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  1. - Top - End - #211
    Troll in the Playground
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    Apr 2011
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    The Great White North

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    Sorry folks, but I'll be unable to complete quality judging by the deadline.
    Not a problem, Ponies.

    ...though a table would be much appreciated, O Equine Master of Tables.

  2. - Top - End - #212
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Venger's Avatar

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    Feb 2011
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    AARRRRRGGG! I always always always make that mistake (and I just got corrected two minutes ago!).

    Anyways, I was referring to Oozemaster. Slime Lord is cool because it's one of the only playable materials related to Ghaunadaur. Unfortunately it's even worse than Oozemaster. Everything you can do with it can be duplicated better by other classes. At least with some of the weak classes out there you can do unique (if not powerfull) things with them.
    lol. happens to the best of us.

    okay. slime lord is awesome. I don't know what you're talking about. unlike oozemaster, it doesn't require casting to get in, so you won't have that thorn in your side as far as IC goes. (oozemaster's other incredibly awkward prerequisites aside)

    it may not give the ruinous no save con damage that oozemaster does, but its paralysis is arguably just as good. As long as you focus on your con, people shouldn't be able to make the save, at least not easily.

    charming gaze is also a gaze attack, so even though your cha probably sucks, you'll be beamspamming so many people at once every time you use it (1/day/lvl!) that you'll eventually hit someone

    one more advantage that slimelord gives over oozemaster is actual immunity to critical hits. while oozemaster does give light fortification, and its capstone gives a variety of ooze traits (including immunity to mind affecting, one huge advantage it has over slimelord) it never actually becomes immune to crits.

    slime lord also gives you alter self at will. if you don't think that's awesome, then I don't really know what more to say.

    I'd be pretty happy with either ingredient, but I'd lean slightly towards slimelord, since SIs that involve casting limit chefs' choices more.
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

    Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
    Iron Chef Medals!
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  3. - Top - End - #213
    Banned
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2012

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Nearly posted a potential build there, all i can say is I Want slime lord please. Yes yes yes.
    Last edited by Vaz; 2013-03-01 at 07:44 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #214
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Jun 2009
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Final[?] Tallies After Two Judges (After Disputes) as I'm assuming all disputes have seen judges' responses.

    {table=head]Entry|Place|Total
    Briggs|Gold|34
    Jef Costello|Silver|31
    Tacgnol|Bronze|30.75
    Hammond Shadowstrike|Fourth|28.75
    Nightman|Fourth|28.75
    Mortumdal|Sixth|26.25
    Krkitckl|Seventh|26
    Geula Abishag|Seventh|26
    Ynolar Darkheart|Ninth|25.25
    Xen'kra Torkak|Tenth|24.5
    Saleed|Eleventh|23.25
    Keeliani Amaruak|Twelfth|20.75
    Munemasa|Thirteenth|19.75[/table]

    For those of you playing along at home and asking about psionic Secret Ingredients, we had War Mind back in Round XII.

    Again, sorry for the delay but RL was a bit of a pinch this week between a huge launch at work and a few other things. I hope to participate in Kuulvheysoon's first go as Chairman in some way shape or form. Congrats on an awesome run to Amphetryon, and we'll be glad to have you back on the participant's side of things. Kuulvheysoon, thanks for taking up the role of chairman!
    Last edited by OMG PONIES; 2013-03-01 at 07:33 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Ponies, the Kim Karsdashian of GITP.
    This is what happens when they let me DM:
    Beyond the Horizon IC / OOC
    A Time to Die: Alpha IC / Bravo IC / OOC

  5. - Top - End - #215
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Dec 2006

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Surprised nobody's clamoring for Thief of Life, though it is likely too soon on the heels of another stealth-oriented PrC.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV. Play as me!


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  6. - Top - End - #216
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    Bellona

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    Sorry folks, but I'll be unable to complete quality judging by the deadline.
    Sorry to hear that! I was looking forward to your thoughts. Still, I definitely understand real life getting in the way.

    I know foolofsound mentioned possibly having results today, so we may be waiting on one more. Even if not, two detailed judgings and responses is pretty nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Surprised nobody's clamoring for Thief of Life, though it is likely too soon on the heels of another stealth-oriented PrC.
    I've always hoped to see Thief of Life, but I agree, it might be nice to do a non-stealth PC first. Also, all this discussion of Slimelord and Oozemaster reminds me of the various BoVD prestige classes, like Thrall of Juiblex. And some of the Planar Handbook prestige classes could use some IC treatment - Cipher Adept comes to mind.

    Man, there's still a LOT of mostly terrible prestige classes out there.....
    Optimization Showcase in the Playground

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    IC LXXVI: Talos
    IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
    IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
    IC XLV: Dead Mists
    IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
    IC XXXIX: AM-1468
    IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
    IC XXX: Jal Filius

  7. - Top - End - #217
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Quote Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles View Post
    Man, there's still a LOT of mostly terrible prestige classes out there.....
    I like to tell myself that WotC did it on purpose, knowing that we'd take up the challenge of optimizing them anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Ponies, the Kim Karsdashian of GITP.
    This is what happens when they let me DM:
    Beyond the Horizon IC / OOC
    A Time to Die: Alpha IC / Bravo IC / OOC

  8. - Top - End - #218
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    The Viscount's Avatar

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    Dec 2012

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    Disagree about "psionics"
    Cryokineticst does indeed require psionics, but doesn't actually, y'know, advance manifestation in any way. It provides exactly as much psionic support as shadowblade does (read: none)

    What are other people hungry for come saturday? I was kind of thinking about mountebank.
    Silly me, assuming that a class that requires psionics would advance the selfsame psionics. No wonder there were so few brave souls who submitted builds.

    I'm down for any one of the three oozy classes, though I must again put in my suggestion for Fleet Runner of Elhonna.
    Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
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  9. - Top - End - #219
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    8wGremlin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Thief of life, could be good
    A real life psionic class could be good
    Not very interested in ooze

    Or

    Silver key?
    Last edited by 8wGremlin; 2013-03-01 at 03:12 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #220
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Xen’kar Torkak, The Shadow's Fall
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    -Originality: (4)
    --Positive: Elves and their subraces tend to be underused. Backstory is well-written, if a little cliche. Drow, Scorpion Wraith, and Shadowblade are thematically and mechanically linked, and linked into backstory. Racial prestige class.
    --Negative: Dark template was highly expected (even from an item). Tome of Battle dip. No particularly interesting capabilities/classes.
    -Power: (3.5)
    --Positive: Able to contribute to combat very well, and exploration competently. High damage output plus stat damage, plus a few sundry debuffs. Shadowblade directly contributes to both combat and exploration abilities.
    --Negative: Unable to meaningfully contribute to information gathering, partial ability to contribute to social encounters. Poison ineffective against many high-level enemies. Only three uses of SS/day against immune enemies. Cannot effectively contribute to more than a single encounter per day against undead, elementals, or constructs (problematic in a tomb adventure, for instance).
    -Elegance: (4)
    --Positive: Scorpion Wraith flows into Shadowblade well. Fairly clean advancement. Build comes online when expected. Full advancement of both prestige classes.
    --Negative: Three different sorts of “warrior” in five levels, with Swordsage not taken as a block. Minor item dependency (Collar). Launching item would require special DM permission, though the item is not central to the build.
    -Use of Secret Ingredient: (4.5)
    --Positive: Full Shadowblade advancement taken. Scorpion Wraith and Shadowblade fit well together thematically. Shadowblade directly complements the builds main strengths.
    --Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
    -Total: (16)
    -Final Comments: I rather like this build; it manages to be highly capable without sacrificing flavor and without appearing overly ‘tweaky’. I could easily see this build be used as-is in a lower-op game without drawing DM ire. My main complaint against the build is that is has relatively poor ability to contribute outside of combat and stealth situations, particularly because it lacks strong alternative methods for dealing with Lifesense, Mindsight, and Poison/Precision immune creatures (which are too often one in the same). I also frowned upon the use of three different ‘warrior’ classes in less than five levels; Drow Fighter could have easily been replaced with Swordsage without unduly decreasing combat ability, while making the build feel more natural. Overall, however, I feel that the build is interesting and well-executed. Good job!


    Saleed, Blade in the Shadow
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    -Originality: (2.5)
    --Positive: Thug Fighter variant is mildly interesting. Two-Weapon Fighting, on the other hand, is very
    interesting.
    --Negative: Generic, boring, overused human. Rogue/Fighter/Shadowblade is an extremely generic combination (the sample Shadowblade uses it).
    -Power: (2)
    --Positive: With the help of stat boosting items, able to contribute meaningfully to essentially any challenge. Effective in combat.
    --Negative: Doesn’t particularly excel at anything other than combat and stealth challenges. Insufficient Attack Bonus boosters to effectively offset Two-Weapon penalties, though this could be partially corrected with items. Hide/Move Silently are weirdly low for a stealth focused character, though this could be partially corrected with items. No ability to Hide in Plain Sight makes SA/SS a pain. No backup plan against precision immune creatures, though this can be partially corrected with items. Assassin abilities and spells come online so late that the are essentially meaningless.
    -Elegance: (3.5)
    --Positive: Build is fairly straightforward, no real unnecessary dips, and only a single broken up class. Build comes online more-or-less immediately, and grows at an acceptable rate. Uses material from relatively few sources. Assassin and Shadowblade are thematically related.
    --Negative: Assassin doesn’t particularly improve the build (could have just as easily taken additional rogue). Wierd single level of Rogue at 20.
    -Use of Secret Ingredient: (3.5)
    --Positive: Full Shadowblade advancement taken. Assassin and Shadowblade are thematically linked. Shadowblade improves the core capabilities of the build.
    --Negative: Entered Shadowblade through generic class combination.
    -Total: (11.5)
    -Final Comments: If there is such a thing as a build immune to DM objections, this is probably it. While the build manages to make a fairly competent character with relatively few book resources, it simply doesn’t have the degree of optimization required to win this contest.


    Hamond Shadowstrike
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    -Originality: (4.5)
    --Positive: Avenging Executioner has a very strong thematic and mechanical link with Shadowblade. Dread Blade/Rapid Intimidation is an interesting way to get your Sudden Strikes. Lion Totem Barbarian is a clever and interesting choice. Two-Weapon Fighting is an interesting choice, particularly in combination with Bite of the Wolf/Dragon Tail.
    --Negative: Tome of Battle dip. Silverbrow Human is still only a slightly less boring human.
    -Power: (4.5)
    --Positive: Able to meaningfully contribute to nearly any challenge. Quite competent in both combat and exploration, plus some social encounters and sorts of information gathering. Shadowblade (and Dread Blade strategy) directly contribute to core capabilities. Very high degree of endurance. Backup strategies for precision damage (stealth and intimidate), plus Mountain Strike/Penetrating Strike for precision immune creatures.
    --Negative: Attack penalties on many of the secondary attacks are not effectively offset, worse, this only be partially corrected with items.
    -Elegance: (4)
    --Positive: Avenging Executioner flows well into Shadowblade. Advancement is, for the most part, smooth. Mechanically and thematically well-executed. Low item dependency.
    --Negative: Build comes fully online a little late, though the build remains competent at low levels. Two single level dips.
    -Use of Secret Ingredient: (5)
    --Positive: Full Shadowblade advancement taken. Avenging Executioner and Shadowblade fit well together thematically, particularly the fear/darkness theme. Shadowblade directly complements the builds main strengths.
    --Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
    -Total: (18)
    -Final Comments: I love just about everything about this build; the idea of a shadowy, beastial predator who exploits his victims’ fear is a wonderful concept for a villain or antihero. The only simple suggestion I would make to improve this build would be to find a place for Imperious Command, as it so effectively augments one of the builds main strategies. An overall wonderful build; well done!


    Krkitckl, Champion of Mab
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    -Originality: (5)
    --Positive: That is a backstory, alright. Combat Trapsmith is an extremely interesting choice (one that I wish you had made a bit more central to the build). Non-standard race with a non-standard alignment.Wizard is an interesting dip.
    --Negative: LA race with LA buy off.
    -Power: (1.5)
    --Positive: Traps opening the door for SS is an interesting idea. Able to contribute moderately to combat and stealth challenges. Has secondary methods to deal with precision immune creatures.
    --Negative: Unable to meaningfully contribute to social and information gathering challenges past very early levels. Shadowblade only partially contributes to core capabilities. Endurance is an issue thanks to Trapmaking Kit weight and limited number of spells and spell-like abilities. Lacks sufficient Attack Bonus to routinely make SS, much less Full Attacks, against most creatures with even moderate AC. Trap DC is painfully low.
    -Elegance: (2)
    --Positive: Advancement taken in block. Combat Trapsetter and Shadowblade have an interesting thematic link.
    --Negative: Level adjustment buy off used. Single level Rogue dip in the middle of Shadowblade advancement. Wizard levels quickly become obsolete, and would have been better spent elsewhere. Build feels very unfocused. Build comes online a little late, particularly considering that the build would inevitably be behind the rest of the party thanks to LA.
    -Use of Secret Ingredient: (3.5)
    --Positive: Full Shadowblade advancement taken. Combat Trapsetter and Shadowblade fit well together thematically.
    --Negative: Shadowblade only partially contributes to builds main strengths; the build lacks the direct combat ability to make full use of Unseen Weapon, or even SS, against higher AC enemies.
    -Total: (12)
    -Final Comments: I feel awful about having to rate this build so poorly, since it is probably my favorite concept, even if it isn’t the most powerful one. Excellent backstory, with great tie-ins to mechanics; I could easily see this character as a major villain’s henchman. Build would have been better served both mechanically and focus-wise by replacing Wizard, Rogue, and Ninja levels with Factotum (with Iaijutsu Focus of course), and perhaps even an extra level or two of Combat Trapsetter. Overall, this is a build full of great ideas that weren’t fully realized, and thus it is my recommendation for Honorable Mention.


    Munemasa
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    -Originality: (2)
    --Positive: Shadow paladin is a mildly interesting concept.
    --Negative: Boring human. Iaijutsu was expected. Trip-focused melee fighter is overused. Able Learner is overused.
    -Power: (3.5)
    --Positive: Able to meaningfully contribute to most challenges. Able to contribute substantially to combat and social challenges. Shadowblade promotes core capabilities.
    --Negative: Build suffers from a lack of ability endurance. Build has no real backup strategy for dealing with precision immune creatures, and is unable to deal with special senses.
    -Elegance: (2.5)
    --Positive: Levels taken in block.
    --Negative: Build comes online somewhat late. Reliant on items to make up for poor endurance. Paladin feels at odds with the rest of the build. Uses materials from quite a few different sources.
    -Use of Secret Ingredient: (3.5)
    --Positive: Shadowblade enhances, and forms, the build core capabilities. Full Shadowblade advancement taken.
    --Negative: Paladin feels at odds with Shadowblade.
    -Total: (11.5)
    -Final Comments: There isn’t a whole lot I can say about this build. Competently executed, though with some blind spots. Mostly, I just found the build a bit uninspired; by no means bad, but not on par with some of the more interesting and impressive builds put out.


    Jef Costello
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    -Originality: (4)
    --Positive: Well written backstory. Totemist and Animal devotion make for an interesting predator theme. Ninja is thematically linked with Shadowblade. Quite a few interesting alternate strategies in play here.
    --Negative: Yet another human. Ninja is a fairly obvious entry for Shadowblade.
    -Power: (4)
    --Positive: Able to contribute substantially to combat and exploration. Able to contribute meaningfully to most challenges. Mindsight is amazing. Quite a bit of versatility. Some backup abilities against precision immune creatures.
    --Negative: Daily endurance is only mediocre. Attack bonus is somewhat low, and cannot be easily fixed with items if using natural attacks.
    -Elegance: (3.5)
    --Positive: Most of the build use material from a fairly small number of books. Mechanically and thematically well-executed. Low item dependency. Build comes mostly online fairly early.
    --Negative: Ninja and Shadowblade advancement interrupted. Two single level dips. Cleric feels a bit at odds with the rest of the build.
    -Use of Secret Ingredient: (4.5)
    --Positive: Ninja flows well into Shadowblade. Predator theme is interesting. Shadowblade complements builds main strengths, and is used in many interesting ways.
    --Negative: Cleric feels a bit at odds with the rest of the build.
    -Total: (16)
    -Final Comments: A difficult build to comment on; very well put together, interesting both thematically and mechanically, and generally hard to make simple suggestions for improvement. I like this build, and I believe that many DMs would as well, though nothing really makes me say ‘Wow!’ like the highest rated builds.


    Mortumdal
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    -Originality: (4.5)
    --Positive: Interesting use of shadowblade. Killoren is an odd, but interesting choice. Ghoul, Urban Ranger, Lurking Terror, and Shadowblade are thematically linked. Paralysis/Coup de Grace is an interesting tactic. Interesting backstory.
    --Negative: LA template (but no buyoff!)
    -Power: (4)
    --Positive: Able to significantly contribute to most challenges; amazingly well-rounded. Passable daily endurance. Shadowblade directly contributes to core capabilities.
    --Negative: Lacks an effective backup plan against precision/paralysis immune creatures (which are often one in the same).
    -Elegance: (3.5)
    --Positive: Build well linked thematically and mechanically. Low item dependency. Build comes online fairly early. Smooth power curve.
    --Negative: Advancement in classes interrupted several times. Second Ranger level doesn’t add much to the build.
    -Use of Secret Ingredient: (5)
    --Positive: Full advancement taken. Shadowblade promotes core capabilities. Shadowblade well linked thematically throughout the build, and used in an interesting way.
    --Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
    -Total: (17)
    -Final Comments: With a bit more refinement, this build could have easily been my winner. One of the most well rounded and overall best builds in the contest. Replacing one or both Ranger levels with a ToB dip for some anti-construct/undead maneuvers would have covered most of the builds weaknesses, and moving levels around a bit to be able to take class advancement in block would have covered the rest.


    Geula Abishag
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    -Originality: (4)
    --Positive: Can’t say I was expecting Hellbreaker, Spellthief, and Duskblade. Top to bottom, build tied together thematically.
    --Negative: Not a whole lot of backstory.
    -Power: (4)
    --Positive: Able to contribute meaningfully to exploration and social challenges, and substantially to combat. Shadowblade directly enhances core capabilities. Quite a few different combat options, many of which are not precision dependent. Fairly low item dependency.
    --Negative: No information gathering or knowledge abilities. Doesn’t have the sheer power many of the other builds do.
    -Elegance: (3.5)
    --Positive: Progression very smooth. Fairly clean overall. Build very well constructed thematically.
    --Negative: Mountain Tombstone Strike is taken illegally. Spellthief dip.
    -Use of Secret Ingredient: (5)
    --Positive: Full advancement taken. Shadowblade linked thematically to both race and classes. Shadowblade directly contributes to core abilities, and does so very well.
    --Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
    -Total: (16.5)
    -Final Comments: This build is inspired and well put together; if only you had written up a more extensive backstory, and had not taken MTS, this build would probably be a solid contender for best. Clever and well thought out, I really don’t have any simple suggestions for improvement.


    Keeliani Amaruak
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    -Originality: (1.5)
    --Positive: Mildly interesting backstory
    --Negative: Know cheese race, known cheese templates, Tome of Battle dip, too many dips in general, build strategy cheese reliant
    -Power: (3)
    --Positive: Infinite Strength makes this build a combat monster. Plenty of endurance for combat encounters.
    --Negative: Build has relatively little ability to contribute to any challenge that isn’t combat. Shadowblade does not contribute to the builds capabilities. Builds power based in known and obvious cheese than would inevitably be shot down.
    -Elegance: (1)
    --Positive: Comes online early, if mostly thanks to loophole abuse.
    --Negative: Five templates, mild cheese race, six one or two level dips, massive amounts of known cheese
    -Use of Secret Ingredient: (1)
    --Positive: Not much.
    --Negative: Didn’t take full Shadowblade advancement. Shadowblade only tangentially supports builds main capabilities. Shadowblade doesn’t complement the flavor (such as it is) of the build.
    -Total: (6.5)
    -Final Comments: Honestly, I don’t take kindly to this sort of cheese, nor the Incarnate Construct/Dustform loophole abuse. Overall, I feel that this build is deeply contrary to the spirit of the contest, since no sane DM would allow this character, and I rated it as such.


    Tacgnol
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    -Originality: (4)
    --Positive: Knight is an unusual pick, and Shifter is interesting. Interesting and clever strategy.
    --Negative: Dark creature template is highly expected.
    -Power: (3.5)
    --Positive: 55 ft reach plus Bulwark of Defense is hilarious. Contributes very well to combat. Shadowblade directly contributes to core capabilities. Great daily endurance.
    --Negative: Unable to meaningfully contribute outside of combat, as stealth is likely to be negated thanks to lack of Darkstalker.
    -Elegance: (2)
    --Positive: Advancement taken in block.
    --Negative: Fighter dip. Comes online very, very later, though it can get by until then. A build having three different types of ‘warrior’ class feels very odd.
    -Use of Secret Ingredient: (2.5)
    --Positive: Full advancement taken.
    --Negative: Shadowblade doesn’t feel thematically linked to the rest of the build. Further, it doesn’t particular improve your builds core abilities, and most of the classes features go unutilized.
    -Total: (12)
    -Final Comments: An interesting and clever bit of optimization that unfortunately is pretty impractical in actual play. Powerful, but fails to fully utilize Shadowblade, the primary goal of the contest.


    Briggs "The Shadow Demon"
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    -Originality: (4)
    --Positive: Binder is unexpected. Build well-linked thematically. Clever use of abilities; doesn’t fight like a rogue.
    --Negative: Binder+Bloodline is known cheese. Boring, standard human.
    -Power: (4.5)
    --Positive: Incredible versatility, able to contribute substantially to most challenges. Strong and versatile in combat. Great daily endurance. Low item dependency. Shadowblade enhances core capabilities.
    --Negative: Lack of Darkstalker ruins your stealth a bit.
    -Elegance: (5)
    --Positive: Extremely straightforward advancement. No dips. Build viable at all levels. Smooth power curve. Comes online more-or-less immediately. Only two classes (plus bloodline). Binder (with Tenebrous) flows well into Shadowblade. Build well linked thematically. Low item dependency.
    --Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
    -Use of Secret Ingredient: (5)
    --Positive: Full Shadowblade advancement taken. Tenebrous Binder, Demon Blood, and Shadowblade fit well together thematically. Shadowblade directly complements the builds main strengths. Fewer classes means Shadowblade feels less diluted.
    --Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
    -Total: (18.5)
    -Final Comments: If I could give a higher Elegance score I would; I considered bumping down everyone elses’ Elegance just to make your higher by comparison. A truly wonderful build; just find a place for Darkstalker!

    Ynolar Darkheart
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    -Originality: (3)
    --Positive: Shadow Cloak Paladin is interesting. Build well tied thematically.
    --Negative: Unseelie Fey is known cheese. Whisper gnome is pretty overused for rogue-esque characters.
    -Power: (3)
    --Positive: Able to significantly contribute to combat and exploration challenges. Very well optimized stealth abilities. Shadowblade directly complements core capabilities.
    --Negative: Unable to contribute to info gathering or social challenges. Hide in Plain sight requires shadow, which is at odds with flight. Combat ability isn’t that impressive compared to some of the other builds. Fairly high degree of item dependency. No real backup plan for precision/poison immune creatures (often one in the same).
    -Elegance: (4)
    --Positive: Smooth power progression. Comes online fairly quickly. Advancement taken in block. Build thematically linked.
    --Negative: Unseelie Fey counts as questionable material.
    -Use of Secret Ingredient: (3.5)
    --Positive: Full advancement taken. Shadowblade promotes core capabilities. Shadowblade links with Paladin of Tyranny/Shadow Cloak Knight.
    --Negative: Class feels underutilized, it doesn’t really synergize with any other abilities in a powerful way.
    -Total: (13.5)
    -Final Comments: Stealth is good, but does not a character make. This build spends so many resources trying to escape notice that forgets to have powerful ways to take advantage of its stealth. Playable, but lacks the power of most of the other builds.


    Nightman
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    -Originality: (4)
    --Positive: Monk is an interesting choice, particularly all the substitution levels. Skarn is unexpected as well. Umbral Disciple ties the monk to the Shadowblade seamlessly.
    --Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
    -Power: (3.5)
    --Positive: Able to contribute effectively to most challenges. Quite capable in combat and exploration. Good daily endurance. Several ways to contribute in combat against precision immune enemies. Shadowblade directly contributes to core abilities.
    --Negative: No Darkstalker makes stealth much less useful, though your build can get around it. Build lacks the power to fully take advantage of its flat-footed forcing capabilities.
    -Elegance: (4)
    --Positive: Straightforward advancement. Umbral Disciple ties monk to Shadowblade perfectly. Low item dependency. Smooth power curve. Build viable at all levels.
    --Negative: Multiple types of substitution levels is a bit odd.
    -Use of Secret Ingredient: (4.5)
    --Positive: Full advancement taken. Enhances core capabilities. Extremely well tied in thematically and mechanically.
    --Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
    -Total: (16)
    -Final Comments: Another build that I like pretty well, but feel that it could use a little bit of reworking. Finding a way to add both Craven and Darkstalker would make this build much, much better at what it does. Overall the build is well rounded and well designed.


    Totals:
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    1 - Briggs the Shadow Demon (18.5)
    2 - Hammond Shadowstrike (18)
    3 - Mortumdal (17)
    4 - Geula Abishag (16.5)
    5 - Xen’kar Torkak, the Shadow’s Fall (16)
    5 - Jef Costelo (16)
    5 - Nightman (16)
    8- Ynolar Darkheart (13.5)
    9 - Krkitckl, Champion of Mab (12)
    9 - Tacgnol (12)
    11 - Saleed, Blade in the Shadow (11.5)
    11 - Munemasa (11.5)
    13 - Keeliani Amaruak (6.5)


    I'm sure you can see from the length of my comments how far I got before I become busy with other work. Overall, I liked many of the builds in the contest, and would like to give all the participants both my thanks for such a wonderful contest, and congratulations on performing well.
    Last edited by foolofsound; 2013-03-01 at 04:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    {table=head]Entry|Place|Total
    Briggs|Gold|52.5
    Jef Costello|Silver|47
    Hammond Shadowstrike|Bronze|46.75
    Nightman|Fourth|44.75
    Mortumdal|Fifth|43.25
    Tacgnol|Sixth|42.75
    Geula Abishag|Seventh|42.5
    Xen'kra Torkak|Eighth|40.5
    Ynolar Darkheart|Ninth|38.75
    Krkitckl|Tenth|38
    Saleed|Eleventh|34.75
    Munemasa|Twelfth|31.25
    Keeliani Amaruak|Thirteenth|27.25[/table]

    updated table with the most recent judgings
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Thanks for the update, Venger.

    So, looks like the other judges thought much the same of Keeliani's build that I did. Interesting.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Thanks for the update, Venger.

    So, looks like the other judges thought much the same of Keeliani's build that I did. Interesting.
    you're quite welcome.

    looks like it.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    lol. happens to the best of us.

    okay. slime lord is awesome. I don't know what you're talking about. unlike oozemaster, it doesn't require casting to get in, so you won't have that thorn in your side as far as IC goes. (oozemaster's other incredibly awkward prerequisites aside)

    it may not give the ruinous no save con damage that oozemaster does, but its paralysis is arguably just as good. As long as you focus on your con, people shouldn't be able to make the save, at least not easily.

    charming gaze is also a gaze attack, so even though your cha probably sucks, you'll be beamspamming so many people at once every time you use it (1/day/lvl!) that you'll eventually hit someone

    one more advantage that slimelord gives over oozemaster is actual immunity to critical hits. while oozemaster does give light fortification, and its capstone gives a variety of ooze traits (including immunity to mind affecting, one huge advantage it has over slimelord) it never actually becomes immune to crits.

    slime lord also gives you alter self at will. if you don't think that's awesome, then I don't really know what more to say.

    I'd be pretty happy with either ingredient, but I'd lean slightly towards slimelord, since SIs that involve casting limit chefs' choices more.
    Looking over the PRC again...it is quite as horrible as I remembered. Certainly not bad enough to be a bad SI. I still wouldn't classify it as "awesome" for a few reasons:


    • The Paralytic Slime is actually not that great of a ability because they can only be used on your pseudopods. You can only use two natural attacks with hi pseudopods as a full attack action, or one attack as a standard action. This is pretty terrible. Plus the DC won't be that great unless you really pump Con (and this will be hard to do on a sneaky character which is what this class is geared towards).

    • You don't get any of the social skills as class skills which severely limits Disguises usefullness. The charming gaze could have benefitted from it as well.

    • Alter Self at will is indeed awesome. It's probably the best feature of the class. The problem is that you can't combine other natural attacks with your pseudopods which sucks. Alter Self at will is still pretty great though.

    • You only get 4+ Int skills per level. This is a very hard hit towards the sneaky classes which synergize with this class because most are skillmonkeys. Monk is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that isn't (and it's Wis based so that's another stat to add onto).

    • Charming Gaze is a great feature. After you hit enemies with it once the ones that weren't charmed are probably going to avert their eyes though so it's probably best to only use it once per fight (you have limited uses after all). It's still a pretty good feature though.


    So yeah, not awesome but still okay probably. I'd classify it as a -1 PRC. It probably looked worse than it actually was since I was also experimenting with Thrall of Juiblex which is an awesome ooze-themed PRC. You get full BAB, All good saves, Alter Self and Polymorph at will (albiet up to 4 HD and 8 HD respectively), as well as all the immunities of Slime Lord. It probably made me biased.

    I would prefer Oozemaster because it's abilities are more unique (type changes to ooze for determing what effects and items can do to him, ability to squeeze through an inch-wide crack etc). Plus it's requirements are very open too. Almost every casting PRC can be advanced by it.

    On a completely urelated note I've been thinking about Jef Costello's build and it seems that for a more high powered version of him, the ghost template would actually be really nice.

    It would make the need for ninja obsolete (thus freeing up 3 levels). It would render Move Silently pointless thus freeing up skill points (though this would probably lower UoSI scores since it means the 5 ranks in Move Silently you need to get into the PRC are wasted as well as partially reducing the effectivness of the Shadow and Stealth class feature), the abilities would mesh well with the character, It would allow him to go ethereal as many times as he wants for as long as he wants, It would allow for an alternate method of attack with the Quicken Manifestation feat from Libris Mortis, and it would allow him to take Flyby Attack without relying on the dubious legality of using animal devotion (he can also fly as long as he wants).

    The only problem I can see is that it takes away focus from the SI (also, 1 level in the Savage Progression would be more optimal but also more cheesy. The build would still be fine with the full template).

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by 123456789blaaa; 2013-03-01 at 09:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    Looking over the PRC again...it is quite as horrible as I remembered. Certainly not bad enough to be a bad SI. I still wouldn't classify it as "awesome" for a few reasons:


    • The Paralytic Slime is actually not that great of a ability because they can only be used on your pseudopods. You can only use two natural attacks with hi pseudopods as a full attack action, or one attack as a standard action. This is pretty terrible. Plus the DC won't be that great unless you really pump Con (and this will be hard to do on a sneaky character which is what this class is geared towards).
    • if you don't invest in con, then the ability will be rather lame, but since it's one of your most important class features, you kinda should, especially if it's for iron chef.

    • You don't get any of the social skills as class skills which severely limits Disguises usefullness. The charming gaze could have benefitted from it as well.

      you get bluff, and with your charming gaze, you kinda don't need diplo all that much. your disguise skill is less for use with disguise on its own, and more to bolster your alter self, which you'll remember gives a +10 untyped bonus. enough to carry you on its own since you dumped cha? nah. but with support by having disguise as a class skill? hells yeah

    • Alter Self at will is indeed awesome. It's probably the best feature of the class. The problem is that you can't combine other natural attacks with your pseudopods which sucks. Alter Self at will is still pretty great though.
    while that is true, it does still, y'know, give you the ability to use those natural attacks when you're not using your paralysis. along with alter self's other awesomeness. it's also a su ability instead of a sla, and duration's not an issue.

  16. You only get 4+ Int skills per level. This is a very hard hit towards the sneaky classes which synergize with this class because most are skillmonkeys. Monk is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that isn't (and it's Wis based so that's another stat to add onto).
that's true, but despite the class providing hide MS, its lack of precision damage or other skillful class support, doesn't seem to be a particularly good fit for entry as a sneak, or to go into after finishing up the class


  • Charming Gaze is a great feature. After you hit enemies with it once the ones that weren't charmed are probably going to avert their eyes though so it's probably best to only use it once per fight (you have limited uses after all). It's still a pretty good feature though.
  • well, if they avert their eyes, then you and all your allies have total concealment from them. that's pretty darn sweet for not even actually doing anything. you can use your charming gaze so much that enemies will likely try to "play it safe" and shut their eyes. useful if your party has any real sneaks, and useful if you want to have levels in sneak classes.



    So yeah, not awesome but still okay probably. I'd classify it as a -1 PRC. It probably looked worse than it actually was since I was also experimenting with Thrall of Juiblex which is an awesome ooze-themed PRC. You get full BAB, All good saves, Alter Self and Polymorph at will (albiet up to 4 HD and 8 HD respectively), as well as all the immunities of Slime Lord. It probably made me biased.
    I would argue that it depends heavily on what you enter as. if you try to enter as say rogue, yeah, it would kind of screw you since you lose so much SA. but if you enter as somethign that doesn't rely as much on a class feature slimelord doesn't provide, I don't think that would have as negative an effect


    I would prefer Oozemaster because it's abilities are more unique (type changes to ooze for determing what effects and items can do to him, ability to squeeze through an inch-wide crack etc). Plus it's requirements are very open too. Almost every casting PRC can be advanced by it.
    I would be inclined to agree with you. I have a build in mind for oozemaster, and it's rather more... memorable than my slimelord.

    On a completely urelated note I've been thinking about Jef Costello's build and it seems that for a more high powered version of him, the ghost template would actually be really nice.

    It would make the need for ninja obsolete (thus freeing up 3 levels). It would render Move Silently pointless thus freeing up skill points (though this would probably lower UoSI scores since it means the 5 ranks in Move Silently you need to get into the PRC are wasted as well as partially reducing the effectivness of the Shadow and Stealth class feature), the abilities would mesh well with the character, It would allow him to go ethereal as many times as he wants for as long as he wants, It would allow for an alternate method of attack with the Quicken Manifestation feat from Libris Mortis, and it would allow him to take Flyby Attack without relying on the dubious legality of using animal devotion (he can also fly as long as he wants).

    The only problem I can see is that it takes away focus from the SI (also, 1 level in the Savage Progression would be more optimal but also more cheesy. The build would still be fine with the full template).

    Thoughts?
    as far as jef goes, I can't discuss him for another day for anonymity. but after 6 tomorrow, I'd be happy to offer my opinion
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    All HAIL Juiblex!!!

    errr... wait, I mean

    All HAIL Ghaunadaur!!!

    wait... errr can I worship them both?

    All HAIL The Slime Pantheon!!!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung View Post
    All HAIL Juiblex!!!

    errr... wait, I mean

    All HAIL Ghaunadaur!!!

    wait... errr can I worship them both?

    All HAIL The Slime Pantheon!!!
    well, with their slithery faces and shapeshifting, who can tell them apart?
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    well, with their slithery faces and shapeshifting, who can tell them apart?
    The Shadow knows!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    In what book do I find this "Darkstalker" that everyone seems to lack? I'm assuming it's a feat?
    Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabelo2000 View Post
    In what book do I find this "Darkstalker" that everyone seems to lack? I'm assuming it's a feat?
    Lords of Madness pg 179

    Darkstalker
    When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can flank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    Looking over the PRC again...it is quite as horrible as I remembered. Certainly not bad enough to be a bad SI. I still wouldn't classify it as "awesome" for a few reasons:


    • The Paralytic Slime is actually not that great of a ability because they can only be used on your pseudopods. You can only use two natural attacks with hi pseudopods as a full attack action, or one attack as a standard action. This is pretty terrible. Plus the DC won't be that great unless you really pump Con (and this will be hard to do on a sneaky character which is what this class is geared towards).
    • Nope. It states "Slime Lords natural attack".


    • You don't get any of the social skills as class skills which severely limits Disguises usefullness. The charming gaze could have benefitted from it as well.
    There are ways around this. Plus Alter Self can replace the need for many social skills; while there's no RAW, transforming yourself into the form that's going to get a circumstance bonus to the occasion (DM applicable) will do a similar job. Walk up to a guard, and say "let me through" looking like... well... a Slime Lord, will do nothing. Walk up to a guard, and say "let me through", looking like the Guard Commander is likely to a lot more. It's Changeling awesome. Just a shame there's no way to Quicken Su. Plus, it's Alter Self, not Disguise Self, so it's like Hat of Disguise+. As to other abilities; you get Bluff, and Intimidate. Both of those work well in combat and fluff, but does put you towards a certain way of acting. Of course; you're evil though, that's how you roll. Throw in Forgery for fake passports and the like.

  • Alter Self at will is indeed awesome. It's probably the best feature of the class. The problem is that you can't combine other natural attacks with your pseudopods which sucks. Alter Self at will is still pretty great though. "Slime Lords natural attacks". The psueodpods themselves make no mention of the Slime, and the only mention of the pseudopods is fluff, but it applies to the natural attacks; unarmed strikes are a form of natural attack, and

  • You only get 4+ Int skills per level. This is a very hard hit towards the sneaky classes which synergize with this class because most are skillmonkeys. Monk is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that isn't (and it's Wis based so that's another stat to add onto). Monks are 4+ Int, so not exactly sure what you're aiming for here. Monk gets you flurry, and as above, Flurry, with a Con based DC (DC23+ unaugmented) is guaranteed. You get Hide, and Move Silently. No Spot or Listen; so you'll need a bit more work for that. There is a feat available which fixes that issue, and I think I'll be using it, so I won't spoil it.

  • Charming Gaze is a great feature. After you hit enemies with it once the ones that weren't charmed are probably going to avert their eyes though so it's probably best to only use it once per fight (you have limited uses after all). It's still a pretty good feature though.
  • Averting their gaze means that you get concealment. How you abuse that is up to you, and it's only going to half their success rates. It's also modifiable via a DC, so unless you're truly a social monkey, then you should make special dispensation to getting the best Charisma boosters available, and using that to Charm them. Remember them guards you tried to bypass earlier? Don't know the Guard commander? Bang hit them with a Charm Monster. Or indeed, charm the guard commander himself.

    So yeah, not awesome but still okay probably. I'd classify it as a -1 PRC. It probably looked worse than it actually was since I was also experimenting with Thrall of Juiblex which is an awesome ooze-themed PRC. You get full BAB, All good saves, Alter Self and Polymorph at will (albiet up to 4 HD and 8 HD respectively), as well as all the immunities of Slime Lord. It probably made me biased.
    Find a way to combine the two?

    I would prefer Oozemaster because it's abilities are more unique (type changes to ooze for determing what effects and items can do to him, ability to squeeze through an inch-wide crack etc).
    This is begging for something.

    Plus it's requirements are very open too. Almost every casting PRC can be advanced by it.
    1 Feat, Minimum BAB, and 6 ranks in a single skill with an alignment requirement isn't open? It's good to be biased; but I think that some of your complaints come from the fact that you misunderstood some points (mostly the Slime). In regards to oozemaster, the spellcasting requirement I don't like; requires a full caster or early entry cheese, with a feat tax and a useless skill tax (admittedly, the latter being less useful).
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    Reply to Venger:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    if you don't invest in con, then the ability will be rather lame, but since it's one of your most important class features, you kinda should, especially if it's for iron chef.
    Most of the Con boosting methods use class levels. Most of these classes are pure melee and don't have much use for Cha. If you're trying to build a melee character than it's not really hard but if you aren't...and even if you are trying to build a melee character it gets harder to justify why exactly you're taking Slime Lord levels when you could be taking better melee PRC's that boost Con more and get more use out of it.

    Also, most melee classes don't have Disguise or Bluff on their skill list (this is fixed with a feat but I'm trying to evaluate the class on its own).

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    [*]
    you get bluff, and with your charming gaze, you kinda don't need diplo all that much. your disguise skill is less for use with disguise on its own, and more to bolster your alter self, which you'll remember gives a +10 untyped bonus. enough to carry you on its own since you dumped cha? nah. but with support by having disguise as a class skill? hells yeah
    Ah I didn't see that. I concede the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    while that is true, it does still, y'know, give you the ability to use those natural attacks when you're not using your paralysis. along with alter self's other awesomeness. it's also a su ability instead of a sla, and duration's not an issue.
    Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    that's true, but despite the class providing hide MS, its lack of precision damage or other skillful class support, doesn't seem to be a particularly good fit for entry as a sneak, or to go into after finishing up the class
    The only two entries I can think of are sneak and melee. I assumed sneak because I assumed you wanted to get the most mileage out of the pseudopods (1 hit builds are usually not pure melee builds) and because of the 3/4 BAB (and because the melee classes usually don't get Disguise or Bluff on their skill list). When fighting with them you will only be able to hit once (using a full attack action for two hits is a waste) so you'll want to stack on status effects/damage. Melee builds usually need more attacks than 1.

    If you ignored the pseudopods you could enter with melee classes which would lose less yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    well, if they avert their eyes, then you and all your allies have total concealment from them. that's pretty darn sweet for not even actually doing anything. you can use your charming gaze so much that enemies will likely try to "play it safe" and shut their eyes. useful if your party has any real sneaks, and useful if you want to have levels in sneak classes.
    I may be missing something but it seems by RAW only the creature with the gaze attack would get the concealment.

    Not only that but since each use of the charming gaze only lasts for 1 round you'd have to activate it again each round to get the concealment...and you only have level/day uses!

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    I would argue that it depends heavily on what you enter as. if you try to enter as say rogue, yeah, it would kind of screw you since you lose so much SA. but if you enter as somethign that doesn't rely as much on a class feature slimelord doesn't provide, I don't think that would have as negative an effect
    Yup. I gave my reasons for my assumptions above.

    I'd put the Slime Lord on the level of a PRC like Mythic Exemplar.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Nope. It states "Slime Lords natural attack".
    Paralytic Slime (Ex): A slime lord’s pseudopods are coated with slime that can paralyze a foe. Any creature struck by a slime lord’s natural attack must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + slime lord level + slime lord’s Con modifi er) or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds.
    I copied that straight from my copy of the book. Do you and I have different copies or something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    There are ways around this. Plus Alter Self can replace the need for many social skills; while there's no RAW, transforming yourself into the form that's going to get a circumstance bonus to the occasion (DM applicable) will do a similar job. Walk up to a guard, and say "let me through" looking like... well... a Slime Lord, will do nothing. Walk up to a guard, and say "let me through", looking like the Guard Commander is likely to a lot more. It's Changeling awesome. Just a shame there's no way to Quicken Su. Plus, it's Alter Self, not Disguise Self, so it's like Hat of Disguise+. As to other abilities; you get Bluff, and Intimidate. Both of those work well in combat and fluff, but does put you towards a certain way of acting. Of course; you're evil though, that's how you roll. Throw in Forgery for fake passports and the like.
    See my reply to Venger


    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    "Slime Lords natural attacks". The psueodpods themselves make no mention of the Slime, and the only mention of the pseudopods is fluff, but it applies to the natural attacks; unarmed strikes are a form of natural attack, and
    Pseudopods (Ex): The physical form of a slime lord is more mutable than that of a normal creature of his type. As a move action, a slime lord can transform his hands into pseudopods or back into normal hands. He can make two natural attacks with his pseudopods as a full attack action, or one attack as a standard action. Each successful attack deals 1d6 points of damage. The transformation lasts for up to 1 round per slime lord level, though the character can change his pseudopods back into hands before the expiration of the effect as a move action. The slime lord can use this ability once per day at 1st level. Thereafter, he gains one additional use per day for every two slime lord levels. Thus, he can use the ability twice per day at 3rd level, three times per day at 5th level, four times per day at 7th level, and
    fi ve times per day at 9th level.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Monks are 4+ Int, so not exactly sure what you're aiming for here. Monk gets you flurry, and as above, Flurry, with a Con based DC (DC23+ unaugmented) is guaranteed. You get Hide, and Move Silently. No Spot or Listen; so you'll need a bit more work for that. There is a feat available which fixes that issue, and I think I'll be using it, so I won't spoil it.
    Monk is a sneaky class that isn't a skillmonkey. This means it doesn't lose as much from going into Slime Lord.

    Flurry doesn't work with the pseudopods but that can be fixed with the Decisive Strike variant. The problem with monk is that it adds Wis dependancy. Probably worth it though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Averting their gaze means that you get concealment. How you abuse that is up to you, and it's only going to half their success rates. It's also modifiable via a DC, so unless you're truly a social monkey, then you should make special dispensation to getting the best Charisma boosters available, and using that to Charm them. Remember them guards you tried to bypass earlier? Don't know the Guard commander? Bang hit them with a Charm Monster. Or indeed, charm the guard commander himself.
    See my reply to Venger regarding the concealment. The out-of-combat use is fine though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Find a way to combine the two?
    Theres not much synergy. Almost all the good features overlap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    1 Feat, Minimum BAB, and 6 ranks in a single skill with an alignment requirement isn't open? It's good to be biased; but I think that some of your complaints come from the fact that you misunderstood some points (mostly the Slime). In regards to oozemaster, the spellcasting requirement I don't like; requires a full caster or early entry cheese, with a feat tax and a useless skill tax (admittedly, the latter being less useful).
    I never said that Slime Lord wasn't open . See some of my replys to Venger to see why I think Slime Lord is a bit more restricted in build options that it initially seems.

    It's good to be biased?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Hmm, you're right, Darkstalker is a must-have feat for sneaky types. I'll have to find a copy of LoM for next ICOC.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    Most of the Con boosting methods use class levels. Most of these classes are pure melee and don't have much use for Cha. If you're trying to build a melee character than it's not really hard but if you aren't...and even if you are trying to build a melee character it gets harder to justify why exactly you're taking Slime Lord levels when you could be taking better melee PRC's that boost Con more and get more use out of it.

    Also, most melee classes don't have Disguise or Bluff on their skill list (this is fixed with a feat but I'm trying to evaluate the class on its own).
    sure, that makes sense



    Ah I didn't see that. I concede the point.
    np. skill lists always sneak stuff by us.



    The only two entries I can think of are sneak and melee. I assumed sneak because I assumed you wanted to get the most mileage out of the pseudopods (1 hit builds are usually not pure melee builds) and because of the 3/4 BAB (and because the melee classes usually don't get Disguise or Bluff on their skill list). When fighting with them you will only be able to hit once (using a full attack action for two hits is a waste) so you'll want to stack on status effects/damage. Melee builds usually need more attacks than 1.
    well, while that is true, there are other things one can do with the SI. don't want to tip my hand if we get it next time though


    I may be missing something but it seems by RAW only the creature with the gaze attack would get the concealment.
    you are misunderstanding some rules, but to be fair, there's like 3 creatures with gaze attacks, so it's not like it comes up much or it gives us much chance to practice:

    gaze attacks let you "avert your gaze" to only have to have a 50% chance of having to make the save in exchange for granting the gazer concealment.

    however, if your enemy wants to protect themselves fully, they can close their eyes (effectively blinding themselves) which gives the gazer and all other enemies the saver may be facing total concealment

    Not only that but since each use of the charming gaze only lasts for 1 round you'd have to activate it again each round to get the concealment...and you only have level/day uses!
    while that may indeed be true, an opponent can't (without cheating) know if you are still gazing or not the next round if his eyes are closed and he has no other means of visual input. su abilities don't have components and there's no spellcraft to roll
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    " Any creature struck by a slime lord’s natural attack must succeed on a Fortitude save"

    That is the crunch. No mention of pseudopods. If it was intended to be pseudopods only, why did they not mention that in the pseudopods entry? Why did they mention the slime in a seperate entry at all when if it was for the pseudopods alone, it wasn't included in that entry. An unarmed strike is a natural attack. If an opponent is hit by a natural attaclk, pseudopod, or otherwise, they take the Slime paralyze.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    Quote Originally Posted by sabelo2000 View Post
    Hmm, you're right, Darkstalker is a must-have feat for sneaky types. I'll have to find a copy of LoM for next ICOC.
    Yeah, it's pretty clutch. To give you an idea of how necessary it is, in the SRD alone, just looking at monsters with a CR of 5 and below, you've got...

    27 creatures with blindsense
    9 creatures with blindsight
    83 creatures with scent
    14 creatures with tremorsense

    ...and that's with NO doubling up - if a creature, for example, has both blindsense and scent, I only list the "better" one (generally the one with a bigger range). Again, that's just the SRD, and just CRs 5 and below, and you've got 133 creatures that will more or less automatically detect you if you don't have Darkstalker. You can have epic hide and move silently checks, but if your enemy happens to have, say, a CR 1/8 rat or a CR 1/3 guard dog with them, they'll notice you as soon as you get within 30'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    you are misunderstanding some rules, but to be fair, there's like 3 creatures with gaze attacks, so it's not like it comes up much or it gives us much chance to practice:

    gaze attacks let you "avert your gaze" to only have to have a 50% chance of having to make the save in exchange for granting the gazer concealment.

    however, if your enemy wants to protect themselves fully, they can close their eyes (effectively blinding themselves) which gives the gazer and all other enemies the saver may be facing total concealment
    An opponent can avert his eyes from the creature’s face, looking at the creature’s body, watching its shadow, or tracking the creature in a reflective surface. Each round, the opponent has a 50% chance of not having to make a saving throw. The creature with the gaze attack gains concealment relative to the opponent. An opponent can shut his eyes, turn his back on the creature, or wear a blindfold. In these cases, the opponent does not need to make a saving throw. The creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment relative to the opponent.
    So by RAW it seems that even if they take the second option, only the creature with the gaze attack gains concealment. Silly and most DMs would probably rule otherwise but it seems like RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    while that may indeed be true, an opponent can't (without cheating) know if you are still gazing or not the next round if his eyes are closed and he has no other means of visual input. su abilities don't have components and there's no spellcraft to roll
    Hm yes, I didn't think of that. I concede the point again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    " Any creature struck by a slime lord’s natural attack must succeed on a Fortitude save"

    That is the crunch. No mention of pseudopods. If it was intended to be pseudopods only, why did they not mention that in the pseudopods entry? Why did they mention the slime in a seperate entry at all when if it was for the pseudopods alone, it wasn't included in that entry. An unarmed strike is a natural attack. If an opponent is hit by a natural attaclk, pseudopod, or otherwise, they take the Slime paralyze.
    Ah I see. I beleive the RAI was that the slime would only coat the pseudopods (due to it saying "A slime lord’s pseudopods are coated with slime that can paralyze a foe.") but of course RAI doesn't count for much.

    For a RAW argument I would point out that it says "natural attack" not attacks. So by RAW only one of the natural attacks would gain the benefit of the slime. Since it doesn't say which natural attack gets the benefit of the slime the most sensible interpretation is too assume it only applies to the pseudopods (though you could make the argument that you get to choose).

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    Final Reveal! Good show, everyone; I look forward to being on the other side of this process in the future.

    {table=head]Entry|Place|Total
    Briggs, by Gotterdammerung|Gold|52.5
    Jef Costello, by Piggy Knowles|Silver|47
    Hammond Shadowstrike, by Darkcouch|Bronze|46.75
    Nightman, by Venger|Fourth|44.75
    Mortumdal, by Macabaret (HM)|Fifth|43.25
    Tacgnol, by The Viscount|Sixth|42.75
    Geula Abishag, by rockdeworld|Seventh|42.5
    Xen'kra Torkak, by 8wGremlin|Eighth|40.5
    Ynolar Darkheart, by 8wGremlin|Ninth|38.75
    Krkitckl, by sabelo2000|Tenth|38
    Saleed, by Droark|Eleventh|34.75
    Munemasa, by smasher0404|Twelfth|31.25
    Keeliani Amaruak, by Vaz|Thirteenth|27.25[/table]

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII

    well, congrats all around!

    can't wait to start cooking the next dish, Kuulvheysoon!
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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