Durkon's Prophecies

[sam79]

Yes, that... "difficulty" is probably what it's going to be all about...

I was actually using 'difficult' with the lesser-known meaning of "self-evidently impossible".

I guess I feel that the whole 'he's a vampire but he's good really' has been a bit over-done of late, in the same way as the CG-rebel Drow thing. Vampire Durkon is an elegant way of fulfilling prophesy, but it is more a character hijack than a development.

[Winter]

I was actually using 'difficult' with the lesser-known meaning of "self-evidently impossible".

Yes, I understood it. And I blatantly ignored your meaning (which was pretty clear from what you wrote before) because that would be a rather pointless plot for a Main Character.

You say that Durkon is getting evil and that is about it. The template leaves no choice at all: Evil. Period.

I say that Durkon is going to struggle with his condition (either to prevent becoming evil or to get back from being evil) and his relationship with Thor (to be understating a lot) is going to be a part of that.

[elros]

So far the Giant has shown that alignment is shaped by the overall scope of someone's decisions, and does not necessarily predict how someone will act in any given situation. For example, Tarquin is obviously evil but he loves Elan. That is demonstrated by him embracing slavery, killing innocents, and other horrible acts, but also by acts of kindness for his son. Tarquin also wants Elan to succeed, but only if that has dramatic effect which benefits him.

In a similar way, Haley does a lot of questionable things for a good character. She is selfish. She steals. She murdered Crystal in cold blood after Crystal helped her retrieve Roy. But overall she does not like to hurt innocent people.

The Giant summed up alignment beautifully in this strip. It's the decisions that the person makes that define alignment, not the other way around.

So will Durkon turn evil? It depends if vampires keep free will after they turn. If yes, Durkon will eventually become good because he wants to be. In story terms, I bet he finds a way resurrect himself if he does become a vampire, especially since the Giant made clear that was a possibility.

[hamishspence]

You say that Durkon is getting evil and that is about it. The template leaves no choice at all: Evil. Period.

I say that Durkon is going to struggle with his condition (either to prevent becoming evil or to get back from being evil) and his relationship with Thor (to be understating a lot) is going to be a part of that.

I tend to agree- not least because there's already D&D precedent.

[sam79]

So will Durkon turn evil? It depends if vampires keep free will after they turn. If yes, Durkon will eventually become good because he wants to be. In story terms, I bet he finds a way resurrect himself if he does become a vampire, especially since the Giant made clear that was a possibility.

You say that Durkon is getting evil and that is about it. The template leaves no choice at all: Evil. Period.

I say that Durkon is going to struggle with his condition (either to prevent becoming evil or to get back from being evil) and his relationship with Thor (to be understating a lot) is going to be a part of that.

I tend to agree- not least because there's already D&D precedent.

I say that the reason why I am scared for Durkon's fate in the current strip, and was similarly worried for Belkar a few days ago, is because I assume, (like Durkon does), that vamperism is abomination, in the sense that it destroys a person in an important way, and turns them into the thrall of someone else. That it is, in fact, a fate far worse than a simple and clean death. We could be wrong in this, of course, depending on the author's take on vamperism.

But the greater the degree of free will that a vamped Durkon could have, the less dramatic is the change in the first place. There is obviously a huge amount of space to play with between a) vampirism gives some alignment feedback in the same way a soul splice does (surely a too minimalist approach) and b) vampire=default Evil. The closer we are to b), the more dramatic the change, but the more it is a high-jacking rather than a development based on choice. And the closer we are to a), the more of Durkon's old character remains; but the dramatic nature of becoming Undead is likewise diminished. A hard balance to get right, I think, but I have confidence in our author.

[hamishspence]

There's also the issue of even if Durkula is mostly Durkon, he's now Malack's minion.

From Libris Mortis:

Usually, even creatures of free will come to resent being under the control of another, but this is not true of undead spawn. The act of their creation generates a bond of service and even affection for their creators. While this command can be briefly undermined through a cleric's turning or rebuking ability, undead always return to the service of their creators if possible.

Calling any portion of the bond between spawn and creator "affection" may be going too far, but spawn are definitely slavish in their attention to every detail of their creator's wishes. Spawn never hesitate to take any action commanded by their creators, even if that action leads to certain destruction.

[Feddlefew]

See, this is how I expected the reveal / moral event horizon to go- with Malack turning Durkon into a vampire against the later's wishes. Even if Malack decides to not bind Durkon to him (like that's going to happen), it's probably the most horrible thing that Malack could do on screen right now, even if Malack believes it is a benevolent act.

Of course, the mind rape-y "IF YOU WON'T BE FRIENDS WITH ME I WILL MAKE YOU LOVE ME" subtext that goes with it only makes things worse. I don't care how lonely you are, you can't force people to like you by mind-slaving them and not be evil.

Then I was expecting the orderly and efficient regime of destruction thing to come up, because Malack's going to need someone to help him run it...

[hamishspence]

See, this is how I expected the reveal / moral event horizon to go- with Malack turning Durkon into a vampire against the later's wishes. Even if Malack decides to not bind Durkon to him (like that's going to happen), it's probably the most horrible thing that Malack could do on screen right now, even if Malack believes it is a benevolent act.

Of course, the mind rape-y "IF YOU WON'T BE FRIENDS WITH ME I WILL MAKE YOU LOVE ME" subtext that goes with it only makes things worse. I don't care how lonely you are, you can't force people to like you by mind-slaving them and not be evil.

Libris Mortis does bring that up:

Some undead that retain corporeal bodies and can create spawn (most notably vampires) retain a strong tie to the associations of their life. As such, they may continue to nurture real affection for individuals still living. Tortured by the thought of losing contact with a friend or loved one, the undead may seek out that individual and, out of love, may attempt to turn its beloved into a spawn. If the attempt is successful, the loved one joins the ranks of the undead, but the bond between the two of the is now artificially enforced by the nature of the creation. The "loved one" now exists in a horrible position of compulsory affection.

[merget]

I doubt that Durkon will fulfill the prophecies by ravaging his homelands as a vampire, simply because it matches the obvious interpretations of both prophecies too well. I'm expecting more of a twist. And both prophecies can be interpreted in ways that make them mean almost the opposite of how they sound.

The Oracle said that Durkon would return home posthumously. That doesn't necessarily mean he'll be a corpse or vampire. He could return as a living, breathing dwarf, as long as he dies and gets resurrected before then. "Posthumous" means "after death"; it doesn't say that the individual stayed dead. Technically, everything Roy does these days is posthumous.

The other prophecy says, "When next he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all." If you read that right, it doesn't say who the death and destruction will be aimed at. Durkon could fulfill the prophecy by fighting Team Evil in the Dwarven Lands, bringing death to Redcloak and destruction to Xykon, with "for us all" referring to who benefits from that: "Durkon is risking his life for us all. He fights for us all. He brings death and destruction [to Team Evil] for us all."

Huh. Prophecy twists seem to work in your favor if the prophecy sounds depressing. Maybe it's the optimistic-sounding ones you've got to watch out for.

[TRH]

I dunno - the Death and Destruction thing still matches up way too neatly to Nergal's god portfolio to be a coincidence. The only way to not waste that connection is for Durkon to return home bringing the attention of Nergal with him - whether as prey or as Nergal's prophet remains to be seen.

[SaintRidley]

In a similar way, Haley does a lot of questionable things for a good character. She is selfish. She steals. She murdered Crystal in cold blood after Crystal helped her retrieve Roy. But overall she does not like to hurt innocent people.

You should buy Don't Split the Party. You might not question Haley killing Crystal so much after you do.

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Crystal repeatedly tries to kill Haley during said retrieval of Roy.

I dunno - the Death and Destruction thing still matches up way too neatly to Nergal's god portfolio to be a coincidence. The only way to not waste that connection is for Durkon to return home bringing the attention of Nergal with him - whether as prey or as Nergal's prophet remains to be seen.

Perhaps Durkon will become a vampire and return to the Dwarven lands...

Only to peacefully spread the good news of Nergal.

[TRH]

Really? Then why did no one mention that in the comic proper? Seems at least halfway relevant.

[SaintRidley]

Really? Then why did no one mention that in the comic proper? Seems at least halfway relevant.

The strips didn't go online due to pacing. Also, nobody but Haley was present during the attempts, and Haley already chose to lie about how she got the dagger. Rich also forgot, when he chose not to put them online, that they had the rationale for Haley's action, which didn't sit well with him, as it would lead to people interpreting Haley's actions in an unfavorable way.

[Kish]

I honestly do not get the criticism of Haley killing Crystal even without Don't Split the Party.

I mean, maybe I'm more ruthless than most people, but it's honestly not like Crystal has the tiniest, most remote indication of a redeeming feature in the online comic. That it doesn't spell out that, in fact, during the raid to retrieve Roy she

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was a thoroughgoing albatross hung around Haley's neck and tried her level best to be a lethal one

might be a reason not to yell "YAY, HALEY!" quite as loudly when Haley knifes her but I don't understand why it would be more of a reason to yell, "COLD-BLOODED MURDER!" instead than Haley's using lethal force against any of the hobgoblins she could have avoided killing.

[Feddlefew]

How many round do you think it'll take Durkon to wake up?

[Magnera]

If Malack turns Durkon into a vampire and then Durkon returns to the Dwarven Homeland and destroy's it. He will have fulfilled both the prophecy of Odin's high priest: bringing great doom when he returns home; and that of the Oracle of Sunken Vally: returning home posthumously.

But how likely is it that Rich would kill off Durkon?

I guess we know now...

[SaintRidley]

How many round do you think it'll take Durkon to wake up?

It may be done next round, it may be done by the SRD and the Order would bury Durkon at the pyramid.

Hard to say.

[Sir_Leorik]

How many round do you think it'll take Durkon to wake up?

Here's what the rules say:

Create Spawn (Su)
A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial.

If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.

There's no guarantee that the Giant will stick to the letter of the rules on this one. The Oracle's prophecy is ambiguous on this point; it could refer to Durkon's remains being brought back to Dwarven lands, or it could refer to Vampire Durkon coming home on his own. It might depend on whether Malack is driven off by the Order or whether he gets to escape with Durkon's body.

[Porthos]

Malack has already shown he can research spells.

Hasten Undeath, perhaps?