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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    If you want to make Heal checks worth a damn, how about we stop screwing over the guys that were already weak and instead mess with the things that are already overpowered?

    How about we have Heal checks that can take away conditions like Stunned, Fatigued, Dazed, Deafened, Ability Damage, and so on?

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    If you want to make Heal checks worth a damn, how about we stop screwing over the guys that were already weak and instead mess with the things that are already overpowered?

    How about we have Heal checks that can take away conditions like Stunned, Fatigued, Dazed, Deafened, Ability Damage, and so on?
    this i like.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    How about we have Heal checks that can take away conditions like Stunned, Fatigued, Dazed, Deafened, Ability Damage, and so on?
    I'll second this. Actually, I could also see Heal being used to give people a second save against a lot of ongoing effects - even mental ones. Like talking someone through a bad drug trip, except instead of a bad drug trip, it's being possessed by a demon.

    ...huh. Those are actually more similar than I was thinking.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by FreakyCheeseMan View Post
    I'll second this. Actually, I could also see Heal being used to give people a second save against a lot of ongoing effects - even mental ones. Like talking someone through a bad drug trip, except instead of a bad drug trip, it's being possessed by a demon.

    ...huh. Those are actually more similar than I was thinking.
    ability damage... physical therapy/psychiatry, anyone?
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2013-02-09 at 07:45 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
    ability damage... physical therapy/psychiatry, anyone?
    Makes sense.

    The only problem with this is, the system wasn't built to support it. So, there are some spell effects that it makes sense that mundane healing could fix - but there are others that are clearly magical, and only magical healing should have a chance at. The problem is, there's no clear delineation between these - so, you're either gonna have mundane heal checks used for ridiculous things ("And if I just apply a little pressure to the third joint... There! You're not a rabbit anymore!"), or we're gonna have players and DMs arguing about it nonstop.
    Last edited by FreakyCheeseMan; 2013-02-09 at 08:07 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Ehh, I don't think it's that big of a problem. There shouldn't just be a get rid of Condition check each one should be a different roll at a different difficulty. Getting rid of someones Fatigue shouldn't be as hard as getting rid of a Stun for instance.

    If it bothers you so much, don't let the obviously magic conditions like Polymorph be on the list of conditions that can be Healed away.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Ehh, I don't think it's that big of a problem. There shouldn't just be a get rid of Condition check each one should be a different roll at a different difficulty. Getting rid of someones Fatigue shouldn't be as hard as getting rid of a Stun for instance.

    If it bothers you so much, don't let the obviously magic conditions like Polymorph be on the list of conditions that can be Healed away.
    Ive always had this belief that the heal check is also a knowledge check, in itself.

    DC 20: Medusa's blood can restore a petrified foe if mixed with powdered pine needles.

    Get to it, fighter, kill that Medusa so we can cure the wizard.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
    Ive always had this belief that the heal check is also a knowledge check, in itself.

    DC 20: Medusa's blood can restore a petrified foe if mixed with powdered pine needles.

    Get to it, fighter, kill that Medusa so we can cure the wizard.
    Really, I think that having it be a knowledge check makes Heal a good skill, already. Certainly better than, say, Knowledge: Nobility.

    (Incidentally, I always replace Knowledge: Nobility with Knowledge: Politics. It's much more effective.)

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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    I actually still love the original idea, WITH adding the other things. Essentially making the Heal check a "Doctor" check, which is probably what it was meant to be.

    And bob... your uh, fervor, is admirable but in the end there are different views. I PERSONALLY find fighters to be too strong, but then I always expect them to play intelligently.

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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deviston View Post
    I PERSONALLY find fighters to be too strong, but then I always expect them to play intelligently.
    Not to...jump to bob's defense, but how?

    How can a fighter play intelligently against something which can fly, if he can't, for example? Or something that can go invisible at a moment's notice and he doesn't have Blind-Fight or any other way to counter it? Or something with DR his weapon can't penetrate? Or something which could easily beat him in a straight up fight?

    Look, you can have an intelligent fighter, Roy is proof of that, but intelligence only goes so far without the class features to back it up.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by ScrambledBrains View Post
    How can a fighter play intelligently against something which can fly, if he can't, for example? Or something that can go invisible at a moment's notice and he doesn't have Blind-Fight or any other way to counter it? Or something with DR his weapon can't penetrate? Or something which could easily beat him in a straight up fight?
    Because it isnt his archetypal role in the party... he is a shield, that is all. yes, he can hold his own, but he's not meant for DPS, magical flight, etc.

    BUT!

    Thats where my variant of the fighter comes in... he can alter select feats on the fly to utilize all the necessary bonus that we enjoy in feats, but never seem to have at the right time. Better skill selection and extra skills helps the versatility and extra hp keeps him up.

    makes the fighter like 30% better than before, without adding thousands of new abilities to clutter it up with. (plus it follows the theme in which it was meant)

    also, simply taking use magical device ranks as a fighter can give you a huge edge in the magic department.

    if you have trouble with fighting flying foes, yell at the wizard, its his job to prep these spells.
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2013-02-10 at 12:58 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    That means the Fighter is still only as good as the wizard he has with him. While at lower levels and optimization a Fighter can be fine, but eventually if played intelligently the enemies can just pass right past him. Now if this has never happened in your group, that is awesome. You're not playing at the optimization level as others here, which is just fine, and don't let anyone say it isn't. But, if you ever go see the power levels at play in a moderately optimized high level Druid, Cleric, or Wizard, or some of the more magically oriented high level monsters, you'll see that the Fighter, even with a bunch of added HP just can't compete.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    That means the Fighter is still only as good as the wizard he has with him. While at lower levels and optimization a Fighter can be fine, but eventually if played intelligently the enemies can just pass right past him. Now if this has never happened in your group, that is awesome. You're not playing at the optimization level as others here, which is just fine, and don't let anyone say it isn't. But, if you ever go see the power levels at play in a moderately optimized high level Druid, Cleric, or Wizard, or some of the more magically oriented high level monsters, you'll see that the Fighter, even with a bunch of added HP just can't compete.
    no, but a fighter who finds himself in a bind, fighting invisible foes, can suddenly have blindfighting, or a fighter with dodge and mobility can suddenly learn spring attack for a few rounds, or even suddenly delivers a stunning fist out of the blue. etc

    its all in your planning and skill with fighters, they have faults, yes, all classes do. which is why each party member relies on each other for support. no one is a one man army. be you wizard or fighter or cleric or rogue... find yourself alone, and you're dead.
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2013-02-10 at 01:44 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
    no, but a fighter who finds himself in a bind, fighting invisible foes, can suddenly have blindfighting, or a fighter with dodge and mobility can suddenly learn spring attack for a few rounds, or even suddenly delivers a stunning fist out of the blue. etc

    its all in your planning and skill with fighters, they have faults, yes, all classes do. which is why each party member relies on each other for support. no one is a one man army. be you wizard or fighter or cleric or rogue... find yourself alone, and you're dead.
    While that's true for lower levels, at high levels a Wizard is more or less capable of dealing with anything a Fighter could deal with. And more.

    Fighting? (I incapacitate everything now.)

    Social Encounter? (Charm, Charm, Charm)

    Scouting? (Flight, Divination, Summoning)

    What role can can your, or any, Fighter fill that a Wizard can't through some sort of magical means?
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    and he is going to be backing on miss chances... mirror image, displacment... stuff so that he will have a much higher chance of dodging. AC is nice, but most balanced encounters will still hit you a lot. Most things don't have miss chance mitigation.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zale View Post
    While that's true for lower levels, at high levels a Wizard is more or less capable of dealing with anything a Fighter could deal with. And more.

    Fighting? (I incapacitate everything now.)

    Social Encounter? (Charm, Charm, Charm)

    Scouting? (Flight, Divination, Summoning)

    What role can can your, or any, Fighter fill that a Wizard can't through some sort of magical means?
    blame the magic system, lol. we are working with something beyond the realm of muscle and steel.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    So, for the larger issue of Wizards vs. Fighters... Wizards are brokenly high, fighters are (by Raw, without special items) brokenly low. Getting them onto the same tier just isn't gonna happen.

    The good news is, Balance isn't the same as Fun. Fighters can attract a different sort of player than Wizards - less bookkeeping, and your actions are less important, so you have some more flexibility in terms of roleplaying, etc.

    When it comes to fighter fixes, I'd focus less on fixing the fact that they're too limited, and just try to make them more fun. I think the OP's fix might actually be a pretty good start for that - more flexibility, ability to have a few more skills to contribute in off-hours, ability to string together a few extra feats when the situation calls for it...

    Don't get me wrong, balancing fighters and mages is a noble goal... I just don't see it happening within the existing framework. That sort of balance will have to wait for a new edition, or be found in a different system.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by FreakyCheeseMan View Post
    So, for the larger issue of Wizards vs. Fighters... Wizards are brokenly high, fighters are (by Raw, without special items) brokenly low. Getting them onto the same tier just isn't gonna happen.

    The good news is, Balance isn't the same as Fun. Fighters can attract a different sort of player than Wizards - less bookkeeping, and your actions are less important, so you have some more flexibility in terms of roleplaying, etc.

    When it comes to fighter fixes, I'd focus less on fixing the fact that they're too limited, and just try to make them more fun. I think the OP's fix might actually be a pretty good start for that - more flexibility, ability to have a few more skills to contribute in off-hours, ability to string together a few extra feats when the situation calls for it...

    Don't get me wrong, balancing fighters and mages is a noble goal... I just don't see it happening within the existing framework. That sort of balance will have to wait for a new edition, or be found in a different system.
    i agree totally.

    EXCEPT: your actions are totally important. a wrong move could leave an ally open to death. which will kill you in the long run.
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2013-02-10 at 02:32 PM.
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
    blame the magic system, lol. we are working with something beyond the realm of muscle and steel.
    And that is more or less why Fighters can't have nice things. They're stuck in the realm of muscle and steel. Even though by all accounts they've surpassed it and become demi-gods. At 20th level a Fighter can go for a swim in a bed of lava, and deals enough damage to break apart a castle. They are beyond the realm of muscle and steel, and have been for a good, long time.

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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    And that is more or less why Fighters can't have nice things. They're stuck in the realm of muscle and steel. Even though by all accounts they've surpassed it and become demi-gods. At 20th level a Fighter can go for a swim in a bed of lava, and deals enough damage to break apart a castle. They are beyond the realm of muscle and steel, and have been for a good, long time.
    good point... that lava is good for exfoliation
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2013-02-10 at 02:38 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    20th level fighters can also take a good nap and remove most of their wounds.

    Actually, that is kind of a neat idea... Fighters add their BAB to their level and to their ability scores for certain out of combat things (so they can carry several tons without strain at high levels, they can sleep off mortal wounds, they can run for an hour straight at full tilt, they can hold their breath for ages, and so on and so forth.)

    While it doesn't add new things, it helps make certain things impressive in an organic manner, and other neat things can be added later.
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    But back to the subject at hand.

    As has been noted, the mundane is "broken low."
    Any combat variation like the proposed heal skill disperpotionetly effects mundane.
    Therfore, this varient widens the already wide power gap, and so is broken.
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    But back to the subject at hand.

    As has been noted, the mundane is "broken low."
    Any combat variation like the proposed heal skill disperpotionetly effects mundane.
    Therfore, this varient widens the already wide power gap, and so is broken.
    especially in low magical worlds. Perhaps it should only be used in high level games?
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Or make it a fatigue thing... but bleed out rules also boost rocket tag...

    I think the answer is this would require a massive system retool, which is what I want to do at some point.

    I say just make it a knowledge skill, and at most make rank -3 the caster level for healing spells. These make the skill semi requiered, and also let it be as useful as like knowledge arcana.
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    How about adding a real healing kit to use the heal skill with.
    A healing kit is a bunch of regular and alchemical first aid supplies wrapped up into a nice bundle.
    Using a heal kit to restore HP or ability damage requires an hour of uninterrupted work. This can be performed during a standard 8 hour rest period.
    Using a heal kit to remove a temporary condition requires a full round action provoking attacks of opportunity.

    - When healing HP you heal HP equal to your Heal Check result
    - When healing a ability damage you heal an amount equal to your heal check divided by 10.
    - When removing a temporary condition your Heal check must beat the DC of the effect that bestowed the condition originally. If there was no saving throw then the attempt fails.

    Masterwork healing kits give a +1 to heal checks, and magical healing kits can be found that have additional benefits.

    Hows that?
    Last edited by Kane0; 2013-02-10 at 05:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    How about adding a real healing kit to use the heal skill with.
    A healing kit is a bunch of regular and alchemical first aid supplies wrapped up into a nice bundle.
    Using a heal kit to restore HP or ability damage requires an hour of uninterrupted work. This can be performed during a standard 8 hour rest period.
    Using a heal kit to remove a temporary condition requires a full round action provoking attacks of opportunity.

    - When healing HP you heal HP equal to your Heal Check result
    - When healing a ability damage you heal an amount equal to your heal check divided by 10.
    - When removing a temporary condition your Heal check must beat the DC of the effect that bestowed the condition originally. If there was no saving throw then the attempt fails.

    Masterwork healing kits give a +1 to heal checks, and magical healing kits can be found that have additional benefits.

    Hows that?
    I could live with that. There would need to be a set list of temporary conditions, of course, or possibly a rule that some conditions needed a magical healing kit to fix - sort of like how some monsters need a magical weapon to hurt.

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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Flying? Throw a net/hide until the threat is forced to come down to you to find you.
    Invis? Paint/water/glitter for god's sakes. Fabulous? Yes, but fabulous and no longer invis.

    People are so very attached to the "KILL IT" mentaliity, they forget they can run away for exmaple, or perhaps (heaven's forbid) ask for help. The fighter most likely won't win versus a fully charge wizard, but then why should he need to? Let's say perhaps your party doesn't have another wizard to keep him occupied, couldn't you hire a little boy to throw rocks at the wizards window every hour throughout the night? Fella doesn't get a good night sleep and has fewer spells to contend with. Maybe he even elects to slip poison into the food of a loved one of the wizard for him to have to deal with that issue. Or sneak in somehow and snatch away the spell book.
    There are a million and one ways to handle a situation. A DM who only allows the "British infantry walking side by side directly toward the enemy" tactic is a DM you shouldn't be playing with anyway.

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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deviston View Post
    Flying? Throw a net/hide until the threat is forced to come down to you to find you.
    Invis? Paint/water/glitter for god's sakes. Fabulous? Yes, but fabulous and no longer invis.

    People are so very attached to the "KILL IT" mentaliity, they forget they can run away for exmaple, or perhaps (heaven's forbid) ask for help. The fighter most likely won't win versus a fully charge wizard, but then why should he need to? Let's say perhaps your party doesn't have another wizard to keep him occupied, couldn't you hire a little boy to throw rocks at the wizards window every hour throughout the night? Fella doesn't get a good night sleep and has fewer spells to contend with. Maybe he even elects to slip poison into the food of a loved one of the wizard for him to have to deal with that issue. Or sneak in somehow and snatch away the spell book.
    There are a million and one ways to handle a situation. A DM who only allows the "British infantry walking side by side directly toward the enemy" tactic is a DM you shouldn't be playing with anyway.
    Wrong thread?

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  29. - Top - End - #59
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Deviston's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Nope. If you have read the whole thread, you'll see it's on topic. People say that the fighter can't take a kick in the pants like some of the suggested healing fixes because the fighter is low brow. However, a fighter is only low brow if people play him like a video game auto attacker. If the fighter plays like what a fighter is (a master of combat strategy and maneuver) then the healing fixes won't be an issues.

    However, most people just run it and swing pointy things and call themselves a fighter. If they do that every fight, sure, these healings fixes are more like nerfs.

    Edit: The fighter isn't bad because the fighter is bad. The fighter is bad because players/DM's are bad.
    Last edited by Deviston; 2013-02-19 at 09:38 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

    Sorry, my bad. It's been a while, and I didn't realize you were jumping back so many posts. Anyway:
    Quote Originally Posted by Deviston View Post
    The fighter isn't bad because the fighter is bad. The fighter is bad because players/DM's are bad.
    That's the... Oberani fallacy? Something like that. You can't claim that a class is good because a player can be clever. Throwing rocks at the wizard's window to keep him awake? Splashing paint around to take care of invisible creatures? Roleplaying and thinking your way past challenges? Yeah, that's good playing. But such tactics are irrelevant to a discussion of a specific class, because they're not class-specific. You can have fun and use clever tactics with any class. But some classes provide more tools-- skills, spells, class abilities, what have you-- for clever players to use than others.

    In any case, let's not get into a "is the fighter a good class" argument here. That's not the issue in question. The issue is that in an attempt to revitalize a near-useless skill (Heal), the OP introduced a mechanic which causes undue difficulty for every single class in the game.

    Worse... it's an objective fact in 3.5 that spellcasters have more potential power- in any sense of the word- than melee. For the purposes of this ability, they have more ways to avoid being hit (illusions, buffs, summons, mobility spells, and so on) than mundane classes. Particularly mundane classes who are designed to get up-close and personal with monsters-- fighters, paladins, barbarians, and their ilk. Particularly given how often monster attack outstrips unoptimized AC.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2013-02-19 at 09:59 PM.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

    Grod's Guide to Greatness
    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

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