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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default is Haley a Draketooth?

    So I was reading over some of the older comics, and got to the part where she says (in cryptogram) "Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call..."

    "Human" is one obvious end to that sentence. And the way she loves counting gold pieces, being part dragon would add up.
    Then, a couple things fell into place
    1) She and her dad have red hair (or, her dad *did*, in flashbacks. his nickname used to be "Red", also)
    2) Her dad is paranoid and untrusting of anyone not family (the Draketooth signature)
    3) V's "familicide" spell chained from person to person, older to younger
    4) Haley's dad was in Tarquin's prison at the time... which has an antimagic field.


    If this adds up the way I think it does, it might also be worth bringing up Eugene Greenhilt's prophecy from the first adventure ("when the goat turns, red strikes true"). That "fulfillment" always struck me as a little unsatisfactory... Nale being a goat seemed a bit of a stretch, it's the only time anyone's ever referred to Haley as "Red" (unlike her father), and she made the shot by rolling a natural 20 rather than by power of plot.

    Interesting?
    Last edited by sleepy; 2013-04-08 at 06:44 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepy View Post
    So I was reading over some of the older comics, and got to the part where she says (in cryptogram) "Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call..."

    "Human" is one obvious end to that sentence. And the way she loves counting gold pieces, being part dragon would add up.
    Then, a couple things fell into place
    1) She and her dad have red hair (or, her dad *did*, in flashbacks. his nickname used to be "Red", also)
    2) Her dad is paranoid and untrusting of anyone not family (the Draketooth signature)
    3) V's "familicide" spell chained from person to person, older to younger
    4) Haley's dad was in Tarquin's prison at the time... which has an antimagic field.


    If this adds up the way I think it does, it might also be worth bringing up Eugene Greenhilt's prophecy from the first adventure ("when the goat turns, red strikes true"). That "fulfillment" always struck me as a little unsatisfactory... Nale being a goat seemed a bit of a stretch, it's the only time anyone's ever referred to Haley as "Red" (unlike her father), and she made the shot by rolling a natural 20 rather than by power of plot.

    Interesting?
    Interesting, yes. It is a theory that has been brought up before. Likely, no.

    While the characteristics you cite are suggestive (though not conclusive), I think the whole Familicide thing puts the tin hat on this theory. I don't get how Haley's dad being in an anti-magic field would afford Haley any protection from the spell.
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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Then how the heck did she survive the familicide spell?

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Pretty much what Epic said. Given that she still has a pulse, I'm inclined to say no.

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    This theory has come up before Familicide (and is almost invariably based on the red hair), but now that we know the full extent of V's spell it's highly unlikely, because it would have killed Haley.

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepy View Post
    3) V's "familicide" spell chained from person to person, older to younger
    It also chained younger to older; we know this because it killed Penelope due to having a child via Orrin.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    - Her skin tone is too fair.
    - She has no markings on her skin while the recently dead members of the family we saw had them.

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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    No.

    Seriously, I thought this was settled like, a decade ago.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    While I don't think Haley is a Draketooth, the Cloister spell may have prevented Familicide from tracking her. Haley thought Cloister would protect them from Chuck's scrying when they arrived, and Celia (who can sense abjurations) didn't correct her. Then the Familicide takes place a few days or so after that so the Cloister may have still been active.
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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Cloister may or may not have prevented it, but I find it doubtful that a bog-standard anti-magic field would. After all, the spell killed black dragons, who are naturally magic-resistant.
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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    People who think Cloister was an "immune to any spell Rich wants anyone it's on to be immune to" blank check need to reread the strip where Celia spells out exactly what the spell does and doesn't do.

    In the meantime, suffice to say that it didn't make Haley immune to Tsukiko's Electric Orbs and it wouldn't have made her immune to Familicide, had anyone cast Familicide on someone related to her.
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    This, in a nutshell.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    We see a guy in the anti-magic cells getting zapped with Familicide. Page two, panel four.

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Epic View Post
    Then how the heck did she survive the familicide spell?
    Easy - she didn't.

    Now that's something to ponder about
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    We see a guy in the anti-magic cells getting zapped with Familicide. Page two, panel four.
    That might not necessarily be in one of Tarquin's prisons (though AMF prison cells are of course not exclusive to Tarquin's empires, as seen in Azure City).
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Haley is Gerrard and Redcloak's illegitimate half-camel son. As logic dictates.

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Let's presume your assessment of the older-to-younger chain is accurate, for the sake of argument.

    If it always tries the older relative first; if it is designed so that when it cannot affect the older relative, it skips every sub-branch in the chain...

    ...then it would not have killed the Draketooth clan. Girard was dead at the time of the casting. Ergo, older relative unavailable and offspring are spared.
    Last edited by Fish; 2013-04-08 at 09:27 AM.
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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Actually, this could be a fun new game: Spot The Draketooths!

    Go through the comic and look for anyone with red hair, because only Draketeeth have red hair. See how many you can spot!

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Plus, if Haley was a Draketooth, either her mother or father would also have been a Draketooth, and she and her Draketooth parent would have lived at the pyramid on the Western Continent. And not raised by both her parents (the Draketooths are even more paranoid that the Starshines, in that not even spouses are considered part of the family) in Greysky City on the Eastern Continent.
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    Imp

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Epic View Post
    Then how the heck did she survive the familicide spell?
    She's secretly undead.
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  19. - Top - End - #19
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    You have the Draketooth family tree here. As you can see, the most closely related Haley could be to the Draketooths is through a theoretical brother or sister of Giraud's grandmother, which would make the connection irrelevant. Otherwise she would have been killed by familicide. Even if you were to accept that Cloister did protect her from it, Ian Starshine is still alive.

    So, in short, I do not think so.

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    This theory has come up before Familicide (and is almost invariably based on the red hair), but now that we know the full extent of V's spell it's highly unlikely, because it would have killed Haley.



    It also chained younger to older; we know this because it killed Penelope due to having a child via Orrin.
    That doesn't actually mean anything for his theory, though, since the link for Penelope was via Orrin (through their child), and if Ian is the link for Haley, then blocking that link would keep Haley out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Let's presume your assessment of the older-to-younger chain is accurate, for the sake of argument.

    If it always tries the older relative first; if it is designed so that when it cannot affect the older relative, it skips every sub-branch in the chain...

    ...then it would not have killed the Draketooth clan. Girard was dead at the time of the casting. Ergo, older relative unavailable and offspring are spared.
    The spell clearly follows the link of dead family members. I am unsure why you think this means it also takes those who are placed in an anti-magic field.

    The theory being posited is that if a person who constitutes a link in the Familicide-chain is in an anti-magic field, the anti-magic field prevents the chain from following that link, which causes it to skip everyone that would have been affected through it -- thus preventing it from affecting Haley and Ian.

    I don't personally buy it, but there does not seem to be any direct evidence against the logic -- it's sound enough.

  21. - Top - End - #21
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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post

    I don't personally buy it, but there does not seem to be any direct evidence against the logic -- it's sound enough.
    Well, the fact that Girard was already dead and the spell still took out all his descendants, not caring that he was dead, suggests that finding a dead/magically shielded person didn't stop the spell from continuing on and doing what it would do if that person were alive/not magically shielded.
    Last edited by SaintRidley; 2013-04-08 at 10:59 AM.
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    No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    How could "blocking" Ian from the spell shield Haley? Everybody related to Ian is also related to Haley. If the spell were able to kill him, it would have been able to kill her in the SAME step.

    Step 1: Kill everyone related to the target creature.
    Step 2: Kill everyone related to anyone killed in step 1.

    If Ian is related to the target creature, so is Haley. If Ian is related to somebody related to the target creature... so is Haley.

    Somebody like Penelope could have been spared from the spell if a connection were "blocked", since the connection was through her CHILD. Not everyone related to her child was related to her. But you ARE related to everyone your parents are related to. So if Ian's vulnerable through a relative, Haley's vulnerable through the same relative.
    Last edited by B. Dandelion; 2013-04-08 at 11:18 AM.

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Cloister may or may not have prevented it, but I find it doubtful that a bog-standard anti-magic field would. After all, the spell killed black dragons, who are naturally magic-resistant.
    Good reasoning. Every epic spell has a decent chance of smashing through standard anti-magic. Plus we have reason to believe that not a single dragon survived being touched by Familicide, which is a pretty startling effect given the robust defenses common to dragons. If Familicide can defeat 100% of the dragons' SR, it can be expected to defeat normal anti-magic 100% of the time as well.

    Besides, my understanding is that Haley and her father are visitors to this continent. No reason to expect a deeper connection.

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    As other said before, Haley being a Draketooth is very unlikely. As for the prophecy, Nale is a "goat" in the sense that he has a goatee, as Haley herself mentioned just before Roy figured it out. As for the natural 20, it is a plot driven success. This is not a game of D&D, they make "rolls", yes, but not really in the litteral sense. In that regard, you can safely decide that it's fate that decide that she rolled a 20.

    If this was a game, the DM would have either prevent her to roll when she state that she shoot at Nale or said it hit regardless of the die.

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    Actually, this could be a fun new game: Spot The Draketooths!

    Go through the comic and look for anyone with red hair, because only Draketeeth have red hair. See how many you can spot!
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    That doesn't actually mean anything for his theory, though, since the link for Penelope was via Orrin (through their child), and if Ian is the link for Haley, then blocking that link would keep Haley out of it.
    The two statements in my post were actually unrelated. I was debunking the theory with the first one (Haley is alive), and specifically refuting the quoted point in my second (Familicide does not merely go older to younger as we saw with Penelope.) The Penelope-Orrin bit was unrelated to "Haley Draketooth."
    Last edited by Psyren; 2013-04-08 at 11:45 AM.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pigkappa View Post
    She has no markings on her skin while the recently dead members of the family we saw had them.
    That's not a natural marking, it's a tattoo.
    Last edited by Zmeoaice; 2013-04-08 at 11:48 AM.

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    I will answer that question with a question.

    Is Haley dead?
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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zmeoaice View Post
    That's not a natural marking, it's a tattoo.
    Looks like a tattoo, but seems more like a visual mark of Draconic ancestry (and not necessarily always on the face - see bottom left woman). Most would take it to be a tattoo, but I feel confident in saying that it's with them from birth.
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  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    How could "blocking" Ian from the spell shield Haley? Everybody related to Ian is also related to Haley. If the spell were able to kill him, it would have been able to kill her in the SAME step.

    Step 1: Kill everyone related to the target creature.
    Step 2: Kill everyone related to anyone killed in step 1.

    If Ian is related to the target creature, so is Haley. If Ian is related to somebody related to the target creature... so is Haley.
    Yes, she is -- but her connection is through Ian; every gene that would be related to the Draketooths come from him. The spell seems to spread from subject to subject, thus it is possible that if a given familial connection is broken beyond the limits of the spell, as it might be while the subject is with an anti-magic field, the spell cannot find a familial connection.

    It is more than possible that the spell doesn't need to spread from one person to the next, but we don't know the particulars.

    The reason doesn't have to be perfect or iron-clad, it simply has to be a possibility. I don't agree that Haley and Ian are related to the Draketooths, and I do not personally think an anti-magic field would stop the spell, but as far as I can see, the possibility, however remote it may seem, does exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    Well, the fact that Girard was already dead and the spell still took out all his descendants, not caring that he was dead, suggests that finding a dead/magically shielded person didn't stop the spell from continuing on and doing what it would do if that person were alive/not magically shielded.
    You are equating being dead with being magically shielded. They are not remotely similar conditions, so why are you doing that?

    The fact that Girard is dead proves that the spell works across dead generations. That's all it proves. It has no bearing on whether someone could be shielded from the effect by being in an anti-magic field.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    Looks like a tattoo, but seems more like a visual mark of Draconic ancestry (and not necessarily always on the face - see bottom left woman). Most would take it to be a tattoo, but I feel confident in saying that it's with them from birth.
    There's none on the baby girl. While we only see her face, it's at least indicative.

    I personally believe it's a tattoo, since that's all we've ever seen it referred to as. Dragon blood would be very diluted after so many generations.

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    Default Re: is Haley a Draketooth?

    What evidence is there that it goes from oldest to youngest? The chain could simply be "closest in physical space."
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