably she was well out of there before Redcloak's comment about secrecy (indeed, if she wasn't, there doesn't seem to be any way she could have avoided the attention of her enemies).

    So, as far as I can see, there's nothing Niu could tell the Order that would jeopardize Redcloak.

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Indeed, I find myself wondering what, exactly, the big secret was that caused Redcloak to leave his spy dead, since the story he told Xykon was "I crushed the Resistance and recovered your phylactery" anyway.

    The only thing I can think of is, "Very explicit orders to call for the Supreme Leader, not Xykon or anyone else, when the phylactery is discovered."
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareasint View Post
    They knew that Redcloak recovered the phylactery. They did not know that Redcloak switched it for a fake which took place later after Niu was already out of the area.


    I know, but redcloak would have executed his follower at the hide out and disintegrated the corpse of one of his race's master craftsmen to keep the details secret. My guess it took him a while to completely recast everything he needed to on the amulet so has a blank of time between retrieving the real amulet, and presenting the fake to xykon he is trying desperately to prevent anyone from revealing.

    admittedly I don't play DnD so I don't know how long it takes to pile on as many enchantments as the amulet has on it, but I'm guessing its long enough to be noticeable.
    Last edited by theinsulabot; 2013-01-26 at 08:30 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by theinsulabot;
    so before roland shows up and six guns us all, i would just like to say.....

    six guns is not actually a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland St. Jude;
    Sheriff: Six-gunned!
    all night guard of the fan club

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    I wonder what the big reveal is this thread is for. Someone escaped and carries information that was not meant to get out. D'uh? Of course that was not planned and I think the comic was pretty obvious about that. Niu got screenlight and speech panels.

    Xykon and the elves/Azurites surely won't talk but even if they did, what could they exchange?
    Elf/Azurite: "Well, your goblin killed The Resistance and brought the phylactery back to you!!!1"
    Xykon: "I noticed that already. Energy Drain".

    Why the spy had to die seems a bit overcareful to me, but I think Redcloak simply does not want to make any mistake. Even a "Report to me, not to Xykon" would be no surprise. If Xykon learned about that order, he'd ask Redcloak "Yeah, why should he report to me? It's your job to puzz around and govern this piece of rubble. I go play Twister."
    Redcloak cannot be certain the spy did not learn something with the Resistance he does not know about, so he removes that risk. Redcloak is simply very thorough given the risks his plan involves.
    Last edited by Winter; 2013-01-26 at 08:29 AM.
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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Quote Originally Posted by theinsulabot View Post
    I know, but redcloak would have executed his follower at the hide out and disintegrated the corpse of one of his race's master craftsmen to keep the details secret.
    That's no surprise at all as the craftsman knows about the two phylacteries. It's a completely different case than the spy, as the former knows "a lot that could get Redcloak killed" and the latter, as far as we can oversee it, had no dangerous knowledge at all.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Even if Redcloak was trying to hide lost time, I'm having a real hard time seeing how Niu's survival would lead to it being revealed. "Foul lich! Your goblin slaughtered the resistance at exactly 4:52 on Thursday!" "Wait, 4:52? Why didn't you bring the phylactery to me until 6:30, Redcloak? And yes, I memorized the exact time you brought it to me!"
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    That's no surprise at all as the craftsman knows about the two phylacteries. It's a completely different case than the spy, as the former knows "a lot that could get Redcloak killed" and the latter, as far as we can oversee it, had no dangerous knowledge at all.

    that kind of supports my case since RC actually said flat out he would have executed the spy, implying his information was to the point that RC would kill a goblin in cold blood to keep his secrets.

    As to why, again, my theory is that attaching like a thousand abjurations to the fake took RC a few hours and he is dealing with the fact that he cant answer what he was doing during that time by preventing the knowledge of exactly when the raid took place from getting to xykon. if he assaults the hide out in the morning, spends the afternoon making the fake look real and then tells xykon he took the base in the evening, he covers his tracks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Even if Redcloak was trying to hide lost time, I'm having a real hard time seeing how Niu's survival would lead to it being revealed. "Foul lich! Your goblin slaughtered the resistance at exactly 4:52 on Thursday!" "Wait, 4:52? Why didn't you bring the phylactery to me until 6:30, Redcloak? And yes, I memorized the exact time you brought it to me!"
    you don't think something like "on the morning of so and so we heard the phylactery had been recovered" might not cause xykon to wonder why he didn't hear of it till that night?

    Xykon, in certain situations is actually quite intelligent. he is already provably suspicious of RC right now, such a reveal would be very unfortunate, from RC's perspective.
    Last edited by theinsulabot; 2013-01-26 at 08:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by theinsulabot;
    so before roland shows up and six guns us all, i would just like to say.....

    six guns is not actually a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland St. Jude;
    Sheriff: Six-gunned!
    all night guard of the fan club

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Even if Redcloak was trying to hide lost time, I'm having a real hard time seeing how Niu's survival would lead to it being revealed. "Foul lich! Your goblin slaughtered the resistance at exactly 4:52 on Thursday!" "Wait, 4:52? Why didn't you bring the phylactery to me until 6:30, Redcloak? And yes, I memorized the exact time you brought it to me!"
    Remember? I also took the liberty of putting it on a new chain as well. And in a handsome faux leather carrying case.

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Quote Originally Posted by theinsulabot View Post
    you don't think something like "on the morning of so and so we heard the phylactery had been recovered" might not cause xykon to wonder why he didn't hear of it till that night?
    It might, but the time involved was clearly nowhere near that long.

    Tsukiko came to Redcloak's study (...just before Redcloak got back, and well before he started casting spells on the fake phylactery...) already knowing the phylactery had been discovered, and its discovery reported to Xykon. Redcloak went straight to his study with the phylactery, and confronted Tsukiko there. After killing her, he started casting spells on the fake phylactery as he walked to bring it to Xykon. Presumably he cast a few spells off-panel, between saying the word "Greater--" and reaching the creature in the darkness, but unless you're suggesting that from Redcloak's study to the creature in the darkness' box is a walk that takes multiple hours...and even if you are, Xykon would know that there were lost hours between the phylactery being found, stolen, and recovered. (And if there was any error in concealing this hypothetical time-skip, it would be in saying that he killed Tsukiko ten minutes ago, if Tsukiko actually disappeared hours ago.)

    (I also wonder how long you're thinking Jirix would have survived Xykon's rage.)
    Last edited by Kish; 2013-01-26 at 09:18 AM.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Nuh-uh. Her escape was all according to plan.

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    The way I see it, Redcloak killed the spy to cover all possible bases. He didn't want there to be even the slightest chance of Xykon noticing anything is amiss. If the spy had survived, there was a chance that he might slip something that would make Xykon suspicious - a small chance, but still more than Redcloak was willing to allow. Niu's survival, on the other hand has no relevance to Redcloak's plans.
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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Quote Originally Posted by theinsulabot View Post
    as to why, again, my theory is that attaching like a thousand abjurations to the fake took RC a few hours and he is dealing with the fact that he cant answer what he was doing during that time by preventing the knowledge of exactly when the raid took place from getting to xykon. if he assaults the hide out in the morning, spends the afternoon making the fake look real and then tells xykon he took the base in the evening, he covers his tracks.
    A) We only see Redcloak casting prepared (memorized or on scrolls) spells on the go.
    B) You mean he wants to hide a "a few hour-gap" from the Xykon that had arrived just minutes ago (enough to make Jirix get blue, but not enough to make him die). We're looking at a max of 10 minutes. How could Redcloak have brought the thing to Xykon earlier when Xykon wasn't even in town (or on the plane).

    I'm seeing no reason at all to kill the Spy but to be "really cautious". Note I understand Redcloak taking that approach but we have not seen any better reason so far.
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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    The only danger having the spy around would cause is if he somehow noticed that the phylactery Xykon had was not the one he recovered--and the chances of that ever happening is practically zero. In fact, that whole section almost suggests the Giant changed his mind halfway through--for instance, why was Redcloak so sure to make Tsukiko's wights eat her, then themselves, then burn the remnants in the fireplace, only to blurt out that he killed her as soon as he walked into Xykon's presence? Never have understood that.

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    The only danger having the spy around would cause is if he somehow noticed that the phylactery Xykon had was not the one he recovered--and the chances of that ever happening is practically zero. In fact, that whole section almost suggests the Giant changed his mind halfway through--for instance, why was Redcloak so sure to make Tsukiko's wights eat her, then themselves, then burn the remnants in the fireplace, only to blurt out that he killed her as soon as he walked into Xykon's presence? Never have understood that.
    Because Tsukiko figured out that the ritual to control the Snarl doesn't work as Redcloak told Xykon it worked. He couldn't have taken a chance on her being raised.

    Edit - the wights are also intelligent and were present for the conversation. They could also have repeated the conversation to someone. Unlikely, but possible.
    Last edited by Koo Rehtorb; 2013-01-26 at 11:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    In fact, that whole section almost suggests the Giant changed his mind halfway through--for instance, why was Redcloak so sure to make Tsukiko's wights eat her, then themselves, then burn the remnants in the fireplace, only to blurt out that he killed her as soon as he walked into Xykon's presence? Never have understood that.
    Without Tsukiko, the wights are mindless undead and will go on a rampage, killing half of Gobtopia.

    However, Wights are controlled by the Wight that created them, so by giving them all an order to consume themselves in reverse order (so his order would never be jeapardized by the one who was fulfilling it dying and control transferring) he ensured that the wights were never able to threaten the city.
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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Leaving the spy alive allows Xykon to find out that Redcloak knew the location of the resistance for months, it also allows Gobbotopia citizens to know that he didn't do a thing about them during that time while they acted as a murderous terrorist organization.
    I would say that killing the spy had very little to do with the phylactery.

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Leaving the spy alive allows Xykon to find out that Redcloak knew the location of the resistance for months,
    Xykon does not care about the Resistance killing some goblins. In fact, letting the Resistance exist while knowing about it and thus letting the Azurites and Elves live in the illusion they are in control is actually the right strategic solution. If Redcloak had wiped out the Resistance earlier, the opposition would just have made another attempt and this time, they might be more careful or just stay hidden by sheer luck.

    Redcloak stomped them in the right moment. Xykon would agree. And Xykon would even more agree it was way funnier and meaner to let them think they won before stomping them.

    I strongly doubt he'd get in trouble over this.

    The point is: He is not risking anything. Therefore, the Spy had to go.

    As for Tsukiko: Redcloak had to explain why Tsukiko could not come along after Xykon explicitly said he wanted her. He could not stay silent, he wanted to move on smoothly. No investiagtion, no thinking. So he solved the issue then and there in the fastest possible way (and he was sure it'd work, given what he knows of Xykon).
    That he destroyed the wights is also no surprise: They are powerful and uncontrollable undead (weapons, in his mind) and he can't have them run around and kill goblins.
    Also, as it was already pointed out, they listened to the conversation and as such had to get turned into dust as well.
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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    Xykon does not care about the Resistance killing some goblins.
    The second consideration dancrilis brings up might have more weight. Redcloak doesn't want to jeopardize his standing in the eyes of Gobbotopians. He likes being their hero, if not necessarily their supreme leader, and he wants to retire there when the Plan is complete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Redcloak doesn't want to jeopardize his standing in the eyes of Gobbotopians.
    He is by definition as the High Priest of the Dark One the boss. So I doubt this plays a big role.

    And for the argument how Xykon takes this or that the standing of RC with Gobbotopia plays no role at all.

    I think what made Redcloak to think he was forced to kill the spy has to be a Xykon-interaction, if it was just about Gobbotopia, he'd not have killed him (and I fail to see where the Spy living could pose a problem for Redcloaks standing in Gobbotopia). Whatever this was about, I am fairly certain it was about Xykon.
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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    It's simple tidying up. The spy was ordered to report directly to Redcloak and only Redcloak, even though squashing the Resistance had been assigned to Tsukiko (and Jirix has assumed general command of the city). That discrepancy alone could cause someone to become suspicious—someone like Tsukiko herself, since he didn't know he was about to kill her when he made those comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    In fact, that whole section almost suggests the Giant changed his mind halfway through--for instance, why was Redcloak so sure to make Tsukiko's wights eat her, then themselves, then burn the remnants in the fireplace, only to blurt out that he killed her as soon as he walked into Xykon's presence? Never have understood that.
    Speak With Dead requires a mostly-intact corpse in order to function, as does Raise Dead. Redcloak drastically reduced the possibility that Xykon could question Tsukiko, the craftsman, or even the wights about his scheme by eliminating their corpses. As far as spur-of-the-moment cover-ups go, it's pretty effective.

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    The only danger having the spy around would cause is if he somehow noticed that the phylactery Xykon had was not the one he recovered--and the chances of that ever happening is practically zero. In fact, that whole section almost suggests the Giant changed his mind halfway through--for instance, why was Redcloak so sure to make Tsukiko's wights eat her, then themselves, then burn the remnants in the fireplace, only to blurt out that he killed her as soon as he walked into Xykon's presence? Never have understood that.


    Having her own undead kill her could've just been sadism acting.

    EDIT: ...but apparently not. Wanting Tsukiko dead on a visceral as well as pragmatic level probably helped, though.
    Last edited by AgentofHellfire; 2013-01-26 at 07:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    I had assumed that killing the spy was intended to preserve the spy's tradecraft from disclosure, as in so many spy novels. We now have the Word Of The Giant otherwise (... unless of course that is just further protection of tradecraft ... if a sufficiently high-level thief can swipe a diamond from the Cast Page, can a sufficiently high-level spy mine the forum for information?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I've said this before, but the fact that you don't know why I wrote something a certain way does not mean that I don't know why I wrote something a certain way.
    I know that, which is why I said it "almost" suggested you changed your mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    Without Tsukiko, the wights are mindless undead and will go on a rampage, killing half of Gobtopia.
    Wights are not mindless. They are unlikely to go on a rampage when they can very easily use strategy and tactics to ensure that they destroy ALL of Gobbotopia.

    Of course, Tsukiko's wights were a tad dense on the Intelligence scale, or shall we say... childlike. But they're definitely a few grades above simple zombies, and given a chance to determine their own fates, I'm sure they would have come up with some sort of plan to ensure a steady supply of fresh bodies to eat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Wights are not mindless. [...]
    Whatever you say there is an even stronger reason for Redcloak to destroy them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    Whatever you say there is an even stronger reason for Redcloak to destroy them.
    Yes... your point being? I wasn't arguing against destroying them.
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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    It was stated that Redcloak knew that the Resistance planted a spy in the goblin ranks. Presumably he let this spy live so that the resistance could steal the phylactery (which he could steal back, giving him a chance to have some alone time with it). The goblin spy probably knew about the resistance spy (since everyone in the resistance did) and Xykon would flip a lid and a half if he knew that Redcloak literally let the resistance have the phylactery for no reason

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    Default Re: Redcloak missed one

    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    It was stated that Redcloak knew that the Resistance planted a spy in the goblin ranks. Presumably he let this spy live so that the resistance could steal the phylactery (which he could steal back, giving him a chance to have some alone time with it). The goblin spy probably knew about the resistance spy (since everyone in the resistance did) and Xykon would flip a lid and a half if he knew that Redcloak literally let the resistance have the phylactery for no reason
    ... what?

    Ok, first of all, the Resistance didn't steal the Phylactory, Vaarsuvius did.

    Second of all, even if the Resistance did... why would he go through all that work in order to get some alone time with his own holy symbol? He already HAS infinite alone time with it!

    Xykon WOULD flip because Redcloak WOULD be doing it for NO reason.
    Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!

    English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Thank you, FujinAkari.
    Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post

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