(PF) Low Tier Fixes attempt

[Ailowynn]

I'm guessing this thread goes here. It may go in the 3.5/PF thread. correct me if I'm wrong.

This is my very first attempt at any major overhauls of the pathfinder rules, (or most any rules) so please be gentle

Anyways, I have been having a bit of trouble in a pathfinder campaign that I am running, in that the characters vary hugely in power level; and I don't want anyone feeling left out or underpowered. The main problem is a sorcerer--technically he's quite unoptimized (all blasty blasty) but that's a big problem--you see, the campaign is focused mostly on defeating large amounts of enemies, usually NPCs, so they are usually low enough level that sorcerer's spells always hit and dish out massive damage. Moreover, the blasty blasty approach means no buff spells, making the rest of the party feel a bit left out.

But I digress. The point is, I've taken it upon myself to try to fix a few of the low-tier classes in Pathfinder; specifically the ones in the core rulebook. I intend to do more later. Basically, I tried to help the melee-focused classes have a bit more variety and, as you can probably see, to escape the problem of "I can pwn the caster as soon as I get up to him!!!/...the caster casts fly/M***** ********!". Some were given more ability outside of combat, but the fighter in particular I want to make into the most powerful one-trick pony in the game (like what they should be: GODS OF WAR!!!), because I don't know what they would be good out outside of combat.

Please tell me how I did, what else I can do, and any suggestions

Cheers!

(oh, right, you need the link
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...-dtHlypzA/edit )

[Zale]

Flying Kick is odd, because unless something changed in PF, casters don't "Maintain" spells.

It would make more sense for it to force a Fly check or fall.


Same for Mage-Killer.

[Ailowynn]

Flying Kick is odd, because unless something changed in PF, casters don't "Maintain" spells.

It would make more sense for it to force a Fly check or fall.


Same for Mage-Killer.

I guess I was probably unclear XD...I was trying to say something along the lines of spells without a duration of instantaneous. Spells that last over multiple turns. But, yes, a Fly check would also make good sense...I may have to change that.

[Yitzi]

but the fighter in particular I want to make into the most powerful one-trick pony in the game (like what they should be: GODS OF WAR!!!), because I don't know what they would be good out outside of combat.

I'd advise against making the fighter into a one-trick pony; keep him combat-focused, but he should have a lot of options in combat.

[Jormengand]

Instead of specific sizes, make the monk count as X size categories larger - he might already be a large monk.

[Ailowynn]

I'd advise against making the fighter into a one-trick pony; keep him combat-focused, but he should have a lot of options in combat.

That's what I meant, his "one trick" being KILL EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING--just not too good outside of combat.

Instead of specific sizes, make the monk count as X size categories larger - he might already be a large monk.

Good catch. Will fix.

[Yitzi]

That's what I meant, his "one trick" being KILL EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING--just not too good outside of combat.

Usually when someone says "one trick" they mean something like an ubercharger or a tripper; i.e. one specific methodology of killing things (or of solving problems otherwise; a diplomancer build is also a one-trick build.)

In essence, a one-trick build is one that in any action either uses all its abilities or none of them, with no room in between. Don't have a fighter be that.

[Ailowynn]

Usually when someone says "one trick" they mean something like an ubercharger or a tripper; i.e. one specific methodology of killing things (or of solving problems otherwise; a diplomancer build is also a one-trick build.)

In essence, a one-trick build is one that in any action either uses all its abilities or none of them, with no room in between. Don't have a fighter be that.

Ahhh...I always felt it meant something more broad, like useful inside but not outside of combat, or good at hunting but not melee. I definitely don't plan on sticking the fighter in a permanent rut, I only meant that I wanted the fighter to be excellent in combat but not much else.

[Ailowynn]

Alright, I've made a few edits and clarified a few things. My hope is that this gets these classes right around Tier 3. And so I ask: do you fellow (more experienced) playgrounders think that I acheived that goal?

[Jormengand]

Alright, I've made a few edits and clarified a few things. My hope is that this gets these classes right around Tier 3. And so I ask: do you fellow (more experienced) playgrounders think that I acheived that goal?

No. You're clawing the underside of tier 4 (I do one thing well). Any of those classes goes against an inquisitor or a magus then they're going down fast.

[Ailowynn]

No. You're clawing the underside of tier 4 (I do one thing well). Any of those classes goes against an inquisitor or a magus then they're going down fast.

Really? ...curses. Making them more powerful feels like...too much somehow. Maybe I should just check out a 20th level wizard statblock to make myself feel better about it

Anyway, did the barbarian at least get nearish to Tier 3? I know it's generally considered a Tier 4 class, so I didn't think I needed to change it too much. Oh and same with the ranger.

But here's my problem: how do you make the fighter able to do anything well other than fight? Or should I just go for the original plan of making them gods of war?

[Yitzi]

Really? ...curses. Making them more powerful feels like...too much somehow. Maybe I should just check out a 20th level wizard statblock to make myself feel better about it

Anyway, did the barbarian at least get nearish to Tier 3? I know it's generally considered a Tier 4 class, so I didn't think I needed to change it too much. Oh and same with the ranger.

If you want to make the barbarian and ranger tier 3, you'll have to give them plenty of abilities outside their usual specialties. For the ranger that should be quite doable; for barbarian you'll need to boost the survivalist approach.

But here's my problem: how do you make the fighter able to do anything well other than fight? Or should I just go for the original plan of making them gods of war?

I think your original plan is good; it'll be tier 4 (or broken tier 4 if you make them too powerful; if a level 10 fighter can beat a level 15 wizard without effort, you've gone too far), but tier 3 and strong tier 4 can play fairly well together.

[Ailowynn]

Alright, I added on some more to the fighter and gave the barbarian and the ranger a few bonuses to skills, and a few other bits to help out in other situations. I took the monk out to redo it--I don't think I gave it the attention it deserves.

[Ailowynn]

Alright, made a couple more edits. Still haven't made it to the monk, but are the rest anywhere near Tier 3?

[Ailowynn]

Oh, also, I had an idea that may or may not work but could possibly to something: what if, to cast a spell, you had to make a check of some sort? Probably DC 10+Spell level, +/- additional modifiers (basically things that would force a concentration check). Dunno what the check would be -- skill check, ability check, caster level check? I know it would also hurt some Tier 3 classes, but it might be able to reign in Tier 1 and 2. What does the playground think?