LGBTAitP #31: Cuddles Are On Back Order. Have Some Snuggles!

[Karen Lynn]

Yeah, you've mentioned it before. Personally I find it kind of weird. One of my friends started dating a guy thirteen or fourteen years older recently, and I find it kind of weird. I'm not going to say "no you can't do it" though, if it works for you, cool. If I said people can't do things I find weird everybody would have to sit in basement rooms alone forever and humanity would die out. (At the very least sex would be illegal. And that would be a problem.)

I would happily rebel against that, and host public orgies.

[noparlpf]

I would happily rebel against that, and host public orgies.

Obviously we'd run a tight 1984-style regime. Add in a bit of Brave New World test-tube babies and my own personal twist of sterilisation at birth. Science can already work around that, so no worries.

[Karen Lynn]

Obviously we'd run a tight 1984-style regime. Add in a bit of Brave New World test-tube babies and my own personal twist of sterilisation at birth. Science can already work around that, so no worries.

Hmph... Take all the fun out, why don't you... *pouts*

[noparlpf]

Hmph... Take all the fun out, why don't you... *pouts*

Fun is mandated by law. You may only have fun at specific hours and engaging in specific activities.

[Karen Lynn]

Do these activities include MMOs, tabletop games, Pokémon, and Harvest Moon?

[noparlpf]

Do these activities include MMOs, tabletop games, Pokémon, and Harvest Moon?

...there are other activities?
Oh, right, anime.

[Lissou]

@Helio: grats on taking the plunge! I'm glad she didn't take it badly, hopefully it will turn out okay. I think it's good that she's being honest with herself and recognising the risk of hurting you more if she lies about being fine with it or pushes herself too much.

Hmm, I had thought a minor is someone who isn't an adult. I'll have to go doublecheck that.

Suffice to say that if someone not an adult to me at least you're a child and sleeping with a child when one is a, pardon my french, grown-ass man is creepy even if she's 16.

I think you can use minor for more than the age of majority, but it might be a regional thing. Usually I've seen "minor" used as "less than the legal age for..." which depending on the context could be 18, 16 or 21 for instance. When they say "giving alcohol to a minor" they usually mean someone under the legal age, the person could be 20.

Your reaction could be cultural. To know whether it is, here is a question: if the man was, say, 25, and pretended to be 19 or 20 to date someone who was 18, would you find it equally creepy, or less so?
Culturally, I grew up in a country where the legal age is 15. I'm constantly surprised by people who are disturbed with the idea of, say, a 17 year old having sex, because to me it's two years over the minimum age, and so I see it in very much the same way as they do a 20 year old having sex.
There isn't a huge difference between 17 and 18 or between 16 and 18. Because people mature at different rates, many 16 year olds and 18 year olds are comparable. As a result, I think the perceived ickiness is often simply a reflection of the culture where you grew up.
And it's good that the age that's illegal makes you feel disturbed, because that means you were trained to turn away from that idea. That's very much what society is hoping to do.
But in the context of this article, it's good to keep in mind 16 is perfectly normal where this took place.

I personally wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason why the transguy pretends to be younger is that he's trans and looks more feminine, and so people might get more suspicious if he gave his real age. Obviously, he didn't want people to know he was trans.
I've made my opinion on the subject clear: I think it's best to disclose, and to disclose early. But this law idea is horrible. As they said, it's not illegal to pretend to be single while you cheat on your wife, to name one example.

I don't usually see a problem with big(ish) age difference. My first experience at 19 was with a 36 year old. My ex-husband was 8 years older than me (20 and 28 when we started dating). My ex before him was 25 and I was 19. When I was in high school a friend of mine only dated guys around the age of 25, from the time she was 16 to 18 (last I saw her since after that we were both out of high school).
But I don't think lying about your age is very ethical either. I find it interesting that they want the "lying about being trans" part to become illegal, but don't really make a mention of "lying about your age" becoming illegal, even though it also happened.

[Hylleddin]

She said she really wants to say that's fine, it doesn't make a difference, but doesn't want to discover half way through that actually it does and have to disappoint me then. She also apologised for being a poohead!

Sounds like she's mature enough to be aware of her potential failings. I bet she'll be fine in the long run. Good luck to you two!

--

That Scottish case is all kinds of wrong on all sides.

And since when is nondisclosure fraud? Just because so many people assume everyone's cis doesn't mean we're lying when we don't go out of our way to tell people we're not.

[Coidzor]

But I don't think lying about your age is very ethical either. I find it interesting that they want the "lying about being trans" part to become illegal, but don't really make a mention of "lying about your age" becoming illegal, even though it also happened.

Too much precedent against them, most likely, so they couldn't.

[SiuiS]

Ugh. This is no good at all.

This entire case is full of what.

On the surface, good idea. Beneath the surface, bad idea. I don't even.

Well, I just took the plunge and told the OKC girl about being trans. She's okay with it as a thing, but said she's not sure about a relationship with a trans girl - I think she's going to do some soul searching. She says she definitely wants to be friends, at the very least.

Cool!

I'm not arguing this anymore.

Resolution!
In all fairness, while I disagree with Coidzor, I see his point. He is saying, correct me if I'm wrong Coid, that regardless of legality or ethicality, his opinion is it is gross. That's no more wrong than a gay man's opinion of sex with women being "it's gross". I think he just didn't convey that to you clearly.

[Heliomance]

I understood him to be 22 when he actually slept with one of them. I suppose this is a cultural difference at play here, if it's so acceptable.

Don't get me wrong, I personally find it a bit icky. I'm just saying that culturally, relationships between 16 year old girls and guys in their 20s happen, and often enough to not be that unusual.

Heck, I briefly dated a 16 year old a couple of years ago. Nothing beyond kissing happened, and in my defense she was exceptionally mature for her age. but still. She was certainly more comfortable with the age gap than I was - she did't see anything wrong with it at all.

[Asta Kask]

Is cis-trans a binary or is it a gradient? In other words, do you think there are are trans-like cis people?

[SiuiS]

I would say binary. It's a clear case of "you're either [X] or you're not", except I'm not sure if [X] is Trans or Cis.

[Lycunadari]

I'd say gradient. Like now, I feel 90% cis and only 10% trans, while at other times I feel 100% trans, or 70% trans and 30% cis or any other split. I guess there are also people who lack this fluidity and are permanently partly cis and partly trans.

[Rain Dragon]

Is cis-trans a binary or is it a gradient? In other words, do you think there are are trans-like cis people?

If you want to think about gender itself as a gradient, there will be trans and cis people all over the place. The most masculine man could be trans or cis, the same with the most feminine woman.

Maybe you mean people who don't pass as well as they'd like? There are quite a few examples of feminine seeming men and masculine seeming women.

The definitions are a little more binary and are explained in the original post, so I don't think you mean those...

I don't know, I feel I've misread the question.

EDIT: Keveak has an awesome explanation.

-Giovanni

[Mina Kobold]

Is cis-trans a binary or is it a gradient? In other words, do you think there are are trans-like cis people?

Depends on exactly how you define them. Cis is usually defined as having a gender identity that matches your assigned sex and Trans as having one that is different from your assigned sex. From that, it is not a binary, as it is possibly to have no gender identity at all, thus being neither Trans, Cis, nor in between.

If we strictly go by people with gender identity, I am not terribly sure. Certainly would be possibly to be not entirely comfortable with one's assigned sex, while not in direct conflict with it. Certainly, the existence of Bigender identities and the sheer amount of other varieties of gender identities would suggest a lot of ways to mix or grade the two. A gradient may be useful, but I am not sure if it would reflect the different ways to have a gender identity or not have one. Sorries.^_^'

[SiuiS]

How do you mean, luv?
And then Astrella's post was no more?

[Astrella]

(Overemphasis on) spectrums (is) are silly.

The problem with labels describing identities is that the more you go and try and establish boundaries for such subjective labels, the bigger the dangers is that they become prescriptive, and labels becoming prescriptive has a big risk of harm attached to it. My opinion is that if someone wants / feels comfortable with a label, they'll pick it up and that's that.

Lena's Linkies:

Zinnia Jones actually made quite a few good points on this topic in a recent post. (I haven't finished the Natalie Reed article she refers to so I can't really comment on that yet.

Talking about Zinia Jones, this biography article on Autostraddle about her is a pretty neat read too. (I'm also throwing in a recommendation for Autostraddle itself, it's mostly queer women oriented but they have great series on trans(feminine) stuff and the site and community is just pretty great in general.)

This r/ainbow thread has a huge list of queer webcomics for those interested.

-----

Also hugs and sympathies for everyone in the thread. I'm mostly out of the huge dysphoric slump I was in the week before and the start of this week, so I can start contributing again.

[Asta Kask]

What's the important part of a trans-gender identity? That there is a lack congruence between gender assigned at birth and self-reported gender identity. But can a gender identity be weaker or stronger? If it can be, then we can have cis people with a weaker or stronger gender identity. And people with a weak gender identity can be described as 'trans-like'. Is this the case?

[SiuiS]

(Overemphasis on) spectrums (is) are silly.

The problem with labels describing identities is that the more you go and try and establish boundaries for such subjective labels, the bigger the dangers is that they become prescriptive, and labels becoming prescriptive has a big risk of harm attached to it. My opinion is that if someone wants / feels comfortable with a label, they'll pick it up and that's that.

Thanks. Sorry for bringing it up right after you removed it.

Also hugs and sympathies for everyone in the thread. I'm mostly out of the huge dysphoric slump I was in the week before and the start of this week, so I can start contributing again.

I'm glad!

What's the important part of a trans-gender identity? That there is a lack congruence between gender assigned at birth and self-reported gender identity. But can a gender identity be weaker or stronger? If it can be, then we can have cis people with a weaker or stronger gender identity. And people with a weak gender identity can be described as 'trans-like'. Is this the case?

I still say no. A door which is partially closed, or even mostly closed, is still open. It's either/or.

However, I don't think there is an inherently important part of a trans gender identity. The important part of my gender identity is me, not whatever said identity may be, and that A) it does not match presentation and B) my getting it to do so. The important part of female, to me, is female; trans or Cis are just two ways of getting there, high road and low road. When the point of travel is being in New York, getting there by plane or by train is a curiosity at best.

[Asta Kask]

I'd like to make a distinction here. It is not an important part of your identity, Suis, because you are not reducible to your trans-ness. But it can be the important part of the trans identity, the thing all trans people share. The Platonic trans-ness, as it were. Why someone calls hirself trans (I have a hard time believing its for the fringe benefits). That's what I meant by what I wrote.

[SiuiS]

I'd like to make a distinction here. It is not an important part of your identity, Suis, because you are not reducible to your trans-ness. But it can be the important part of the trans identity, the thing all trans people share. The Platonic trans-ness, as it were. Why someone calls hirself trans (I have a hard time believing its for the fringe benefits). That's what I meant by what I wrote.

I think I'm failing in getting across, though. Let me try again.

When playing, say, dungeons and dragons 3.5, a group of people want to have a dark, gritty game of supernatural horror without easy answers, we're morality matters and things are dreck. Sure, they could mod and house rule the 3.5 rules to do it, but... Why not play a system that up ports that game type better?

Someone calls themselves trans because that is the preexisting label for the phenomenon. As they get more familiar maybe they stop worrying about the label, but I do not see a platonic trans state as really existing. It is a word for a concept, because humans are capable of meta thought, in the same way the boo is by definition not a thing and yet still named, and use tradable through the name.

I understand what you are asking, I think, but I do not see the question as being a good one for you to ask. The answer does not have any real value (I presume; I do not know what prompted the inquiry) and only serves to distract one into thinking that because they have an answer they have achieve something. it is, in my mind, a mental trap. One isn't making a discovery, they are adding granularity to something that won't benefit from it. I was just trying to convey tat without accidentally insulting you. :(

Mm. I think I'm talking pat you based on a miaconstruance. If so, I apologize.

[Asta Kask]

It's a distinction without a difference? I can accept that. What prompted these? Curiosity - the idea struck me and I went here.

[Mina Kobold]

(Overemphasis on) spectrums (is) are silly.

The problem with labels describing identities is that the more you go and try and establish boundaries for such subjective labels, the bigger the dangers is that they become prescriptive, and labels becoming prescriptive has a big risk of harm attached to it. My opinion is that if someone wants / feels comfortable with a label, they'll pick it up and that's that.

Muchie agreed. Descriptive labels are fairly useful in medical settings and workspaces (Good to know if someone is a Concept Artist or Programmer, for example. :3), but should be treated very cautiously when it comes to identities and lives. Putting down definite rules on labels is more likely than not to hurt people's abilities to find their own paths, which is rather central to labels in this context.

This r/ainbow thread has a huge list of queer webcomics for those interested.

O_O

So, many, webcomics...

Thank you! ^_^

Also hugs and sympathies for everyone in the thread. I'm mostly out of the huge dysphoric slump I was in the week before and the start of this week, so I can start contributing again.

Yay! Glad to hear that you feel better, that sounds terrible.

[Kindablue]

Music I thought should go here.

[Phae Nymna]

UGA's LGBT group is coming to my GSA tomorrow. I'm having a party planning panic.

[Astrella]

Oh, neat. What's UGA?

[Asta Kask]

University of Gay Adulterers?

[TaiLiu]

United Gay Alliance?

[golentan]

Hey guys. I know I've been absent a lot lately. I've had a lot on my plate.

So, past week a bunch of my buttons got pushed, including the "men who have had sex with men can't give blood" button. So yeah. I don't have any real commentary on spectrums and identity.

UGA: I'm guessing University of Georgia, but I'm going to say it's short for Uga Buga, a secret order of cryptoneanderthals who have guided humanity since the dawn of history.