Would you or would you not talk about this in off-game?

[Jon_Dahl]

In the D&D 3.5 campaign that I'm running, I've been slowly building the following scenario:
One of the PCs knows a Fire Elemental Weird. I've told the player that the Weird is able to answer any question, provided she is given a valuable gift that pleases her.

Later on, the players find a fire opal worth a lot of gold. They still have it.

Yet later on, they encounter an NPC that has an almost impossible problem (she wants to create an Adventurer's Guild but lacks a guild charter, 100.000+ gold pieces and partners). She asks the players if they know a sage or any of the sort because she would like to ask this question:
"What to do next about the guild?"

The players say that they don't know any sages, but they suggest that she should try to collect the money slowly, bit by bit. The NPC is obviously disappointed and leaves. She needs a divine intervention or something of the sort in order raise that amount of money.

IMO I have the following options:
1. I ask the player why didn't he mention about the Fire Weird. I hate this option because I'm basically planting things to my player's head. It's the same as saying "I'm the DM and you have to do this to win!" I hate resolving in-game issues with off-game dialogue. I like giving my players the keys and see what they do with them.
2. I accept the player's decision and try to find another way to continue the campaign. Maybe they could find another sage somewhere else since the sage they already know is an invalid option for some unknown reason? They keep finding sages until they accept one.
3. Whatever players say works. Since they suggested that the poor NPC can raise 100.000+ gp and valuable contacts all by herself... then she will just do all that. Players can help of course. Without any regard to realism, they just gather that sum of gold and that's it.
4. I forget the whole thing and try something else.

What do you think?

[Madeiner]

Maybe i didn't get this well, but was the NPC important? Did they care about him? Maybe they just didnt want to use the opal for an unimportant question, posed by someone they don't even care about or offers anything in return.

[hymer]

I think the best way to respect the players is by letting them do what they want. If they forget things, they forget things. If you remind them of everything (or just every important thing), you take away much of the fun in being good at remembering stuff.
I'd leave the option open - they may remember it eventually. And I'd consider any plan they make and see if it ought to work. If it should work, fine. But if it won't work, it won't work.
And I'd have a side plot ready, in case they can't come up with a plan.

Anyway, this is mostly a style issue. I don't think there's an overall right or wrong way to go about this. Pick whichever you think will best suit your group as a whole.

[Jon_Dahl]

Maybe i didn't get this well, but was the NPC important? Did they care about him? Maybe they just didnt want to use the opal for an unimportant question, posed by someone they don't even care about or offers anything in return.

Yes she is. The players have been helping her out a lot during the past 20 sessions or so (eg fought in a major tournament just because she asked). I certainly imagine that she is important, but I may be wrong.

[TuggyNE]

You might bring it up between sessions; perhaps they (and by extension the characters) forgot about the Weird for a while.

[Andezzar]

Yes she is. The players have been helping her out a lot during the past 20 sessions or so (eg fought in a major tournament just because she asked). I certainly imagine that she is important, but may be wrong.

Maybe they are just sick of always rescuing the same "damsel in distress".

The other thing is that while they have access to the Fire Elemental Weird and a Fire Opal worth a lot of gold, they don't necessarily know that the gem would make a gift that pleases the weird.

[elpollo]

"What to do next about the guild?"

You expect the players to sacrifice a significant treasure on the whims of a friend who can't be bothered to do some simple research - are you so sure that the problem is that they don't remember the Weird? Perhaps the problem is the question the NPC wishes to ask. It's incredibly vague, has endless possible answers (which all run the risk of the NPC being disappointed and leaving, gaining nothing), and the NPC has a pretty solid answer to the problem already (get the charter, raise the money, find partners). The NPC could instead ask how to go about doing this, but it's likely stuff that can be done with a successful Knowledge (Bureaucracy) roll or a few days of trying to meet with some relevant official. I can't really see a good reason to contact the Weird about day to day government busywork.

4. I forget the whole things and try something else.

Do this. If the NPC getting a guild is important to the players they will make it happen. They know it's an option now, and they can do all the work - raise the money, get the charter by doing favours for the local whoever, helping to run it - themselves if they really wish. If they're not interested (and if they aren't offering to help then they probably aren't interested - "Oh, if only you adventurers knew someone who could help me start up this adventuring guild" is not the most subtle of plot hooks) there's no point in forcing it on them.

[DigoDragon]

I'm leaning toward option #4 as well.
Personal experience here, when players come up with their own ideas it isn't a bad thing to let them go through with it. Denying them creativity tends to lead into disatisfaction and weakened motivation to try.

[valadil]

I'd skip 2 and 3.

If you're going to go with option 1, at least make it a knowledge check of some sort. Just because the players forgot the sage doesn't mean the PCs did. Whether you do this or option 4 depends on how many plots you have lined up. If you've spent hours prepping for this and little else, I think you can be forgiven for nudging the players this way. If you have other stuff, let them do other stuff.

[BlckDv]

Another option if the PCs expressed a desire to give her helpful information and seemed to just not put two and two together is a check. Say the next time they do something very fire themed or if the Weird comes up ICly (or another trigger you think of that will happen before too long), have the player who knows about it make some kind of check with a very low DC and then "reveal" to him that the Weird could probably answer that NPCs question.

Making it something that the player earned/gained ICly makes it less railroady, makes the player feel special, and still leaves the option of if they want to reveal it to the NPC open to the players.

[prufock]

"What to do next about the guild?"

Why would the PCs be invested enough in starting up this Adventurer's Guild on behalf of someone else? They'd have to use up two valuable resources (a pricey opal and intel on anything they want) for what? Unless there is some good incentive other than "help out some NPC," I can see why they wouldn't bother.

I'd say #4.

[Slipperychicken]

You expect the PCs to, without encouragement, complete a series of self-destructive and unintuitive tasks to progress the plot. I shall list some of them.


Recall individual lines of dialogue spoken by NPCs, then later use them unbidden, and in the precise manner the DM desires. Paying attention is hard in an RPG. There's a lot going through your head, and your brain filters out a lot of stuff. People have a lot on their minds too; they can't be bothered to remember every word which comes out of a quest-NPCs mouth.

Helping NPCs without an obvious reward or character goal on the horizon. This is dangerous to a PC, as it may represent "sunk" resources (treasure, hit points, wand charges, spell slots) without reward. You may never get those resources back, and you need everything to fight monsters better. One is even less likely to do this if he perceives the NPC negatively ("he sucks", "she keeps getting kidnapped", "I can't trust her").

Sacrificing treasure. Treasure is a reward, not a plot token. PC logic dictates that all treasure must be converted to either combat effectiveness, more treasure, or laughter. Otherwise, it is wasted. Additionally, even letting NPCs handle these items briefly is dangerous; they may steal or destroy them, or the villain may steal them from the NPC. The only place valuable items are somewhat secure is the PCs own packs, as DMs rarely steal things stored there. This Fire Opal, and the intelligence it may fetch, represents a phenomenal value of treasure. That's something to be kept in reserve until you fight the BBEG, not casually tossed away on some NPC.


Basically, you expect the players to not only read your mind and willingly sacrifice their extremely-valuable and hard-won rewards to a "weak" NPC, without a clear chance of above-average returns (or any reward at all! There is no guarantee, or even a hint that the PCs will get one copper for this task!), but then you wish them to play out the exact scenario in your head, and do this entirely without prompting. Unless you somehow notify them, or your players cast Detect Thoughts on you (or your notes), there's no way they can be reasonably expected to do this.

[Matticussama]

As is said by a lot of people above, either they don't remember or don't think it is worth their time. Regardless of which, I think it is always better to bring up the situation in-character rather than bring it up OOC. Bringing it up IC makes it seem like a choice; bringing it up OOC makes it seem more forced.

If you want to make this Adventurer's Guild a major plot point, make it worth their while to get involved with the project. Maybe the NPC comes back to them and says that if they help her establish the Guild she will let them be founding members. Have this come with all sorts of RP and mechanical bonuses; the more powerful and influential the guild becomes, their status in it gives them a better reputation in the area (maybe +2 on all charisma-based skill checks within the area the guild is influential in). Have her tell them that they'll get long-term financial rewards if they invest in it now; maybe she will give 10% of all guild proceeds to their group for the time, effort, and money they put into helping her establish it. This would introduce a plot-line far more interesting than just "I sacrifice the fire opal and ask a question." It will allow them to actually build something from the ground-up that the characters (and players) can have an emotional investment in.

All of these things give them concrete reasons to want to get involved. You said that they've had a lot of interaction with the NPC before, so they know they can trust her to fulfill her part of the bargain. By investing some of their resources in the guild now, they can get long-term gain. If the characters (and players) are interested in this sort of status and business relationship, they will jump at the opportunity. If they don't care about it even when it is presented this way to them, then they probably wouldn't do it if you mentioned it OOC anyways unless they felt like you were forcing them to in which case they would resent it.

In the long term it also invites all forms of fun quests. Ex: "The Guild tavern in town X was attacked! If we don't investigate and solve the problem, people won't have faith in the guild and we'll lose credibility (and money!)."

[Tanuki Tales]

Why would the PCs be invested enough in starting up this Adventurer's Guild on behalf of someone else? They'd have to use up two valuable resources (a pricey opal and intel on anything they want) for what? Unless there is some good incentive other than "help out some NPC," I can see why they wouldn't bother.

I'd say #4.

He already said they had some vested interest in the wants and well-being of said NPC. They even took part in a major event on her request. So it's not like Joe Schmoe asked the Adventuring Wunderkind for their blessed attention.

[NichG]

Personally I would not think to go to a supernatural entity capable of answering any question and scrying upon the mysteries of the cosmos for business advice. Maybe thats a flaw in myself - it could probably give quite excellent business advice! - but things like 'what do I need to do to start a business' seem best answered by accountants, lawyers, and less-boringly the local nobility. I would be far more likely to have the thought process 'She lacks a charter -> why does she lack a charter (uncooperative guilds/nobility?) -> I need to apply leverage to the nobles -> lets ask the Weird for dirt on the nobles' than 'I don't know what to do next -> ask the Weird for general non-specific advice'.

When you have these 1-use mystical question situations it just feels best to ask something specific where you have some feel for what the answer might be and need to pin it down. Otherwise you risk 'that question was meaningless' kind of responses.

[Slipperychicken]

Personally I would not think to go to a supernatural entity capable of answering any question and scrying upon the mysteries of the cosmos for business advice.

Step 1. Use Weird to anticipate huge opportunity.

Step 2. Make massive PROFIT!!! from it.

Step 3. Buy another damn Fire Opal or whatever, to make the Weird happy.

Step 4. Refer to Step 1.



Step 4b. If it screws with you, it's only CR 12. They have stats and are vulnerable to mind-affecting and fear. Torture, brainwash, or mind-probe it until you get good information. If this fails, you just kill it, or slap an Eternity of Torture on it if you're of the appropriate level.

[NichG]

Step 1. Use Weird to anticipate huge opportunity.

Step 2. Make massive PROFIT!!! from it.

Step 3. Buy another damn Fire Opal or whatever, to make the Weird happy.

Step 4. Refer to Step 1.

Yes, well, I'm more the sort to ask questions such as:

- Tell me of a thing that even the gods cannot know about.
- Give me the true name of an entity older than the world.
- Tell me a lie that is universally believed
- Who is responsible for (any particular random weirdness in the world I've observed so far)?
- What are the ways that a spirit can escape from the lands of the dead under their own power?

That kind of thing seems more thematic for the source of the information. I might even do "What three cards will I draw if I ever draw 3 cards from the DoMT?"

[Slipperychicken]

Yes, well, I'm more the sort to ask questions such as:

- Tell me of a thing that even the gods cannot know about.
- Give me the true name of an entity older than the world.
- Tell me a lie that is universally believed
- Who is responsible for (any particular random weirdness in the world I've observed so far)?
- What are the ways that a spirit can escape from the lands of the dead under their own power?

That kind of thing seems more thematic for the source of the information. I might even do "What three cards will I draw if I ever draw 3 cards from the DoMT?"

If you can turn "1-use" into "at-will market-breaker", you can get a tour of the cosmology later. And as I just ninja-edited into my last post, you can still torture or brain-mash it for info (and you can strike Fear into its heart via torture, Dominate it, or whatever). Regular anti-caster tactics, then pommel it until you get what you want.

[Jon_Dahl]

Well, I like the fact that the Adventurer's Guild is not obviously the opportunity of a lifetime. Instead, it's a chance for something interesting in the future and the NPC would not forget their help. Finding an answer to the vital question would be something extraordinary, and the PCs would hold a special place in the guild.

It's ok if you want to say it's simply a business matter, but I'd like to see it as a follow-up to the things that have happened so far and a gateway to further adventures.

Also, it's ok if they don't want to "waste" their valuable asset of consulting with the Weird, but I'd certainly like them to use it on something. If I just give you plot hooks that involve the Weird and you just pass them because you are waiting for something else, it's not that pleasant for the DM (me).

[Andezzar]

Well, I like the fact that the Adventurer's Guild is not obviously the opportunity of a lifetime. Instead, it's a chance for something interesting in the future and the NPC would not forget their help. Finding an answer to the vital question would be something extraordinary, and the PCs would hold a special place in the guild.

It's ok if you want to say it's simply a business matter, but I'd like to see it as a follow-up to the things that have happened so far and a gateway to further adventures.

Also, it's ok if they don't want to "waste" their valuable asset of consulting with the Weird, but I'd certainly like them to use it on something. If I just give you plot hooks that involve the Weird and you just pass them because you are waiting for something else, it's not that pleasant for the DM (me).

I think the problem here is that you want the PCs to act in a certain way and the players want them to act in another way. Forcing them to do something rarely is met with any kind of enthusiasm. Especially if it is OOC.

Now onto the specific situation. I guess that the players simply do not see this as "a chance for something interesting in the future and the NPC would not forget their help". At least from what I read until now, I would not. The NPC asks them to help her set up a guild, and refuses their (admittedly mundane) advice. Additionally I have not heard anything that the NPC is willing to do for their help, or whether the PCs will have a position of prestige/authority in the guild, that they are supposed to set up from their own resources. Now if the PCs had some kind of incentive to create that guild they might look at it differently. Still you should not expect them to use such a once in a lifetime (possibly universe) resource on something as mundane as setting up a guild. If they raise the money/bribe officials/do whatever is necessary that should work just as well.

BTW what kind of guild are we talking about, what do they produce/do? How is it that such business is so strictly regulated.

As for raising the funds, just have the wizard use minor creation to create lots of saffron or other expensive vegetables. Too bad truffles are fungi.

Also having worked for said NPC does not necessarily mean that the PCs trust or even like her. So let them do their thing.

As advice for future sessions/campaigns, don't give the PCs anything that you cannot handle if they use it/use it in another way than you expected/not use it.

[NichG]

Well the thing is, the Weird is an emergency resource for them. If they feel they're honestly stuck, against the wall, etc, they can always fall back on that resource. Because of that it may be best to just make sure they remember they have it OOC, but don't push it as the solution for any given quest.

To put it another way its sort of like the party paladin getting his hands on a Holy Avenger due to a really lucky loot roll, quest reward, etc. Then having someone from his church show up and say 'We really need a Holy Avenger to create a spirit guardian who will watch over this artifact of power that was just recovered.' Yes, its legit for the church to show up asking for help, but to the player it can kind of feel like you're trying to take back something you've given them.

Thats not to say you can't do that, you just have to be a lot more subtle about it and also be willing to accept that it doesn't go the way that's planned. For instance, someone from the church shows up and says 'We need a powerful holy relic to empower a spirit guardian to watch over this artifact of power'. Then maybe the paladin says 'here, take my sword!'. Or maybe he says 'we shall quest for one', or even 'hey what about that thing we recovered for you three sessions ago?' or who knows. But that way it doesn't feel quite so much like you're trying to force them to use up the (very diverse and powerful) toy you just gave them before they can use it for their own ambitions.

[Dsurion]

Eh. Just tell the players you screwed up by having a plot come to a grinding halt by having only one outcome if and only if they follow a very specific course of action. Then don't do it again.

[Jay R]

Depends on what the player is thinking.

1. Has he forgotten he can ask any question of th Weird?

2. Has he failed to realize that the fire opal would be the right price?

3. Has he chosen not to waste this rare resource on the NPC?

If I thought it was the first or second case, I'd have the character make a INT roll to remember an important fact. Players forget things all the time.

If it's the third case, they refused your plot hook. Find another.

[Jon_Dahl]

Eh. Just tell the players you screwed up by having a plot come to a grinding halt by having only one outcome if and only if they follow a very specific course of action. Then don't do it again.

It was the first plot hook, not the only one.

[awa]

Step 4b. If it screws with you, it's only CR 12. They have stats and are vulnerable to mind-affecting and fear. Torture, brainwash, or mind-probe it until you get good information. If this fails, you just kill it, or slap an Eternity of Torture on it if you're of the appropriate level.

only cr 12!?

okay technical that statement is correct but you forget a weird is horribly cred it's wide range of at will free action divinations means it will know you plan on betraying it before you do and it has 9th level spells both arcane and divine and can trade divination for favors with creatures from its native plane and/or adventurers it also has a wide range of other grossly unfair abilities that make this one extremely tough nut to crack not something you casually attack.

[Slipperychicken]

only cr 12!?

okay technical that statement is correct but you forget a weird is horribly cred it's wide range of at will free action divinations means it will know you plan on betraying it before you do and it has 9th level spells both arcane and divine and can trade divination for favors with creatures from its native plane and/or adventurers it also has a wide range of other grossly unfair abilities that make this one extremely tough nut to crack not something you casually attack.

[actually reads Weird entry]

Dafuq?! Wow, that is the last time I trust WotC to CR a monster.

But I don't know, if it's played as badly as the designers assume casters play (i.e. not using half of its abilities, blasting, no buffs, no divinations, etc), I could see it being a pretty reasonable challenge to 12 level adventurers.

[awa]

mm2 is famous for being badly cred
a level 12 party might be able to take one if it was dumb enough but i wouldent want to rely on a super intelligent precog being dumb. by the time being able to beat one is even somewhat reliable you could have just cast the divination your self and cut out the middle man completely

[DarkWhisper]

What do you think?

4. I forget the whole things and try something else.

This.

Yet later on, they encounter an NPC that has an almost impossible problem (she wants to create an Adventurer's Guild but lacks a guild charter, 100.000+ gold pieces and partners). She asks the players if they know a sage or any of the sort because she would like to ask this question:
"What to do next about the guild?"

Why would any PC sacrifice as much a 2CP to a sage to get an answer to that question ?
There are three answers to the NPCs question -
1) Get a charter
2) Get 100k+ GP
3) Get partners
- now, where is my Fire Opal ? ;)

Seriously, no sage's advice is needed to answer the NPC's question - and certainly not something so valuable as an 'ultimate answer'. If the PCs have a vested interest in the formation of said guild (which, from what I read, I doubt), they will be able to help without sacrificing the ultimate answer and/or the fire opal (though selling it might give them the needed money very fast). There are three plothooks right there, without the need for the weird's answer.

If you want to use the guild as a plot hook, sweeten the deal; the guild is going to have X+1 guildmasters, where X is the number of PCs.
The melee PC is going to be the Master of Blades, the arcane caster PC the Master of Lore, etc., while the NPC is going to be Master of Bureaucracy (i.e. dealing with all the administrative stuff).
Give an opportunity for the guild to host a competition and if the PCs take that offer, have them prevent receive warning of one or more cheaters. They'll either have to (or, at least, giving their best trying to) find the cheater before the whole competition becomes void (and their guild massively loose reputation).

Some time later, someone want to destroy their (in the meantime having become prestigious and influential) guild, using curses / spell-trapped adventurers / spies / whatever. Either the X guildmasters try to deflect each attempt, soon realizing that remaining on the reactive side of things is going to make their live very hard, or actively trying to end the threat.
"But - Oh Noes - we don't have a clue who's responsible. Poor Us !"
"Wait... wasn't there that elemental weird...?"

[Alejandro]

If it was my PC, I would take advantage of the situation thus:

- Find a wealthy backer who can provide the money to start the guild
- Give them this deal: They partner with me to start the guild. They provide the startup cash, and I provide them access to the weird's one ultimate answer, which they can use however they wish. If possible, I also get 10% of the guild's take or the money they probably use the answer to earn.
- Present the NPC with this setup, and cut her in on it, in exchange for a share of her profits as well, or at least lifetime membership and spellcasting benefits from said guild.

[Calmar]

Maybe you should elaborate a bit more on the relationship between the NPC and the characters, Jon_Dahl. Because to me it seems the PCs would be better off using their wits and ressources to found their own endeavour.