Friendly Cannibals

[Thajocoth]

Let's say there's an isolated town of human/elven/half-elven (mostly half-elven) cannibals. They see it as a duty to keep themselves in good condition for when their day comes, and they usually go without much coercion (due to a lifetime of conditioning). Their culture accepts cannibalism completely, so young ones learn that it is normal, and the people even strive to eventually be tasty.

What would be an optimal age to say that people get harvested at (on their nth birthday) for spawning enough of the next generation, but still being easily edible? What crops would they likely grow to compliment their choice of meat? To maintain a constant size, how big should the town be & how big should the average family be? What sorts of things might they do to keep themselves as tasty as they can for when their final birthday comes? What else might be culturally different?

How might they react to an adventuring party who discovers this town? The town hasn't seen anyone else in enough generations that other towns & cities have become myth & legend to them. They're not outright evil, so I wouldn't have them just attack the party. I'd have them try to be friendly, but I'm thinking that some of it could come off a bit creepy. I'm really bad at specifics though.

Should I start things off with a language barrier (because of all the isolation)? Maybe just give them a difficult to understand dialect of elfcommon (like a spanglish for elvish & common)?

What do you think?

[Slipperychicken]

Town hides its dark secret from outsiders, who would surely level the town if they found out. They act like any other town in the area, acting kind and hospitable and wishing travelers well (outsiders bring coin to their humble village, after all).

[Synovia]

Just a note, but internal cannibalism like this tends to lead to the same sort of things as inbreeding, mostly because of prion-based diseases.

As to ages and such, people are most fertile before 30 (and even moreso in poorer nutrition). As to eating quality, thats a tough one. The more muscley you are, the tougher the meat is going to be. They'd be better off limiting the activity of people they planned on eating.

[hymer]

The 'best' time would be after they've died on their own. This has been done by real life cannibals.
Regardless, the tribe's meat will be a minor part of their whole diet. Each person will generally be able to eat as much meat as they're made of in their life, I'm guessing about half their body weight. Suppose you take people when they're forty for humans (women are increasingly unlikely to have any more kids after that), you basically get to eat one person every forty years, but spread out, of course. And this place having elves and half-elves, it'll be even less, as they likely have less meat on them, and certainly live a lot longer.
If they actually kill people off before they get very old, they will likely have a high focus on generation turnover, and they need great focus on education to make up for that loss.
Their agriculture won't be much affected by necessity, except that they will have a higher percentage of children in ther population - people can be very useful labour well after forty.
The culture might also suffer no dissent at all. A population willing to be killed for tradition (there's no real need for the food, as noted) must be highly traditional, or religious, or whatever you find to be the reason.

[Thajocoth]

Town hides its dark secret from outsiders, who would surely level the town if they found out. They act like any other town in the area, acting kind and hospitable and wishing travelers well (outsiders bring coin to their humble village, after all).

I'm thinking though that they're cut off and can't imagine anyone frowning on their practice. Almost like an Orange-Blue morality type thing, where two sets of moralities just don't understand one another.

Just a note, but internal cannibalism like this tends to lead to the same sort of things as inbreeding, mostly because of prion-based diseases.

As to ages and such, people are most fertile before 30 (and even moreso in poorer nutrition). As to eating quality, thats a tough one. The more muscley you are, the tougher the meat is going to be. They'd be better off limiting the activity of people they planned on eating.

I'm thinking they wouldn't eat the brains (that's pretty much how you get Kuru, the human prion disease. It's possible to get it from elsewhere, but the probability drops drastically without the brain. Cutting out the area around the sciatic nerve as well decreases the probability to negligible, but still nonzero.)

Too muscley will be tougher, yes, but too much fat will be too bland. At least for humans. Elves could be different, who knows? So they wouldn't want to bulk up like bodybuilders, but they wouldn't want to be obese either, I don't think. Any more thoughts on this?

30 sounds like a decent enough age to me for humans. On their 30th birthday, they're harvested. Is there any reason that wouldn't be a good age to pick? They can get their reproduction done before that, and they're not old yet, so their meat is probably still decent, right?

The 'best' time would be after they've died on their own. This has been done by real life cannibals.
Regardless, the tribe's meat will be a minor part of their whole diet. Each person will generally be able to eat as much meat as they're made of in their life, I'm guessing about half their body weight. Suppose you take people when they're forty for humans (women are increasingly unlikely to have any more kids after that), you basically get to eat one person every forty years, but spread out, of course. And this place having elves and half-elves, it'll be even less, as they likely have less meat on them, and certainly live a lot longer.
If they actually kill people off before they get very old, they will likely have a high focus on generation turnover, and they need great focus on education to make up for that loss.
Their agriculture won't be much affected by necessity, except that they will have a higher percentage of children in ther population - people can be very useful labour well after forty.
The culture might also suffer no dissent at all. A population willing to be killed for tradition (there's no real need for the food, as noted) must be highly traditional, or religious, or whatever you find to be the reason.

40 works too... 30-40 all makes sense to me. Perhaps since they're mostly a little more elven than pure humans, go with 40. They should still be young enough to taste good, but have plenty of opportunity to reproduce.

Since there wouldn't be as many occasions, perhaps the cannibalism would occur as a sort of village-wide festival, celebrating that person's final birthday, with the closest to that person getting their first choice of cuts and anyone else able to take what's left after if anything. Clearly then, people would not get much meat. I guess I could add pigs as a meat supplement that's more common, with the cannibalism being a rare village-wide treat.

With a whole village though, these festivals would be pretty much daily and have multiple people on platters at each one... There would just be more mouths to feed than those people can feed, so perhaps dinner is always a community-wide festival like this. This results in a tighter knit community & decreased stress since they pretty much party for a few hours after each workday. Do you see any way this might effect other customs?

I'm going with a heavy sense of tradition. From birth to slaughter, it's all they know. Other ways are not known. As for education, they'll transfer useful skills, employ kids early, and have a few legends passed down orally. Actual education quality knowledge-wise would be poor. No wizards or clerics among them.

[CoffeeIncluded]

But why would they do this? Come on, we all know that the PC's reaction is going to be to reduce this place to a charred smear on the ground. What's the motivation?

[Kane0]

Sounds interesting.

Id be inclined to say no to the language barrier. Maybe a choppy common because they've been isolated for a while, but still understandable.

Have the PCs arrive at one of the birthdays. It would be a big celebration in the little village, and after the majority of the revelry has died down see if they notice that the birthday-ee has disappeared as the food gets prepared.

If the party noticed nobody is over a certain age or happen across the kitchens then simply let the villagers explain themselves as if nothing were wrong, and the confusion take over as the party is subsequently horrified.

Chances are the party will think the village has been cursed or possessed or something lol.

Edit: In a smaller village, there wouldn't be enough people to eat other people on a weekly basis. It would probably be a rare event, like once every 3-4 months. Lots of focus on children as well.

I wonder if they would have a graveyard?

[Thajocoth]

But why would they do this? Come on, we all know that the PC's reaction is going to be to reduce this place to a charred smear on the ground. What's the motivation?

Their motivation is tasty half-elven meat. Perhaps long ago there was a reason the town's founders turned to cannibalism, but that information has been long forgotten by the townsfolk. That was forever ago to them, and after so many 40-year generations... Stuff just gets lost.

One thing I'm thinking is to have a small amount of orc trickets in circulation in the town, kinda hinting at something, but if you ask anyone, their response is "What's an orc?"

Sounds interesting.

Id be inclined to say no to the language barrier. Maybe a choppy common because they've been isolated for a while, but still understandable.

Have the PCs arrive at one of the birthdays. It would be a big celebration in the little village, and after the majority of the revelry has died down see if they notice that the birthday-ee has disappeared as the food gets prepared.

If the party noticed nobody is over a certain age or happen across the kitchens then simply let the villagers explain themselves as if nothing were wrong, and the confusion take over as the party is subsequently horrified.

Chances are the party will think the village has been cursed or possessed or something lol.

Having one such festival when they arrive is a given. I was considering whether or not to have the townsfolk decide to honor the arrival of new people (Such a novelty! They didn't even know there WERE other people!), that they grant them the honor of choosing their own cuts right after the meat's immediate family members, but I'm unsure if the shock value on that is too high for the average player or not. (It wouldn't be for me...)

[CoffeeIncluded]

Having one such festival when they arrive is a given. I was considering whether or not to have the townsfolk decide to honor the arrival of new people (Such a novelty! They didn't even know there WERE other people!), that they grant them the honor of choosing their own cuts right after the meat's immediate family members, but I'm unsure if the shock value on that is too high for the average player or not. (It wouldn't be for me...)

Fused glass. Forget a charred smear on the ground, that requires much less fire.

[Thajocoth]

Perhaps with a LOT of research, they could piece together what no one there knows: This group descended from the "livestock" of a small orc tribe. Stockholm Syndrome took hold of the group which made things easier for the orcs. After a few generations of this, a Paladin and a few of his friends came by, saw the setup, and wiped out the orcs. They showed the humans & elves who were left (and in shock of losing their masters), some basic farming, and went on their way. One of the ideals that they tried to instill on the group was that they are their own masters. They don't need the orcs anymore. They took this a bit more literally than expected, taking the role of the orcs, and mixing the resulting cannibalism with the basic farming they were taught. Over many generations, they just forgot about the orcs.

Fused glass. Forget a charred smear on the ground, that requires much less fire.

The townsfolk have no intention of harming the party or anyone else outside their own village. If there's any Good aligned party members, wouldn't their alignment prevent such a smiting, which would clearly be an Evil act?

If that's not clear, is it possible to make that distinction clearer?

[Kane0]

One question though.

If the village is heavily tradition based and passes down everything orally, how did they forget about generations of servitude to orcs and freedom via paladin? It seems something very hard to forget, especially with verbal tradition.

[CoffeeIncluded]

The townsfolk have no intention of harming the party or anyone else outside their own village. If there's any Good aligned party members, wouldn't their alignment prevent such a smiting, which would clearly be an Evil act?

If that's not clear, is it possible to make that distinction clearer?

Reason would only kick in about halfway through.

Perhaps with a LOT of research, they could piece together what no one there knows: This group descended from the "livestock" of a small orc tribe. Stockholm Syndrome took hold of the group which made things easier for the orcs. After a few generations of this, a Paladin and a few of his friends came by, saw the setup, and wiped out the orcs. They showed the humans & elves who were left (and in shock of losing their masters), some basic farming, and went on their way. One of the ideals that they tried to instill on the group was that they are their own masters. They don't need the orcs anymore. They took this a bit more literally than expected, taking the role of the orcs, and mixing the resulting cannibalism with the basic farming they were taught. Over many generations, they just forgot about the orcs.

One question though.

If the village is heavily tradition based and passes down everything orally, how did they forget about generations of servitude to orcs and freedom via paladin? It seems something very hard to forget, especially with verbal tradition.

This too.

[Thajocoth]

One question though.

If the village is heavily tradition based and passes down everything orally, how did they forget about generations of servitude to orcs and freedom via paladin? It seems something very hard to forget, especially with verbal tradition.

Are you familiar with the "Telephone Game"? It stopped being history, became mythology, then legend, then just a story... And so much of it changed over time as to no longer really be the same story. There's probably a story almost loosely based on it still passed around. Maybe I'll figure out what that could be...

[mrzomby]

Fused glass. Forget a charred smear on the ground, that requires much less fire.

YOU'RE KILLING EACH OTHER?! HOW EVIL, I AM GOING TO KILL YOU NOW SINCE I'M GOOD.


1 thing to consider is that people don't eat 100% of a body, do they go full survival and use what they can't eat, bury it, or have some other religious practice with it?

2 If people just get eaten when they die of old age(not really gonna work with elves) it is probably a little bit easier on the players, so consider that.


3 If humans and elves are co-existing in this town, there is probably some level of class differance. If people are eaten when they die from old age, elves may be an upper class, snootier and not afraid of dying, while if they are eaten at 30-40, the elves would be absurdly younger in comparison to the humans that are eaten and the humans may get a little edge over the elves as an upper class.

[Tengu_temp]

The townsfolk have no intention of harming the party or anyone else outside their own village. If there's any Good aligned party members, wouldn't their alignment prevent such a smiting, which would clearly be an Evil act?

Good-aligned characters will most likely try to make the town abandon its cannibal ways. If you want the PCs to respect this tradition, do what hymer says and make the villagers only eat people who are already dead from other causes.

[Thajocoth]

How does this sound for the current version of the passed down myth?

"Long ago, people wandered the world like animals. A very smart green man by the name of Mestur realized that some of these animals were smarter than others and brought our ancestors together. Mestur was our first chief, taught the people to farm and was the first to sacrifice himself, on his 40th birthday, when the community didn't have enough food. Today, we all make this sacrifice for our community, ensuring that the village continues to survive."

So, over time, they merged the orc tribe and the Paladin into one person, turned it into a sort of creation myth, and made what was originally brutal kidnappings into a friendly gathering. They also threw in traditions that didn't happen until later and modified the term "Master" into a name. This no longer resembles what actually happened. Most of the town believe it to all be metaphor at this point, but a few believe this myth.

YOU'RE KILLING EACH OTHER?! HOW EVIL, I AM GOING TO KILL YOU NOW SINCE I'M GOOD.


1 thing to consider is that people don't eat 100% of a body, do they go full survival and use what they can't eat, bury it, or have some other religious practice with it?

2 If people just get eaten when they die of old age(not really gonna work with elves) it is probably a little bit easier on the players, so consider that.


3 If humans and elves are co-existing in this town, there is probably some level of class differance. If people are eaten when they die from old age, elves may be an upper class, snootier and not afraid of dying, while if they are eaten at 30-40, the elves would be absurdly younger in comparison to the humans that are eaten and the humans may get a little edge over the elves as an upper class.

1 - Use what they can't eat, when possible. Anything they can neither use nor eat (which is very little) is discarded as trash.

2 - I understand that, but the meat would be pretty bad and mostly unusable. I don't want to do it that way.

3 - They were originally Elves & Humans, but so much time has passed, with so many generations, that a pure human or pure elf is an occasional genetic anomaly. I'm also going with 4e's aging, where elves age the same as humans up until about 20 years old, then seem to stop aging for a long time. If they all die at 40, this puts them on a pretty even level. They wouldn't even be aware at this point that people CAN die of old age.

Good-aligned characters will most likely try to make the town abandon its cannibal ways. If you want the PCs to respect this tradition, do what hymer says and make the villagers only eat people who are already dead from other causes.

Trying to convince them to abandon their traditions is fine. Killing them all was previously mentioned & is something I'd rather avoid if possible.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I'm just saying that if they realize what they're eating mid-meal, it's entirely likely that the reaction is going to be something like OH GOD OH GOD BURN IT CLEANSING FIRE.

[Daer]

i find just being tasty is quite bad reason.. What if they had some religious reason? That they actually think they are honoring the dead by eating them?
Like often it was believed that eating heart of strong beast would bring hunter strength, maybe people would think that eating strong warrior would give strength, eating old person would share deads wisdom and so on. Or to keep the spirit of dead near, from drifting away to abyss.

[hamishspence]

i find just being tasty is quite bad reason.. What if they had some religious reason? That they actually think they are honoring the dead by eating them?

That was pretty much how the village in Anne Rice's Queen of the Damned worked- then they got invaded by upset Egyptians.

[Kane0]

I'm just saying that if they realize what they're eating mid-meal, it's entirely likely that the reaction is going to be something like OH GOD OH GOD BURN IT CLEANSING FIRE.

My most recent character would literally just shrug his shoulders and continue eating, maybe even thanking them for the meal and praising their 'waste not want not' culture. And he isn't even evil yet

This is a game full of strange things. If presented with a reasonable argument I could go along with the idea.

Edit:

Like often it was believed that eating heart of strong beast would bring hunter strength, maybe people would think that eating strong warrior would give strength, eating old person would share deads wisdom and so on. Or to keep the spirit of dead near, from drifting away to abyss.

Maybe you would find this thread useful? Spin it in a way that the dead sustain the living in more than one way, perhaps granting them the guidance they received by consuming their ancestors.

[Chilingsworth]

I was going to point out that half-elves don't hit middle age until 62, and aren't adults until 20 years. But, those are the SRD figures.

Regardless, forty might be alittle young. They should be old enough that their children no longer need the parent. Or, you could have the village raise its children communally, not knowing who their birth parents are.

[Calmar]

I agree with CoffeeIncluded. A community of 'friendly cannibals' would have as big a chance to engage peacefully with most Player Characters as a community of 'friendly pedophiles' would: about zero.

[Thajocoth]

I'm just saying that if they realize what they're eating mid-meal, it's entirely likely that the reaction is going to be something like OH GOD OH GOD BURN IT CLEANSING FIRE.

You know how a turkey baked in the oven is displayed on a table? I'm thinking it should be made real obvious before they eat any, especially to avoid that. Odds are they'd try to make the display as pretty as possible too. Cannibal cooks might be looked up to in this society almost as much as the chief (none of which are exempt to the 40 year rule).

i find just being tasty is quite bad reason.. What if they had some religious reason? That they actually think they are honoring the dead by eating them?
Like often it was believed that eating heart of strong beast would bring hunter strength, maybe people would think that eating strong warrior would give strength, eating old person would share deads wisdom and so on. Or to keep the spirit of dead near, from drifting away to abyss.

They believe it to be the best way for them to contribute to their tribe. Out of a sense of duty, they want to make their contribution as good as possible, hence being tastier.

That was pretty much how the village in Anne Rice's Queen of the Damned worked- then they got invaded by upset Egyptians.

I haven't read it... I'll probably look into it.

My most recent character would literally just shrug his shoulders and continue eating, maybe even thanking them for the meal and praising their 'waste not want not' culture. And he isn't even evil yet

This is a game full of strange things. If presented with a reasonable argument I could go along with the idea.

Edit: Maybe you would find this thread useful?

I'll look into it, thanks.

I was going to point out that half-elves don't hit middle age until 62, and aren't adults until 20 years. But, those are the SRD figures.

Regardless, forty might be alittle young. They should be old enough that their children no longer need the parent. Or, you could have the village raise its children communally, not knowing who their birth parents are.

I was thinking... Given the shorter lifespan & low education level, they would consider people as adults early (12; earlier if they demonstrate ability to do work, reproduce or provide some form of advancement to the community). The youngest children would be raised by their parents, and if their parents both hit 40 before the child hits 12, and no aunts, uncles or older siblings or cousins were willing & able to take them in, they'd go to a central center to finish being raised.

I agree with CoffeeIncluded. A community of 'friendly cannibals' would have as big a chance to engage peacefully with most Player Characters as a community of 'friendly pedophiles' would: about zero.

I suppose when two different moral codes see one another, one is likely to see the other as reprehensible, even if it's minding it's own business. It's unfortunate. I hope people can be better than that though.

[Chilingsworth]

Out of curiosity, just how long has this place been in complete isolation? And how large was the original population? Too long (like, say long enough for them to forget major events in their history) and/or too few original members = major inbreeding problems.

[Thajocoth]

Out of curiosity, just how long has this place been in complete isolation? And how large was the original population? Too long (like, say long enough for them to forget major events in their history) and/or too few original members = major inbreeding problems.

I'm thinking that there was a pretty large starting number. Not as many people in the village as today, but still enough to be a full village on their own. Combining this with the higher genetic differences between humans & elves, there should be enough genetics to circulate, and no one has had to pair up with their first cousin or closer to find a mate. It's been many many generations though...

Does that sound viable?

[lsfreak]

Just as a numbers thing, if you're going to have this be a weekly occurrence, your "village" has to have a population of nearly 1600 people if they're killed at age 30 and the village isn't literally eating itself out of existence. As a daily occurrence with an age of forty, your "village" has skyrocketed to 15,000 and rivals some of the larger medieval cities.

[Thajocoth]

Just as a numbers thing, if you're going to have this be a weekly occurrence, your "village" has to have a population of nearly 1600 people if they're killed at age 30 and the village isn't literally eating itself out of existence. As a daily occurrence with an age of forty, your "village" has skyrocketed to 15,000 and rivals some of the larger medieval cities.

Thanks. I'll think about this detail and how to make it fit well.

EDIT: What about this? The average couple has 5-6 children. Any adult can choose to volunteer early if they wish to. If someone cannot contribute to the village another way, they will almost always volunteer. This includes not finding a mate soon enough into adulthood. Some will volunteer when they're within a few years of 40 and/or to make a particular day's meal more special, such as volunteering on the day of a loved one's wedding, giving their family first choice and such. There's still an age upper limit, but most wind up volunteering early. The five-six kids per couple average would increase the population more, but this is balanced out by those who volunteer early, thusly having fewer or no children.

Would that work for the statistics?

[Calmar]

I suppose when two different moral codes see one another, one is likely to see the other as reprehensible, even if it's minding it's own business. It's unfortunate. I hope people can be better than that though.

The problem I see with this scenario is that it's not so much a philosophical problem to solve, as it is merely a way to confront the players with something really disgusting.

To me these guys would need to be in a situation that forces them to live that way. They need some redeeming quality to counter the grossness of their culture. If they were facing the choice between cannibalism and an even worse fate, it would make them more interesting in my eyes.

[Kaveman26]

I agree with CoffeeIncluded. A community of 'friendly cannibals' would have as big a chance to engage peacefully with most Player Characters as a community of 'friendly pedophiles' would: about zero.

Unless said Cannibalism implied benefits to the PC's like inheriting racial bonuses or known feats/skills...in which case the PC's would be travelling town to town carrying a menu of different racial bonuses they needed to consume.

My groups would nuke it from orbit. Consensus opinion would almost surely be "no matter the reasons...cannibalism removes your right to exist"

[Thajocoth]

The problem I see with this scenario is that it's not so much a philosophical problem to solve, as it is merely a way to confront the players with something really disgusting.

To me these guys would need to be in a situation that forces them to live that way. They need some redeeming quality to counter the grossness of their culture. If they were facing the choice between cannibalism and an even worse fate, it would make them more interesting in my eyes.

I don't see it as gross. I actually see our tradition of burial as extremely wasteful; cremation moreso. I'm curious enough that I'd try (willing) human if legal and offered (most people are curious about this, right?), and I'd prefer that as much of my body is reused when I die as possible, even if that means cannibalism for some of it (I'm clearly an organ donor, but not all parts are reusable through organ donation). I do not see cannibalism as even remotely immoral. Murder is, and I understand the link people form in their heads between the two, but I don't link those together automatically. Therefore, I don't assume that all players will be unlike myself.

My goal here is to simply have an isolated town with a completely different culture and morality, and put it in their pathway between where they were and where they're going (let's say, a really really old ancient ruin, which hasn't been visited since a Paladin brought a few friends there and never returned.) They can react to the village however they want. Avoid it, destroy it, learn about it, make friends, participate, respectfully decline to participate, amaze them with magic (something the village doesn't know exists)...

I hope it can be more than a five second footnote before getting decimated, but if that's what they decide to do, then oh well. If they decide to be nice, but don't want the half-elf, there's always the pork option.

I'm using cannibalism as a base, because it's a morality I can understand clearly enough to DM. I know it's halfway towards a Blue-Orange moral system for some people, where they just can't wrap their heads around it, but I think it really works. (I say halfway because to be fully Blue-Orange, I'd have to be unable to explain or understand it, because I'm human.)