Noble PC class (3.5, PEACH)

[Plato Play-Doh]

So, I wanted to make a noble class, basically a party face, but with a good amount of versatility. For the most part, the basis of it is pulled from the Aristocrat NPC class, but with some slight modifications, and I have, obviously, added class features. Ideas for expanding on it would be much appreciated, as would any feedback on what I already have.

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Noble
Prerequisites: Come from a noble family.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d6

Class Skills:
The Noble's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (None), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Noble's Versatility, Silver Tongue, Inheritance, Reputation, Vassal
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Mental Sovereignty
3rd|+2|+1|+1|+3| Silver Tongue
4th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Noble's Versatility
5th|+3|+1|+1|+4| Silver Tongue
6th|+4|+2|+2|+5|Inheritance, Reputation
7th|+5|+2|+2|+5| Silver Tongue, Inheritance
8th|+6/+1|+2|+2|+6|Noble's Versatility
9th|+6/+1|+3|+3|+6|Silver Tongue
10th|+7/+2|+3|+3|+7|Mental Sovereignty
11th|+8/+3|+3|+3|+7| Silver Tongue
12th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|Noble's Versatility
13th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|Silver Tongue
14th|+10/+5|+4|+4|+9|Inheritance
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+9|Silver Tongue
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|Noble’s Versatility
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10| Silver Tongue
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11|Inheritance
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Silver Tongue
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12| Noble's Versatility, Masterful Silver Tongue
[/table]
Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The noble is proficient in the use of all simple and martial weapons and with all types of armor and shields.

Reputation: Nobles can use their family's reputation to gain favors or make people more receptive to their requests. All people who meet them make a Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) check (DC 0+number of miles from hometown-class level*2.) If they succeed, they know who the Noble is, and are affected as though by a charm person spell (Will DC 10+class level+charisma modifier). This is an extraordinary ability, and as such is not subject to spell resistance.

Silver Tongue: At 1st level, and every 2 levels thereafter, Nobles can choose two skills from the following list: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and Knowledge (Nobility/Royalty) and receive a +2 to the two chosen skills. If the same skill is chosen multiple times with Silver Tongue, the bonuses stack. Additionally, Nobles may always take ten on checks involving the aforementioned skills.

Inheritance: At 1st level, Nobles gain a loyal servant (a 1st level commoner of the same race as the player, 10 in all ability scores before racial adjustments, 4 ranks in profession (butler) and 4 skill points to be allocated by the player, as well as a level 1 warrior of the same race as the player, which is treated as a cohort (as though gained with the leadership feat). All other facets are determined by the player. At 6th and 14th levels, a messenger will seek them out the first time they enter a city after gaining that level, and will give them a level-appropriate magical item of the DM's choosing. At 7th level, they gain the landlord feat. At 18th level, they are granted all of their family's wealth and holdings. (Better mechanical explanation pending).

Vassal: At any time, a courier may arrive with word from the Noble's king, requesting aid. Should they refuse to go to their aid, they lose the benefits of the Inheritance and Reputation features, except that they may keep any items gained through the Inheritance feature, until they atone by returning to their king and completing any task he requests of them to redeem themselves.

Noble’s Versatility: Nobles have more than enough time on their hands to dabble in a plethora of different activities. At 1st and 4th levels, and every 4 levels thereafter, Nobles gain a feature from the following list, all of which can be taken multiple times unless otherwise noted. They cannot change this decision once it has been made. (More will be added as they are made.)

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Magic Dabbling: The Noble learns 3 0-level spells from the sorc/wiz spell list, which he may cast as a sorcerer with a caster level equal to his class level/2. Additionally, they gain spellcraft as a class skill. Each time an Noble takes this feature, they unlock an additional spell level from which they may choose spells. The third time this is chosen, they gain access to a familiar as a sorcerer with a class level equal to one-half their Noble class level.
Religious Dabbling: The Noble gains the granted powers of two cleric domains, but no spells. Rather than gain additional domain powers, the Noble gains the ability to cast 1st level spells from those domains as a Cleric with a level equal to their Noble level. Each time afterwards that they take this feature, they add an additional spell level, which may be cast similarly. The third time this feature is chosen, they gain the ability to turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of half the Noble's class level.
Psionic Dabbling: The Noble gains daily power points as a psion of half their level. Additionally, they gain autohypnosis and psicraft as class skills. The second time that they take this feature, they gain the ability to manifest 2 1st level powers from the psion/wilder power list. Each subsequent time they take this feature, they gain access to an additional power level from which they choose powers, and may choose 2 additional powers. The third time they take this feature, they gain the ability to take powers from one psionic discipline of their choice, and gain the ability to make a psicrystal as a psion of 1/2 their class level. The fourth time they take this feature, they may choose an additional power from their chosen discipline.
Combat Dabbling: The Noble gains 2 feats from the Fighter bonus feat list. They are considered to have fighter levels equal to their Noble levels for the purposes of meeting prerequisites for these feats. The first time this feature is taken, they automatically gain proficiency in one exotic weapon of their choice. The second time this feature is chosen, they gain Tactical Leader class feature of the Commander. The fourth time this feature is chosen, they gain Uncanny Dodge as a rogue.
Skill Dabbling: The Noble gains an additional class skill, and are considered to have max ranks in that skill. Additionally, they gain +2 to the chosen skill, and may always take 10 with the chosen skill. Alternatively, this may also be taken to gain +3 to an existing skill, and allow the noble to always take 10 with that skill. Whenever this is taken for an existing skill, it gives the noble maximum ranks in that skill, but only if this feature has been applied to that skill before, whether to make it a class skill or to amplify it if it was already a class skill. Once they have taken this feature 3 times Nobles begin to put more weight into learning and applying new skills, and as such gain the ability to better empathize with others who share a similar craft. They may gain +3 to intimidate, bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive checks with people who share trained skills with them as long as those skills are class skills. To do this, they must make a check in the shared skill with a DC of 10+the target's ranks in that skill. This bonus stacks with subsequent times taking this feature.
Profession Dabbling: The Noble gains class features as though they had taken a level in another class. They do not, however, gain the spellcasting or anything similar to spellcasting (like psionics) from that class. This counts as a level in the other class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. If this feature is taken multiple times with the same class, it is considered multiple levels in that class.

Mental Sovereignty: All of that courtly intrigue has made the Noble careful about guarding their thoughts. Starting at level 2, if they succeed on a will save against a spell or effect that would normally deal damage on a save, it deals no damage instead. Additionally, they may choose to make a bluff check in place of a will save to avoid mind-affecting effects. Starting at level 10, they gain the ability to know exactly what the effect was with a successful Sense Motive check against the bluff check of the ability's user, with a +2 insight bonus if they have taken Magic, Religious, or Psionic Dabbling (these bonuses do not stack with one another.)

Masterful Silver Tongue: Starting at 20th level, the Noble is automatically assumed to have rolled a natural 20 with their Silver Tongue skills. However, this is not necessarily an automatic success; they still must roll to determine that.

[Plato Play-Doh]

Nobody? Well, I've added Inheritance, if anyone's interested.

[Omnicrat]

Skill dabbling should give max ranks in the new skill.

Edit: and should probably also give some other bonus... maybe have a bonus equal to silver tongue? that should probably do it.

[Farus-Ashan]

I see no debauchery class skill in this. I am disappointed.

It's not actually a bad class. I imagine that in the late game they'd be a bit weak, though, but the out of combat versatility would make up for it.

[jedipilot24]

There's a Noble class in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting.
Also consider the Charlatan

[Matticussama]

Maybe consider throwing in bonuses to Knowledge: Nobility/Royalty and Sense Motive in addition to Bluff and Diplomacy? All 4 skills are fairly important to a successful noble, after all.

[Farus-Ashan]

Maybe consider throwing in bonuses to Knowledge: Nobility/Royalty and Sense Motive in addition to Bluff and Diplomacy? All 4 skills are fairly important to a successful noble, after all.

Intimidate, too, for the Lawful Evil noble... and maybe the Chaotic Good noble.

[Matticussama]

True. Perhaps give them a choice of which skills to boost with Silver Tongue, similar to how Ranger's choose their favored enemy? Each time you obtain the Silver Tongue class feature, you can choose two skills from a list (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Knowledge:Nobility/Royalty) and receive a +2 to the two chosen skills. If you choose the same skill multiple times with Silver Tongue, the bonuses stack.

[Plato Play-Doh]

Skill dabbling should give max ranks in the new skill.

Edit: and should probably also give some other bonus... maybe have a bonus equal to silver tongue? that should probably do it.

Alright, I'll change that.

True. Perhaps give them a choice of which skills to boost with Silver Tongue, similar to how Ranger's choose their favored enemy? Each time you obtain the Silver Tongue class feature, you can choose two skills from a list (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Knowledge:Nobility/Royalty) and receive a +2 to the two chosen skills. If you choose the same skill multiple times with Silver Tongue, the bonuses stack.

Yeah, I like that better.

[Omnicrat]

Alright, I'll change that.

I meant the old version (as the new version was not suggested yet) of silver tongue. +2 every two levels (max +20 at 19) and always able to take ten.

Also, did you mean to take the always take ten aspect out of silver tongue?

[Plato Play-Doh]

I meant the old version (as the new version was not suggested yet) of silver tongue. +2 every two levels (max +20 at 19) and always able to take ten.

Also, did you mean to take the always take ten aspect out of silver tongue?

Oops. Right. I meant to keep the taking ten. However, being able to take ten and get massive bonuses seems a bit much for "dabbling" to me, so I'll keep it at a single +2 for the dabbling bit (I mean, you're still getting an extra skill added to your already relatively long list of skills.)

[Omnicrat]

Oops. Right. I meant to keep the taking ten. However, being able to take ten and get massive bonuses seems a bit much for "dabbling" to me, so I'll keep it at a single +2 for the dabbling bit (I mean, you're still getting an extra skill added to your already relatively long list of skills.)

But its one skill. Granted, you also get x skill points, x being however many it takes to get the skill to maximum ranks. Still, this ability has the option of giving you a whole different class level, two feats (effectively three the first time), or spells cast as a sorcerer of half your level.

edit: did you mean to give always-take-ten for skills the player did not gain a +2 bonus on, because as written you did. Its not a problem, just making sure that's not another error.

[Plato Play-Doh]

Yeah, that's true, but the way I was intending to go about it was that they could do pretty much anything other classes could do, but not quite as well. As it stands, it's doing it better than most other people, though they're passing up some other really good features to do it. I'm undecided, and very well may change it, but I'm just not quite sure.

I did intend to let them take 10 on all of them in Silver Tongue. They may choose not to master them, but it makes sense for them to still be good at it.

[Omnicrat]

Yeah, that's true, but the way I was intending to go about it was that they could do pretty much anything other classes could do, but not quite as well. As it stands, it's doing it better than most other people, though they're passing up some other really good features to do it. I'm undecided, and very well may change it, but I'm just not quite sure.

I did intend to let them take 10 on all of them in Silver Tongue. They may choose not to master them, but it makes sense for them to still be good at it.

And again, it is one skill. One skill isn't "not quite as well," one skill is nowhere near what a class can do. As you currently have it, its a few skill points and half of an underpowered feat. This ability is worse than another characters afterthought.

(Sorry if I sound harsh. Just trying to add constructive criticism.)

Makes sense. Also, I agree, just wanted to make sure I wouldn't have to convince you to leave it as-is.

[Plato Play-Doh]

Alright, I'll change skill dabbling around a bit.

Edit: Not quite mimicking Silver Tongue, but similar. Not sure if it's good, or if I should change it some more, though, what do you think?

[Omnicrat]

Alright, I'll change skill dabbling around a bit.

Edit: Not quite mimicking Silver Tongue, but similar. Not sure if it's good, or if I should change it some more.

Its definitely better, but is still significantly less than combat dabbling, which is not bad, but definitely the weakest of the other three. If you don't want to give +2 at every odd level, you should at least give something more...

[Plato Play-Doh]

Its definitely better, but is still significantly less than combat dabbling, which is not bad, but definitely the weakest of the other three. If you don't want to give +2 at every odd level, you should at least give something more...

I don't want to make it so they're as good or better at this skill than the skills from Silver Tongue, but I may have a solution. With their knowledge of the craft, they can gain a bonus equal to the bonus from this feature to all diplomacy, bluff, intimidate, and sense motive checks regarding others who are trained in that skill and who have it as a class skill. Would that work?

[Omnicrat]

I don't want to make it so they're as good or better at this skill than the skills from Silver Tongue, but I may have a solution. With their knowledge of the craft, they can gain a bonus equal to the bonus from this feature to all diplomacy, bluff, intimidate, and sense motive checks regarding others who are trained in that skill and who have it as a class skill. Would that work?

So, buff silver tongue and then move skill dabbling up to old silver tongue? If not that, idk what you mean.

edit: If that is it, that's fine? More power, clearly, but it fits thematically and isn't over powered.

[Plato Play-Doh]

So, buff silver tongue and then move skill dabbling up to old silver tongue? If not that, idk what you mean.

edit: If that is it, that's fine? More power, clearly, but it fits thematically and isn't over powered.

I think I'll have that tied to skill dabbling. Something like "By taking this feature, Nobles put more weight into learning and applying new skills, and as such gain the ability to better empathize with others who share a similar craft. They gain +3 to intimidate, bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive checks with people who share trained skills with them as long as those skills are class skills." I still don't really want to make it automatically increase every 2 levels, as that makes it much closer to being on par with silver tongue. Instead, I make it so that they can gain a buff to their party face skills that is tied to these new skills in addition to the increase of three each time it's selected. I am, however, thinking that if they take that repeatedly, and spread their skill points around, they can get head and shoulders above any other party face fairly easily. (by 20th level, they would have +20 from Silver tongue, and an additional +18 in the right situations, which could be most situations, considering all the class skills they already have) if they took skill dabbling every time that they would gain noble's nersatility. That's really high. I'm also considering making most of the noble's nersatility things grant progressive bonuses for taking them multiple times. The profession dabbling and magic dabbling could stay as they are, but skill dabbling would, say, only have the bonus I just thought of kick in after the 3rd or 4th time taking it. Then, it limits it, but still creates the incentive to take it. Just toying with ideas at this point, I really don't know.

[Omnicrat]

I think I'll have that tied to skill dabbling. Something like "By taking this feature, Nobles put more weight into learning and applying new skills, and as such gain the ability to better empathize with others who share a similar craft. They gain +3 to intimidate, bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive checks with people who share trained skills with them as long as those skills are class skills." I still don't really want to make it automatically increase every 2 levels, as that makes it much closer to being on par with silver tongue. Instead, I make it so that they can gain a buff to their party face skills that is tied to these new skills in addition to the increase of three each time it's selected. I am, however, thinking that if they take that repeatedly, and spread their skill points around, they can get head and shoulders above any other party face fairly easily. (by 20th level, they would have +20 from Silver tongue, and an additional +18 in the right situations, which could be most situations, considering all the class skills they already have) if they took skill dabbling every time that they would gain noble's nersatility. That's really high. I'm also considering making most of the noble's nersatility things grant progressive bonuses for taking them multiple times. The profession dabbling and magic dabbling could stay as they are, but skill dabbling would, say, only have the bonus I just thought of kick in after the 3rd or 4th time taking it. Then, it limits it, but still creates the incentive to take it. Just toying with ideas at this point, I really don't know.

Yeah, the potential +38 bonus on all the characters most important skills. seems really good. Like, you went from underpowered to overpowered. I understand you don't want to make it silver tongue plus (though not quite why) and that's fine. I just like consistency of mechanics and if a type of progression is used once in a homebrew i want it used again. Maybe the bonus only works if you work the relevant skill into the check somehow?

Also, if you do have the bonus come in at a certain level, you should probably have different/similar bonuses at each additional level.

[Plato Play-Doh]

I don't really want it to be as good or better than silver tongue because the diplomacy type stuff is what a Noble would be especially good at, whereas the dabbling is just that: dabbling. It's meant to add versatility, but not be a specialty. Initially, I wanted no bonuses to it whatsoever, or bonuses only if you took it multiple times, maybe. While you can kind of take a level in another class or something like that, I plan on that meaning you have to give something up (like some other features I'll put in at those levels.) Regarding the requirement to work the relevant skill in, do you think it would work if it would require a skill check (DC something like 10+target's ranks in that skill) to receive that bonus?

[Omnicrat]

I don't really want it to be as good or better than silver tongue because the diplomacy type stuff is what a Noble would be especially good at, whereas the dabbling is just that: dabbling. It's meant to add versatility, but not be a specialty. Initially, I wanted no bonuses to it whatsoever, or bonuses only if you took it multiple times, maybe. While you can kind of take a level in another class or something like that, I plan on that meaning you have to give something up (like some other features I'll put in at those levels.) Regarding the requirement to work the relevant skill in, do you think it would work if it would require a skill check (DC something like 10+target's ranks in that skill) to receive that bonus?

Ah. I understand now. Makes sense.

Also, something like that seems fine.

[Plato Play-Doh]

Alright. I've added that as something gained upon taking it the 3rd time. I think I'll go with increasing as it is taken more for all of them, and I'm working on stuff for each one. Do you have any suggestions for that, or for anything else?

[Omnicrat]

You could try incorporating Armercha's (Amercha's?) leadership feats, if he finishes them. The followers could be refluffed as a court, and the stronghold chain would replace the landlord feat.

[Plato Play-Doh]

I already have a warrior and a servant, and I don't really think Amechra's feats would work with this, particularly since I will likely use it and the Commander class that I made in the same world, and the Commander uses the original leadership feat.

Edit: For the sake of not unnecessarily adding another post, I'll put this here: I have added Religious Dabbling under Noble's Versatility, and modified some of the other features as well.

[Omnicrat]

Cleric domains don't have level-0 spells.

Other than that, it looks really good.

[Plato Play-Doh]

Cleric domains don't have level-0 spells.

Other than that, it looks really good.

Oops. Fixed.

[Plato Play-Doh]

Added Psionic Dabbling, and added Concentration as a class skill.

[Omnicrat]

I'm not sure I follow what you did with psionic dabbling. It seems really underpowered, though I may just not be getting it.

[Plato Play-Doh]

They get 2 power points/day, and 2 powers, which they manifest as a psion of their class level. This, of course, increases each time they take it. If they take it repetitively, they gain access to domains, as well as an extra power in their domain the 4th time they take it. As it stands, I agree that it is probably underpowered, but I'm not quite sure how to make it better. I have, however changed it so they can gain access to a psicrystal, though I'm not sure that that's good enough. Not sure why I didn't include that initially, but that might make up for it. I have also reworded some stuff, and included some stuff (namely the fact that I didn't specify that the manifesting was as a psion of their class level) I realized I had left out. Is it any better now?