"Luck" checks?

[AttilaTheGeek]

I've come to some realizations after having two characters die on me. One was when we walked into the room of the final confrontation and were dismayed to find an empty room, but then the invisible rogue BBEG stabbed me in the back, rolled really well, and I died. This was basically akin to a "rocks fall, you die" moment. I only later found out OOC that I was chosen at random, and that the odds of oneshotting me were actually tiny. The other was similar, but the DM rolled a die in front of us to see who would be randomly, and then rolled attack and damage in front of us. Seeing a 5, 5, 4, 6, 5, and a 6 rolled on 6d6 sneak attack made me feel a lot less targeted.

On to the actual question. I'm about to start DMing my first game (Pathfinder) and the players have a mix of experience and optimization levels. So what I think I'm going to do is start asking for "luck checks" from the players. Just a simple d20 roll (unless they actually have luck modifiers, which they probably won't) to see how fate is doing. If the party rolls 14, 19, 17, and 16, then 1d4+1 summoned monsters would become two. But if they roll 2, 3, 1, and 5, then there might be 5. Or maybe the BBEG wizard casts a save-or-suck on whoever is the least lucky. I'd do it to give players an illusion of a little bit of control over their fate, to prevent them from feeling targeted. How does that sound?

[jedipilot24]

I would treat Luck as a seventh ability score and apply the Luck modifier in situations where luck becomes important, like particularly dramatic moments where everything hangs on one die roll. Indeed, characters might not even know whether their Luck modifier is positive or negative.

D&D has handled Luck in several different ways: the Luck feats in Complete Scoundrel, the Luckstealer Prestige Class in Races of the Wild, and the Fatespinner Prestige Class in Complete Arcane.

Also consider Action Points from UA.

[Slipperychicken]

DC 20 Listen/Perception check (+ enemy stealth check if he's Stealthed) can pinpoint characters through sound. You should have had a chance to detect the BBEG.

If the enemies are smart and the GM's dice are hot, PCs may well die. Enemies should target what they perceive to be the biggest threat, in the way they feel is best. That's part of the game IMO.

Also, rolling a d20 does not give any feeling of control. Quite the opposite . Luck checks are already in the game: it's called the d20.

[LibraryOgre]

Hackmaster has a few built-in mechanics to deal with this. They're somewhat similar, but...

Honor is something like your dharmic place in the universe. You gain honor by acting in character (according to class, alignment, and personality). You lose honor by not standing up for yourself and through honor burn.
See, if you have a high honor, you get benefits. A floating +1 every night. The ability to reroll a single roll each session. With really high honor, you can even force someone ELSE to reroll. If your honor gets (or starts) low enough, you can even wind up with a persistent 1 point penalty to pretty much everything.
But you can also burn honor. Spend a point of honor, move a result 1 point (or 5%) either way. Spend 10 points, and you can force a reroll (the costs increase with level).
So in the OP's situation, he could've chosen to burn honor to survive this.

Thieves, Fighter/Thieves, Mage/Thieves, and Rogues also have Luck points (Assassins do not, but the priests of the God of Chance do, of course). They work a lot like honor, but they're only for saving your hide and fixing your skills... you can't Luck yourself into a critical, but you can luck yourself OUT of a critical. If he were one of those classes, he could use luck to get out of such a hit, describing it as the BBEG hitting a buckle on his backpack or something like that.

If you're looking for random determinants, however, go with "Ok, everyone roll a d6 and tell me what you get." Pick low roll, high roll, whoever gets a 3... some way to choose randomly who gets killed.

[Kol Korran]

in my group the players roll nearly all the dice. we modify monster attacks to "PC defense", and PC spells' DC to "PC spell power" and so on. they also roll the random rolls, with me giving them at least a general idea of the outcome (nearly always high rolls are good for the PCs). they roll damage they get, they roll for random PC targeted (I just say "roll 1d4, X is 1, the rest are going up clockwise") and so on.

this has improved our game incredibly! first it has increased the Player-DM trust immensely, but it also had some other interesting effects- it made the world more immersive since the players had a more tangible feel of how the world interacts with them. it also improved player confidence a lot, and since they now had a much more clear view of the numbers involved, it made them act much more strategically and tactic wise.

If you need I can give you the details (I believe you are the math wis so you could check the math?) I recommend this approach highly.

[Baalthazaq]

To me, luck is a world event, not a player event.

If a player suddenly says: "Is there something flammable in this room?"
The answer doesn't change depending on who is in the room, or how many are in the room. Either there is, or isn't. (A search check might determine if you find it, but whether the item exists, is luck).

So what I tend to do for luck rolls, is tell the players what I think the odds are:
"Flammable... hmmmm... given where you are, I'd say 15% chance."

I then tell my players to pick high or low, then roll a D100. If they say high, top 15 gets the flammable item in the room, low, bottom 15.

Incidentally, one of my players is a "Fortune's Friend" who gets tons of luck feats, and I allow him to use his luck rerolls on those rolls too.

I always roll them in front of the players, and find I get a much better reaction than just saying yes or no to questions of luck. Players question dice less than the DM, and are usually happy that I tend to give them a shot at trying that thing they wanted to try, especially if it was low odds.

Examples:

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Example I appreciated in a shadowrun game I was playing in: A troll had just puked on my clothes.
"Can I have spare clothes in the van?"
"No. Why would you?"
"I have a gym membership. I might have my gym clothes."
"Fair enough. Lets say 15% chance. Anything else?
"We're planning a 3 day stakeout next week, maybe I packed early?"
"We'll bump it to 20%"
"And... I'm an elf and a girl?"
"... we'll make it 21%"
*Rolled 19*
"Today was apparently gym day, congratulations, you have some puke free clothes"

Example 2: We were at a banquet in a WHFRP game.

"What's on the table?"
*gives a description*
"Is there any butter I could pinch?"
"That's reasonable... I'll give you 75% chance, high or low?"
"High"
*Rolls 72*
"Good enough, you pinch a full half pound of butter"

Much later in the day, as we were escaping down a polished marble staircase, I buttered 3 of the steps.

[Rhynn]

Don't add too many unnecessary dice rolls to playing. When you need to determine who gets targeted by a random effect, just roll dX, where X is the number of characters in the situation.

I always do this. I take a die, say "okay, randomly choosing the target, you're 1, and it goes clockwise around the table" and roll. Whoever the die picks is the target. Fair, open, simple. I also frequently roll attacks and damage openly, although that depends on the game and the style I want - I definitely prefer to do it in D&D 3E.

[AttilaTheGeek]

this has improved our game incredibly! first it has increased the Player-DM trust immensely, but it also had some other interesting effects- it made the world more immersive since the players had a more tangible feel of how the world interacts with them. it also improved player confidence a lot, and since they now had a much more clear view of the numbers involved, it made them act much more strategically and tactic wise.

If you need I can give you the details (I believe you are the math wis so you could check the math?) I recommend this approach highly.

This is exactly the effect I'm trying to achieve. I'm also happy to hear I'm known as the math person!

So what I tend to do for luck rolls, is tell the players what I think the odds are:
"Flammable... hmmmm... given where you are, I'd say 15% chance."

I then tell my players to pick high or low, then roll a D100. If they say high, top 15 gets the flammable item in the room, low, bottom 15.

This seems like an interesting system. I like it. I think I'll try it out, though the first session won't be for a while.

[Baalthazaq]

We useit for bad luck too, but then I don't usually tell the party what it is, or what the range is.

Me: "High or Low guys?"
Party: "Low... "
47%.
Party: "Is... that low enough?"
Me: Maybe you'll find out....

Also, very occasionally, do it for no reason.

[ArcturusV]

I like the "Luck" checks. I don't use them for combat so much as I use it for... well... events more or less based on luck. Say a Goblin is sneaking through the camp (Guy on watch miserably sucked on his detection roll or the Goblin was that sneaky). I'll usually ask players to throw a dice, each of them, just to determine the order that the Goblin might rob the characters. I mean there's no "Threat Recognition" in that way. And Adventurers tend to split loot (And should be common knowledge the thief would know), so there's no clearly better target.

It also avoids some feelings that you're picking on someone around the table. I mean there is only so many times (Even if it was random and you determined it with an unexplained dice roll) that you can end up having something happen to a guy before he thinks you're arbitrarily picking on him, or takes it personally.

[Kol Korran]

This is exactly the effect I'm trying to achieve. I'm also happy to hear I'm known as the math person!

Actually, I'd like you to check the math, if you have the time. I came to the way it works and the main "magic" number of 22 mostly by playing with numbers and seeing that it consistently works out. But I never quite understood why... I'm not much of a math person (sadly). My instinct tells me the number should be 20?

anyway, here are the rules from our current site, I'd love you to check them out, and maybe explain to me WHY they work? (in layman terms if possible ) or maybe point me to an error?

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You throw most of the dice: when the monster tries to hit you, you throw a defensive roll with the DC I tell you. The same when you cast a spell on a monster- a spell roll. This leads to transparency and less headache for me. and strangely enough- to more interesting and tactical battles. The target number for d20s is always 22+ the enemy's modifier (attack roll or saving throw most likely). The chances come up equal to the normal system. I'll tell you what the target number is.

Defensive roll: Lets say you have an AC of 16, and the monster has +8 to hit. it hits you on an 8 or more, meaning you have 35% of avoiding getting hit (1-7) i calculate "monster attack value"= 22+to hit (check out the percentages later to be hit later, it works out). This comes out as 30. i tell you to roll d20 and you add your AC. so you need 14 or more to avoid getting hit. Percentage wise, this gives you 35 % of avoiding getting hit- 14-20.

spell roll is similar- spell DC14 and the monster has +2 to save. it needs 12 to succeed, or 55% to fail (1-11). monster's save DC is 22+ saving throw= 24. you need 10 or more to succeed on your roll (you add the DC14), or 55% to succeed (10-20)

thanks in advance! (if you have the time, no pressure)

[TheOOB]

This was basically akin to a "rocks fall, you die" moment.

"Rocks fall everybody dies" is actually a tool of DM frustration with their players, abusing rule 0 to get rid of them.

I personally don't like luck checks. Luck is already a huge factor in D&D, you roll dice for almost anything with a chance of failure, so character luck is already a thing. Adding another random element just skews the game further in the NPCs favor.(Remember the old adage, randomness always favors the NPCs).

While I wasn't there, the rogue 1 shotting your party member sounds like bad game design by the DM. Having an unavoidable threat deal that kind of damage isn't fun, it's not punishing you for a mistake, it's just random. A threat should always be something the players have a chance to counter or overcome, or else there should be significant evidence before hand that engaging that threat is a really bad idea. Further, you shouldn't randomly adjust encounter difficulty, make the encounters as difficult as they need to be to challenge the party as much as you want for that situation.

[huttj509]

Actually, I'd like you to check the math, if you have the time. I came to the way it works and the main "magic" number of 22 mostly by playing with numbers and seeing that it consistently works out. But I never quite understood why... I'm not much of a math person (sadly). My instinct tells me the number should be 20?

anyway, here are the rules from our current site, I'd love you to check them out, and maybe explain to me WHY they work? (in layman terms if possible ) or maybe point me to an error?

Spoiler

Show

You throw most of the dice: when the monster tries to hit you, you throw a defensive roll with the DC I tell you. The same when you cast a spell on a monster- a spell roll. This leads to transparency and less headache for me. and strangely enough- to more interesting and tactical battles. The target number for d20s is always 22+ the enemy's modifier (attack roll or saving throw most likely). The chances come up equal to the normal system. I'll tell you what the target number is.

Defensive roll: Lets say you have an AC of 16, and the monster has +8 to hit. it hits you on an 8 or more, meaning you have 35% of avoiding getting hit (1-7) i calculate "monster attack value"= 22+to hit (check out the percentages later to be hit later, it works out). This comes out as 30. i tell you to roll d20 and you add your AC. so you need 14 or more to avoid getting hit. Percentage wise, this gives you 35 % of avoiding getting hit- 14-20.

spell roll is similar- spell DC14 and the monster has +2 to save. it needs 12 to succeed, or 55% to fail (1-11). monster's save DC is 22+ saving throw= 24. you need 10 or more to succeed on your roll (you add the DC14), or 55% to succeed (10-20)

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( -> signifies result of roll)
Normal: Die + mod >= AC -> player hit
Die >= AC - mod -> player hit
Thus
Die < AC - mod -> player not hit
Die - AC < -mod -> Player not hit

Hmm, we prefer "roll greater," so we multiply both sides by -1 and get (remember to flip the inequality)

AC - die > mod -> player not hit

Can we add the die roll instead? That'd let large numbers be good.

If we add 21 to both sides, we shift the die modifier from (-20 to -1) to (1 to 20). This is just a d20 roll, so we can add a d20 roll instead of subtracting a d20 roll, then adding 21 to the result. Now we have

AC + die > mod + 21

Hmmm, we'd prefer to see >=, to match what we normally use. We can do this by adding 1 to the right side. If we know x>y, x>=y+1 (assuming we have no fractions or decimals, which we don't).

AC + die > hitmod + 22

It doesn't match the "gut" of 20, because we're moving the range of the d20 result (need to move it up by 21 to not have a possibility of 0), and then the additional 1 comes from adding the "or equal" to the equation at the end. Definitely not an obvious thing as to what the number should be, unless you just brute force it with the needed roll (which you did). If we were rolling a d4, for example, we'd need hitmod + 6 instead.

[TuggyNE]

[…MATH…]

Hurray for the wackiness of ensuring you don't have off-by-one errors, eh?

[Jane_Smith]

Well, you could do what one of my old dm's did;

Back in the day he would give each player 3 luck points. At any time you could spend the luck point to be considered to have rolled a natural 20 and auto succeed or make a target get a natural 1 result and fumble. You could also use it to maximize or minimize damage dice for a single source.

However, if you used a luck point, you would hand it to the DM. The dm had 3 sessions to use that luck point before returning it to you. The first time he uses it, he hands it back to the person it belongs to. Meaning karma would come back and bite you right in the ass in the future, but usually not in a "rocks fall, you die" kinda moment. Usually our dm would just make mooks who rolled low suddenly roll high to wound us or make us fumble a big hit, while we used it to get free crit's on big threats or succeed on extremely dangerous saving throws from like a disintegration spell.

Trust me, there is nothing more horrifying then a dm sitting on 4-5 luck points when a fight with some kinda BBEG starts.

[mjlush]

On to the actual question. I'm about to start DMing my first game (Pathfinder) and the players have a mix of experience and optimization levels. So what I think I'm going to do is start asking for "luck checks" from the players. Just a simple d20 roll (unless they actually have luck modifiers, which they probably won't) to see how fate is doing.

I'd be more inclined to go for some kind of fate point system ie spend a fate point and get a reroll of any dice roll (or if your feeling more generous set of linked dice rolls) you get another fate point when you level or after the next session

If you have it as a dice roll you'll find it getting used all the time.. something like a fate point will be hoarded as insurance against the worst and there fore will do what you want (give some protection against the excesses of the dice) but won't have ubiquitous effect on the game.

I've noticed that if a player fudge factor is made powerful and rare ie Force points in the old WEG starwars which doubled your skill but took a while to come back, or the "level reroll" we had in a D&D game they almost Never Get Used

If its something more common like spend 100xp or a character point and get an extra dice there used every almost session

[mjlush]

While I wasn't there, the rogue 1 shotting your party member sounds like bad game design by the DM. Having an unavoidable threat deal that kind of damage isn't fun, it's not punishing you for a mistake, it's just random. A threat should always be something the players have a chance to counter or overcome, or else there should be significant evidence before hand that engaging that threat is a really bad idea. Further, you shouldn't randomly adjust encounter difficulty, make the encounters as difficult as they need to be to challenge the party as much as you want for that situation.

I recall he original issues was that the threat was something they could overcome/survive but the dice rolled really high so the character died.

What is a sufficient chance to counter or overcome? The odds on failing 8 50% saving throws is a row is 1 in 256. Good odds but given the number of rolls made in a long campaign things like that will crop up.

[NichG]

I think the point of this thread is that there are luck elements that are already in play (e.g. which character gets targetted randomly), but when the players aren't aware of those luck elements it can feel like the DM is intentionally picking on them as opposed to 'its just how the dice went'. So the OP is suggesting, rather than the DM secretly rolling those random elements, they should tell the players to roll and what the roll means so its more clear to the players that it is in fact 'just bad luck'.

Its more a player psychology thing than a game rules thing I think. At least at its core. I'd do the 'players roll all the dice' thing recommended higher up in the thread rather than making up a new system to try to implement this.

[Kol Korran]

< nifty math! >

I don't fully understand all of it, but it sounds damn convincing! thanks for checking it out. I feel better for it.

[AttilaTheGeek]

(math math math math math)

Yep. Looks good to me.

I think the point of this thread is that there are luck elements that are already in play (e.g. which character gets targetted randomly), but when the players aren't aware of those luck elements it can feel like the DM is intentionally picking on them as opposed to 'its just how the dice went'. So the OP is suggesting, rather than the DM secretly rolling those random elements, they should tell the players to roll and what the roll means so its more clear to the players that it is in fact 'just bad luck'.

Its more a player psychology thing than a game rules thing I think. At least at its core. I'd do the 'players roll all the dice' thing recommended higher up in the thread rather than making up a new system to try to implement this.

This is exactly it. You said it better than I did. (emphasis mine)

[LibraryOgre]

Oh, and HoL! HoL (which stood for "Human Occupied Landfill"... it is a horribly NSFW game put out many moons ago by White Wolf) had a mechanic called "Grace of God Points." Each session, the DM rolled 1d6-1. That's the number of GoG points your entire party had each session... not each, the party in total. You were not told what this number was. If your character was about to die horribly, you could call for a GoG point to save you. If you had a point left, you were saved by some coincidence. If you called for a point and DIDN'T have it, the GM was encouraged to be especially sadistic (and in a game where the form of currency was the unhatched eggs of psychotic maws of teeth and violence, that was substantially sadistic).

[Guizonde]

during my first dm'ing experience, i told my players i'd be using "luck rolls". it helped me decide how lucky or unlucky they should be. (classic d20, 1 bad 20 great). i roll 'em too to determine how gory the ork's latest critical hit is, on who falls the swamp barracuda, or which window the barbarian breaks through. it's mostly for rule of silly, but just telling the players to "roll luck, please" keeps me reassured. dm'ing scares me, honestly. i need every bit of comfort i can find, but i'm working on a way to make luck a hidden stat for the players with less fiating, since they enjoy the mechanic. even my dm coach has started asking for luck in dnd!

[Arbane]

To me, luck is a world event, not a player event.

If a player suddenly says: "Is there something flammable in this room?"
The answer doesn't change depending on who is in the room, or how many are in the room. Either there is, or isn't. (A search check might determine if you find it, but whether the item exists, is luck).

So what I tend to do for luck rolls, is tell the players what I think the odds are:
"Flammable... hmmmm... given where you are, I'd say 15% chance."

I like the Feng Shui system:

Q: "Is something flammable in this room?" (Assuming the room's not underwater or made entirely of metal)
A: "Yes."

Given how boring 'I swing at it" combat usually is, ANYTHING that encourages players to improvise is a GOOD thing.

[Rhynn]

I like the Feng Shui system:

Q: "Is something flammable in this room?" (Assuming the room's not underwater or made entirely of metal)
A: "Yes."

That's a pretty good approach in any RPG at all. If it's even remotely reasonable, let your players suggest details to the environment. It makes for a livelier game all around.

[Joe the Rat]

The old Mayfair-era DC Heroes (and successors) included a similar mechanic - using Hero Points (a joint point-buy XP & Luck/Fate/Grit pool) to find useful things in the environment (like that beaker of acid next to you on the bench whilst you are being strangled in a chemistry lab). The more improbable the alteration/clarification, the more it costs you.

That said, I like the Feng Shui approach better. But just remember that just because something useful is present, doesn't mean it's handy. Encourage mad dashes to get the random whatsit to make the wacky scheme work before the bad guy figures it out and/or stops you.

Generally I see luck mechanics as something to be invoked by players, and best used to deal with a player's particularly improbable series of rolls. Spending your luck to make a failed roll successful, or at least have another crack at it.
(My wacky thought: Rolling miserably on a d20, you can spend luck to "take 13")

[Lord Il Palazzo]

On to the actual question. I'm about to start DMing my first game (Pathfinder) and the players have a mix of experience and optimization levels. So what I think I'm going to do is start asking for "luck checks" from the players. Just a simple d20 roll (unless they actually have luck modifiers, which they probably won't) to see how fate is doing. If the party rolls 14, 19, 17, and 16, then 1d4+1 summoned monsters would become two. But if they roll 2, 3, 1, and 5, then there might be 5. Or maybe the BBEG wizard casts a save-or-suck on whoever is the least lucky. I'd do it to give players an illusion of a little bit of control over their fate, to prevent them from feeling targeted. How does that sound?

I don't think I would do this, at least not in this way. For one thing, you're rarely going to have a group of four of five players roll as consistantly well or consistantly poorly as in your example, so you'll end up with most of the enemies' rolls just being average with fewer chances for things to go really well or really poorly. I'm a big fan of variance so having a lot of it smoothed away strikes me as really dull.

Also, using this kind of roll to decide who the NPCs target in a fight turns them from characters the PCs are fighting into just a dice rolling contest. Enemy strategies should take the enemies' intelligences and personalities into account. If the enemy wizard has a high INT (as he should, being a wizard and all) why should he have a 1/4 chance of lobbing his Hideous Laughter at the PC who's obviously a druid or cleric instead of using it on someone more likely to fail the save? Why would an enemy rogue with his pick of who to sneak attack just randomly go after the barbarian or the paladin when the's got a better chance of hitting and gains a bigger advantage when he hits if he attacks the wizard? If something you're fighting has a brain, it should act like it, not be controlled by random dice rolls.

I would treat Luck as a seventh ability score and apply the Luck modifier in situations where luck becomes important, like particularly dramatic moments where everything hangs on one die roll. Indeed, characters might not even know whether their Luck modifier is positive or negative.

This could also cause problems, as a player with a low score in Luck would constantly be beaten up on, while someone who put a high number there would effecively get protection from everything bad. It also adds in an almost PvP element to the game when the players know something bad is going to happen to one of them and have to compete against each other not to get it.

[Baalthazaq]

I like the Feng Shui system:

Q: "Is something flammable in this room?" (Assuming the room's not underwater or made entirely of metal)
A: "Yes."

Given how boring 'I swing at it" combat usually is, ANYTHING that encourages players to improvise is a GOOD thing.

That's fine.

However, I would like to point out that "No." in that circumstance works pretty well too. Setting things on fire isn't exactly a novel concept to role players, nor something they need encouragement to do.

Having said that, I allow players to simply invent elements of the world as they go, especially if they're in a town they're supposed to be from. "There's a place we can stay not far from here called 'the swan and 3 cygnets', I used to have a thing for the serving wench there, Sarah I think her name was".

I even yield DM control in certain instances, and allow player full DM control of certain environments, provided no core rules are broken.

But for the circumstance I outlined in my previous post, the tension of a dice roll is, to me, preferred, and players tend to be more satisfied with a lucky break than a handout.

[AttilaTheGeek]

I don't think I would do this, at least not in this way.

You make a lot of very good points. After discussing them with my players, I've come to the conclusion that you're completely right. I don't think it's a system I'll use, or if I do I will use it very sparingly.

[Amphetryon]

Check out the rules for the Jinx PrC in the 3rd Party section of the PFSRD; there may be some mechanics there which you would like to incorporate into your concept.

[Psyren]

I think Action Points are the best way to handle this sort of thing, allowing for all kinds of derring-do. If you really want to encourage the PCs to be heroic (or possibly reckless) give them a couple of action-point related feats for free, and/or even luck feats from CSco.