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2013-03-10, 07:23 AM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
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- Where I live.
This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
This isn't a Fix
SpoilerThis isn't a fix because I am sick and tired of fixes. I'm calling it a rewrite so that I can feel good about what I'm doing, rather than dirty inside.
Thank you for listening.
The Monk
Be like the man who is distributing the beating.
We cannot deny our origin; birds fly, flowers grow, and, my friend, I hurt people.
You know what a monk is! Do not deny it; they are the warriors who, with nothing but their own hands, stand against their foes. They are light on their feat, and strong in their nature.
They took the name "monk" after their cloistered nature, like unto the monks of the religious orders, though beyond that the two groups share no truly common traits.
MAKING A MONK
You run up to someone and punch them in the face. Hard. Often. Let them know how much you enjoy demolishing them without taking up a weapon.
Abilities: It would be best for you to look to Wisdom, as it is what most of the class is based off of; Intelligence gives you the knowledge of when not to fight, and Charisma gives you the drive to do it anyway.
Races: Monks appear most often among the arrogant elves and the presumptuous humans, though they are quite common among other races, as the training only takes your bare hands and common clothing.
Alignment: A monk may be of any alignment; their training is not some presumptuous doctrine, that it would restrict itself to those of some belief!
Starting Gold: 1d4x10(25 gp)
Starting Age: As Monk.
Class Skills
The Class Name's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (any) (Int) (all taken individually), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + int)x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + int
Hit Dice: d8
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Abundant Step
1st|+0|+2|+2|+2|Unarmed Fighter (1d8), Thousand Fists|-
2nd|+1|+3|+3|+3|Unorthodox Expertise, Evasion, School of Hard Knocks|-
3rd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Unarmed Fighter (1d8, +1), Abundant Step|10'
4th|+3|+4|+4|+4|Elegant Defense, School of Hard Knocks|10'
5th|+3|+4|+4|+4|Unarmed Fighter (2d8, +1), Iron Fists, Imperishable Body|10'
6th|+4|+5|+5|+5|School of Hard Knocks, Rough and Tumble|10'
7th|+5|+5|+5|+5|Unarmed Fighter (2d8, +2), Eyes of Clarity|20'
8th|+6/+1|+6|+6|+6|Improved Evasion, School of Hard Knocks|20'
9th|+6/+1|+6|+6|+6|Unarmed Fighter (3d8, +2), Righteous Fist|20'
10th|+7/+2|+7|+7|+7|School of Hard Knocks, Unlimited Activity|20'
11th|+8/+3|+7|+7|+7|Unarmed Fighter (3d8, +3), Imperishable Mind|30'
12th|+9/+4|+8|+8|+8|Flawless Defense, School of Hard Knocks|30'
13th|+9/+4|+8|+8|+8|Unarmed Fighter (4d8, +3)|30'
14th|+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|School of Hard Knocks, Wholeness of Body|30'
15th|+11/+6/+1|+9|+9|+9|Unarmed Fighter (4d8, +4), Imperishable Self|40'
16th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|School of Hard Knocks, Empty Step|40'
17th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|Unarmed Fighter (5d8, +4)|40'
18th|+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11|School of Hard Knocks, Splintering Fist|40'
19th|+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11|Unarmed Fighter (5d8, +5)|50'
20th|+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|School of Hard Knocks, Perfection of Form|50'[/table]
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Monk is proficient with all simple weapons, as well as any weapon that is a "special monk weapon"; they are not proficient in any form of armor.
Unarmed Fighter (Ex): A monk is beautiful to watch in a fight, a testament to the monstrous nature of combat.
At 1st level, a Monk gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat as a bonus feat, dealing damage with their Unarmed Strike as indicated on the above table.
In addition, they may add their Wisdom modifier to their attack rolls in place of their Strength modifier when they make attacks with their Unarmed Strike. At 5th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a Monk's unarmed strike deals an additional die of damage.
Additionally, a monk that is not currently experiencing a penalty to any of their skills due to armor or encumbrance adds their Wisdom modifier to their Armor Class as a Dodge bonus. This bonus increases by 1 at 3rd level and ever 4 levels thereafter.
Thousand Fists (Ex): A Monk strikes with a speed that would be utterly impossible to duplicate by a normal human being.
At 1st level, a Monk may make an attack with their Unarmed Strike as a Swift action.
Unorthodox Expertise (Ex): A Monk is able to do things that a lesser person would find to be fairly exceptional. I mean, if they really thought about it.
A Monk of at least 2nd level is constantly under the effects of the Feather Fall spell; in addition, the Monk weighs 25 lbs less for each class level that they have, to a minimum of 1 ounce, whenever it would be beneficial for them.
Finally, they may balance on any surface that can support their weight as if it were 2 inches wide, and do not take a -5 penalty on their Balance check for moving up to their speed.
Evasion (Ex): As the Rogue class feature.
School of Hard Knocks (Ex): A Monk has learned the most basic of lessons; get good, or wash out. They have taken this lesson to heart.
At 2nd level, and every even level thereafter, a Monk may choose to either gain Skill Mastery with one of their class skills (allowing them to take 10 on that skill, even under stressful circumstances), or to gain a single Skill Trick that they qualify for; Skill Tricks gained through this class feature don't count towards the maximum number of Skill Tricks that they may have.
Abundant Step (Ex): A Monk has learned the secret of surging forward really, really quickly.
A Monk of at least 3rd level may use a Swift action as part of a Move or Run action to increase their speed for that turn by the amount listed on the table above, and gains a bonus to Tumble and Balance checks during that movement equal to half their class level.
Alternatively, a Monk may instead use their Swift action to increase the distance of their next 5' step to equal the distance listed on the table above.
Elegant Defense (Ex): A Monk has learned how to elegantly and daintily slap aside the arrows and slings of their foes, as well as how to better defend their vitals from the blows of others.
A Monk of at least 4th level may, as an immediate action, cause a ranged attack to miss. They must be aware of the attack.
Alternatively, they may take an immediate action to gain Light Fortification until the beginning of their next round.
Iron Fists (Ex): A Monk's fists have become far harder than stone in your long travels. Far, far harder.
A Monk of at least 5th level ignores all hardness and damage reduction that would be bypassed by magical weapons or a specific material when making Unarmed Attacks. In addition, they Unarmed Strikes are treated as magical weapons when determining whether or not they would hit an Incorporeal opponent.
Imperishable Body (Ex): A Monk could sleep on broken glass without discomfort, and can walk through a plague-zone without dying. It is simply their nature.
A Monk of at least 5th level adds their class level to their character level when determining how many hit points they regain by resting, and may treat any time where they get at least 8 hours of sleep as 8 hours of restful sleep for the purpose of regaining hit points.
In addition, they may choose to make an additional save against a poison or a disease as an Immediate action. If they succeed, they are treated as if they had succeeded on the original save. They may only make 1 additional save against the effect, and must make the save within a number of rounds equal to their Wisdom modifier.
Finally, the Monk's flesh is immune to rot and decay; if they die or parts of their body are removed, those body parts are affected as if by an extraordinary Gentle Repose effect.
Rough and Tumble (Ex): A Monk is full of pep and ready for any sort of fight that you could throw at him.
A Monk of at least 6th level adds their Wisdom modifier to any Strength or Dexterity check that they make as an Insight bonus. In addition, they may use their Wisdom modifier in place of their Strength modifier when determining how much damage their Unarmed Strikes deal.
Finally, whenever a Monk uses or is targeted by a special combat maneuver, the bonus that their opponent gains from size is halved.
Eyes of Clarity (Ex): A Monk can see the invisible and can strike things that aren't even there; how can you hope to fight such a monster?
A Monk of at least 7th level gains Blind Fight as a bonus feat, and additionally halves the bonus to Hide checks that another creature gets for being invisible when they roll Spot checks. If they already have Blind Fight upon gaining this class feature, the benefits of the feat apply to all attacks instead of just melee attacks, and they reduce any miss chance from concealment above 20% down to 20%.
Finally, they may now use Elegant Defense against attacks that they are not aware of.
Improved Evasion (Ex): As the Rogue class feature.
Righteous Fist (Ex): A Monk may strike others just as they are being struck! It is a glorious method of combat!
A Monk of at least 9th level may use their Thousand Fists class feature as an Immediate action.
Unlimited Actions (Ex): A Monk has reflexes that make a normal mortal confused as to what is happening.
A Monk of at least 10th level gains an additional Immediate action each round, which may only be used to use their Abundant Step, Elegant Defense, Imperishable Body, or Thousand Fists class features.
Imperishable Mind (Ex): A Monk thinks in a proper manner, and will not be swayed by mere tricks!
A Monk of at least 11th level may use Imperishable Body to make saves against Mind-Affecting abilities, and furthermore may use Imperishable Body even if they are not consciously capable or willing to use the ability themselves, such as if they are dominated, or if they are asleep.
In addition, a Monk gains the benefit of the Mettle ability on any save made due to Imperishable Body.
Finally, they may use Imperishable Body against a single effect twice.
Flawless Defense (Ex): A Monk is not struck unless they wish to be.
A Monk of at least 12th level may apply their Elegant Defense class feature to melee attacks. Alternatively, if they choose to gain Light Fortification, they instead gain Heavy Fortification for the same duration.
Wholeness of Body (Ex): A Monk sees no reason to quit! Never, and even a day after that!
A Monk of at least 14th level gains DR X/- on any round where they use Elegant Defense to grant themselves Heavy Fortification, where X is equal to their Wisdom modifier.
In addition, whenever a Monk successfully uses Imperishable Body to negate an effect, they regain a number of hit points equal to half of their class level plus their Wisdom modifier.
Finally, as a Swift action, a Monk may regain a number of hit points equal to half their class level plus their Wisdom modifier.
Imperishable Self (Ex): A Monk may not be changed unless they will it.
A Monk of at least 15th level may use Imperishable Body to apply to Death effects and Polymorph effects; they may use Imperishable Body for 1 round after they die, despite the fact that dead creatures can't take actions.
In addition, a Monk gains the benefits of the Improved Mettle ability on any save made due to Imperishable Body.
Finally, they are utterly immune to any effect that would remove one of their limbs without their consent; for the purposes of this class feature, the head is a limb.
Empty Step (Ex): A Monk will not be stopped by a simple patch of clinging vines, nor even ropes that tether them! They can simply slip free, and move on!
Whenever a Monk of at least 16th level either increases their speed due to Abundant Step or increases the distance of a 5' step with the same class feature, that movement ignores difficult terrain, as well as any effect that would immobilize, entangle, or slow them; in addition, that movement instantly frees the Monk from any effect that was inflicting any of the above.
This does not allow the Monk to move through barriers that would completely block their movement.
In addition, the Monk may Take 15 on any skill check made as part of this movement.
Splintering Fist (Ex): A Monk is a lethal combatant, whose fists threaten life and limb!
Whenever a Monk of at least 18th level makes an attack due to Thousand Fists against a creature that they have successfully attacked at least once this round, they may choose to deal 4 Constitution damage instead of the base damage of their Unarmed Strike.
If the attack would be a critical hit, they may elect to deal their normal base damage plus 4 Constitution damage.
If a creature would be killed by one of the Monk's Unarmed Strikes, they may elect to make that creature's body too damaged to resurrect with any effect short of True Resurrection.
Perfection of Form (Ex): A Monk has become so potent that they are resistant to most everything. They don't like to brag though.
A Monk of at least 20th level no longer has a maximum age. In addition, whenever they use Elegant Defense, they may choose to gain Total Cover against the next detrimental effect that targets them.
Furthermore, their Unarmed Strike now bypasses all forms of damage reduction.
Finally, all penalties due to distance to their skill checks and attack rolls are halved.
PLAYING A MONK
You get in someone's face, and you beat them down. They cast some big "death spell" on you? Shake death off an continue punching them in the face.
Combat: Face, meet fist. FIST! MEET! FACE!.
Advancement: Advance however you feel like.
Resources: A Monk has a ton of resources, because they are at least a bit respected by those around them now.
CLASS NAME IN THE WORLD
"That's no Monk! I'm a Monk! Guys? Guys? Why are you taking him instead of me?"-Some "Monk"A Monk is a tough guy who takes **** from no-one. NO-ONE!
Daily Life: Wake up, wondering about what crazy things you got up to in the bar. Roll over, and notice with satisfaction that it's just one of your groupies. Then you have an awesome day.
Notables: There have been many monks, but none are so famous as Frank the Brawler (Monk 6), who came from a small town, running away from the angry mob whipped up by a Cleric who disapproved of his whoring ways.
Organizations: A Monk fits in anywhere where they want someone who can fight that still has some smarts.
NPC Reaction
It largely depends on how a Monk spends his time; if he spends it beating up malcontents and protecting a town, he is lauded; if he keeps beating people up for lunch money, he is frowned upon.
MONKS IN THE GAME
A Monk's main advantage is that he has a solid bank of swift and immediate action abilities. Honestly, if a ToB class wouldn't unbalance your campaign, the Monk will be fine.
Adaptation: The Monk is just a tough guy who fights smart. It's not that hard of a concept to twist to your purposes.
Encounters: They may meet them anywhere, ranging from one of the before-mentioned bars to the depths of dungeons or in forbidden temples.
Monk Feats
Spoiler
Kung-Fu Genius [Monk]
You focus far more on smarts than on experience; you do have to put up with people saying that your glasses look dorky, though.
Prerequisites: Must be taking your first level of Monk, Int 13
Benefit: The benefits of your Monk class features are based off of your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom modifier.
Hot-Blooded Sifu [Monk]
You got where you are more due to your chutzpah than your insight.
Prerequisites: Must be taking your first level of Monk, Cha 13
Benefit: The benefits of your Monk class features are based off of your Charisma modifier instead of your Wisdom modifier.
Monastic Weapon User [Monk]
You are particularly good with a specific weapon; you are so damn good, in fact, that you can do such crazy tricks with it...
Prerequisites: Unarmed Fighter (1d8)
Benefit: You are proficient in a single Light, One-Handed, or Ranged Martial weapon of your choice. In addition, any of your Monk class features that apply to your Unarmed Strike apply to this weapon as well, including the alteration to the damage dealt by your Unarmed Strikes due to Unarmed Fighter.
Special: Improvised Weapons count as a One-Handed Martial weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Ascetic Hunter [Monk]
You have combined your focus as a hunter with your drive as a brawler. Excellent.
Prerequisites: Favored Enemy, Unarmored Fighter (1d8/+1)
Benefit: Your levels in the Ranger and the Monk classes stack for the purpose of your Favored Enemy and Unarmored Fighter class features.
In addition, against your Favored Enemies, you may replace your Dodge bonus to Armor Class from Unarmored Fighter with your Wisdom bonus plus the relevant Favored Enemy bonus.
For example, if you were a Monk 3/Ranger 3 with a Wisdom of 18 and Favored Enemy (Dragons) +4, you would have a +8 Dodge bonus to AC against Dragons, instead of the +5 you would gain against a lesser enemy.
Mystical Body [General]
Following certain mystic traditions, you are capable of enchanting your body as if it were weapons and armor.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, 3rd level.
Benefit: Your Unarmed Strikes are treated as either Masterwork Manufactured Weapon (granting a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls) or natural weapons, whichever would be better for you at that particular moment.
At any time, you may retreat to a location significant to you, and spend time in practice in order to awaken the mystic power of your body. This requires a sacrifice of valuable items worth the difference between the market price of the magic item your wish to emulate, and the worth of all the valuable items that you have sacrificed so far.
This sacrifice does not have to be gold--you can sacrifice magic items or other goods worth the required amount, rather than selling your goods (at half value) to pay for the sacrifice. You must spend 1 day per 1,000 gp value you sacrifice. During this time, you must spend at least 8 hours each day in practice or meditation, not stopping to eat or rest.
You are limited in terms of how much you can "spend" on your Unarmed Strikes as given on the following table:
{table]Character Level|Maximum Wealth Invested
3rd|1350 gp
4th|2700 gp
5th|4500 gp
6th|6500 gp
7th|9500 gp
8th|13500 gp
9th|18000 gp
10th|24500 gp
11th|33000 gp
12th|44000 go
13th|55000 gp
14th|75000 gp
15th|100000 gp
16th|130000 gp
17th|170000 gp
18th|220000 gp
19th|290000 gp
20th|380000 gp[/table]
Supreme Initiative [General]
You are a twitchy guy, you know that?
Prerequisites: Improved Initiative, Character level 6th.
Benefit: You may act normally during a surprise round.
Monk ACFs
SpoilerAncestral Daisho
You are a master of a particular weapon, which was passed down from your ancestors to you.
Level: 1st
Modifies: Unarmed Fighter
Benefit: You gain Monastic Weapon User as a bonus feat instead of Improved Unarmed Strike; you may treat Monastic Weapon User as if it were Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of prerequisites.
Cloistered Viper
You are a danger to those around you. Mostly because you like poisoning people.
Levels: 1st, 5th, 10th, 11th, 15th
Modifies: Unlimited Activity
Replaces: Imperishable Body, Imperishable Mind, Imperishable Self
Benefits: At 1st level, you gain the Poison Use ability, and no longer risk accidentally poisoning yourself when you apply poison to a weapon.
At 5th level, you gain the ability to apply poison to a weapon as a Swift action. In addition, as a Swift action, you may suppress any resistance or immunity to poison that a creature has for 1 round; however, creatures who are immune to poison gain a +4 bonus on their save.
At 10th level, Unlimited Activity allows you to use your additional Swift action per round on either aspect of Cloistered Viper.
At 11th level, the bonus to saves against poison by creatures with immunity to poison is reduced to +2. In addition, the duration of the suppression increases to 1 minute.
At 15th level, creatures that are immune to poison no longer receive a bonus on their save. In addition, all saving throws against poison are improved to 10 + 1/2 your Monk level + your Wisdom modifier, if that would be higher than normal.
Decisive Strike
You favor a few certain blows over a crass "flurry of blows"
Levels: 1st, 9th, 18th
Replaces: Thousand Fists, Righteous Fist, Splintering Fist
Benefit: At 1st level, you may, as a Swift action, double the damage of an attack made as a Standard action that round.
At 9th level, this ability applies to the first attack you make against a given creature that round.
At 18th level, this ability applies to all attacks you make that round.
Iron Glare
People can't meet your eyes for very long.
Levels: 1st, 3rd, 7th
Replaces: Abundant Step
Benefits: Intimidate is a class skill for you; in addition, you may use your Wisdom score in place of your Charisma score when making an Intimidate check.
At 3rd level, you may use the Demoralize function of the Intimidate skill as a swift action, and may demoralize any creature within the distance given in the Abundant Step column on the table above. If you make demoralize as a Standard action, you may add half your Monk level as a competence bonus to your Intimidate check. The fear caused by your Intimidate checks does not stack with itself.
At 7th level, creatures that you demoralize are Frightened for one round and then Shaken for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier. If you demoralize a creature twice or more in one round, they are instead Panicked for one round and Frightened for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Mind over Matter
You are capable of bearing great loads as if they were nothing more than feathers.
Levels: 2nd, 3rd
Modifies: Abundant Step
Replaces: Unorthodox Expertise
Benefits: At 2nd level, subtract your Wisdom modifier from the penalties to skills that you take due to encumbrance (double your Wisdom modifier when reducing the penalty to Swim checks). In addition, you do not lose your Dexterity bonus to AC while lifting more than your heavy load.
At 3rd level, the ability to move 5' as a full-round action while lifting something that weighs more than your heavy load is considered a 5' step for the purposes of Abundant Step.
Stepping Between Raindrops
You are stealthy like woah. Seriously, duke, you are the stealthiest.
Levels: 2nd, 8th, 14th
Replaces: Evasion, Improved Evasion, Wholeness of Body
Benefits: At 2nd level, you may, as an Immediate action, become Invisible for one round. You may must wait 3 rounds before using this ability again.
At 8th level, you may grant yourself the benefits of the Blink spell for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier as a Swift action. You must wait 3 rounds after the effect ends before using this ability again.
At 14th level, while you are under the effects of Blink, you no longer suffer a miss chance against other creatures due to the effect.
Zen Meditant
You have some freaky mind powers. You got them from meditating. Or something...
Levels:1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, 20th
Replaces: School of Hard Knocks
Benefits: You gain 1 power point per level of Monk that you have, as well as the Psionic subtype. In addition, you have a manifester level equal to your Monk level.
In addition, at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter, you gain a single [Psionic] feat you qualify for as a bonus feat.
Finally, whenever you take levels in a prestige class that advances manifesting, you may choose to have any level that advances manifesting to advance your Monk abilities instead. Any prestige class that advances your Monk abilities advances your manifester level and your power points per level as well.
Monks and Prestige Classes
SpoilerFor the purposes of prerequisites, Thousand Fists counts as Flurry of Blows for all purposes.
In addition, if a prestige class advances "Monk Abilities", levels in that class are added to your Monk level to determine whether or not you have the Thousand Fists, Abundant Step, Elegant Defense, Imperishable Body, Imperishable Mind, Imperishable Soul, Righteous Fist and Unlimited Activity class features, or any alternate class features that replace the above class features.
Finally, prestige classes that advance Monk abilities are also added to your class level when calculating the benefits granted by Unarmed Fighter and Abundant Step.Last edited by Amechra; 2013-07-15 at 01:56 AM.
If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!
Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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2013-03-10, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)Dwarf in the Playground
- Join Date
- Apr 2005
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- Michigan
- Gender
Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
In terms of flavor:
I do not like this. This does not feel like a monk to me. I feel like this class should be named "drunk bar fighter/rock star" on the basis of such descriptions as:
"A Monk is a tough guy who takes **** from no-one. NO-ONE!
Daily Life: Wake up, wondering about what crazy things you got up to in the bar. Roll over, and notice with satisfaction that it's just one of your groupies. Then you have an awesome day.
Notables: There have been many monks, but none are so famous as Frank the Brawler (Monk 6), who came from a small town, running away from the angry mob whipped up by a Cleric who disapproved of his whoring ways.
Organizations: A Monk fits in anywhere where they want someone who can fight that still has some smarts."
I'm pretty sure the word "discipline" is repeated over and over in just about everything that ever even thought of using the word monk. I don't see that so much in your description of this class.
Mechanically speaking:
Cutting out the multiple attribute dependent portion is definitely a step in the right direction. Allowing your class to substitute wisdom for strength is a pretty solid, if generic, change. Full BAB progression is another standard and much needed upgrade for the class, as well as better damage scaling for unarmed strikes.
In terms of some of their other abilities, I'm not familiar enough with some of your terminology (what is a skill trick? How is it different from a regular skill? The difference between a swift and immediate action is what exactly?) to really judge exactly how useful some of it might be. Without comparing it to the standard 3.5 list of monk abilities, I will say that I find your variety to be rather lacking, but as far as monk abilities go in the standard rule book, they're pretty much all flavor anyway, so anything is better than nothing.
Final Opinion:
Interesting ideas, but I don't feel this accurately captures the flavor of the monk class, at least not monks as presented in 3.5. The buffs to their combat capabilities all seem to be very much in line with popular opinion as to what monks needed to be fixed (wisdom being valuable to offense, full BaB, better dice scaling).
Sorry for the harsh review, but you did say evaluate and critique honestly.
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2013-03-10, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- Where I live.
Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
Considering that one of the quintessential monk PrCs is called the "Drunken Master", and gains benefits by boozing (this is an official PrC, I kid you not)...
If you want discipline... if the Monk so wills it, he cannot become drunk. At all. His head might get a bit fuzzy, but he will shake it off. Later on, that ability to simply shake off petty inconveniences expands to mind control and death itself.
Swift/Immediate actions are in every book that isn't the Core 3; an Immediate action is a Swift action that can be taken during some other guy's turn.
Skill Tricks were introduced in Complete Scoundrel, and only appeared in that book (though there are some good homebrew ones.)
Basically, they are a 1/encounter ability you can get by spending 2 skill points on at level up, that you can have a number of equal to half your ECL.
Basically, in comparison to the monk, I dropped pretty much anything that couldn't be expressed as heroic composure/being good at punching, but the advantage here is that a level 1 monk, even if they had to flat out run to get to their opponent, can still get an attack in.
By 10th level, the Monk can essentially 1/round go "nope" to an attack and punch the guy who tried in the face. Or, by 11th level, they can use a Swift action to move 30' feet as a 5' step, make a full attack, and later that round slap aside a Disintegrate that an opposing wizard cast on them.
By 2nd level they can fight without seeing, fall from any height, and balance on things that should not bare their weight.
By 7th level, if they are assiduous in their training, they can walk on water, and see with their ears.
The only thing that disappoints me is that I can't think of any high level class features...If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you! Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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2013-03-10, 12:50 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
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- Missouri, USA
- Gender
Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
Definitely an Abundant Step in the right direction, though I can't tell if it's enough.
You can take an Immediate action outside of your turn, though it normally uses up your Swift action for your next turn. It pretty much let's you go "Objection!" and interrupt something that just started to happen while retconning your action to happen first. That's why Feather Fall is cast as an Immediate action. "You fall and take 5d6 dam-FEATHER FALL!" Originally Posted by Xeratos
Edit: I recommend this for ideas on Class Features. www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227023Last edited by General Patton; 2013-03-10 at 12:54 PM.
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
And with Elegant Defense, you literally get to yell "Objection" to anything short of melee attacks... until 12th level.
Do you think that I should include an ability that allows the Monk to heal themselves? By shear determination! I could just knead it into Imperishable Body, but that would kinda overload that option... Though it is a bit situational and reactive right now.
Also, if you are playing a human (or your DM allows flaws)... This is also a Swashbuckler rewrite (Look at Monastic Weapon User and Hot-Blooded Sifu.)If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you! Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
I definitely prefer this rewrite/fix compared to many others I have seen. I have serious concerns and questions though (in
rederr.. blue since you already used red):
Spoiler
Originally Posted by Amechra
I love what you did in a lot of areas. A very wuxia yet oddly realistic set of abilities. I would love to see some rewrites and I'll stay tuned to future developments. My notes were for your benefit. I don't really need rebuttals per se.Last edited by Tovec; 2013-03-11 at 11:13 AM.
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
Before I go through and address all your critiques, the line directly after each class ability name is fluff. I do this with every single one of my classes.
In this case, it is best to imagine them being spoken rather loudly by the kind of person who would actually say "Your Happy Dragon Greets The Dawn Strike is no match for my Monkey Crane Style Stance!"
Should I change the person of the ability fluff descriptions? After all, having it be "You" rather than a "A Monk", and having the actual abilities still be in 3rd person, is a pretty distinct separation, I would think.
EDIT: Initial comments about the Imperishable line of abilities.
The intent was the whole thing where the stalwart martial artist shakes off the negative effects of someone doing stuff to them. In the case of Imperishable Self, you have a round to try again to try to retroactively make your save against the death effect (so it only looks like they killed you.)
Also, the other bit of Imperishable Self, where they can't have limbs removed... the only effect in D&D that mechanically removes limbs is the Vorpal enhancement. They are still fundamentally stab-able, and you could easily use your Coup de Grace to slit their throat and such.
You just can't, you know, choose to say that you decapitate them.
The whole idea is that, in the search of bodily perfection (or whatever they are doing), their fists aren't the only part of their bodies that you could break bricks over, and stuff that dense and tough tends not to rot.Last edited by Amechra; 2013-03-11 at 11:41 AM.
If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you! Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
No offense intended to Tovec, but I don't think most of his critiques need to be addressed; they're either responding to flavor or to standard terms like "this bonus is halved," "special monk weapons," "as the Monk class feature," "use X as an immediate action," and so forth that have fairly well-defined meanings already and are no more obtuse than other homebrew on these boards. Originally Posted by Amechra
As for those critiques that do need to be addressed:
SpoilerHe's right that you should probably change "as part of a Move Action to increase their speed for that move action" to "as part of a Move or Run action to increase their speed for that turn;" a normal base speed increase also increases double move and run speed as a side effect, so it's a bit strange that Abundant Step doesn't do the same.Abundant Step (Ex): A Monk has learned the secret of surging forward really, really quickly.
A Monk of at least 3rd level may use a Swift action as part of a Move Action to increase their speed for that move action by the amount listed on the table above, and gains a bonus to tumble checks during that movement equal to half their class level.
So, I gather this ability was meant to be used to replace the monk's bonus speed. There is a small conflict that arises though. It relies on a swift action and as such it conflicts with the previous ability. Also, as written, they can only use abundant step as a swift action and not as a move, standard, or full, and therefore are slower when using other methods to move.
For comparison, the factotum gets Brains Over Brawn at 3rd level, and giving Wis to damage several levels after Wis to attack means you can't focus solely on Wis in character creation. I would allow the monk to use Wis instead of Str/Dex for checks as part of Unorthodox Expertise and Wis instead of Str for damage as part of Unarmed Fighter, so it's a bit of a smoother progression and relieves MAD at low levels.Rough and Tumble (Ex): A Monk is full of pep and ready for any sort of fight that you could throw at him.
A Monk of at least 6th level adds their Wisdom modifier to any Strength or Dexterity check that they make as an Insight bonus. In addition, they may use their Wisdom modifier in place of their Strength modifier when determining how much damage their Unarmed Strikes deal.
I'm surprised this takes 6 levels.
If the intention here is to let them make a melee attack at range, like the Bloodstorm Blade can, this should be phrased something like "A Monk of at least 7th level may make melee attacks with their Unarmed Strike at range, up to a maximum distance equal to the speed bonus from their Abundant Step class feature" to clarify that it is still treated as a melee attack for all intents and purposes.Ring the Golden Bell (Ex): A Monk can punch the air so hard that people across the room can still feel it; they are just that good.
A Monk of at least 7th level may make attacks with their Unarmed Strike as a ranged attack, with a range equal to the speed bonus from their Abundant Step class feature.
Cool, airbending.
Also, specify how this works. Ranged attack using melee or ranged bonuses. Ie. Dex or Wis? Is it still considered an unarmed attack?
If the intention is to make it an actual ranged attack, with Dex instead of Str and range increments and everything, this should be phrased something like "A Monk of at least 7th level may make attacks with their Unarmed Strike as a ranged attack. This is treated as a ranged attack in all respects, and has a range increment equal to the speed bonus from their Abundant Step class feature."
He's right, just upgrading from light to heavy fortification would have the same effect and is more elegant.Flawless Defense (Ex): A Monk is not struck unless they wish to be.
A Monk of at least 12th level may apply their Elegant Defense class feature to melee attacks. Alternatively, if they choose to gain Light Fortification, they instead are immune to Critical Hits and Precision damage until the beginning of their next round.
What is the difference between Light fortification and immunity to crits/precision? I mean one is better but that is all I can see. Why not just up the Light to Heavy?
I'd have to agree here; you haven't covered teleportation, in-combat healing, etherealness, or Quivering Palm among the traditional monk abilities, and if you can't think of anything else for the last few levels you have plenty of room to add them.As far as other things to put in post-15.. take a look at the monk and see if you can rewrite those to work better. Ethereal, teleportation, death effects, timeless body, outsider/DR and spell resistance, all treasure troves if done correctly.
My suggestions:- At 14th level, add "Wholeness of Body (Ex): You just can't keep a monk down. The monk gains DR 5/chaotic and, once per combat, may heal hit points equal to his Wis mod times 1/2 his class level as a swift action." The DR+healing fits in as an upgrade to Imperishable Body, and being in-combat only prevents spamming.
- At 16th level, add "Empty Step (Ex): And you thought the monk was fast before! When using his Abundant Step feature, the monk may choose to teleport instead of moving as long as he has line of sight and line of effectto his destination." The LoS/LoE restrictions make it closer to a flash step than a magical teleport, and it's just generally useful.
- At 18th level, add "Quivering Fist (Ex): Righteous Fist, now with 200% more righteousness! If the monk successfully strikes a single opponent twice in one round, as a swift action he may force his target to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Wis) or either die or become paralyzed for 1d4 minutes, at his option." (Or you can call it Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique, up to you.
) - At 20th level, add "Perfect Self (Ex): The monk is treated as an outsider whenever it would be beneficial to do so. Additionally, he may become ethereal at will, shifting back and forth between the Material and Ethereal Planes with a swift action each way."
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
Alright, thanks for looking at the wording; I was a bit sleep deprived when I wrote this (it's when I write my "best" homebrew.)
Ring the Golden Bell is supposed to let you just make a ranged attack (as stated, explicitly, in the ability itself) out to a range of your Abundant Step distance (again, as stated explicitly in the ability itself.)
Though I might make it have a range increment...
For your suggested abilities, I'm trying to avoid having any class feature that has uses a limited number of times per day (the 4 key active class features of the class are designed to be in conflict with each-other action-wise, as a balancing point, and so that it has a more tactical feel.)
So, I'll make the changes to the abilities (you have better wording, and Heavy Fortification was what I was looking for (the original enhancement has Heavy Fortification as 75%, iirc, that's why I was confused.))
But I'll probably throw Wholeness of Body as the ability to regain an amount of HP equal to your Wisdom modifier plus half your class level as a swift action, which you may use your additional swift action from Unlimited Activity with.
Empty Step will just add to Abundant Step (it's the logical next "step", as it were.)
Quivering Fist... I can't think of a way to add it in that would fit in with the action-economy shenanigans I'm thinking of. I'll have to "meditate" on it.
As for Perfect Self... I don't know, this version of the Monk doesn't have a logical step to Outsider status.
The reason why I'm approaching this as a rewrite and not a fix (beyond the reason given in the OP), is the fact that I'm not tied to any of the other Monk's abilities; I pull of the combat style in a different (and, in my opinion, far more elegant) manner.
I do have to ask, what is your over-all opinion?If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you! Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
I assumed as much, but because nonmagical ranged attacks use range increments instead of a flat range and the actual Ring the Golden Bell feat has different wording that implies it's not a normal ranged attack ("you may inflict unarmed strike damage with a successful ranged attack" and "This attack can deliver any effect your unarmed strike can normally deliver") I thought it best to clarify. Originally Posted by Amechra
That works. I know some people don't like at-will healing so I suggested a per-combat use, but Wis + level/2 isn't problematic at all.But I'll probably throw Wholeness of Body as the ability to regain an amount of HP equal to your Wisdom modifier plus half your class level as a swift action, which you may use your additional swift action from Unlimited Activity with.
It requires a swift action like the other abilities, so you still have to make the choice between more attacks, more speed, or better defense; if someone lets this monk get up close to them (doesn't need Abundant Step) and didn't successfully attack them last round (doesn't need Elegant Defense or Imperishable Body), they're already in for a world of hurt, it's just a question of whether the monk thinks he can already hit them twice (Quivering Fist) or wants another chance to hit (Thousand Fists). But of course it's all up to you.Quivering Fist... I can't think of a way to add it in that would fit in with the action-economy shenanigans I'm thinking of. I'll have to "meditate" on it.
Granted; they were just suggestions of how to adept the standard monk high-level abilities if you can't think of anything else.The reason why I'm approaching this as a rewrite and not a fix (beyond the reason given in the OP), is the fact that I'm not tied to any of the other Monk's abilities; I pull of the combat style in a different (and, in my opinion, far more elegant) manner.
Aside from a few small wording tweaks as mentioned, I really like it. It manages to do everything the core monk does more elegantly, and does what the monk is supposed to do (kill low-/mid-op casters, be a skirmisher, be hard to kill) much more effectively.I do have to ask, what is your over-all opinion?
The only real issue is the lack of customizability within the class, but I figure keeping things simple is a benefit and the monk already does what it needs to do so it's not a problem you need to worry about.Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
Alright, I fixed some things up (though I did not move Wis to damage and to certain checks down; the fact that they can't be entirely Wisdom SAD is intentional.)
Also, a 20th level Monk may now run on spiderwebs upside down, effortlessly say nope to single target effects (can't target someone with Total Cover, you know), can heal themselves a smidge, and if you are foolish enough to let themstand next to yoube within a single movement distance, they can deal 10 Con damage to you a round. Ouch.
I was actually specifically avoiding having a unique customization system for this class, mainly because I can't be bothered, and also because it makes this thing dead simple. The only real choices you have when building your monk are what Skill Tricks you want. Also, if you want to be distinct from another Monk, you can multiclass; that's what that option is for.
I also just noticed how nicely this class works with E6; you get all your bread and butter choices by level 6, which is also the point right before you get your first really unbelievable class feature (punching people on the other side of the room.)
Also, a dip of 2 levels of Monk is rather nice (it's got an excellent chassis, as well as nice class features), but it doesn't personally look like it's something that every melee character ever will take.If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you! Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
Excellent job tying the new features into the existing ones; I like it. Originally Posted by Amechra
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
Thanks.
Does anyone else have any commentary? Or should I call this one done?If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you! Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
Ok, I don't have a lot of spare time right now, so I'll make it short.
Too many dice rolls on a regular basis slow down the game.
Monks need teleportation. It's one of the few good tricks the core class offers.
I like Iron Fists. Clean & simple.
The one thing that's apparently absent is a decent amount of features that bring new options to the gaming table.
I don't like "Unarmed Fighter" appearing on the table 10 times for the same reason I don't like SA appearing 10 times on the Rogue's table. It's the same friggin feature and it takes the place of real features.Last edited by nonsi; 2013-03-12 at 12:34 PM.
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
It's a good thing this monk doesn't do that, then. Originally Posted by nonsi
Even with two Thousand Fists attacks per round, it's making fewer attacks (and rolling fewer damage dice) than a TWF rogue of comparable level.
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
I was trying to stay away from the overtly supernatural stuff, kind of as a challenge to myself.
I'll wait until you have more time before I start glaring at bits of the class to get them back in submission.
However, on the subject of new options... I'd like you to think of how much a swift action attack brings to the table; it lets you actually move and still get off your attacks that are most likely to hit. It gets better when you have immediate action attacks, since those can be used for a bunch of different uses.
Abundant Step I agree brings little to the table.
Elegant Defense is a pretty decent defensive buff that helps you frontline even though you have a d8 for HD; at later levels, it essentially becomes a "soft" counter to a great deal of things. After all, they are deflecting rays by 4th level, and by 12th level, a Monk on the defensive can block most direct assaults that don't just target them.
Imperishable Body is the standard "recovery" ability that the Monk gets; I probably should let them immediately stabilize with it at earlier levels. It is meant as an "after the fact" defense.
Most of the strategy in the class comes from the interplay of the 4 swift action features.
Unlike a lot of homebrew on these boards, I'm not assuming that the Monk isn't going to be grabbing treasure; everyone's a Christmas tree in D&D. Though I think it should be noted that Necklaces of Natural Attacks need to be cheaper...
Honestly, they don't need to have debuffing attacks and such as part of the core class; I'm still writing feats for the class, and I really think that base classes should be reserved for your bread and butter, when you get down to it.If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you! Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
Hey, a monk rewrite. Let's see.
Chasis:
Full BAB, all good saves, cleric HP, 4+int skills w/ a good skill list, and Monk proficiencies. So far, we've traded 2 skill points for full bab, though I think it's fair considdering monks should have always had full bab to begin with.
Unarmed Fighter (Ex): Two changes here - you've tied the monk's wisdom-to-AC to an armor check penalty - a fair move, since not having said penalty is a reasonable approximation of not being encumbered by armor. I might even go so far as to state that such a penalty be straight out subtracted from the bonus - rather than an all-or-nothing loss. And as monks advance, they gain extra damage dice. Mildly abuseable since you get extra attacks, but not unreasonable given the progression and compared to other classes.
Thousand Fists (Ex): It's a good thing getting extra swift actions is so hard, or else this would be very abuseable. As it is, an extra attack per round (becuase if you're a monk of this flavor, you're going to be saving that swift action for just this) is pretty hefty, especially since it basically stacks with everything - including two-weapon fighting, haste, natural attacks, etc. Powerful, and perhaps too much so at first level, as it makes one level dips in this class awesome for everybody (just this, full BAB and all good saves would be enough for any melee fighter in existence). Balanced by it having to be a unarmed strike. I'd strongly recommend moving this to 2nd level. Swap it with School of Hard Knocks.
Unorthodox Expertise (Ex): Balancing Lorecall, Feather Fall, and Listening Lorecall - two 2nd level spells and a 1st level spell, as constant effects. And the 2nd level spells advance as you level. This is a bit too much, especially for 2nd level. Instead, just make it Feather Fall. Move Balancing Lorecall up to 4th level and change Listening Lorecall into straight up Blindsense 30' at 6th level and it's balanced.
Evasion (Ex): No problems.
School of Hard Knocks (Ex): Nice. Given the decrease in skill points, this keeps the monk as a relative skill-monkey-esque class. As previously suggested, you might move this down to 1st level in exchange for Thousand Fists not be an automatic 1-level-dip.
Abundant Step (Ex): The first part is great. Changing the distance you can move with your 5' step is completely broken for one reason: Skirmish. Considdering that there are Monk/Scout cross-class feats that continue to improve skirmish with monk levels (I don't feel like re-reading to see if it'll still work, but any GM that allows homebrew would easily accept this feat mod), I'm going to call this a bad idea. This basically says: Dip Scout & spend a feat to allow you to trade 1 attack for +nd6 on your iterative attack. Hmm...come to that, it's not all that broken after all.
Elegant Defense (Ex): So they can stop magic missiles (at least one), scorching rays, disintegrates, beholder eyebeams.... You may want to specify that they can stop missile weapons and thrown weapons instead of 'ranged attacks'.
Iron Fists (Ex): Umm, no. How about they gain the Versatile enhancement on their fists? This allows them to gain a single property for the purposes of overcoming DR. Straight up saying that they can bypass DR (like, say, DR/Epic) is broken.
Imperishable Body (Ex): Extra natural healing is fine, automatic gentle repose is kind of icky but fine, being able to make unlimited saves against poison/disease is not fine. You may want to re-word this.
Rough and Tumble (Ex): Sound fair.
Ring the Golden Bell (Ex): Make it a standard action, otherwise this has simply given the monk reach equal to their abundant step, which is patently ridiculous.
Improved Evasion (Ex): Fine
Righteous Fist (Ex): Immediate actions are a lot easier to gain than swift actions, and this is in no way better than an AoO, except you can basically do it without being provoked. Trash this completely.
Unlimited Actions (Ex): Make it a swift action. Those are harder to come by.
Imperishable Mind (Ex): Fix imperishable body and this is fine.
Flawless Defense (Ex): This is not quite so bad - at least melee attacks is more defined in D&D than 'ranged attacks'. But you may want to specify that it doesn't work against touch attacks.
Wholeness of Body (Ex): DR X/- of half class level + wis mod? In exchange for an immediate action (which, I continue to note, you can get more of). That's a bit too much, especially since this is in addition to another effect. Make it just wis mod. And an equal amount of fast healing to boot (in exchange for 1 attack, basically) - put a uses/day limit on that healing ability, or give them a limited healing pool, or reduce the healing to 1/4 Class Level (no wis mod) or something.
Imperishable Self (Ex): Fix imperishable body and this is fine. Also, defining the head as a limb: LOL.
Empty Step (Ex): As a 16th level ability, this is not unreasonable.
Splintering Fist (Ex): Make it 1d6 con damage, and looks good. Straight out 5 con damage/round is over the top even at this level. Since you can do it at least 2x/round, at-will, you need to scale back or the monk is going to kill virtually anything you throw at them in 4 rounds or less, by themselves (I've never seen a non-epic monster with more than 40 con).
Perfection of Form (Ex): As a capstone, this is pretty good. Perhaps a bit over the top (wings of cover at will!) but given limited actions on the monk's part, not completely unreasonable.
Overall looks very nice. My only real concern is: Kill Righteous Fist. Kill it with fire. Perhaps replace it with blindsight or the ability to ignore 5% miss chance per level, but immediate actions are too easy to optimize for.
Hope that helps.Homebrew:
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
I will respond class feature by class feature:
Thousand Fists: I'm going to leave this at 1st level, because moving it a single level back would not impede dipping in the least, and it is your key low level trick.
I could equally say that everyone should go Barbarian, since you can easily, with one feat, get an additional attack, +6 to Strength, and +8 to Constitution, as well as Pounce, for a single level.
The only ways to generate more Swift actions that I can think of off the top of my head are a few obscure 1/day magic items, and Ruby Knight Windicator, which has better things than single melee attacks to be doing with its swift actions (like, I don't know, casting any one of their many spells?)
Unorthodox Expertise: Yes, it seems powerful, however...
Note that, at that level, you get a small boost to your senses, and you can balance on a few things extra things for a little while. You don't get large bonuses to those skills, so you would have to optimize for it yourself.
The balance of mundane class features to spell levels is not equivalent; I can think of a few higher level spells that would make decent lower level continual effects on a mundane character.
Abundant Step: I see you've noticed the fact that the class was designed to have action interference between its class features; and I would hardly say that Scouts being able to full-attack with skirmish damage is broken; it is trivial to get a 10' step with just a skill check.
Elegant Defense: They can block a single ranged attack. A ranged attack is just as well defined as a melee attack. It requires that the effect has an attack roll, and each attack roll is considered a different attack by definition.
So, no, you could not block magic missiles. You could block a disintegrate, though. Which is intended. Because the class feature is intended to be useful throughout your career.
Iron Fists Um, yes? ToB users were bypassing DR/Epic 2 levels ago, with the swiss-army jackhammer called Mountain Hammer. It is hardly inappropriate at the level.
Imperishable Body: I probably should put a limit on uses, shouldn't I? I'm thinking only up to, say, 3 rounds after the effect is applied to you. Sound fair?
Ring the Golden Bell: You make a ranged attack. With your Unarmed Strike. With a range increment equal to your Abundant Step distance. There are many things you can't do with a ranged attack that you can with a melee attack.
Flawless Defense: Is entirely intended to work against touch attacks. Just like Elegant Defense is intended to work against rays.
Because, quite frankly, magic getting a free ride is getting old. I'd pull out the old "mundane counterspell" picture, but I've forgotten the link.
You and Immediate Actions: I'm sorry, but where are you getting your immediate actions from? I'm not aware of any effects that generate extra immediate actions.
So where are you getting yours? This is a legitimate question; I am curious how you are getting more of an action that, as far as I can tell, you can only have one of (outside of possibly divine ranks. And, no, Stance of Alacrity does not work that way.)
Otherwise, I'd be hearing a lot more about double - Celerities.
Wholeness of Body: I find it kind of funny that you think that ~14 HP regained or DR 14/- are overpowered at levels where pretty much everything has started breaking the 100s in damage.
Also, there has been unlimited out of combat healing since level... 7 at the latest, if your party has a Binder, or 1st if someone is playing a Dread Necromancer and every one takes Tomb Tainted Soul.
Splintering Fist: This is 18th level; at this point, most enemies that you are fighting are either immune to the trick or would be very hard to land your fist on. So a sure bet is a good way to go. This is the point where you get shenanigans like getting two full attacks as a full-round action, summoning forth god-beings, and altering the laws of physics on a whim; 5 Con damage is not unreasonable.Last edited by Amechra; 2013-03-12 at 03:36 PM.
If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you! Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
I like for things to be balanced against existing material when possible. Everyone knows that a 1-level dip in barbarian with several ACFs is pure cheese. Designing a homebrew class to be equivalent to that just means no GM ever lets their players use it, unless it's specifically a cheese game.Thousand Fists: I'm going to leave this at 1st level, because moving it a single level back would not impede dipping in the least, and it is your key low level trick.
I could equally say that everyone should go Barbarian, since you can easily, with one feat, get an additional attack, +6 to Strength, and +8 to Constitution, as well as Pounce, for a single level.
The only ways to generate more Swift actions that I can think of off the top of my head are a few obscure 1/day magic items, and Ruby Knight Windicator, which has better things than single melee attacks to be doing with its swift actions (like, I don't know, casting any one of their many spells?)
I'll grant that this class is probably only tier 4 as written, and there's nothing wrong with this class feature - it's just something that I think shouldn't be available to anyone from a 1-level dip. At least the Monk equivalent specifies you can't use armor while using it, meaning that the majority of builds ignore flurry of blows as basically useless. Thousand Fists, however, is basically Snap Kick as a swift action, at the cost of a (honestly loaded with goodies already) 1-level dip instead of a feat. If you're not making a spellcaster, yes, dipping this class would be a no-brainer.
Also, there's a huge difference between 1-level dips and 2-level dips. With a 1-level dip, you can be a rogue who took that level of monk and is basically missing out on nothing important, or a wizard who's doing the unarmed-gish thing and getting spells at the same time as a sorceror. The 2-level dip means that if you're not devoting a good portion of your build towards what you've side-tracked to get, then you're a spell level or a d6 of damage or whatever else behind for what's at best a side benefit.
As for it being your 'key low level trick'...2nd level is still low level. Really, unarmed combat should be your 'key low-level trick'.
The reason I make a big deal out of this is because Thousand fists basically means: After a full attack, hit one more time, always. Charge and hit twice without pounce. Double move and still take a swing. Make the Spring Attack feat even MORE worthless, because you can do that but better. All of this for 1 level in a class that gives 3 good saves with no loss of BAB, grants a bonus feat on the side, and adds a stat to AC while wearing light armor. I considder overloading 1st level like this to be a major sin of many homebrewers. But hey, that's just my opinion.
You get it at 2nd level. At 2nd level you have skills with 5 ranks. Which means when you get it, you immediately get blindsense 30' and a climb speed with a random/limited duration but which can be used at will.Unorthodox Expertise: Yes, it seems powerful, however...
Note that, at that level, you get a small boost to your senses, and you can balance on a few things extra things for a little while. You don't get large bonuses to those skills, so you would have to optimize for it yourself.
The balance of mundane class features to spell levels is not equivalent; I can think of a few higher level spells that would make decent lower level continual effects on a mundane character.
Then, at 7th level, you gain blindsight and water walking. And these additional abilities are completely independent of gaining more class levels in your monk class.
One or the other of thost would be reasonable as a 2nd level class feature. But you're giving both, plus unlimited feather fall. I'm just saying, break it up and space out the abilities more. Otherwise, your class is a better 2-level-dip monk.
I don't know that trick. Is there a skill trick that give you a 10' step?Abundant Step: I see you've noticed the fact that the class was designed to have action interference between its class features; and I would hardly say that Scouts being able to full-attack with skirmish damage is broken; it is trivial to get a 10' step with just a skill check.
And I'm not disagreeing that full attacking with skirmish is far from broken. Actually, I was more pointing out something that might have been an unintended consequence. If I'd been worrying about the power of this ability, I'd have been pointing out that it's basically a lesser version of pounce - you can use a swift action in the same round as a full attack, thereby moving your abundant step to get reach and then your iterative attacks to beat on them.
I'm curious, though. Would this swift movement provoke AoOs?
I cannot think of any melee attacks that do not require an attack roll of some kind. I can think of severl ranged attacks, including breath weapons and area affect spells, which do not. Are you really saying that a fireball is not a ranged attack? I just wanted a clarification on wording here, not for you to nerf the power. Also, if you're going to make the monk that strong against spellcasting and other abilities that are generally considdered 'dodge proof', then I suggest you change your fluff a bit to reflect it.Elegant Defense: They can block a single ranged attack. A ranged attack is just as well defined as a melee attack. It requires that the effect has an attack roll, and each attack roll is considered a different attack by definition.
So, no, you could not block magic missiles. You could block a disintegrate, though. Which is intended. Because the class feature is intended to be useful throughout your career.
Ugh, I keep forgetting about that. However, the difference here is that you're making this an inherent ability for the monk, rather than something that's activated or used up. Mountain hammer is a standard action that cannot be used on every attack (every other attack if you're a warblade, granted). This is simply: I bypass this whole set of rules that reduce my damage, and ignore them from level 5 onwards.Iron Fists Um, yes? ToB users were bypassing DR/Epic 2 levels ago, with the swiss-army jackhammer called Mountain Hammer. It is hardly inappropriate at the level.
I was thinking more along the lines of a single re-roll for each affect. That's perfectly in line with existing mechanics. Anything more than that and you might as well grant immunities. With all-good saves, con, wis & dex as power stats and multiple re-rolls, the numbers work out that any of these affects that would stick to you EVER would wipe out the rest of your party in one shot. Also, remembering to roll those additional saves is just annoying if you have to remember to do it again after your next turn.Imperishable Body: I probably should put a limit on uses, shouldn't I? I'm thinking only up to, say, 3 rounds after the effect is applied to you. Sound fair?
Again, the difference here is that it's an ability that you give without tradeoff. You no longer have to use your swift action to pounce at your abundant step range. You can simply beat on anything within 30'+ of you with a full attack + extras from your swift action(s). Once you get to this point, you're not a melee fighter anymore - you're a wizard who casts 'fist' repeatedly at his enemies. It just doesn't feel like a monk anymore.Ring the Golden Bell: You make a ranged attack. With your Unarmed Strike. With a range increment equal to your Abundant Step distance. There are many things you can't do with a ranged attack that you can with a melee attack.
Again, if this is as intended, then fine. But have the fluff be more spectacular.Flawless Defense: Is entirely intended to work against touch attacks. Just like Elegant Defense is intended to work against rays.
Because, quite frankly, magic getting a free ride is getting old. I'd pull out the old "mundane counterspell" picture, but I've forgotten the link.
I was apparently confusing immediate actions with AoOs. I went back and checked, and you can still get ridiculous numbers of AoOs without having more than one immediate action. So ignore those comments. However, I'll point out that VERY FEW things offer the ability to affect things outside of your turn. There's good reason for this - doing so is annoying to everyone else at the table. At least when you do so constantly. Being able to do it once in a while is a good way to show off how awesome you are. Maybe a per-day limit?You and Immediate Actions: I'm sorry, but where are you getting your immediate actions from? I'm not aware of any effects that generate extra immediate actions.
So where are you getting yours? This is a legitimate question; I am curious how you are getting more of an action that, as far as I can tell, you can only have one of (outside of possibly divine ranks. And, no, Stance of Alacrity does not work that way.)
Otherwise, I'd be hearing a lot more about double - Celerities.
And I find it amusing that you think ~30HP/round regen requiring you to expend your TWO swift actions (thereby still not preventing you from from full-attacking) is comparable to 1d6+7 requiring your caster to expend their standard action while at touch range to the melee attacker. Alternately, being 20th level and trading your extra swift action for DR 20/- whenever you feel like it. Seriously. Take a look at the numbers again.Wholeness of Body: I find it kind of funny that you think that ~14 HP regained or DR 14/- are overpowered at levels where pretty much everything has started breaking the 100s in damage.
Also, there has been unlimited out of combat healing since level... 7 at the latest, if your party has a Binder, or 1st if someone is playing a Dread Necromancer and every one takes Tomb Tainted Soul.
You've got a point. It is on par with 9th level maneuvers. The difference, once again, is that those 9th level maneuvers are expendable resources - you need to devote effort into using them each time, you cannot use them twice in the same round, every round, forever.Splintering Fist: This is 18th level; at this point, most enemies that you are fighting are either immune to the trick or would be very hard to land your fist on. So a sure bet is a good way to go. This is the point where you get shenanigans like getting two full attacks as a full-round action, summoning forth god-beings, and altering the laws of physics on a whim; 5 Con damage is not unreasonable.
I'm not trying to tear appart this class. I just want you to considder all of the consequences of what you've got. With all the stuff this monk does, it's still only tier 4, but it's a ridiculously strong tier 4, beyond the best optimization efforts of a hellfire warlock with legacy weapon cheese. A few simple tweaks, and it can be brought in line with the other tier 4 base classes (which are all quite playable and fun, even if I prefer tier 3).
Hope that helps.Homebrew:
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
1. ... I apparently only ever play "cheese" games then, since I've never been in a game where you can't take a dip in Barbarian.
I do find merit in your worries about the ultra constant +attack that you get. I'll probably drop the BAB by a step to compensate; I was also planning on dropping it to 2 good saves, due to Imperishable Body and company.
2. I'm probably going to overhaul Unorthodox Expertise, mainly because the spells that it references are splatbook spells, but also because I'd forgotten how large the 5 rank benefits are.
3. As for 10' movement... Person Man says it better in his little guides here and here. And it was an intended consequence; you are supposed to be movin' and skirmishin'.
Also, 5' steps don't provoke unless someone has an ability that make them provoke. I just noticed that I need to tweak that ability since, as written, you can spend a swift action now, and then take a 50' 5' step in an hour if you want to.
4. By game rules, anything that doesn't incorporate an attack roll isn't an attack. This guy could be blown up by a fireball just as easily as anyone else with a good reflex save.
5. I'll probably adjust Iron Fists; I personally use these rules (scroll to the last post) for DR and Energy Resistance, so...
6. I'll probably end up limiting Imperishable Body to one extra save, with another extra one once you hit Imperishable Self.
7. I might modify Ring the Golden Bell to be once a round. I do find the image of just screaming "I CAST FIST" every time you use it, though.
8. As for fluff... you make your own fluff. You know what a perfectly good representation of how you negate their attack? Stepping out of the way.
9. You get an immediate action attack for two reasons; it either lets you disrupt a caster nearby who's casting defensively, or punch someone who just attacked you in the face. It doesn't disrupt actions that wouldn't already get disrupted by you getting hit.
Really, I don't think people will mind; in most games I'm in, unless someone specifically is trying to steal the spotlight, the party supports their friends being the big damn hero. I'd change it if it were some big ultra super move, but it's just a normal attack, so it shouldn't be any worse than if you, say, are playing an AoO build.
10. As to your Wholeness of Body points... remember that the rounds where you are using both of your swift/immediate actions on healing are rounds where you aren't using them to have better movement or extra attacks. This becomes even more the case if I drop their BAB to 3/4ths level.
I mean, you get the choice between either being faster in getting out of the place that is hurting you, or attacking the problem, and you are instead standing there where you can continue to get hit, and heal less than 40 HP (which they are undoubtedly dealing more than at those levels.) It is a trade-off which, at that point in the least, you are probably only going to be doing when you are either at the point of dying, or if you are outside of battle, in which case the amount of HP that you regain doesn't matter, since any amount of unlimited out of combat healing will pretty much fill you back up in a few minutes.
11. To deal that 10 Con damage, you have to make, and more importantly, hit with three attacks. This is after you've been in this class for 18 levels and, if you notice, this class doesn't give bonuses to your attack rolls.
Then factoring in the facts of what immunities high level monsters get; most are either immune to ability damage, or would be able to take the 10 Con damage and then retaliate in a way that would flatten the monk.
Remember that most high level fights only last for around 3 round on average; that 5 Con damage was intended to be one of those "if I haven't killed you by the end of 3 rounds, something is very wrong."
I might drop it by a bit (probably to 4 Con damage), if only because, looking back, 10 Con damage is a bit much.
12. No worries about tearing it to pieces; criticism is the only way that it can be made into a good class.
I do disagree with your "more powerful than an optimized Hellfire Warlock"; that particular combination can be throwing out 24d6 + 2 negative levels per attack, and could full attack for an average 252 damage and 6 negative levels as a full attack, which are made as touch attacks and which can be easily increased by another 15d6 damage on that full attack. The negative levels are also another 30 damage, along with -6 to pretty much everything.
If you put this Monk in a "most dangerous full-attacker" competition with the Hellfire Warlock, the Warlock is going to beat them to a pulp, figuratively.If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you! Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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2013-03-13, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
Originally Posted by Amechra
That's not just a level of Barbarian. That's a level of barbarian with at least 2 ACFs and a broken feat. Big differece in cheese levels. If you've never played with a GM who'd say no to that character, I'd love to meet some of your GMs. Originally Posted by Amechra;
[QUOTE]I do find merit in your worries about the ultra constant +attack that you get. I'll probably drop the BAB by a step to compensate; I was also planning on dropping it to 2 good saves, due to Imperishable Body and company.[QUOTE]
Fair.
I figured. You may want to add some reminder text to that effect, as a GM I'd have interpreted it the other way.Also, 5' steps don't provoke unless someone has an ability that make them provoke. I just noticed that I need to tweak that ability since, as written, you can spend a swift action now, and then take a 50' 5' step in an hour if you want to.
Specify that they need to make an attack roll in the class feature. This is not an obvious or well understood rule, and I do not automatically assume that Fireball is not an attack - it breaks invisibility, therefore it is an attack. There are actually multiple perfectly valid definitions of 'attack' in D&D depending on what you're talking about. I'm not asking for a change, just a clarification in the text.4. By game rules, anything that doesn't incorporate an attack roll isn't an attack. This guy could be blown up by a fireball just as easily as anyone else with a good reflex save.
Yeah, completely different system. By standard, while DR is easy to bypass if you've got the right thing on hand, it's not something you should be outright ignoring/throwing away. Some monsters are only threats because of their DR 10/evil,silver & resistence lots to every concievable energy type and/or SR.5. I'll probably adjust Iron Fists; I personally use these rules (scroll to the last post) for DR and Energy Resistance, so...
Make it so you can get that extra re-roll (your third) when you get your additional swift action, and you must take it immediately. Or just state that the re-rolls must be taken before your next turn.6. I'll probably end up limiting Imperishable Body to one extra save, with another extra one once you hit Imperishable Self.
Muscle Wizard. Always funny. But Ranged!Unarmed-Monk just doesn't feel like monk, and without a limiter this makes his whole mobility schtic completely pointless.7. I might modify Ring the Golden Bell to be once a round. I do find the image of just screaming "I CAST FIST" every time you use it, though.
Eh, as long as you're thinking about it.9. You get an immediate action attack for two reasons; it either lets you disrupt a caster nearby who's casting defensively, or punch someone who just attacked you in the face. It doesn't disrupt actions that wouldn't already get disrupted by you getting hit.
Really, I don't think people will mind; in most games I'm in, unless someone specifically is trying to steal the spotlight, the party supports their friends being the big damn hero. I'd change it if it were some big ultra super move, but it's just a normal attack, so it shouldn't be any worse than if you, say, are playing an AoO build.
This is dependent on a few other things in the class. Let's say that you leave 'Ring the Bell' and this as-is. You no longer need to move. You no longer need your swift actions to provide mobility. Suddenly, you're a ranged tank who either hits the enemy more often, or else shrugs off any damage he chooses to deal - because no, you're NOT getting hit for 40+ damage a round by one guy who's also being attacked by the rest of your party. Either there's one bad-guy who's hitting you for a ridiculous amount of damage per attack (and he's getting chewed to pieces by your party members while he's wasting his attacks on your super-regenerative behind), or there's a hoard of little/medium guys who are each dealing piddling damage (because you've given yourself DR 15/- and they can each hit you for at most 5 damage). If there is a big guy AND little guys AND they're all beating on just you? Then congratulations, you're more useful in this encounter than the wizard. And you've also got DR 15/- and the big guy misses you at least once/round as you immediate-action-dodge him (especially if he's a spellcaster), so you can survive it for a good long while.10. As to your Wholeness of Body points... remember that the rounds where you are using both of your swift/immediate actions on healing are rounds where you aren't using them to have better movement or extra attacks. This becomes even more the case if I drop their BAB to 3/4ths level.
I mean, you get the choice between either being faster in getting out of the place that is hurting you, or attacking the problem, and you are instead standing there where you can continue to get hit, and heal less than 40 HP (which they are undoubtedly dealing more than at those levels.) It is a trade-off which, at that point in the least, you are probably only going to be doing when you are either at the point of dying, or if you are outside of battle, in which case the amount of HP that you regain doesn't matter, since any amount of unlimited out of combat healing will pretty much fill you back up in a few minutes.
Just tone down the numbers a bit. Barbarians are supposed to be nigh-unkillable slaughter-machines, and their DR caps out at 7 (which is far lower than where yours starts). Alternately, make this a serious choice by toning down 'Ring the Bell' & Elegant defence.
And 4 damage twice is 8 - whereas 2d6 is ~7. Which was my original suggestion. Also, I like the randomness of rolling dice - If I know in advance I'm going to be doing 4 con damage, that's nice. Having the ability to deal 1-6? A bit more fun for me.11. To deal that 10 Con damage, you have to make, and more importantly, hit with three attacks. This is after you've been in this class for 18 levels and, if you notice, this class doesn't give bonuses to your attack rolls.
Then factoring in the facts of what immunities high level monsters get; most are either immune to ability damage, or would be able to take the 10 Con damage and then retaliate in a way that would flatten the monk.
Remember that most high level fights only last for around 3 round on average; that 5 Con damage was intended to be one of those "if I haven't killed you by the end of 3 rounds, something is very wrong."
I might drop it by a bit (probably to 4 Con damage), if only because, looking back, 10 Con damage is a bit much.
Let's say you're an Aasimar Saint (BoED) Monk 20 (LA buyoff, since he gets Hellfire cheese) going up against said Hellfire Warlock.12. No worries about tearing it to pieces; criticism is the only way that it can be made into a good class.
I do disagree with your "more powerful than an optimized Hellfire Warlock"; that particular combination can be throwing out 24d6 + 2 negative levels per attack, and could full attack for an average 252 damage and 6 negative levels as a full attack, which are made as touch attacks and which can be easily increased by another 15d6 damage on that full attack. The negative levels are also another 30 damage, along with -6 to pretty much everything.
If you put this Monk in a "most dangerous full-attacker" competition with the Hellfire Warlock, the Warlock is going to beat them to a pulp, figuratively.
Initiative is 50/50 since you're a light-armor build. Let's say you go first. You're size is currently Large (spell), though you deal damage as though Gargantuan thanks to a ring (or a feat, or a spell). You spend a swift action to 5' step up to the warlock. You then get a full attack - you've got the first 2 TWF feats and haste, plus you're wearing a +5 amulet of mighty fists and your standard stat-boosting gear. All told you've got a Wisdom mod of +14, a dex/con mod around +8. Your Str mod is a measly +3, but you've managed to get Dex to damage in place of Str, so you don't care. You get 4 attacks at 20+14+5+1+1-2=39 (before additional buffs), 2 attacks at +34, 1 at +29 and 1 at +24, and each one does 5d10+13 (average 40) damage. One of those attacks also does 4/5 con damage, so an extra 40 damage. Which means that if you hit with all of your attacks, you'll be dealing 9*40=360 HP damage.
That's off the top of my head optimization. The hypothetical hellfire warlock is already in 'theoretical optimization' territory to get that 24d6 damage/shot, and they'd have to be a Glaivelock build to be able to do that iteratively (I don't think you can stack the negative levels on an eldritch glaive, either, though that might be wrong).
Just throwing out some numbers, so you know where I'm coming from.Homebrew:
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2013-03-13, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
1. Again, my DMs have never barred that combination; it's because all the people I play with play mid-high op games, so that is the kind of "cheese" I consider "competent".
2. Adding that in would be reduntant; it's still a 5' step, even though you are moving more than 5'. Therefor, it still uses the same mechanical baseline as a 5' step.
4. I completely forgot about the Invisibility definition. I'll have to specify.
5. I'm thinking about this one; I think I'll change it so that you bypass DR magic and DR material, but not DR alignment. And then I can just have the capstone increase it to "screw you, DR".
6. That sounds acceptable; it also makes using effects that would trigger Imperishable Body take an action from you instead of taking effect, so...
7. + 10. Taking these points into account... it really does reveal Ring the Golden Bell to be out of theme (you should be running around, punching people you don't like in the face); and, since you could grab a martial Light/One-Handed Throwing weapon with Monastic Weapon User if you want to fight at a range, I think I'll drop it. I just need another 7th level class feature...
10. You see, that DR 7/-? That's if you aren't dipping around to boost it. Barbarian DR is also horribly low; I'm going to be redoing the barbarian, and it will get hella DR as a thing. I'm going to shift Monk DR back down to just Wis mod, though.
11. Normally, I would agree with you about making it 1d6, but one of the things I'm restricting myself to with this class is that everything you do should be reliable, so that you can pretty much think your actions ahead, rather than leaving it up to chance.
I don't feel that this kind of fighting style is one that leaves much to chance.
12. For the Hellfire Warlock, you forgot Mortalbane, or the fact that they can take a single feat to get +2d6+20 damage against the monk if they are flatfooted (a bit unfair, since the Monk could do the same, but...)
Also, you are using Saint, which A. is one of the most powerful LA +2 templates in existence and B. is cripplingly specific in what kind of character you can play with it. Of course the Monk is going to be stronger! I've been in games that allowed the Hellfire Warlock but that didn't allow the Saint Template because the latter was too strong; it hands you a bunch of really strong defensive boosts.
Consider that in most mid-high op games, the Hellfire Warlock is considered to be necessary for the class to deal damage. The Warlock is a debuffer, not a damage dealer.
If we are doing a damage comparison, use Ubercharger instead of a Hellfire Warlock; the Hellfire Warlock (which is CO, not TO), while nice, is just a mildly cheesy way to get the Warlock to deal competent levels of damage without having to use a Glaivelock build.
Especially after I drop RtGB, the Monk would actually probably die to the Warlock, since the Warlock would be flying and would have a 200' range.Last edited by Amechra; 2013-03-13 at 04:57 PM.
If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you! Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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2013-03-13, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
I tweaked some things; Elegant Defense did not have to be tweaked, since effects that don't have an attack roll can't miss, and the class feature causes attacks to miss, instead of negating them.
I also reduced the BAB (they get 3 attacks at full BAB), and Ring the Golden Bell has been replaced by Eyes of Clarity, which lets you play a blind monk (or lets you play a monk who later gets blind, at the very least.)
I'm considering giving them some boost to their attack rolls, but I don't feel that that would be very necessary.If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you! Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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2013-03-13, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
Wow there is a lot being said here. O.O I can't keep up with all the stuff so I'm just gonna say what I say.
Honestly this is a very cool class idea. I really do feel that the monk was in need of some tough love. Yeah honestly flavor-wise it doesn't really seem like a monk per se, but it at least has a lot of fun with what it does. And I do commend you making this class so spirited.
As far as balance goes I don't see anything wrong with it. I like how so many abilities for this class take the swift action, it really makes the player use their head with what they want to do. But overall I'm fairly new to any idea of optimization, so I have no idea how balanced the class actually is, just that it looks pretty well done. But I do want to say good job.
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Originally Posted by Jacior
Awesome Holy Knight Haluesen avatar done by the uber skilled Grinner!
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2013-03-13, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
Thanks for the complement. It's nice to feel appreciated
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If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you! Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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2013-03-13, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
If you're moving more than 5', as a GM I could easily rule that you're no longer making a 5' step but simply moving as a swift action. That's actually my initial reading. In which case yes, that ability provokes AoOs.2. Adding that in would be reduntant; it's still a 5' step, even though you are moving more than 5'. Therefor, it still uses the same mechanical baseline as a 5' step.
Sounds good.5. I'm thinking about this one; I think I'll change it so that you bypass DR magic and DR material, but not DR alignment. And then I can just have the capstone increase it to "screw you, DR".
Just remove the option of full-attacking with it. Make it a standard action. Monks and 'ki blasts' are fairly in-theme, it's just not their primary mode of attack. Give the ranged option a downside and it won't see constant use unless it becomes your 'signature' technique (i.e. you optimize for it).7. + 10. Taking these points into account... it really does reveal Ring the Golden Bell to be out of theme (you should be running around, punching people you don't like in the face); and, since you could grab a martial Light/One-Handed Throwing weapon with Monastic Weapon User if you want to fight at a range, I think I'll drop it. I just need another 7th level class feature...
Sounds good. With other changes made, the large self-healing isn't too terrible. Makes the monk night unkillable by damage, but that can be said of many classes.10. You see, that DR 7/-? That's if you aren't dipping around to boost it. Barbarian DR is also horribly low; I'm going to be redoing the barbarian, and it will get hella DR as a thing. I'm going to shift Monk DR back down to just Wis mod, though.
Fair enough.11. Normally, I would agree with you about making it 1d6, but one of the things I'm restricting myself to with this class is that everything you do should be reliable, so that you can pretty much think your actions ahead, rather than leaving it up to chance.
You didn't read anything I wrote beyond 'Saint'. Take away the saint template. Make the guy an untemplated human with an untyped +6 bonus to wisdom. My argument remains unchanged.12.-Snip-
As for your counter points: Warlocks with Hellfire Warlock who gain +18d6 to damage by extending a 3-level prestige class beyond 3 levels are TO. Just because they're playable does not mean that the concept isn't a complete violation of RAI.
And no, I'm not going to do a comparison with Supercharger. Supercharger is completely worthless at anything other than charging. They've chosen every feat, class level, racial feature and skill point to maximize their ability to charge, and everything else they try to do suffers because of it. The monk I posited, on the other hand, is a viable fighter in virtually any combat scenario I care to think of, and I had at most 4 feats listed. I could just as easily do a comparison with a Batman Wizard and say that in comparison the monk was perfectly balanced without editing. I chose the Hellfire Warlock for comparison because they're an example of reasonable, versatile and high-op build capable of really significant damage output, while still remaining tier-4.
As for a 20th level monk losing to something because it has flight, now you're just being silly. We're talking high-end optimization here.
Edit: I like Eyes of clerity, though. That's a nifty mechanic. I'd even add: If the monk already has Blind Fighting, they may choose a different feat as a bonus feat.Last edited by kestrel404; 2013-03-13 at 05:37 PM.
Homebrew:
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2013-03-13, 06:02 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
I did read beyond Saint.
Hellfire Warlock is CO; CO isn't RAI in any way, shape, or form.
Also, the negative levels for the Warlock would apply to every attack.
Also, that TWF with your Unarmed attacks? You can't TWF with your base Unarmed Attack, though base Monks can. This reduces you to 5 attacks, 6 with Haste (which the Glaivelock can benefit from too.)
Again, you are assuming a ton of magic items on your Monk (also, please tell me where you are getting +6 untyped to Wisdom? Or did you have that as a placeholder for "+6 to Wisdom in some way or other.")
Compare the Monk to an optimized Rogue. Or to a Glaivelock with actual items.
And I was kinda kidding with the flight, if only because the Monk can grab a ranged weapon that matches their Unarmed Strike in utility.
As for the 5' step thing, it explicitly doesn't have you move as a swift action. The ability explicitly states that you are modifying the distance of your next 5' step. I don't need to change anything.
Ring the Golden Bell is still an official feat option, so you can just take that.
I'm going to fiddle with Eyes of Clarity; if you already have Blind Fight, it will instead allow you to apply its benefits against ranged attacks and it will reduce miss chance from concealment to 20% across the board.If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you! Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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2013-03-13, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
OK, in all honesty, at this point I think the class looks to be in great shape. I don't have any real problems with its balance at all. I think a few of the class features need a bit more clarification, but I tend to be very wordy.
Good job overall. Looks very nice.Homebrew:
Iron Chef Trophies:Spoiler
Iron Chef X - 3rd (My first entry!)
Iron Chef XI - 4th
Iron Chef XIII - 4th
Iron Chef XIV - Honorable Mention (and 4th place)
Iron Chef XVI - 3rd place
Iron Chef XVIII - 1st place
Iron Chef XXXIV - 2nd place
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2013-03-13, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
Thanks; considering I've been torturing myself recently by looking at my early homebrew (which was eye-tearingly bad, I think that I'm pretty satisfied with this as well.)
Now, what to make next...
(If anyone still sees any problems, they are welcome to post.)If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you! Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj
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2013-03-13, 09:34 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: This Is Not a Monk Fix; It is a Rewrite [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]
Looked over again after thinking about some other class stuff that I know. Yes the class is very powerful. That just means that the other classes around it need to be strong too.
So...mind if I show some of my friends this? They need to see what a real monk is like.Spoiler: Sigs about the Internet and Life Originally Posted by Amidus Drexel
Yeah... even if it's a fairly friendly place by the internet's standards... it's still the internet. A certain level of pedantic bickering is to be expected. Originally Posted by Jay R
Originally Posted by Jacior
Awesome Holy Knight Haluesen avatar done by the uber skilled Grinner!
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