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    Default A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    THE MAGE

    Alignment: Any
    Hit Die: d6

    Class Skills:
    Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Intimidate, Knowledge (All skills, taken individually), Profession Spellcraft.
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) × 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

    The Mage
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
    Spell Level

    1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Bonus Feat|
    1

    2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Bonus Feat|
    1

    3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Lore +1|
    2

    4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Bonus Feat|
    2

    5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Lore +2|
    3

    6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Bonus Feat|
    3

    7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Lore +3|
    4

    8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|Bonus Feat|
    4

    9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|Lore +4|
    5

    10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Bonus Feat|
    5

    11th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Lore +5|
    6

    12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|Bonus Feat|
    6

    13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|Lore +6|
    7

    14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+9|Bonus Feat|
    7

    15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+9|Lore +7|
    8

    16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|Bonus Feat|
    8

    17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|Lore +8|
    9

    18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Bonus Feat|
    9

    19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Lore +9|
    10

    20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Bonus Feat|
    10

    [/table]

    Class Features:

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A mage gains proficiencies with simple weapons but with no forms of armor or with shields.

    Spell Level: While incapable of casting actual spells, you possess a certain amount of magical power you can use to accomplish other tricks. You are treated as possessing an arcane spell prepared of the listed spell level at all times, though this spell can never truly be cast. You never risk losing this spell when returning from the dead, negative levels don't decrease its level or rob you of this spell, and the spell may not be stolen or expended by any means (even voluntarily).

    and you may not be denied this spell through any means. This spell possesses all schools, subschools, and descriptors and from all domains and you utilize your Intelligence bonus to determine its save DC.

    You possess a caster level equal to your level in mage. Finally, reserve feats you possess function regardless of the spell level of your prepared spell (acidic splatter will still function and deal 1d6 damage at 1st level even though you lack a 2nd level or higher spell, for example).

    Bonus Feats: At 1st level, you gain Acidic Splatter, Clap of Thunder, Fiery Burst, Invisible Needle, Storm Bolt, or Winter’s Blast (complete mage) as a bonus feat, ignoring all normal prerequisites. With one hour of study, you may switch which of these feats you have access to.

    At 2nd level, you may select either Sunlight Eyes, Shadow Veil, Clutch of Earth, or Hurricane breath as a bonus feat, ignoring its normal prerequisites. With one hour of study, you may switch which of these feats you have access to.

    At each even level thereafter, you gain a bonus Reserve feat of your choice so long as you meet all prerequisites for that feat. These feats may not be exchanged.

    Lore: As a Mage, you pick up a decent amount of lore. At 3rd level, you gain a +1 bonus to all Knowledge checks. This bonus increases by +1 at each odd level thereafter, up to a maximum of +9 at 19th level.

    Before you guys say anything, this isn't really a serious attempt at fixing wizards or anything like that. It was more of a mental exercise to see something I haven't seen before. When most people think of magic as superior to everything else, they either take out the worst spells or try to pump up the noncasters. This was my attempt to do something else, to quite literally lower the wizard to the level of the fighter, to the point where they are practically interchangeable. If you want lower magic in your game or want to ensure balance between casters and non-casters, here you go. This thing is very simple and the odd thing is that it probably mostly works. Good luck convincing others to actually play it, though.
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2013-03-17 at 03:55 PM.
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    So... you cobbled together a warlock out of reserve feats?
    If I creep into your house in the dead of night and strangle you while you sleep, you probably messed up your grammar.

    I'm always extremely careful to hedge myself against absolute statements.

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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    An interesting take. I'm going to see if I can break it.

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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Nope. It's weaker than the Warlock.

    The aim of this class was literally to make a spellcaster that plays nicely with an unoptimized PHB Fighter. It still gets some nice tricks (flying, large elementals, water breathing, healing, temp hp, teleportation) but they are so reigned in and manageable that everything looks pretty good (especially as the mage can't muster more damage than a 10d6 blast).
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2013-03-16 at 05:44 PM.
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Eeeeh. It's rather boring, isn't it? I mean, it doesn't get anything at all ever other level. You might at least give it cantrips or something. Detect and Read magic. Something to fill all those dead levels.
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Eeeeh. It's rather boring, isn't it? I mean, it doesn't get anything at all ever other level. You might at least give it cantrips or something. Detect and Read magic. Something to fill all those dead levels.
    If it's supposed to be the magical equivalent of the fighter, then a mess of dead levels is appropriate.

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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Yeah I see that. Not a thing you should aim for though, in my opinion.
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Yeah I see that. Not a thing you should aim for though, in my opinion.
    Not as a practical class, no, but as a thought experiment, it's interesting to see.

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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Actually, there aren't any real dead levels. At each "dead level", the spell level goes up, making all of your pre-existing reserve feats more powerful as that's what they're powered by. It's just an alternation between new abilities and more powerful abilities.

    And yeah, I never said anything about this being a desirable place to be. It was mostly a thought experiment to make a "balanced caster". It may work for some people looking for weaker balance core or who want a low magic game but that's more of a bonus than anything else.

    As no reserve feats require each other as prerequisites or actually serve as the prerequisites for anything at all (I'm pretty sure), I don't think this class can be broken. The closest I am getting would be this thing gestalted with a real spellcaster for all of the CL boosts but there are far better options.
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    A question:

    Does your effective spell level allow you to get into caster PrCs?

    Because if so, there are a few shenanigans that can be performed...
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Oooh! Where?
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Well, there are a few PrCs that require spellcasting, but don't advance it.

    So this would let you get in to them without having the spellcasting!

    I do also remember that there were a pair of Reserve-feat PrCs somewhere on these boards, that would increase the power level of this marginally...
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    I'm not sure if I would consider that to be "shenanigans". It saves you from the pain of lost CLs, sure, but that's only because you lack CL to begin with so it's not a particularly good thing. I wasn't trying to say "worst class ever. No PrCs for you" but to make a class around the same power level as the fighter... which has boatloads of PrCs.
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    I actually kind of really like this. I've been looking through the list of reserve feats, and they actually cover a lot of terrain. This class actually starts looking quite nice in a low-power game.

    Though it departs from the "as the fighter" format, I think that if you bumped the HD up to maybe 1d6 and filled in the dead levels with free Knowledge Focus type effects (like the Truenamer gets-- +3 to any Knowledge skill, stacks with itself) it starts looking pretty nice. Bolt on the Archivist's Dark Knowledge instead/in addition to the aforementioned Knowledge Focus, and this starts looking like a really nice low-power, cast-all-day mage class, like the Warlock.

    Let's put it like this: I can totally see putting this in a lower-tier/low-magic game. He's the wizard, warlock is the sorcerer, and the other non-magic T4 classes are, well, the other class options.

    So... well done on excellent fast balanced class building?
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2013-03-16 at 10:02 PM.
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Well, I was hesitant to throw up huge bonuses (and dark knowledge seemed odd as it would be the most limited aspect of the class with its uses per day) but to make the "dead levels" feel less dead, I through in a lesser lore ability. Still pretty awesome with knowledge devotion but not too capable of giving big bonuses in a hurry (it totals out to a little less than PF Bardic knowledge).

    Edit: Also upped the HD to a d6 (d4 is a bit overkill for just about anything)
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2013-03-16 at 11:36 PM.
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    If we're only talking about reserve feats, then what is spell level 10 (or even 9 for that matter) ?

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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Most Reserve Feats scale based off of the highest spell level you have prepped of the right type, so...
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    What Amechra said. Having spell level 10 makes your attack feats deal 10 dice of damage and such as all of your reserve feats are keyed to spell level.
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Right. I forgot that one.

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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    You should state whether it's divine or arcane "casting", 'cause right now it's neither.

    It would be fun to use this for PrCs.

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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    It has now been defined as an arcane caster.
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Other things:
    • Precocious Apprentice and Extra Spell seem to work with this, as a way to give the mage real spells for PrC entries and maybe even a little real casting. Not sure if that's bad, since charop is fun, but it's not quite covered by the rules.
    • It wants magic missile... is there a magic missile reserve feat?
    • You may never be denied your spellcasting by any means, but can you lose spell level access (say, though negative levels?). Right now it seems that you could be a level 8 mage tossing around 4d6 damage fireballs even if you have 5-6 negative levels.
    • The last sentence of the "Spell Level" class feature is awkward. Are you saying that mages can't be denied access to their feats regardless of level loss or that you can prepare multiple reserve feats even if they shouldn't be compatible? I'm not sure.
    • This class is pretty crappy at low levels
    • EDIT: My immediate desire is to make a divine healbot version of this. Do you have any ideas floating around on the same topic?
    • EDIT: ONE MORE THING! A lot of the reserve feats have a clause in the benefit along the lines of "as long as you have an [X] spell of [Y] level, you can do [Z]. This means that even if you ignore feat prerequisites, level 1-2 mages still can't use feats like acidic splatter.
    • EDIT: (This is the last time I swear) There is a magic missile feat, it's called Invisible Needle, and it's total crap because it has a range of 5' per spell level, requires a ranged (not touch) attack, and only deals 1d4/spell level. If you have something at the bottom that buffs it or replaces it, you could get the iconic missile-ing mage.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2013-03-17 at 03:32 PM.

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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Another thing; they should be able to sacrifice their "prepared" spell for a round or two to use feats that require that you sacrifice spell-slots.

    Because that would nice.
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Other things:
    You may never be denied your spellcasting by any means, but can you lose spell level access (say, though negative levels?). Right now it seems that you could be a level 8 mage tossing around 4d6 damage fireballs even if you have 5-6 negative levels.
    Nope. A spellthief may not steal your spell, negative levels neither reduce your spell level nor take your spell, coming back from the dead never takes your spell, you may not expend your spell, etc. The spell stays with you. Forever. Period. Updated the class feature to make this more clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    The last sentence of the "Spell Level" class feature is awkward. Are you saying that mages can't be denied access to their feats regardless of level loss or that you can prepare multiple reserve feats even if they shouldn't be compatible? I'm not sure.
    EDIT: ONE MORE THING! A lot of the reserve feats have a clause in the benefit along the lines of "as long as you have an [X] spell of [Y] level, you can do [Z]. This means that even if you ignore feat prerequisites, level 1-2 mages still can't use feats like acidic splatter.
    The purpose of the last sentence is to specifically let feats function even if you lack a spell level high enough (so YES to acid splatter at 1st level, for example). Again, an example has been given in the class above to make it more clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    This class is pretty crappy at low levels
    Well, it's the magical fighter class. It has a bit more survivability now with a d6 HD but yeah, it doesn't really do much at 1st level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    EDIT: My immediate desire is to make a divine healbot version of this. Do you have any ideas floating around on the same topic?
    There are two reserve feats in Complete Champion specifically for this purpose (one to heal you up to half hp and the other to temporarily patch ability damage/drain). I originally thought about making them options at 2nd level before I realized that they would be the best options by a huge margin and that everyone would be mad not to use them all of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    EDIT: (This is the last time I swear) There is a magic missile feat, it's called Invisible Needle, and it's total crap because it has a range of 5' per spell level, requires a ranged (not touch) attack, and only deals 1d4/spell level. If you have something at the bottom that buffs it or replaces it, you could get the iconic missile-ing mage.[/list]
    Invisible needle is now available at 1st level (was unaware of how horrible it really was until now).

    Amechra: I don't see any sane way to utilize that idea as expending the spell would turn off all of your feats and letting you expend it at will would lead to abuse, which would be the exact opposite purpose of why this class was created.
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    What about letting them power one of those feats X times per encounter or something?

    I don't see how Arcane Strike is very broken.

    Also, may I direct you to this? I like 'em; your millage may vary.
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Ah, those clear up a lot of things, thanks. What are you thoughts on Precocious Apprentice / Extra Spell?

    I was writing the "this class is pretty crappy" thing when I was looking at invisible needle. Going back over the other reserve feats, this class is actually not bad at low levels because they have fixed ranges (15' cone, 20' line, 30' placement for a burst). It seems like it could end up weaker than an optimized fighter simply due to lacking options. I think a few brewed feats interacting with the [reserve] series would work.

    Also, buff to needle?

    Generic questions:
    • How does this interact with spell focus or ability focus?
    • Any hypotheticals on how well this class follows an optimized fighter build? At high levels fighters start using tactical feats, and I think this class might fall behind.
    • Does anybody know some compilations of homebrew reserve feats? Preferably weak-ish ones like in CMage.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2013-03-17 at 10:17 PM.

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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Amechra: I have a feeling that there are sources out there requiring spent feat slots far more dangerous than arcane strike, even if I can't name any at the moment. Seems like the type of thing that has to exist.

    Just To Browse: I'm probably not going to personally fix invisible needle but if you really want more options for reserve feats (and don't care too much about balance)...
    here are some (likely hilariously broken) reserve feats (including a far better ranged force attack feat).
    here are some homebrew feats that are a bit better on the whole
    here are 4 or 5 more (in the second post).
    here and here are a couple of reserve feat based PrCs.

    As far as hypothetical builds, I'm not sure. I think that fighter wins for raw damage but this class definitely has the ability to get a bit of versatility over a raw fighter.
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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    An interesting take. I'm going to see if I can break it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    If it's supposed to be the magical equivalent of the fighter, then a mess of dead levels is appropriate.

    I like your style...

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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)


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    Default Re: A Truly Balanced Mage Class (3.5)

    I already linked him to it, Prime. Though it is nice to see you around here.
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