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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    I look forward to the rulings.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    mattie_p's Avatar

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Have a third entry. Awesome. Don't hold your breath though, have a hot date tonight and may not be able to post on time. Expect the entries overnight or in the AM - EST (USA).
    This forum may use my name, simulated likeness, and/or words for any entertainment purposes or signature quotes.

    Chairman Emeritus of Zinc Saucier. It is just like Iron Chef but comes with double the prize money.

    Spoiler
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    Prizes:
    Eglath - 2nd Place Iron Chef XXXII

    Avatar by Derjuin, sing her praises to Elysium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Enjoy the date and since its Easter im not expecting anything lol. Have fun.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    OK, crew, time to reveal the entries. We have 4.

    This first entry doesn't know if can cast as divine or arcane...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elzar

    True Necromancer Try and make a close fit to the True Necromancer, but with out using it!

    For me the key salient points of the true necromancer is that it must encompass the following

    • Divine and Arcane Casting level 8 spells
    • Rebuke Undead
    • Death Domain


    I came up with this, I wanted to keep the casting to 8th level only ( I could of made this 9th If I wished, but purposely limited this to just 8th!)


    Elzar

    • Human
    • Myrkul worshiper
    • Forgotten Realms
    • Max Cha, dump Con
    • Max Diplomacy every level


    What I get is

    • Divine and Arcane Casting level 8 spells (limited divine list)
    • Rebuke Undead as a 10th level cleric (poor) but with Cha+3 +8 turning attempts - with out equipment
    • Death Domain
    • DMM(persist)
    • Starting stats: STR: 10 DEX: 14 CON: 8 INT: 14 WIS: 10 CHA: 18
    • I've left other feats free to pick what you want...
    • Animate dead(Sp) 1/day as CL + Horned Harbinger level + cha mod = 17+10+6 = 33 sans items
    • Create Undead(Sp) 1/day can spontaneously convert in to Animate dead
    • Create Greater Undead(Sp) 1/day can spontaneously convert to Create Undead, ro Animate dead
    • Control Undead = 10*CL = 170 HD sans items
    • Command Undead = 5*Cleric Level = 50 HD sans items


    1. Sha'ir 1, magical training (sorcerer)(f), versatile spellcaster(f) (using magical training as entry)
    2. Sha'ir 2
    3. Sha'ir 3, knowledge devotion(f) (gives knowledge(religion) so I can enter Mystic Theurge early), Turns in to a Necropolitan @3rd
    4. Mystic Theurge 1
    5. Mystic Theurge 2
    6. Horned Harbinger 1 Extend Spell(f)
    7. Horned Harbinger 2
    8. Mystic Theurge 3
    9. Horned Harbinger 3 Persist Spell(f) Extra Turning(bf)
    10. Horned Harbinger 4 Extra Turning(bf)
    11. Mystic Theurge 4
    12. Horned Harbinger 5 Divine Metamagic(Persist)(f)
    13. Horned Harbinger 6
    14. Mystic Theurge 5
    15. Horned Harbinger 7 (f)
    16. Horned Harbinger 8
    17. Mystic Theurge 6
    18. Horned Harbinger 9 (f)
    19. Horned Harbinger 10
    20. Mystic Theurge 7


    Build

    Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Features
    1 Sha'ir 1 0 0 0 2 Diplomacy 4, Knowledge (arcana)
    4 ranks , Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks

    Versatile Spellcaster, Magical
    Training (sorcerer)

    Summon gen familiar
    2 Sha'ir 2 1 0 0 3 -
    3 Sha'ir 3 1 1 1 3 Diplomacy 6, Knowledge (arcana)
    6 ranks , Knowledge (religion) 6* ranks

    Knowledge Devotion (Religion as
    class skill)

    -
    4 Mystic Theurge 1st 1 1 1 5 - - +1 level of existing arcane
    spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    5 Mystic Theurge 2nd 2 1 1 6 - - +1 level of existing arcane
    spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    6 Horned Harbinger 1st 2 3 1 8 - Extend Spell Bone Horns, Rebuke Undead, Death
    Domain

    7 Horned Harbinger 2nd 3 4 1 9 - - Deathwatch, Animate dead
    8 Mystic Theurge 3rd 3 5 2 9 - - +1 level of existing arcane
    spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    9 Horned Harbinger 3rd 4 5 3 9 - Extra Turning (b), Persist Spell Bonus Feat
    10 Horned Harbinger 4th 5 6 3 10 - Extra Turning (b) Bonus Feat
    11 Mystic Theurge 4th 6 6 4 11 - - +1 level of existing arcane
    spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    12 Horned Harbinger 5th 6 6 4 11 - Divine Metamagic (Persist) Captain of undeath
    13 Horned Harbinger 6th 7 7 5 12 - - Create Undead
    14 Mystic Theurge 5th 7 7 5 12 - - +1 level of existing arcane
    spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    15 Horned Harbinger 7th 8 7 5 12 - - Bonus Feat, Ranged Animation
    16 Horned Harbinger 8th 9 8 5 13 - - Create Greater Undead
    17 Mystic Theurge 6th 10 9 6 14 - - +1 level of existing arcane
    spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    18 Horned Harbinger 9th 10 9 7 14 - - Bonus Feat
    19 Horned Harbinger 10th 11 10 7 15 - - General of Undeath
    20 Mystic Theurge 7th 11 10 7 15 - - +1 level of existing arcane
    spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
    This forum may use my name, simulated likeness, and/or words for any entertainment purposes or signature quotes.

    Chairman Emeritus of Zinc Saucier. It is just like Iron Chef but comes with double the prize money.

    Spoiler
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    Prizes:
    Eglath - 2nd Place Iron Chef XXXII

    Avatar by Derjuin, sing her praises to Elysium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    mattie_p's Avatar

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    One dead to rule them...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcos
    Marcos the Curst



    not my art. all props to the original aritst for a nice piece of work

    If I need to change the Format please let me know. I tried to use what you suggested but my tiny brain could not grasp it lol.

    Backstory
    Spoiler
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    Knowledge. Knowledge was my life, and is my unlife. It all started with knowledge, and I
    suspect it will end the same.

    Growing up in the temple was not an easy life for me. I was scrawny, puny, and picked on by
    all the more athletic boys, but oh how I wanted to be one of them. A Paladin, the righter of wrongs
    the doer of good. Save the princess and maybe, just maybe marry her.

    However that was not to be my fate. No, I was destined to be a clerk. How UNHEROIC! Then one
    day it happened. While searching through some old books I came across a scroll. Taking it to
    a far off corner and dusting it off I settled down to read it. Once I started I could not stop.
    Like a boy possessed I kept reading and reading. Knowing I needed to stop but couldnt. Then in
    a flash it happened. I cast my first spell. Nothing major of course. Just a glowing ball of light.
    Naturally I had to rush and show all the boys that always picked on me that I CAN do something.

    Before I got very far though I was stopped by the Head Abbot. Seeing the joy on my face and
    a Glowing Ball of light in my hand made him ask me what happened. So I told him. His face fell.
    Telling me that I never should have done that. That the knowledge I took was precious, and that
    I could have gotten hurt or worse. My heart fell.

    So he sent me to go train with another Sect of the Order. There I learned many things, but
    nothing more important than what the Abbot had already taught me. Knowledge was precious.
    So after learning what I could I set out to go search for more knowledge. I came across
    many rumors that lead me to this or lead me to that, but it was a tablet that I found deep
    in a catacombs to a long lost god that I found my greatest Discovery. Carved into jet black
    onyx was a way to tap into a seceret magic resivoir. After I got finished reading the tablet
    I felt a strange pulse of magic wash over me and I passed out.

    Waking up I felt strange, and hollow? What happened to me? Standing up proved difficult, like
    something was catching somewhere, looking down I noticed I looked thinner. Then I noticed I could
    see. There was no light anywhere and yet I could see. How? Pulling out my pocket mirror I peer into
    it and immedietly throw it away in fear. Turning around I look for the undead monster behind me.
    Turning, and turning, until I felt like I should have been dizzy but I wasnt. I stopped. Nothing there.
    Just me. So I pick back up the now broken mirror and look back at myself. Red Glowing Eyes, No Skin,
    No Muscle, No NOTHING! Just bones.

    Picking back up the Onyx Tablet I begin to go back over it. After a bit new words start to appear
    at the bottom. "Now that you bear my knowledge bear the curse of taking it". So once again taking
    knowledge has proven my undoing.

    Over the years I have accumulated more forgotten knowledge from this Realm and many others. Using my
    new undead state I surrounded myself with more of my kind so as to stave off the feeling of being alone.
    Occassionally someone wanders into my study, like you did, and I entertain them for a bit before I turn
    them. And I see you show the same colors of my old Order. How nice, I bet they come to rescue you.
    Paladins are pretty stupid like that. Maybe... Just MAYBE they can end my wretched cursed existance
    and grant me the peace I have longed for. However, I will not go easy on them. Ahhhh here they come now.
    I shall return shortly.


    Stats Level and misc.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Marcos the Cursed Alignment Lawful Evil
    Human Death Knight of Krynn Archivist 5/ Shadow Adept 10

    Initial Stats
    Str 8 (12)
    Dex 14
    Con 8 (-)
    Int 16 (19)
    Wiz 16 (14)(16)
    Cha 14 (16)

    Final Stats
    Str 12 (+4 from Death Knight)
    Dex 14
    Con -
    Int 19 (+3 from leveling Stat Bonus)
    Wiz 16 (-2 from Shadow Weave feat, +2 from Death Knight)
    Cha 16 (+2 from Death Knight)

    BaB
    Archivist 0 1 1 2 2
    Shadow Adept 0 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 = 7/2

    Fortitude
    Archivist 2 3 3 4 4
    Shadow Adept 0 0 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 (7+-=7)
    Reflex
    Archivist 0 0 1 1 1
    Shadow Adept 0 0 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 (4+2=6)
    Will
    Archivist 2 3 3 4 4
    Shadow Adept 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 (11+3=14)


    Skills
    Spoiler
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    Skills

    Lvl1 32 Concentration 4(3), Decipher Script 4(7), Knowledge (Arcana) 4(7)
    Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 4(7), Knowledge (History) 4(7), Knowledge (Relion) 4(7)
    Search 4(7), Spellcraft 4(7)

    lvl2 8 Concentration 5(4), Decipher Script 5(8), Knowledge (Arcana) 5(8)
    Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 5(8), Knowledge (History) 5(8), Knowledge (Relion) 5(8)
    Search 5(8), Spellcraft 5(8)

    lvl3 8 Concentration 6(9), Decipher Script 6(9), Knowledge (Arcana) 6(9)
    Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 6(9), Knowledge (History) 6(9), Knowledge (Relion) 6(9)
    Search 6(9), Spellcraft 6(9)

    lvl4 8 Concentration 7(6), Decipher Script 7(10), Knowledge (Arcana) 7(10)
    Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 7(10), Knowledge (History) 7(10), Knowledge (Relion) 7(10)
    Search 7(10), Spellcraft 7(10)

    lvl5 8 Concentration 8(7), Decipher Script 8(11), Knowledge (Arcana) 8(11)
    Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 8(11), Knowledge (History) 8(11), Knowledge (Relion) 8(11)
    Search 8(11), Spellcraft 8(11)

    lvl6 6 Concentration 9(8), Knowledge (Arcana) 9(12), Knowledge (History) 9(12)
    Knowledge (the Planes) 1(4), Knowledge (Religion) 9(12), Spellcraft 9(12)

    lvl7-11 Death Knight

    lvl12 6 Concentration 10(13), Knowledge (Arcana) 10(13), Knowledge (History) 10(13)
    Knowledge (the Planes) 2(6), Knowledge (Religion) 10(13), Spellcraft 10(13)

    lvl13 7 Concentration 11(14), Knowledge (Arcana) 11(15), Knowledge (History) 11(15)
    Knowledge (the Planes) 4(8), Knowledge (Religion) 11(15), Spellcraft 11(15)

    lvl14 7 Concentration 12(15), Knowledge (Arcana) 12(16), Knowledge (History) 12(16)
    Knowledge (the Planes) 6(8), Knowledge (Religion) 12(16), Spellcraft 12(16)

    lvl15 7 Concentration 13(16), Knowledge (Arcana) 13(17), Knowledge (History) 13(17)
    Knowledge (the Planes) 8(10), Knowledge (Religion) 13(17), Spellcraft 13(17)

    lvl16 7 Concentration 14(17), Knowledge (Arcana) 14(18), Knowledge (History) 14(18)
    Knowledge (the Planes) 10(12), Knowledge (Religion) 14(18), Spellcraft 14(18)

    lvl17 7 Concentration 15(18), Knowledge (Arcana) 15(19), Knowledge (History) 15(19)
    Knowledge (the Planes) 12(13), Knowledge (Religion) 15(19), Spellcraft 15(19)

    lvl18 7 Concentration 16(19), Knowledge (Arcana) 16(20), Knowledge (History) 16(20)
    Knowledge (the Planes) 14(5), Knowledge (Religion) 16(20), Spellcraft 16(20)

    lvl19 7 Concentration 17(20), Knowledge (Arcana) 17(21), Knowledge (History) 17(21)
    Knowledge (the Planes) 16(5), Knowledge (Religion) 17(21), Spellcraft 17(21)

    lvl20 7 Concentration 18(21), Knowledge (Arcana) 18(22), Knowledge (History) 18(22)
    Knowledge (the Planes) 18(5), Knowledge (Religion) 18(22), Spellcraft 18(22)



    Feats
    Spoiler
    Show
    Feats
    1 Spell Focus (Necromancy), Spell Focus (Conjuration),
    2
    3 Shadow Weave Magic
    4
    5
    6 Fell Animate
    7-11 (Death Knight LA)
    12
    13
    14 Cloudy Conjuration
    15
    16
    17 Necromantic Presence
    18
    19
    20 Elven Spell Lore (Fireball-Negative Energy) I picked that because nothing like having a Negative Energy Fireball go off on yourself to heal you and all of your minions


    Special Abilities
    Spoiler
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    Special Abilities

    Lvl1 Dark Knowledge (Tactics) 3/day, Scribe Scroll
    lvl2 Lore Mastery
    lvl3 Dark Knowledge 4/day
    lvl4 Still Mind
    lvl5 Dark Knowledge (Puissance)
    lvl6 Shadow Feats (Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, Tenacious Magic)
    lvl7-11 Death Knight
    lvl12 Shadow Defense +1, Low Light Vision, Undead Followers (Up to Twice HD. 1d6 Ghouls, 1d4 Ghasts, 1d12 Medium Skeletons,
    1d4 Wights or 1d8 Medium Zombies. 1/Month), Damage Reduction 10/Magic, Immunities: Cold, Electricity, Polymorph, those possed by Undead.
    See Invisibility, Spell Resistance 20, Summon Mount, Turn Immunity, Darkvision 60'
    Abyssal Blast 1/day,
    lvl13 Spell Power +1
    lvl14 Shield of Shadows, Symbol (Pain) 1/day, Spell Like Abilities 1/day (Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, Wall of Ice)
    lvl15 Metamagic Feat (Black Lore of Moil), Shadow Defense +2
    lvl16 Spell Power +2, Symbol (Fear), Spell Resistance 21
    lvl17 Shadow Walk, Darkvision, Spell Resistance 22
    lvl18 Shadow Defense+3, Greater Shield of Shadows, Power Word (Blind) 1/day, Spell Resistance 23
    lvl19 Spell Power +3, Spell Resistance 24, Create Skeletal Warrior
    lvl20 Shadow Double, Power Word (Stun), Spell Resistance 25


    Spells (i actually figured that one out lol)
    Spoiler
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    Spells per day/Spells Known
    {table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

    1st|3|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    2nd|4|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    3rd|4|4|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    4th|4|4|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    5th|4|5|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-

    6th|4|5|5|4|-|-|-|-|-|-

    7th|4|6|5|4|2|-|-|-|-|-

    8th|4|6|5|5|3|-|-|-|-|-

    9th|4|6|6|5|3|2|-|-|-|-

    10th|4|6|6|5|4|3|-|-|-|-

    11th|4|6|6|6|4|3|2|-|-|-

    12th|4|6|6|6|4|4|3|-|-|-

    13th|4|6|6|6|5|4|3|2|-|-

    14th|4|6|6|6|5|4|4|3|-|-

    15th|4|6|6|6|5|5|4|3|2|-

    16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]


    Ingredients
    Spoiler
    Show

    Using the Death Knight of Krynn Template this build gets an amount of undead under his command that just keep appearing after being destroyed. Archivist for reasons that are explained later. Shadow Adept because it gave bonuses to Necromancy DC's like the True Necromancer class. Some of the feat choices might seem off but it works with the theme or are pre reqs. Cloudy Conjuration fits the theme well, and since this character likes to use Summon Undead it works out wonderfully. Necromantic Presence gives his minions extra turning resist. Elven Spell Lore not only fits into the theme of a Knowledge Hungry Undead but also can be used to add negative energy to a spell thus healing him or his minions.

    Yes there is cheese and its not noticible in the recipe unless I explain how
    it all works together. The Archivist is able to learn ANY divine spell. Either
    through copying from others Spells books or by copying a divine scroll. Just like
    anyother spell caster of his type ie a Wizard.

    Well the Generic Class the Spellcaster can cast spells as Divine. They also get access
    to choose from the Cleric, Druid, and Sorc/Wizards spell lists. So if one had Scribe Scroll
    they could make any spell on the Sorc/Wizard list on a Divine Scroll thus
    allowing the Archivist to learn them and to copy them into his Spell Book.

    Now yes that is a bit of a stretch but thats why it is cheese. It also goes with
    the True Necromancer ability of casting both Arcane and Divine spells. I just
    figured out a way to get those spells by only selecting one class.


    This was alot of fun and I really enjoyed myself building this. Its simple and to the point and gets the job done.
    This forum may use my name, simulated likeness, and/or words for any entertainment purposes or signature quotes.

    Chairman Emeritus of Zinc Saucier. It is just like Iron Chef but comes with double the prize money.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Prizes:
    Eglath - 2nd Place Iron Chef XXXII

    Avatar by Derjuin, sing her praises to Elysium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    mattie_p's Avatar

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Dread stacking with death stacking with necromancy. Is this the necromancer you are looking for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vysarji
    Lady Vysarji, Mistress of Death
    Spoiler
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    NE Female Human Death Master 8/Dread Necromancer 2/Ultimate Magus 10

    Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 14
    all ability increases go to Intellligence

    Build
    Spoiler
    Show
    {table=head]Level|Class|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Skills|Feats|Class Features

    1st|Death Master 1|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Concentration 4, Craft (alchemy) 2, Heal 2, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (arcana) 4, Knowledge (religion) 4, Spellcraft 4|Spell Focus (necromancy), Tomb Tainted Soul|rebuke undead, undead minion

    2nd|Death Master 2|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Concentration +1, Heal +1, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1| |

    3rd|Death Master 3|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Concentration +1, Heal +1, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1|Arcane Defense|

    4th|Death Master 4|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Concentration +1, Heal +1, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1| |

    5th|Death Master 5|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Concentration +1, Heal +1, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1| |master of the dead

    6th|Death Master 6|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Concentration +1, Heal +1, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1|Extend Spell|

    7th|Death Master 7|
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Concentration +1, Heal +1, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1| |

    8th|Death Master 8|
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Concentration +1, Craft (alchemy) +1, Heal +1, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1| |

    9th|Dread Necromancer 1|
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +8
    |Bluff 1, Concentration +1, Craft (alchemy) +1, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1|Black Lore of Moil|charnel touch, rebuke undead

    10th|Dread Necromancer 2|
    +7
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +9
    |Bluff +1, Concentration +1, Craft (alchemy) +1, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1| |lich body DR 2

    11th|Ultimate Magus 1|
    +7
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +11
    |Concentration +1, Craft (alchemy) +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (planes) 1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1, Use Magic Device 1| |arcane spell power +1

    12th|Ultimate Magus 2|
    +8
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +12
    |Concentration +1, Craft (alchemy) +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (planes) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1, Use Magic Device +1|Fell Drain|expanded spell knowledge (1st)

    13th|Ultimate Magus 3|
    +8
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +12
    |Concentration +1, Craft (alchemy) +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (planes) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1, Use Magic Device +1| |augmented casting

    14th|Ultimate Magus 4|
    +9
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +13
    |Concentration +1, Craft (alchemy) +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (planes) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1, Use Magic Device +1| |arcane spell power +2, expanded spell knowledge (2nd)

    15th|Ultimate Magus 5|
    +9
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +13
    |Concentration +1, Craft (alchemy) +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (planes) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1, Use Magic Device +1|Maximize Spell, Persistent Spell|

    16th|Ultimate Magus 6|
    +10
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +14
    |Concentration +1, Craft (alchemy) +1, Decipher Script 1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (planes) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1, Use Magic Device +1| |expanded spell knowledge (3rd)

    17th|Ultimate Magus 7|
    +10
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +14
    |Concentration +1, Craft (alchemy) +1, Decipher Script +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (planes) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1, Use Magic Device +1| |arcane power +3

    18th|Ultimate Magus 8|
    +11
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +15
    |Concentration +1, Craft (alchemy) +1, Decipher Script +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (planes) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1, Use Magic Device +1|Greater Spell Focus (necromancy)|expanded spell knowledge (4th)

    19th|Ultimate Magus 9|
    +11
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +15
    |Concentration +1, Craft (alchemy) +1, Decipher Script +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (planes) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1, Use Magic Device +1|Fell Animate|

    20th|Ultimate Magus 10|
    +12
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +16
    |Concentration +1, Craft (alchemy) +1, Decipher Script +1, Knowledge (arcana) +1, Knowledge (planes) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Spellcraft +1, Use Magic Device +1| |arcane spell power +4, expanded spell knowledge (5th)[/table]

    Spell Progression
    Spoiler
    Show
    Death Master Spells per day
    {table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th

    1st|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    2nd|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    3rd|4|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    4th|4|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    5th|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-

    6th|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-

    7th|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-

    8th|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

    9th|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

    10th|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

    11th|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

    12th|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-

    13th|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-

    14th|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-

    15th|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-

    16th|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-

    17th|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-

    18th|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-

    19th|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-

    20th|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-[/table]

    Dread Necromancer Spells Known
    {table=head]Level|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th

    1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    9th|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    10th|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    11th|5|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    12th|6|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    13th|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    14th|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    15th|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    16th|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-

    17th|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-

    18th|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-

    19th|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-

    20th|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-[/table]


    Lady Vysarji is better than the "true necromancer" since she can mimic all of the abilities of the prestige class and do them better. She can rebuke undead and emulates the necromantic power through her Greater Spell Focus. She has plenty of necromantic spells from both classes and augmented by the Ultimate Magus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Chairman's note: I hope you judge this entry, but it will not "officially" count as it was submitted by the chairman. Feel free to critique as you will, but honesty requires me to not count it as an official entry. It will still count towards honorable mention, should it earn that award.

    Emphasis towards Zinc Saucier, not necromancer:

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol
    Carol d'Cannith, NE Female Human

    Her story:

    Spoiler
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    Carol was born to the Cannith House, and quickly grew into a prominent member of the House. She is completely dedicated to constructs, their creation, and their domination. She started making her own homonculi, but gradually developed the capacity to control warforged created by the house creation forges, as well as other animated objects, golems, and constructs.

    She maintains her public image as a sweet, matronly figure through the use of things such as a fat-suit, a heart-shaped hairdo and putting on a façade which casts her as the friendly mother of all constructs. However, she is in fact emaciated, foul-mouthed, evil, and malevolent.
    Carol is not above using criminal or borderlinе criminal methods to accumulate greater profits. She has been known or suspected of using brutal business practices and covert action to eliminate threats from other companies or to keep potential products from the market


    How she became famous

    Spoiler
    Show
    {table=head] Level | Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills| Feats|Class Features
    1st | Artificer 1 |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    | Conc: 4, Craft (Metalworking) 2, Craft (Pottery) 1, Craft (Armorsmith) 1, Craft (Sculpt) 4, Know (Arc) 4, Know (Pl) 4, Know (Loc) 2), Spellcraft 4, UMD 4 | *Scribe Scroll, Least Dragonmark of Making(Repair Light Damage 1/day), Legendary Artisan | Artificer Knowledge, artisan bonus, disable trap, item creation, Craft Reserve 20
    2nd | Artificer 2 |
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    | Conc: 5, Craft (Metalworking) 3, Craft (Sculpt) 5, Know (Arc) 5, Know (Pl) 5, Know (Loc) 2.5), Spellcraft 5, UMD 5 | *Brew Potion | Craft Reserve 40
    3rd | Artificer 3 |
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    | Conc: 6, Craft (Metalworking) 4, Craft (Sculpt) 6, Know (Arc) 6, Know (Pl) 6, Know (Loc) 3), Spellcraft 6, UMD 6 | *Craft Wondrous Item, Cannith Forgecraft | Craft Reserve 60
    4th | Artificer 4 |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    | Conc: 7, Craft (Sculpt) 7, Know (Arc) 7, Know (Pl) 7, Know (Nature) 1, Spellcraft 7, UMD 7 | Extraordinary Artisan | Craft homonculus, Bonus Feat, Craft Reserve 80
    5th | Artificer 5 |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    | Conc: 8, Craft (Sculpt) 8, Know (Arc) 8, Know (Pl) 8, Know (Nature) 2, Spellcraft 8, UMD 8 | *Craft Magic Arms and Armor | Retain essence, Craft Reserve 100
    6th | Cloistered Cleric 1 |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +6
    | Conc: 9, Craft (Sculpt) 9, Know (Arc) 9, Know (Pl) 9, Know (Rel) 2, Know (Dun) 2, Spellcraft 9, UMD 9 | Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric), Knowledge Devotion (retains Know (Dung) as class skill) | Rebuke undead, Domains (Knowledge, Artifice, Warforged)
    7th | Cloistered Cleric 2 |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +7
    | Conc: 10, Craft (Sculpt) 10, Know (Arc) 10, Know (Pl) 10, Know (Rel) 4, Know (Dun) 4, Spellcraft 10, UMD 10 | -- | --
    8th | Cloistered Cleric 3 |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +7
    | Conc: 11, Craft (Sculpt) 11, Know (Rel) 6, Know (Dun) 6, Know (Nature) 3, Spellcraft 11, UMD 11 | -- | --
    9th | Cloistered Cleric 4 |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +8
    | Conc: 12, Craft (Sculpt) 12, Know (Rel) 8, Know (Dun) 8, Know (Nature) 4, Spellcraft 12, UMD 12 | Improved Homonculus | --
    10th | Cloistered Cleric 5 |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +8
    | Conc: 13, Craft (Sculpt) 13, Know (Rel) 9, Know (Dun) 9, Know (Local) 5, Spellcraft 13, UMD 13 | -- | --
    11th | Cloistered Cleric 6 |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +9
    | Conc: 14, Craft (Sculpt) 14, Know (Dun) 10, Know (Local) 6, Know (Nature) 5, Know (Rel) 10, Spellcraft 14, UMD 14 | -- | --
    12th | Cloistered Cleric 7 |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +9
    | Conc: 15, Craft (Sculpt) 15, Know (Dun) 12, Know (Local) 7, Know (Nature) 6, Spellcraft 15, UMD 15 | Lesser Dragonmark of Making (Repair Serious Damage 1/day) | --
    13th | Cloistered Cleric 8 |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +10
    | Conc: 16, Craft (Sculpt) 16, Know (Dun) 13, Know (Local) 8, Know (Nature) 7.5, Spellcraft 16, UMD 16 | -- | --
    14th | Cloistered Cleric 9 |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +10
    | Conc: 17, Craft (Sculpt) 17, Know (Local) 9, Know (Nature) 9, Know (Pl) 11, Spellcraft 17, UMD 17 | -- | --
    15th | Cloistered Cleric 10 |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +11
    | Conc: 18, Craft (Sculpt) 18, Know (Arc) 11, Know (Pl) 12, Know (Rel) 10, Know (Local) 10, Know (Nature) 10, Spellcraft 18, UMD 18 | Craft Construct | --
    16th | Cloistered Cleric 11 |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +11
    | Conc: 19, Craft (Sculpt) 19, Know (Arc) 12, Know (Pl) 13, Know (Rel) 11, Know (Local) 11, Know (Nature) 11, Spellcraft 19, UMD 19 | -- | --
    17th | Cloistered Cleric 12 |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +12
    | Conc: 20, Craft (Sculpt) 20, Know (Arc) 13, Know (Rel) 13, Know (Local) 12, Know (Nature) 12, Spellcraft 20, UMD 20 | -- | --
    18th | Cloistered Cleric 13 |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |
    +12
    | Conc: 21, Craft (Sculpt) 21, Know (Arc) 14, Know (Rel) 14, Know (Dun) 14, Know (Local) 13, Know (Nature) 13, Spellcraft 21, UMD 21 | Greater Dragonmark of Making (Fabricate 1/day) | --
    19th | Cloistered Cleric 14 |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +13
    | Conc: 22, Craft (Sculpt) 22, Know (Pl) 14, Know (Rel) 15, Know (Dun) 15, Know (Local) 14, Know (Nature) 14, Spellcraft 22, UMD 22 | -- | --
    20th | Cloistered Cleric 15 |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +13
    | Conc: 23, Craft (Sculpt) 23, Know (Pl) 15, Know (Rel) 16, Know (Dun) 16, Know (Local) 15, Know (Nature) 15, Spellcraft 23, UMD 23 | -- | -- [/table]


    Key characteristics:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Point Buy, Str 8, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 14
    Level up order - 4) Int; 8) Int; 12) Wis; 16) Wis; 20) Con
    Aged to "Middle Aged" at Level 7, to "Old" at 14: Str 5, Dex 7, Con 10, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 16
    With level up and aging: achieves Int 18 at level 7, Int 20 at level 14; Wis 18 at level 12; Wis 20 at level 16



    Casting abilities:

    Infusions per day (constant after level 5) - Includes bonus for high intelligence at level 20, but without items
    Spoiler
    Show
    {table=head] Level |1st Level|2nd Level|3rd Level
    1st | 3 | -- | --
    2nd | 4 | -- | --
    3rd | 4 | 2 | --
    4th | 4 | 3 | --
    5th | 4 | 4 | 2
    20th | 5 | 4 | 2 [/table]


    Cleric spells per day (starts at level 6) - Includes level-up bonuses for high wisdom at each level, but without items
    Spoiler
    Show
    {table=head] Level |0 Lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th
    6th | 3 | 2+1 | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | --
    7th | 4 | 3+1 | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | --
    8th | 4 | 3+1 | 2+1 | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | --
    9th | 5 | 4+1 | 3+1 | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | --
    10th | 5 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | -- | -- | -- | -- | --
    11th | 5 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | -- | -- | -- | -- | --
    12th | 6 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | -- | -- | -- | --
    13th | 6 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | -- | -- | -- | --
    14th | 6 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 1+1 | -- | -- | --
    15th | 6 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 2+1 | -- | -- | --
    16th | 6 | 7+1 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 1+1 | -- | --
    17th | 6 | 7+1 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 2+1 | -- | --
    18th | 6 | 7+1 | 6+1 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 2+1 | 1+1 | --
    19th | 6 | 7+1 | 6+1 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | --
    20th | 6 | 7+1 | 6+1 | 6+1 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 3+1 | 2+1 | 1+1 [/table]



    Explanation and sources:

    Spoiler
    Show
    I decided to go a completely different direction with this entry. Zinc Saucier is based off of Bender's off-hand comment from Futurama. I decided a construct-based minion-mancer would pay homage to both Zinc Saucier itself as well as its origins in robots (aka constructs). By taking cleric from level 6 on, Carol obtains the ability to rebuke constructs, eventually gaining the ability to command 7 HD constructs (this may or may not be boosted by magic items that boost turning/rebuking). The daily abilities of the True Necromancer are replicated via scrolls/items, which she is generally able to UMD (and also create). Constructs and other magical items are created primarily via retain essence: Carol is able to retain essence from at least 50% of magical items found during her adventures just from the bonus item creation feats from 5 levels of artificer. Carol gets a lot of bonuses in combat via knowledge devotion, and has the skills to back them up. Carol can reinforce her constructs via her infusions as well as her domain spells, and gains 8th level casting via cleric (why is there no theurge for artificer!).

    Carol is able to repair constructs and warforged creatures via both craft construct feat and her craft skill (maxed to repair constructs), and her dragonmarks. (See MM1 and ECS). The time devoted to this is quartered via Cannith Forgecraft, especially if you rule that her dedicated wright can do it for her. She can animate objects starting late in her career (Level 16 to create construct creatures [via animate object - why so late!!!!!!!! Necromancers can do it sooner, and for permanent!] for combat), in addition to the homonculi she has had around for a while.

    Don't forget effigy creatures from Complete Arcane (p151 or so). However, despite the fact they can replicate almost any creature, they take a really long time to make, by crafting rules. I mean years. Hopefully the dedicated wright(s) can make them, combined with aid another, divine insight, wieldskill (via UMD), etc, much faster.

    Here are the sources:

    Artificer, dragonmarks, Artisan feats (Eberron Campaign Setting)
    Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion)
    Cannith Forgecraft (Dragonmarked [Eberron])
    Wargorged Domain (Faiths of Eberron)
    Improved Homonculus (Magic of Eberron)
    Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane)



    Who Carol Really Is:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Carol is inspired and based off of Mom (from Futurama).



    Last edited by mattie_p; 2013-03-31 at 05:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    That is all 4 - please proceed to discuss. I am prepared to openly discuss my entry - as it doesn't count. For those that do count - please do not openly post questions or comments regarding your builds, or anything that might identify your build. Send me a PM, and I will adjudicate as necessary.

    Not that any of them count
    Last edited by mattie_p; 2013-03-31 at 05:11 PM.
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    Chairman Emeritus of Zinc Saucier. It is just like Iron Chef but comes with double the prize money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Those all look really cool.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Sauciers, if I somehow missed something, please send me a PM and make a correction. If a judge says something you disagree with, again, send me a PM, rather than openly dispute with the judge. I will moderate.
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    Chairman Emeritus of Zinc Saucier. It is just like Iron Chef but comes with double the prize money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Hey mattie_p, can we get a ruling on Zone of Desecration? As listed, it doesn't say it gives you anything, and even assuming it does give you an aura with Desecrate's effects, it doesn't give a duration. Should it be permanent?
    Last edited by rockdeworld; 2013-04-01 at 10:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Eh, I was just going to submit a Dread Necromancer20 build. Arcane Disciple for the Evil domain to pick up Desecrate and also Blasphemy while he is at it. Optional cheese for Alternate Spell Source/Southern Magician to enable DMM shenanigans.

    Boring, yea, but hey... at least it doesn't have any dips!

    The other option was Samurai10/UrPriest 10 as a 'gish' build :P
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2013-04-01 at 10:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Zone of Desecration (Su): At 4th level, a true necromancer begins to exert her authority over undead. This aura is identical to the effects of the desecrate spell (see page 218 of the Player’s Handbook) except that it affects only allied undead.
    OK, ruling time.

    I'll take this straight from the Supernatural Abilities from the SRD:

    Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities.
    So standard action to activate, duration as per the desecrate spell (2 hours per level, using True Necromancer level as the level for the desecration zone), no daily limit so at will, multiple uses overlap (not stack), and centered on self. Did I miss anything?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Eh, I was just going to submit a Dread Necromancer20 build. Arcane Disciple for the Evil domain to pick up Desecrate and also Blasphemy while he is at it. Optional cheese for Alternate Spell Source/Southern Magician to enable DMM shenanigans.

    Boring, yea, but hey... at least it doesn't have any dips!

    The other option was Samurai10/UrPriest 10 as a 'gish' build :P
    Aww, Shneekey, you should have submitted one of them. I looked at Ur-priest for my psuedo-submission (including as a theurge), but decided to stick with the classics. Especially because I decided to go in a completely different direction. I did, however, look at bloodlines, Effigy Master (Complete Arcane), and Techsmith (FR- Faiths and Pantheons).
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    Chairman Emeritus of Zinc Saucier. It is just like Iron Chef but comes with double the prize money.

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    Eglath - 2nd Place Iron Chef XXXII

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    Aww, Shneekey, you should have submitted one of them. I looked at Ur-priest for my psuedo-submission (including as a theurge), but decided to stick with the classics. Especially because I decided to go in a completely different direction. I did, however, look at bloodlines, Effigy Master (Complete Arcane), and Techsmith (FR- Faiths and Pantheons).
    Eh, the gish build was basically a fear lockdown build with UrPriest casting tacked on. Nothing too original here. Maybe UrPriest/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple. Grab The Dead Walks as the lesser invocation.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    OK, ruling time.

    I'll take this straight from the Supernatural Abilities from the SRD:

    So standard action to activate, duration as per the desecrate spell (2 hours per level, using True Necromancer level as the level for the desecration zone), no daily limit so at will, multiple uses overlap (not stack), and centered on self. Did I miss anything?
    Thanks mattie! And while I'm at it, thanks for letting me use a different criteria than the OP.

    I'm almost done with the first one.

    Edit: 1 down, 3 to go

    Marcos, what source did you use for Shadow Adept? I see several special abilities on your list that don't appear in the class description in PGtF.
    Last edited by rockdeworld; 2013-04-02 at 12:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    First 3 done, Mattie I'll get yours later today.

    Note for all: Just to be clear, when I say "[x] levels late/early," I compare to the hypothetical Wiz 3/Cleric 3/TN 14.

    Elzar
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    Innovation: 2.75
    Mystic Theurge was obvious for this competition, but using it to dual-advance a single class (I assume that's what you're doing, even though you didn't say it) was not (+0.25). Horned Harbinger on top makes this build original (+0.5)
    Unfortunately, Sha'ir->MT is not-very-well-known-but-still-known cheese (-0.25). DMM Persist is an overused optimization suggestion (-0.75).

    Power: 3.5
    You advance spellcasting faster than a TN. I approve of the cheesy Mystic Theurge trick, but you let your CL fall behind your character level.
    Sha'ir requires good Diplomacy and Spellcraft checks to get full use out of their spellcasting, but MT and HH don't have Diplomacy as a class skill, and I don't see you putting points into Spellcraft, so your casting is very limited (especially if you want to qualify for HH, see Elegance below). Further, you didn't provide a spells known list, so I can't give you a good grade based on spells chosen. I'd say you can do 1 of the roles of a mildly-optimized theurge (3).
    You can control a bunch of undead, but because of your low effective Cleric level, they're all pretty weak. Of course, you have DMM Persistent Spell and can use it twice a day, which is good even without 9th level spells (+0.5).

    Elegance: 1
    Rules violations: You don't have the knowledge:the planes ranks to qualify for Horned Harbinger and can't get it without throwing away Diplomacy, which wrecks your build (-2). The Necropolitan template uses more than your level 3 WBL at 3000gp (-1), which doubles as overreliance on expensive WBL options because you only have 8 Con without it (-1).
    Entry doesn't require multiclassing penalties to be ignored (+0.5).
    No backstory, including how you worship Myrkul in Halruaa or Nimbral, but worshipper of the god of death who goes into his god's PrC is pretty clear-cut, so wash (0).

    Faking the Secret Ingredient: 3.25
    Rebuke undead - check, 1 level early, gain more undead but of lower HD
    Create undead 2/day - 1/day, approx. 5 levels late
    Necromantic prowess (+4) - CL 17 less than TN's pseudo-CL19
    Zone of destruction - none
    Major destruction - none
    Create greater undead 2/day - 1/day, approx. 2 levels late
    Horrid wilting - can cast it, approx. 1 level late
    Energy drain - none
    Wail of the banshee - none
    Entry has the same or better chassis (HD/BAB/saves) as the SI (+0.5)
    Entry misses out on many of the SI's class abilities or has sub-par replacements aside from Rebuke Undead. Also, you get 8th level spells from the Cleric and Wizard lists, but the SI gets two 9th level spells from its SLAs (-0.5).
    Entry has at least 15th level Sha'ir spellcasting, which is equivalent to wizard but lacks spells on the cleric side (+0.25).
    Spellcasting gained on the same level or earlier, same can't be said for class abilities so this is a wash (0).

    Total: 9


    Marcos
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    Innovation: 3
    Death Knight Archivist is definitely a new one, and by extension so is Undead Followers + Necromantic Presence (+1).
    Archivists casting wizard spells is known cheese (-1).

    Power: 4.25
    With arcane and divine spells, you've got all the roles covered (4). However, your Death Knight LA means that after level 6 your CL is always 5 behind your character level (-0.25). So your CL is worse than a mystic theurge, but the same as the SI on every level except 11. Then you add on Shield of Shadows, Shadow Double, Cloudy Conjuration + Shadow Feats, a few Undead followers buffed with Turn Resistance, and Death Knight's improved defenses, plus Dark Knowledge with several knowledge skills doesn't hurt (+0.5).

    Elegance: 5
    Rules violations: You can't use Fell Animate to qualify for Shadow Adept and take Shadow Adept on the same level (-1), but you can replace SF:Necromancy with it. Also, it looks like you used the FRCS version of Shadow Weave Magic and Shadow Adept when they've both been updated in PGtF (-0.25).
    Class progression is particularly natural (+0.5).
    Does not require multiclassing penalties to be ignored (+0.5).
    Backstory accounts for base class and template choices, but says nothing about Shadow Adept, so wash (0). On a side note, refluffing Death Knight as a curse combined with knowledge (presumably of its abilities) so that it could be applied to an Archivist was an interesting change.
    Build seems like it would appear natural, not abominably min-maxed, to a fairly new player (+1).

    Faking the Secret Ingredient: 2.75
    Rebuke undead - worse, Undead Followers
    Create undead 2/day - check, can cast it
    Necromantic prowess (+4) - worse, Spell Focus: Necromancy with regular CL15
    Zone of destruction - similar, can cast Desecrate and has Necromantic Presence
    Major destruction - none
    Create greater undead 2/day - check, can cast it
    Horrid wilting - check, can cast it
    Energy drain - none
    Wail of the banshee - none
    Entry has worse chassis than the SI (-0.5).
    Entry has 3/9 of the class abilities (not including spellcasting) as the SI, one similar, the rest missing or worse. Also, the SI gets two 9th level spells with its SLAs, but you only have 8th level (-0.25).
    Entry has 15th level wizard and cleric spellcasting from archivist spellcasting (+0.5).
    Abilities are gained later than the SI (-0.5)

    Total: 15


    Lady Vysarji
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    Innovation: 3.75
    Persistent BSoM Desecrate is a unique mechanical trick, even if the other feats are not (+1).
    Fell Drain + BLoM and Charnel Touch + TTS are known cheese, and while Death Master + Dread Necro + Ultimate Magus is original, Fell Animate comes out of Necromancer handbooks, but I missed them all before, so I'll only drop this halfway (-0.25).

    Power: 3.5
    Build fills one role of a mildly-optimized theurge with plenty of debuffing and BFC, and some utility spells. On top of that, if your DM allows you to Tomb Tainted Soul and Charnel Touch together then you have infinite self-healing, Master of Death is a neat ability for a campaign with undead, and you can do some neat things with Black Lore of Moil and Fell Drain, plus the situationally-useful Augment Casting (+0.5). Unfortunately you don't have DMM, so your use of Persistent Spell is limited, and I don't know why you have Maximize Spell or Arcane Defense (0).

    Elegance: 5
    Does not require multiclassing penalties to be ignored (+0.5)
    Build seems like it would appear natural, not abominably min-maxed, to a fairly new player (+0.5).
    On a side note: this character (particularly the picture) reminds me of Kitiara Uth Matar, although I only vaguely recall anything about her.

    Faking the Secret Ingredient: 2.75
    Rebuke undead - check, but only 10th level
    Create undead 2/day - check, 4 levels late on first, 2 levels late on second
    Necromantic prowess (+4) - better, Arcane Spell Power + GSF Necromancy for CL21 Necromancy spells
    Zone of destruction - similar, Moilian Persistent Desecrate, but it uses your 8th level slot
    Major destruction - none
    Create greater undead 2/day - worse, cast it 1/day, 6 levels late, and must expend your only 8th level slot to do it
    Horrid wilting - none
    Energy drain - none
    Wail of the banshee - none
    Entry has comparable chassis to the SI (+0.25).
    Entry has 4.5/9 of the SI's class abilities (0).
    Entry has 15th level Death Master and 12th level Dread Necro spellcasting, which covers some but not close to all of each spell list (-0.25).
    Some abilities gained earlier than the SI, some later, some not at all (-0.25).

    Total: 15


    Carol
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    Innovation: 4.5
    Cannith Forgecraft with ranks in craft is a good and unique hordeficer trick (+1)
    While a 1 level dip in Cleric is recommended for an Artificer, a 15 level dip is certainly not, and the same for a dip in Artificer for cleric, so entry avoids known cheese on its build (+1). However, two feats, Improved Construct and Craft Construct, come out of the hordeficer section of the artificer handbook, so a small deduction (-0.5).
    On a side note, I love the Mom reference in your backstory.

    Power: 3
    As an artificer, you can theoretically fill both roles of a mildly-optimized theurge at low levels (4), and the build is T1 to that point. However, then you drop in cloistered cleric levels with a different CL and it takes awhile to build back up to that point. On the good side, those levels give you spells to heal your constructs with, so that you pull off dedicated hordeficer reasonably well (0). The only problem is that this means at high levels you really a theurge so much as a minionmancer who can dish out some good support spells (-1).

    Elegance: 4.25
    A hordeficer is cash intensive, so reliance on WBL is part of the game (-0.5).
    Class progression is particularly natural (+0.5).
    Does not require multiclassing penalties to be ignored (+0.5).
    Backstory accounts for Artificer, but not cleric choice (0).
    Advancing two age categories within 20 levels is definitely not part of normal D&D play, so a small deduction for that (-0.25).

    Faking the Secret Ingredient: 3.25
    Rebuke undead - check, up to level 15, with Rebuke Construct also
    Create undead 2/day - check, can cast it 8 levels late, but can probably UMD it too
    Necromantic prowess (+4) - similar, practiced spellcaster for CL19 cleric casting, earlier
    Zone of destruction - slightly worse, can cast Desecrate 2 levels earlier
    Major destruction - none
    Create greater undead 2/day - worse, can cast 1/day but uses up level 8 slot, 4 levels late, but can probably UMD it
    Horrid wilting - none, but can probably UMD it
    Energy drain - none, but can probably UMD it
    Wail of the banshee - none, but can probably UMD it
    Entry has the same chassis with better Fort save (+0.5).
    Entry has 4.5/9 (8/9 with UMD) of the SI's class abilities (+0.25).
    Entry has 15th level cleric spellcasting, only 7th level wizard from artificer crafting (0).
    One ability gained earlier than the SI, most later or not at all (-0.5).

    Total: 15


    Edit: I promise I didn't try to give 3 builds a 15.
    Last edited by rockdeworld; 2013-04-03 at 10:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Rockdeworld, thanks. As always, if a saucier has some clarification they need to post as a result of the judging, please PM me, and I will post with your build name.
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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Point of order about Lady Vysarji's Innovation score...

    Both Black Lore of Moil + Fell Drain (the first to deal damage so the second lands on any necromancy spell) and Charnel Touch + Tomb-Tainted/Necropolitian (infinite out of combat healing trick) are well known optimization tricks and are in the Dread Necromancer's handbook that I wrote, in addition to the one that came before it.
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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Point of order about Lady Vysarji's Innovation score...

    Both Black Lore of Moil + Fell Drain (the first to deal damage so the second lands on any necromancy spell) and Charnel Touch + Tomb-Tainted/Necropolitian (infinite out of combat healing trick) are well known optimization tricks and are in the Dread Necromancer's handbook that I wrote, in addition to the one that came before it.
    Rockdeworld, ShneekyTheLost was not a competitor in this competition, so feel free to respond directly if you wish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Point of order about Lady Vysarji's Innovation score...

    Both Black Lore of Moil + Fell Drain (the first to deal damage so the second lands on any necromancy spell) and Charnel Touch + Tomb-Tainted/Necropolitian (infinite out of combat healing trick) are well known optimization tricks and are in the Dread Necromancer's handbook that I wrote, in addition to the one that came before it.
    That's true in part. Originality/Innovation is probably my weakest area (that or Power), because I don't have a ton of experience, and I only skimmed the handbook while checking. I don't see BLoM (you suggest Kelgore's Grave Mist instead), but the other one is there unnamed in yours and definitely in the old one. OTOH, I'm not sure I should deduct points retroactively, so I've only half-edited Lady Vysarji's innovation score.

    I've also finished Carol's entry and edited it into my previous post.

    Good job sauciers. It's my honor to be a judge in this competition.

    I admit I'm a little surprised that no one went for 9th level spells; Energy Drain and Wail of the Banshee were the two abilities that almost everyone missed.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    I received a note from Lady Vysarji.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Vysarji
    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post

    Lady Vysarji

    I haven't seen Fell Drain + Black Lore of Moil in a handbook, but it should be. Ditto for Tomb-Tainted Soul + Charnel Touch, even if Necropolitan is the more common suggestion (+1).
    Entry mostly avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions, Death Master + Dread Necro + Ultimate Magus is original, but Fell Animate and Fell Drain both come out of Necromancer handbooks (+0.5).
    It is true that I have read Shneeky's handbook for inspiration. My reason for Tomb-Tainted Soul was because I did not want to go the necropolitan route. I have not seen any uses of Death Master for optimization before though. (Thank you Dragon Compendium!)

    Unfortunately you don't have DMM, so your use of Persistent Spell is limited, and I don't know why you have Maximize Spell or Arcane Defense (0).
    I chose Arcane Defense because of a misread of the necromantic prowess ability since I thought the necromantic prowess also affected necromancy spells cast at the character too. Arcane Defense was supposed to emulate that. Maximize was because I knew Persistent would be limited.

    On a side note: this character (particularly the picture) reminds me of Kitiara Uth Matar, although I only vaguely recall anything about her.
    This character I have never heard of, where is she from? For the picture I googled "women with scythes" and that was the one I liked the best.

    Thank you,
    EDIT: on a side note - we will need another judge to break the tie. If you plan to judge, please do not read rockdeworld's spoilers, simply post your own criteria and judge accordingly.
    Last edited by mattie_p; 2013-04-03 at 10:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Holy three way tie Batman!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dysprosium View Post
    Holy three way tie Batman!
    Technically a two-way tie. Carol doesn't count. I thought about simply submitting it but decided it wouldn't be fair.

    Incidentally, also surprised no one went for a necrocarnum zombie. Maybe if there had been another entry or two.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Kitiara Uth Matar's from a Dragonlance book, and by the end she's some kind of lord with an undead companion, who I imagine looking just like Lady Vysarji's picture

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    rockdeworld, In my capacity as Chairman I was just reviewing your judging and I noticed a discrepancy which may break your tie.

    In your judging of Marcos, you gave the competitor an elegance score of 5. Based solely on your scoring entry you award the following bonuses and assess the following penalties:

    4 - 1 - 0.25 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 1 = 4.75

    Then, in Faking: 3 - 0.5 - 0.25 + 0.5 - 0.5 = 2.25

    Total score (based solely on your assessed stuff) should be 3 + 4.25 + 4.75 + 2.25 = 14.25

    Am I missing something, did you neglect to include some judging, or did your incorrectly sum your judging of Marcos? Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    rockdeworld, In my capacity as Chairman I was just reviewing your judging and I noticed a discrepancy which may break your tie.

    In your judging of Marcos, you gave the competitor an elegance score of 5. Based solely on your scoring entry you award the following bonuses and assess the following penalties:

    4 - 1 - 0.25 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 1 = 4.75

    Then, in Faking: 3 - 0.5 - 0.25 + 0.5 - 0.5 = 2.25

    Total score (based solely on your assessed stuff) should be 3 + 4.25 + 4.75 + 2.25 = 14.25

    Am I missing something, did you neglect to include some judging, or did your incorrectly sum your judging of Marcos? Thanks
    You're right, I messed up the math, and what you've posted is correct. Sorry about that everyone.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    So do we have another potential judge? I'd like to give anyone the chance to do so if they wish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    Bumping to see if there is another judge. Also, I have been giving some thought to the next secret ingredient. I have it narrowed down. As a hint, no spellcasting required.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Zinc Saucier XII: Back from the dead to haunt you

    As I have looked into the spoilers, I am disqualified from being a judge.

    I think the reason no one went Necrocarnum is that it is very difficult to duplicate all the other things a TN does (namely: casting) as a Necrocarnum. I mean, granted, they're actually not too bad, power wise (since they can easily cap out their essentia), but not even remotely close to a TN.
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