Fighter Tweak (3.5)

[LordErebus12]

Fighter

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Fighters have the following game statistics.

Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The Fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

{table=head]{colsp=7}Table: Fighter Class
Level| BAB | Fort| Ref |Will| Special Abilities| Bonus HP

1st |+1 |+2 |+0 |+0 | Mixed Training, Bonus Feat |5
2nd |+2 |+3 |+0 |+0 | Bonus Feat |10
3rd |+3 |+3 |+1 |+1 | Weapon Focus |10
4th |+4 |+4 |+1 |+1 | Bonus Feat |15
5th |+5 |+4 |+1 |+1 | I Got A Plan |15

6th |+6/+1 |+5 |+2 |+2 | Bonus Feat |20
7th |+7/+2 |+5 |+2 |+2 | Weapon Specialization |20
8th |+8/+3 |+6 |+2 |+2 | Bonus Feat |25
9th |+9/+4 |+6 |+3 |+3 | I'm Working On It |25
10th |+10/+5 |+7 |+3 |+3 | Bonus Feat |30

11th |+11/+6/+1 |+7 |+3 |+3 | Greater Weapon Focus |30
12th |+12/+7/+2 |+8 |+4 |+4 | Bonus Feat |35
13th |+13/+8/+3 |+8 |+4 |+4 | Greater Weapon Specialization |35
14th |+14/+9/+4 |+9 |+4 |+4 | Bonus Feat |40
15th |+15/+10/+5 |+9 |+5 |+5 | I Got It Covered |40

16th |+16/+11/+6/+1 |+10 |+5 |+5 | Bonus Feat |45
17th |+17/+12/+7/+2 |+10 |+5 |+5 | Legendary Feat |45
18th |+18/+13/+8/+3 |+11 |+6 |+6 | Bonus Feat |50
19th |+19/+14/+9/+4 |+11 |+6 |+6 | Legendary Feat |50
20th |+20/+15/+10/+5 |+12 |+6 |+6 | Bonus Feat |55
[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

1st - Bonus Feats (Ex):
At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

1st - Bonus HP (Ex):
Fighters are tough, they wade out into unimaginable dangers as a full time job, slaying beasts so their comrades remain safe. The fighter gains bonus HP, based on his Fighter level (as shown on the table above). This bonus hp is considered an enhancement bonus and does not stack with each other bonus.

1st - Mixed Training (Ex):
At first level, a fighter may chose between two options based on their upbringing, background, or early training. they can choose between proficiency or skill: If they choose proficiency, pick any three weapons or armors that a fighter would not normally be proficient in and gain them as exotic proficiency feats. If they choose skill, pick three different skills not found on the fighter skills list; they are now treated as class skills, receiving a +3 bonus to each skill.

Once chosen the choices are permanent and cannot be altered. Multiclassed characters who dip into fighter after their first level do not gain the benefits of this fighter class ability.

3rd - Weapon Focus (Ex):
As the fighter feat.

5th - I Got A Plan! (Ex):
This ability allows a fighter to choose one combat or teamwork feat that he qualifies for, utilizing it for up to one round + 1/2 fighter level. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier plus one, plus an additional use at 10th, 15th level, and 20th level.

7th - Weapon Specialization (Ex):
As the fighter feat.

9th - I'm Working On It (Ex):
This ability allows a fighter to choose one combat or teamwork feat that he qualifies for, utilizing it for up to one hour + 1/2 fighter level. This ability can be changed with 1 minute of practice.

11th - Greater Weapon Focus (Ex):
As the fighter feat.

13th - Greater Weapon Specialization (Ex):
As the fighter feat.

15th - I Got It Covered (Ex):
This ability allows a fighter to choose any one feat (combat or otherwise) that he qualifies for, utilizing it until altered. This ability can be changed with 1 hour of practice.

17th, 19th - Legendary Feat (Ex):
This ability allows a fighter to choose any one feat, assuming he meets the size, race, class abilities and casting abilities (if any) required for taking the feat. Any other prerequisites can be ignored. Once chosen this feat cannot be altered.

[Rakoa]

Are the HP Bonuses retroactive? At level 2, does the Fighter have a total of 20 HP, or does it only change when the table indicates?

[LordErebus12]

Are the HP Bonuses retroactive? At level 2, does the Fighter have a total of 20 HP, or does it only change when the table indicates?

when the table indicates. ive clarified in the text.

[FlamingKobold]

This doesn't really fix many of the real problems of the class, to be honest. In most cases, a fighter is good at taking damage and having feats to let them kill things. Just making the numbers larger (i.e. the bonus HP) won't fix that. The interchangeable feats are a step in the right direction (one reason why they seem to be included in just about every fighter revamp), but really don't do enough. The issue with fighters in 3.5 is that feats just aren't enough to let them keep pace with spellcasters, martial adepts, and other classes that actually get useful abilities. The skills are a nice touch too I suppose, but don't add much. Everyone will taking UMD if they want to have any hope of almost keeping up, but the better classes can already use the items anyway.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So, one thing I've played with is this.

There are powerful magic items that don't work with just anyone- they require an "Attunement" feat, which is a fighter bonus feat. Attunement is item specific, but once taken, you can re-train to become Attuned to a different item instead, with some hours of practice.

So, most classes won't want to spare a feat for that - but, fighters actually have feats to spare, so they can get a few Atuned items, which will give them a selection of special properties - "Dimension Door" as a move action, maybe, stuff like that. Depending on your style, you can either let players request items at character creation for some cost, have a standard set buyable in stores, or just give them out as rare rewards to see what your players do with them.

If nothing else, suddenly being given a random weird ability could be fun, just to see what they make of it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This doesn't really fix many of the real problems of the class, to be honest. In most cases, a fighter is good at taking damage and having feats to let them kill things. Just making the numbers larger (i.e. the bonus HP) won't fix that. The interchangeable feats are a step in the right direction (one reason why they seem to be included in just about every fighter revamp), but really don't do enough. The issue with fighters in 3.5 is that feats just aren't enough to let them keep pace with spellcasters, martial adepts, and other classes that actually get useful abilities. The skills are a nice touch too I suppose, but don't add much. Everyone will taking UMD if they want to have any hope of almost keeping up, but the better classes can already use the items anyway.

This. Let's look at what you've added:

• 4+Int skill points-- pretty much standard for fixes like this.
• Bonus Health-- ok, I guess. I'd think of it as more of a barbarian thing, but ok.
• Mixed Training-- useful, but it's not really enough to fix the fighter's abysmal skill list. Still, it's easily the most powerful thing added, since you can grab UMD/UPD.
• I got a plan! and it's upgrades-- a neat idea... but the execution is way, way too limited. 2-3 times per day is a joke.
• Retirement-- this is... just... at 20th level, when you are one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse, when you can battle entire armies on your own, when you're walking around wearing magic items worth more than entire kingdoms... after taking 20 levels in a single class... your big reward is inheriting a business from a second cousin? Heck with that-- if you wanted to retire, you'd march into a nice kingdom and glare until the king abdicated out of fear! This is an insult to the fighter-- never mind the fact that this could be argued as forcing you to retire the character, even if you wanted to go into epic play.

tl;dr-- you haven't really solved any of the issues facing the fighter.

[LordErebus12]

This. Let's look at what you've added:

• 4+Int skill points-- pretty much standard for fixes like this.
• Bonus Health-- ok, I guess. I'd think of it as more of a barbarian thing, but ok.
• Mixed Training-- useful, but it's not really enough to fix the fighter's abysmal skill list. Still, it's easily the most powerful thing added, since you can grab UMD/UPD.
• I got a plan! and it's upgrades-- a neat idea... but the execution is way, way too limited. 2-3 times per day is a joke.
• Retirement-- this is... just... at 20th level, when you are one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse, when you can battle entire armies on your own, when you're walking around wearing magic items worth more than entire kingdoms... after taking 20 levels in a single class... your big reward is inheriting a business from a second cousin? Heck with that-- if you wanted to retire, you'd march into a nice kingdom and glare until the king abdicated out of fear! This is an insult to the fighter-- never mind the fact that this could be argued as forcing you to retire the character, even if you wanted to go into epic play.

tl;dr-- you haven't really solved any of the issues facing the fighter.

okay, that last one was a joke. lol
no one said you cant retire, then get dragged into an epic campaign anyways... the world needs you. :P

honestly, i dont see many issues in the fighter at all. the lack of flexibility has always been a flaw, but thats where the feat alterations and three extra skills come in. adds a bit of versatility without having to start from scratch. its maintains the basic form of the current fighter, and adds a little something extra.

non-evasive reconstructive surgery.

i agree with it not being enough uses for the feats...

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Hmm... would it be game-breaking to just let a fighter re-train all of their bonus feats? Say, 1 day per feat retrained?

[LordErebus12]

Hmm... would it be game-breaking to just let a fighter re-train all of their bonus feats? Say, 1 day per feat retrained?

hmm, what about simply allowing all bonus feats to be retrained each day together?

[LordErebus12]

increased the uses of the "I got a plan" ability

[FreakyCheeseMan]

hmm, what about simply allowing all bonus feats to be retrained each day together?

That might be excessive- at that point, every day you'd pretty much have the option to start over with a brand-new character, and fighters are homogeneous enough as it is.

Really, I think the only good fix for fighters is to give them more things to do- rather than just hit, disarm, trip.

[LordErebus12]

That might be excessive- at that point, every day you'd pretty much have the option to start over with a brand-new character, and fighters are homogeneous enough as it is.

Really, I think the only good fix for fighters is to give them more things to do- rather than just hit, disarm, trip.

meh, ive never had that problem with fighters.

Ive always built them in such a way as they dont get boring. I use tactics and a high Int to give me some working knowledge of monsters (say a rank in each knowledge). a few ranks in UMD go miles, while tumble can be awesome, too.

the right magical gear can make or break the fighter, as always.

its all in the execution, but i still want to add a little to it.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

meh, ive never had that problem with fighters.

Ive always built them in such a way as they dont get boring. I use tactics and a high Int to give me some working knowledge of monsters (say a rank in each knowledge). a few ranks in UMD go miles, while tumble can be awesome, too.

the right magical gear can make or break the fighter, as always.

its all in the execution, but i still want to add a little to it.

*Nods* Gear always struck me as the way to go with fighters. It's too late to do it for D&D, but I'm trying to make even mundane weapons more interesting, for my homebrew... some special attacks will come just with proficiency in a given weapon.

[FlamingKobold]

meh, ive never had that problem with fighters.

Ive always built them in such a way as they dont get boring. I use tactics and a high Int to give me some working knowledge of monsters (say a rank in each knowledge). a few ranks in UMD go miles, while tumble can be awesome, too.

the right magical gear can make or break the fighter, as always.

its all in the execution, but i still want to add a little to it.

I think you'll find that this is far from the view of most people in the playground. If your goal for the fighter is to make it marginally better than it was but not enough to move it up a tier, then I guess you've done that. Just don't expect many people to agree that this fixes anything that was wrong.

[LordErebus12]

I think you'll find that this is far from the view of most people in the playground. If your goal for the fighter is to make it marginally better than it was but not enough to move it up a tier, then I guess you've done that. Just don't expect many people to agree that this fixes anything that was wrong.

this is true. It was a tweak, not a fix.

[LordErebus12]

what if we build a weapon of legacy right into the fighter?

[Amechra]

You mean this class?

[LordErebus12]

You mean this class?

lmfao, yeah, actually

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

what if we build a weapon of legacy right into the fighter?

This still doesn't come close to fixing the fighter. Your fix gains extra skills, which is nice, but it's still extremely limited in almost every non-combat situation, and still limited in many combat situations that are more complex than "stand in a featureless room and attack each other."

[Zale]

For some reason, I think that even if a Fighter were allowed to change all their feats at will every turn, they would still not measure up to the versatility of a high-op Wizard.

Of course, lower levels of optimization..

[Pechvarry]

I hesitate to post this, particularly in a fighter fix thread.

But I see wayyy too much "melee vs caster" groupthink. A tier 1 fighter is not a fix. It's just a more-broken game.

There's a balance to be had, naturally. This fix seems aimed at providing a bit of versatility, not building a supersaijan. In that light, I think the only things not fixed are the MAD required to pick up feats.

And I'm a fan of something for dealing with save-or-suck spells.

[Amechra]

Pechvarry,

We're comparing the Fighter to classes like Beguiler, Warblade, Factotum, and the Incarnum classes, not with Wizards and Druids.

The thing is, tweaks like this just make Fighters all very samey.

[Pechvarry]

But... It's a tweak. Not a remake. Not a complete re-imagining.

If blandness is a problem, I prefer the warblade.

[LordErebus12]

But... It's a tweak. Not a remake. Not a complete re-imagining.

If blandness is a problem, I prefer the warblade.

exactly, its just meant to up the ante a bit, not change the name of the game. If that was the case, i would have leaned towards the pathfinder version of the fighter.