Paragon Project [3.5]

[EdroGrimshell]

I've always been a little disappointed with Racial Paragon Classes, only three levels, barely any useful class features beyond basics, no real time to emphasize racial features in the three short levels they provide. The only one really worth it is the Human Paragon, and that's because it is good as a generic filler for human characters.

I want to change that. So, I've started this thread, which I'm calling the Paragon Project, to make 20 Level Racial Paragon Classes that are actually able to emphasize the racial features and focuses of the race, and possibly make a few races as well. I don't have complete ideas for every racial paragon yet, but I have enough to work with.


Table of Content
Post 1) Introduction / Table of Content
Post 5) Human Paragon

Other Races to be added and linked to as they're posted

To-Do List

Spoiler

Show

Dwarf Paragon
Elf Paragon
Gnome Paragon
Halfling Paragon
Half-Elf Paragon
Half-Orc Paragon
Orc Paragon
Elan Paragon
Maenad Paragon
Xeph Paragon
Synad Paragon
Shifter Paragon
Changeling Paragon
Warforged Paragon
Kalashtar Paragon
Daelkyr Halfblood Paragon
Azurin Paragon
Skarn Paragon
Rilkan Paragon
Duskling Paragon

Note: These are only LA 0, Non-Homebrew Races. I will be adding more as I go, but will only do LA 0 Races from the books, if anyone wants to see a higher LA race, ask and I will consider it.

[Razanir]

I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish. All you'll be doing is taking even more time away that they could be devoting to other classes. There'd have to be some serious benefits for me to spend more than like 3 levels becoming the elfiest elf there ever was instead of preparing to break the campaign as a wizard. What I'm doing in my campaign instead is offering "paragon feats" which you can take at level 1 to become a more powerful version of the race

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish. All you'll be doing is taking even more time away that they could be devoting to other classes. There'd have to be some serious benefits for me to spend more than like 3 levels becoming the elfiest elf there ever was instead of preparing to break the campaign as a wizard.

Agreed. I think 3 levels is about the most that the system can really support for something as specialized as a race-improving PrC. Unless you're incredibly creative with your design and don't mind shoehorning races into a very specific set of abilities, I think this won't really A: measure up to other classes, and B: be interesting enough to support 20 levels.

Curious to see what you have planned though.

[Zman]

I have to agree with what the others have said. I'd rather see three well redesigned levels which can be useful to a variety of builds instead of a 20 level base class.

[EdroGrimshell]

Human Paragon

Fluff to be added.

Hit Die: d8

{table=head]Lv|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+0|Jack of All Trades, Resilience
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+0|Knack, Bonus Feat
3rd|+2|+1|+1|+1|Dabbling
4th|+3|+1|+1|+1|Bonus Feat
5th|+3|+1|+1|+1|Born Inheritance (+2)
6th|+4|+2|+2|+2|Bonus Feat
7th|+5|+2|+2|+2|Diverse Ancestry
8th|+6|+2|+2|+2|Bonus Feat
9th|+6|+3|+3|+3|Dabbling
10th|+7|+3|+3|+3|Bonus Feat
11th|+8|+3|+3|+3|Born Inheritance (+4/+2)
12th|+9|+4|+4|+4|Bonus Feat
13th|+9|+4|+4|+4|Diverse Ancestry
14th|+10|+4|+4|+4|Bonus Feat
15th|+11|+5|+5|+5|Dabbling
16th|+12|+5|+5|+5|Bonus Feat
17th|+12|+5|+5|+5|Born Inheritance (+6/+4/+2)
18th|+13|+6|+6|+6|Bonus Feat
19th|+14|+6|+6|+6|Diverse Ancestry
20th|+15|+6|+6|+6|Bonus Feat[/table]
Class Skills: All Skills are Class Skills for the Human Paragon. 6 + Int Mod Skill Points (x4 at 1st level).

Wpn/Arm Prof: A human paragon is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields).

Jack of All Trades (Ex): A human paragon gains Jack of All Trades as a bonus feat at first level.

Resilience (Ex): A human paragon is skilled at staying alive, as such, they add their ability score twice to saving throws. Additionally, they recieve a +1 bonus on saving throws at 3rd level which increases to +2 at 9th level and to +3 at 15th level.

Knack (Ex): As the Bardic Knack ACF from the PHB2.

Bonus Feats: At every even numbered level, a Human Paragon gains a bonus feat of their choice.

Dabbling: A Human Paragon often dips into various fields of study, studying a little of this and a little of that to learn what they find appealing and useful. At 3rd level the Human Paragon can select one base class. They gain class features, and only class features, as if they had taken a number of levels in the chosen class equal to half their class level. This includes spells, powers, soulbinding, truenaming, meldshaping, and the like but does not include Bonus Feats.

At 9th and 15th level, the Human Paragon may select a second base class or a prestige class he meets the requirements for. He gains the class features, including progressing abilities from other classes, of that class as if he had a number of levels in it equal to one fourth his Human Paragon level.

Born Inheritance (Ex): At 5th level and every six levels thereafter the Human Paragon gains a +2 to an ability score of their choice and increases the bonus added to any previously selected ability score by two.

Diverse Ancestry (Ex): At 7th level and every six levels thereafter the Human Paragon gains a free bloodline level for any one bloodline of their choice that does not count towards their total levels. They gain the full benefits of the bloodline for their level. You can advance a bloodline you currently possess or gain a new bloodline regardless of your level, ignoring the normal level requirements for taking bloodline levels.

[EdroGrimshell]

I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish. All you'll be doing is taking even more time away that they could be devoting to other classes. There'd have to be some serious benefits for me to spend more than like 3 levels becoming the elfiest elf there ever was instead of preparing to break the campaign as a wizard. What I'm doing in my campaign instead is offering "paragon feats" which you can take at level 1 to become a more powerful version of the race

Agreed. I think 3 levels is about the most that the system can really support for something as specialized as a race-improving PrC. Unless you're incredibly creative with your design and don't mind shoehorning races into a very specific set of abilities, I think this won't really A: measure up to other classes, and B: be interesting enough to support 20 levels.

Curious to see what you have planned though.

I have to agree with what the others have said. I'd rather see three well redesigned levels which can be useful to a variety of builds instead of a 20 level base class.

To put it simply, these are stereotypes of the races. Elves are arcane swordsman that emphasize skill and speed augmented by their magical skill. Dwarves are warrior priests and craftsman devoted to Moradin. Gnomes are lighthearted tricksters and illusionists. It's the ones that epitomize the view of the race and their own skills.

I'm doing this as a self-project, I don't mind if people think it doesn't work, what I want is to make the classes and get feedback and ideas on them as they stand and as if they were normal base classes.

These will end up like base classes emphasizing the standards of the race, not just the racial features they possess. It's as simple as that.

[Razanir]

Human Paragon

Fluff to be added.

{table=head]Lv|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+0|Jack of All Trades, Resilience
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+0|Knack, Bonus Feat
3rd|+2|+1|+1|+1|Dabbling
4th|+3|+1|+1|+1|Bonus Feat
5th|+3|+1|+1|+1|Born Inheritance (+2)
6th|+4|+2|+2|+2|Bonus Feat
7th|+5|+2|+2|+2|Diverse Ancestry
8th|+6|+2|+2|+2|Bonus Feat
9th|+6|+3|+3|+3|Dabbling
10th|+7|+3|+3|+3|Bonus Feat
11th|+8|+3|+3|+3|Born Inheritance (+4/+2)
12th|+9|+4|+4|+4|Bonus Feat
13th|+9|+4|+4|+4|Diverse Ancestry
14th|+10|+4|+4|+4|Bonus Feat
15th|+11|+5|+5|+5|Dabbling
16th|+12|+5|+5|+5|Bonus Feat
17th|+12|+5|+5|+5|Born Inheritance (+6/+4/+2)
18th|+13|+6|+6|+6|Bonus Feat
19th|+14|+6|+6|+6|Diverse Ancestry
20th|+15|+6|+6|+6|Bonus Feat[/table]
Class Skills: All Skills are Class Skills for the Human Paragon. 6 + Int Mod Skill Points (x4 at 1st level).

Wpn/Arm Prof: A human paragon is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields).

Jack of All Trades (Ex): A human paragon gains Jack of All Trades as a bonus feat at first level.

Resilience (Ex): A human paragon is skilled at staying alive, as such, they add their ability score twice to saving throws. Additionally, they recieve a +1 bonus on saving throws at 3rd level which increases to +2 at 9th level and to +3 at 15th level.

Knack (Ex): As the Bardic Knack ACF from the PHB2.

Bonus Feats: At every even numbered level, a Human Paragon gains a bonus feat of their choice.

Dabbling: A Human Paragon often dips into various fields of study, studying a little of this and a little of that to learn what they find appealing and useful. At 3rd level and every six levels thereafter the Human Paragon can select one base class. They gain class features, and only class features, as if they had taken a number of levels in the chosen class equal to half their class level. This includes spells, powers, soulbinding, truenaming, meldshaping, and the like but does not include Bonus Feats.

Born Inheritance (Ex): At 5th level and every six levels thereafter the Human Paragon gains a +2 to an ability score of their choice and increases the bonus added to any previously selected ability score by two.

Diverse Ancestry (Ex): At 7th level and every six levels thereafter the Human Paragon gains a free bloodline level for any one bloodline of their choice that does not count towards their total levels.

My honest opinion? I'd almost rather be an actual fighter rather than stereotypical human superfighter number whatever. At least with the fighter class I get full BAB and one good save with all my excessively many bonus feats. The only thing keeping my interest in this class is the dabbling, and even then I'd just take actual levels in that class mainly because of the better saves

Like others have elaborated, paragon classes really work best as 3 levels, maybe 5. A three level class for the humaniest human there ever was might have 3/4 BAB, all good saves, a bonus feat at level 1, +2 to any 2/3 abilities, and something else.

[Pyromancer999]

I like the Human Paragon, except the saves. I'd say give one good save, one medium save, and one poor save, or one good save and two poor saves. And have the player choose those. Dabbling might be okay for the first class chosen, but I'd say that the benefit for the classes selected at 9th and 15th levels should be reduced. Maybe 1/4 level for the second class, then 1/6 level for the third, or 1/2 level -2 for 2nd class and 1/2 level - 4 for the 3rd.

[EdroGrimshell]

My honest opinion? I'd almost rather be an actual fighter rather than stereotypical human superfighter number whatever. At least with the fighter class I get full BAB and one good save with all my excessively many bonus feats. The only thing keeping my interest in this class is the dabbling, and even then I'd just take actual levels in that class mainly because of the better saves

Like others have elaborated, paragon classes really work best as 3 levels, maybe 5. A three level class for the humaniest human there ever was might have 3/4 BAB, all good saves, a bonus feat at level 1, +2 to any 2/3 abilities, and something else.

Not really what I want to hear since I already know that. That's not the point of this project, the point of this project is to just make Paragon Classes that are the race, they're balanced against each other. I'm not taking into account the other Base Classes except to draw inspiration. Sure, the Human Paragon is almost all numbers and feats, but they're the malleable base for any concept. They're meant to be a blank slate that works into a concept.

I like the Human Paragon, except the saves. I'd say give one good save, one medium save, and one poor save, or one good save and two poor saves. And have the player choose those. Dabbling might be okay for the first class chosen, but I'd say that the benefit for the classes selected at 9th and 15th levels should be reduced. Maybe 1/4 level for the second class, then 1/6 level for the third, or 1/2 level -2 for 2nd class and 1/2 level - 4 for the 3rd.

Hm, I see your point, as it is all the saves are average because of Resilience, that also gives them a boost from doubling the bonus added to saves by ability scores.

And that's true for Dabbling

[Pyromancer999]

Also, note for Diverse Inheritance:

Bloodlines require that the first level for the bloodline to be taken before 3rd(for a major bloodline), 6th(for an intermediate bloodline), and 12th(for a minor bloodline). Was it your goal that the Human Paragon can only select minor bloodlines?

[EdroGrimshell]

Also, note for Diverse Inheritance:

Bloodlines require that the first level for the bloodline to be taken before 3rd(for a major bloodline), 6th(for an intermediate bloodline), and 12th(for a minor bloodline). Was it your goal that the Human Paragon can only select minor bloodlines?

This class essentially ignores that rule

[Pyromancer999]

This class essentially ignores that rule

Okay, then. You may want to state that specifically, though, as well as the level that the Human Paragon begins gaining the benefits of that bloodline. Do they get it from level 1? Do they start gaining as a level 1 character at 7th, or gain all the benefits of the bloodline that a 7th level character would have gained, then progress from there? Needs to be more specific.

[Razanir]

Not really what I want to hear since I already know that. That's not the point of this project, the point of this project is to just make Paragon Classes that are the race, they're balanced against each other. I'm not taking into account the other Base Classes except to draw inspiration. Sure, the Human Paragon is almost all numbers and feats, but they're the malleable base for any concept. They're meant to be a blank slate that works into a concept.

In that case, I shall return with more PEACHes when you have other paragon classes to compare to

[ArcturusV]

I dunno if I like Dabbling. I mean with it at level 20 you are effectively a 10th level Wizard, 10th level Cleric, 10th level Druid, 10th level (Insert other "high tier"/"Inherently Broken" base classes) which makes it a huge powerhouse. I mean I know the idea is that they'll ONLY have 5th level casting, etc. But it's not level 9 spells that necessarily break the game. Good use of 5th level magic can and does too. And the Human Paragon has 5th level casting from potentially 6 different classes. And probably potential for abuse from cases like Practiced Spellcaster (off the top of my head) that lets him continue advancing several classes of spellcasting beyond the intended 1/2 level limitation making Human Paragon more Tier 1 than most Tier 1s?

I dunno. Rather have Dabbler be something like "Pick a spell or supernatural/extraordinary ability. You can use that 3/day.". Which is closer to what I think the intended feel of the ability was (Or maybe I'm horribly, horribly wrong). Cap it so they can only pick spells equal to 1/2 their level and are considered 1/2 level for caster level, regardless of other effects that boost caster level. Let it use Supernatural/Ex abilities at 1/2.

Still could be insanely powerful. But less obviously broken.

[ArkenBrony]

I dunno if I like Dabbling. I mean with it at level 20 you are effectively a 10th level Wizard, 10th level Cleric, 10th level Druid, 10th level (Insert other "high tier"/"Inherently Broken" base classes) which makes it a huge powerhouse. I mean I know the idea is that they'll ONLY have 5th level casting, etc. But it's not level 9 spells that necessarily break the game. Good use of 5th level magic can and does too. And the Human Paragon has 5th level casting from potentially 6 different classes. And probably potential for abuse from cases like Practiced Spellcaster (off the top of my head) that lets him continue advancing several classes of spellcasting beyond the intended 1/2 level limitation making Human Paragon more Tier 1 than most Tier 1s?

I dunno. Rather have Dabbler be something like "Pick a spell or supernatural/extraordinary ability. You can use that 3/day.". Which is closer to what I think the intended feel of the ability was (Or maybe I'm horribly, horribly wrong). Cap it so they can only pick spells equal to 1/2 their level and are considered 1/2 level for caster level, regardless of other effects that boost caster level. Let it use Supernatural/Ex abilities at 1/2.

Still could be insanely powerful. But less obviously broken.

they only get one at half level, the others are at 1/4 level, and 3rd level spells are definitely not game breaking at 20th level

[EdroGrimshell]

What Zetsu said.

[ArcturusV]

My bad, was looking at an older version of it.

[ArkenBrony]

what is its hit die?

[EdroGrimshell]

what is its hit die?

...I had had put that in just before I posted it and it errored, forgot to reput it in. It's supposed to be d8