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    Default Partial Real-world in Fantasy Question

    In a slightly medieval society (like generic D&D or PF), a group of people find out a local business man (read: robber baron) is corrupt and break into his office to acquire evidence that proves his guilt. How long would the legal process take (barring him bribing his way out) arrest him (but not necessarily prosecute him yet)? Also in the mean time, would said business run be put to a halt?

    This happened recently in the game I'm running and one of my players pulled the argument that medieval society doesn't have laws against circumstantial evidence and I'm trying to think of reasonable way to deal with the repercussions of a significant non-main plot NPC getting arrested who wasn't suppose to.
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    Default Re: Partial Real-world in Fantasy Question

    I would say, the PCs would have to show up with pretty good proof to the local authority. Filing a report and letting the city guard make an investigation probably won't work.
    Also, credibility would likely be an important factor. If the PCs are total strangers and of an untrustworthy profession, but the NPC a known local with a great reputation, they would likely have to proof it without much doubt. Merely an accusation won't fly.
    If the NPC is already a thorn in the side of the constable and he's just waiting for any excuse to clamp down on him, they should be having a lot less trouble.

    Overall, personall connection would play a much greater role than legal procedures.
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    Default Re: Partial Real-world in Fantasy Question

    Quote Originally Posted by JerichoPenumbra View Post
    slightly medieval society ... robber baron
    Tut, tut. Terminology... "robber baron/knight" actually means a medieval baron/knight who robbed people.

    To the actual question:

    First, what's the jurisdiction? I'm assuming this isn't an actual nobleman, but a burgher-type or merchant. They're subject to the justice of where they live, generally - if the city is held by a noble, the noble's justice, or if it's a free city, whatever courts they have established.

    Generally, there was very little resemblance to modern justice systems in medieval times. A lord sat in judgment over his holdings and subjects.

    Once someone reviews their evidence, they're going to either order an arrest, look into it more, or do nothing. That probably wouldn't take too long. There's no complicated processes of discovery, picking out a jury, etc. Once someone's read the evidence and decided to arrest the man, he may get an advocate or may not. He'd probably plead his case in front of the lord, magistrate, or court, and they'd make a decision on guilt and punishment.

    I don't quite know what you're getting at with "circumstantial evidence." In the medieval justice system, accusations might or might not get you anywhere - it'd depend on the whim of the lord. Accusations with no real evidence were sometimes grounds for a judicial duel to determine guilt.

    So it takes however long you (playing the authorities) want, and the fate of the business is likewise up to you. It could be quick. They could drag their feet.

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    Default Re: Partial Real-world in Fantasy Question

    Quote Originally Posted by JerichoPenumbra View Post
    This happened recently in the game I'm running and one of my players pulled the argument that medieval society doesn't have laws against circumstantial evidence and I'm trying to think of reasonable way to deal with the repercussions of a significant non-main plot NPC getting arrested who wasn't suppose to.
    How medieval? Like 8th Century or 14th Century? Because the legal processes in intervening centuries are very different. For example during the 8th century in Sweden if you killed a dude his family was going to chase you down and that was justice. Sometimes you could get away with paying a fine.

    The thing to keep in mind is that in most places in Europe during the middle ages a police force didn't exist. Guards were the local lord's soldiers and the were the military and tax collectors. If some dude got ganked in town that was his problem. That doesn't mean Baron McDoesntCare wont use his guards to arrest somebody it just means that reporting to the guards isn't necessarily going to do anything.

    As for circumstantial evidence, torturing people into confessing in plenty of places during the middle ages so circumstantial evidence isn't really a problem. Also, just to be clear, aren't laws against circumstantial evidence , I think what you're going for is hearsay. Circumstantial evidence is actually incredibly useful and what most criminal cases are built on since hard physical evidence is often hard to come by most of the time. If you really think about it a convicting Al Capone was all circumstantial evidence given it was all documentary.

    In comparison to a modern court in any of the countries that use common law (which are the ones that derived from English courts) you'll find rules against hearsay. Those prevent a person from saying "Bob told me that Greg admitted to killing Joe" without Bob being present. The idea is that Greg can't actually confront Joe and question the veracity of a statement. There are some exceptions to that, but they tend to occur in exceptional circumstances (very young children or somebody that has died are the two most common ones I know of in Canada).

    Circumstantial evidence is exactly what you have, and would actually quite acceptable in any modern court. The courts generally don't care how evidence is gained, the exception being the state through the police who usually require warrants. As long as the guy that grabbed the evidence available to testify about what he grabbed, how and why then its all good.

    Of course the fact that the local lord could just have the guy for damn near any reason generally obviates the need for a formal court system. Of course that's part of what the Magna Carta was intended to address.
    Last edited by Beleriphon; 2013-03-05 at 02:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Partial Real-world in Fantasy Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    As for circumstantial evidence, torturing people into confessing in plenty of places during the middle ages so circumstantial evidence isn't really a problem.
    Actually, wasn't confession required for sentencing in many feudal legal systems? AFAIK, the effect was that you were tortured until you confessed to the charges (once the lord, judge, magistrate, or whoever was in charge) decided you were probably guilty.
    Last edited by Rhynn; 2013-03-05 at 02:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Partial Real-world in Fantasy Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhynn View Post
    ... "circumstantial evidence."...
    Circumstantial cause the players broke into the guy's office by melting the lock and stole his account books.
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    Default Re: Partial Real-world in Fantasy Question

    Quote Originally Posted by JerichoPenumbra View Post
    Circumstantial cause the players broke into the guy's office by melting the lock and stole his account books.
    That's not circumstantial evidence. That's just evidence, it sounds like to me. Circumstantial evidence is evidence that you have to infer is evidence ("Well, he was seen near the alley where the body was found an hour prior to the discovery").

    Of course, exactly what the account books say is a different matter - it may or may not support the inference that something criminal was done.

    I suppose if the case is dismissed, the PCs may be punished for burglary and theft and so on.

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    Default Re: Partial Real-world in Fantasy Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhynn View Post
    That's not circumstantial evidence. That's just evidence, it sounds like to me. Circumstantial evidence is evidence that you have to infer is evidence ("Well, he was seen near the alley where the body was found an hour prior to the discovery").

    Of course, exactly what the account books say is a different matter - it may or may not support the inference that something criminal was done.

    I suppose if the case is dismissed, the PCs may be punished for burglary and theft and so on.
    Good to know. Thanks. This has given me an idea of where to go from here.
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    Default Re: Partial Real-world in Fantasy Question

    Quote Originally Posted by JerichoPenumbra View Post
    This happened recently in the game I'm running and one of my players pulled the argument that medieval society doesn't have laws against circumstantial evidence and I'm trying to think of reasonable way to deal with the repercussions of a significant non-main plot NPC getting arrested who wasn't suppose to.

    Well. First off, most people think of 'laws' as 'American Laws' and worse 'American Laws they see on TV'. First off, American Laws are nothing like the fantasy you see on TV, and second, there is a whole world that does not use American Laws. As a matter of fact, each country has it's own, unique laws. Things that most Americans take for granted, like say the Bill of Rights, are not worldwide laws. And that goes for just about every other legal term too. And once you start talking about the rest of the world other then the 'West', you really, really start to see differences in laws.

    And when you get into the history of laws and law enforcement....well, it is nothing like it is today. Even the modern way things are done, like dusting for finger prints, is still new(that is law enforcement agency's having highly trained specialists that did this job). The first person to be charged with a crime by fingerprint evidence was in 1902. And nothing like an online fingerprint database existed until well into the 1980's.

    In short, in a game, you can have 'law' be whatever you need it to be. Plus...in a game you have magic. Lots of cleric spells can do wonders for laws.

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    Default Re: Partial Real-world in Fantasy Question

    Right, legal systems were often farcical or nonexistant. In some time periods, EVIDENCE was not allowed in a case, the only thing that was permissible was character witnesses. in others it was "Why are you bothering me with this? Work it out yourself." Then there were others. The american justice system is far more labyrinthine than anything you will see in medieval times and based on principles that are alien to the setting. Just come up with some way of resolving arguments that may or may not be fair and assume that they do something of the sort, if they even care. It may well be that getting the law involved is the 'nuclear option' because everyone involved is going to suffer.

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    Default Re: Partial Real-world in Fantasy Question

    That said, there was a Watch Detective PRC in one of the 3.0 splatbooks- I think Song & Silence. D&D might not exactly match medieval with respect to laws.
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    Default Re: Partial Real-world in Fantasy Question

    Quote Originally Posted by JerichoPenumbra View Post
    In a slightly medieval society (like generic D&D or PF), a group of people find out a local business man (read: robber baron) is corrupt and break into his office to acquire evidence that proves his guilt. How long would the legal process take (barring him bribing his way out) arrest him (but not necessarily prosecute him yet)? Also in the mean time, would said business run be put to a halt?
    1. Medieval society doesn't have fair or impartial trials. "Justice" is dispensed by the Lord (or King, or Baron, or w/e), and is more or less arbitrary. Their word is law.

    2. Authorities forget the charges because the Robber Baron paid them off long ago (and probably has dirt on them. The authorities may well be part of the corruption). They destroy and promptly forget about the evidence on his behalf. And trump up charges on the PCs (breaking and entering, slander, libel). The PCs are found guilty and forced to pay restitution and/or face jailtime.

    3. Robber Baron has a team of truly gifted and well-payed lawyers with the resources of a business empire behind him. And has the authorities payed off. He will face a modest fine at best.

    4. Business will continue unimpeded. Maybe someone will lead a tiny boycott of the companies goods if the violations are truly heinous and disturbing to the ignorant masses. Otherwise, business as usual. Modern companies face such trials all the time, and it matters little to their bottom line.

    5. If he needs to pay bail at all (unlikely, considering his gifted team of lawyers and bribes), it will be a trivial sum to himself. More likely, though, he will not be considered a risk to society and will walk free for the duration of his trial without paying the state a dime.

    6. Local leaders are hesitant to convict the Robber Baron, because he provides jobs to their constituents. If his money leaves, the locality will suffer.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2013-03-05 at 11:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Partial Real-world in Fantasy Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    2. Authorities forget the charges because the Robber Baron paid them off long ago (and probably has dirt on them. The authorities may well be part of the corruption). They destroy and promptly forget about the evidence on his behalf. And trump up charges on the PCs (breaking and entering, slander, libel). The PCs are found guilty and forced to pay restitution and/or face jailtime.

    (snip)

    6. Local leaders are hesitant to convict the Robber Baron, because he provides jobs to their constituents. If his money leaves, the locality will suffer.
    To me, these two points seem far more important than the actual legal system and how it works.

    You can break it down thusly. This guy is doing something criminal. Is he doing it solo? Are others involved? If so, are any of them too powerful to prosecute? Whoever the "Law" is in that setting, are any of them involved in this crime? Even if they aren't, is this crime benefiting them? Hindering them? Has no effect on them? Do the PCs have a reputation with the Law? Are they known heroes? Known troublemakers? Complete nobodies? Even if they accept the evidence, will the they understand it? Are they literate? Do they have accountants to make sense of these books?

    I could go on forever, but the point is, there are many other important considerations here that can make the whole legal system moot.

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