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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Throw Creature [3.5 Special Attack]

    Came across a problem the other day. If a player casts "Enlarge Person" on themselves, then decides they want to toss that annoying Kobold across the room, what happens exactly? Besides the airborn reptilian of course...

    What Exists
    Surprisingly little. All I could find were "Fling Enemy" and "Fling Ally" in the "Races of Stone" rulebook. In addition to costing a feat each, they have the prerequisite of another feat, "Rock Hurling", plus 19 strength and a Large size. Seems pretty wasteful and narrow for something that should require nothing more than basic motor skills.

    Proposed Fix
    A new special attack called "Throw Creature". Like "Trip" or "Bull Rush", any creature can do it, but only certain builds will be able to use it to their maximum potential.

    Short Version

    Long Version
    Spoiler
    Show

    In D&D we want to keep the math as simple as possible (I have no interest in "Excel"ling the game more than it already is). So let's make it a simple function of strength and grid distance. Large, Huge, etc. sized creatures already get a bonus to weight lifting, so there's no need to factor that in.

    Using "Throw Creature"

    There are two kinds situations where you would want to throw a creature: you are either throwing an unwilling enemy for damage, or flinging a willing ally as part of some strategy. The different cases will be explained, but both follow the same basic pattern.

    Step 1 - Preparing to Throw
    Grapple with the unwilling target creature. If you can maintain the grapple move on to step two. If throwing an willing target you can skip this step.

    Step Two - Lift Over Head
    Check your "Lift Over Head" stat. If it is greater than or equal to the weight of the living caber you may make another grapple check with the target. Winning that grapple means you lift the creature above your head. If you are dealing with a willing target you do not have to do a grapple check.

    No matter whether it is a willing or unwilling target (i.e. grapple or no grapple) this takes a single move action, as opposed to the standard action a grapple normally needs.

    Lifting the creature above your head provokes an attack of opportunity from anyone within reach (but not the creature being lifted). You lose your dexterity bonus, shield bonus, may not make an attack that is not a throw (including grappling damage), and your land speed is reduced by 5ft.

    If you are hit while raising the target above your head you must beat a concentration check (10 + damage dealt) or drop the target creature prone in your own square.

    Aside: One or Two-Handed? If you are two size categories greater than the target creature, you may lift them with just one hand and only provoke Attacks of Opportunity from creatures that can reach the side you threw with. In addition, you may use your non-grappling hand to attack or shield as normal. If you are less than two sizes larger you must lift with both hands and the above penalties apply.

    Step 3 - Le Chuck
    As a standard action, throw the creature you are holding.

    To discover how far you may throw, subtract the target's weight from your "Lift Over Head". For every 100lbs remaining you can throw them an additional 5 feet. This is a mostly horizontal throw. If you want, you may throw 1/2 this distance or less to throw 1/2 the maximum distance vertically. Either way, deal damage as if the maximum distance was thrown (speed of impact and all that)

    For the target, make a thrown weapon attack against what you want to hit (treat an unoccupied square as having AC 5) with range being twice your reach. The normal limit of 5x your weapon's range does not apply here.

    An unwilling target, due to all their kicking and fidgeting, adds -4 to your roll.

    A willing target may use a DEX-based Aid Another to add +2 to your roll.

    Example: Gerta the Grappling Githyanki has 18 strength and has been enlarged, thus granting her an extra +2 to strength. She reaches out and successfully grabs a slightly obese goblin weighing 50 pounds. Her "Lift Over Head" is 800 (400 x2 for Large size), meaning that she can throw it:
    800 - 50 = 750
    750/100 = 7
    7 squares, or 35 feet.

    She picks an unoccupied space 30 feet away. Her reach is 10ft (range 20ft), so she will have a -4 penalty to her throw:


    d20 + 3 (BAB) - 4 (unwilling opponent) - 2 (one range increments) > 5 (AC of unoccupied space)

    Thus she must roll an 8 to hit her target with the goblin.

    If you fail to hit the target roll a d8. A "1" means your creature lands in the square, adjacent to the target, closest to you. 2-8 continue clockwise around the target in this fashion.

    Step 3.5 - Landing
    Not every throw will live up to it's potential. While there are countless things that could cut an arc short, most fall into two categories.

    Softened Fall
    Anything that offers you a bit of deceleration (snow, haystacks, other creature's, etc.) counts as a softened fall. Treat the first d6 of damage as non-lethal. There are some special rules for falling into water that you can find in the SRD.

    Interrupted Fall
    If you throw your character into something unyielding, such as a tree or stone wall, then all the energy from the fall gets absorbed by the character and they take damage as if they had fallen the full distance. This also covers throwing someone to the (hard) ground (sort of like a goo-filled bang snap).

    Step 5 - Damage

    There are three possible outcomes here: target is thrown against a unoccupied space, and unwilling target against a creature, or willing target against a creature.

    In keeping with the K.I.S.S. principle of this post, a thrown impact is basically a sideways fall, so we'll use the rules that already exist with the added caveat that you land in a prone position.


    Unoccupied Space
    Deal damage normally.


    Unwilling Creature Against Target
    Split the damage in half. The Unwilling creature may take the first d6 as non-lethal damage, since the other creature created a softened fall. The other creature takes full lethal damage.
    The thrown creature ends up lying prone in the same square as the target.


    Willing Creature Against Target
    Split the damage the same way as above. In addition, the willing target may choose to make one standard attack against the target before falling prone in the same square.

    This attack must be taken immediately after hitting the target, and counts as the creature's standard action for the round. They may still take their move action when their turn arrives (if they have not already used it), and may not attack if they have already taken a standard action this round.

    Example: Earlier, Gerta delivered 35 feet of massive internal trauma to her little green friend. According to the SRD, for every ten feet you fall it's a d6 of damage (max 20d6). Assuming that the total kinetic energy from horizontal and vertical momentum evens out in the wash:
    35 / 10 = 3
    So a total of 3d6 damage from the throw.


    Questions

    Spoiler
    Show

    What if there's a creature between me and the target?
    You may attempt to "lob" your target creature up to half the maximum horizontal distance possible. Add a -2 penalty for each creature you must throw over.

    Shouldn't heavier creatures do more damage?
    Yes, but like I said, we want to keep the math simple on this. If you really want to change this, a simple method is to just increase or decrease the die for falling damage. That is: Medium creatures use d6, Small creatures d4, Large creatures d8, etc.

    What about Tumble Checks?
    As per the SRD, beating a DC15 tumble check while being thrown allows you to arrange your body in such a way that you treat the throw as ten feet shorter than it really is. This stacks with a Softened Fall. You also do not land prone.

    Can I attack as I pass by?
    You know someone's going to ask to do this. If you can beat a DC30 tumble check you may attack and continue past the target to land non-prone. But you will no longer be splitting the damage and the surface may or may not Soften your Fall, so use this wisely.

    Really High Strength?
    In what is likely the worst day of his life, our goblin from earlier lands at the feet of Albert the Cloud Giant. Annoyed at the regurgitated goblin innards on his sandals, the purple people eater picks their owner up and throws him as far as he can. With a "Lift Above Head" of 12 800lbs, that works out to about 635 feet.

    While distances like these will definitely take a character out of combat, they most likely won't be enough to kill a reasonably well built fighter or barbarian. Basically warn your players that you are using this rule so they can work on a backup plan.

    What if the d8 gives me an occupied square?
    Let's say that you miss your target and the d8 says your character lands in an occupied square. In that case your thrown Creature hits whatever is in that square (friend or foe). Calculate damage as per the rules earlier.


    Feats
    Spoiler
    Show

    A few treats to take advantage of this new special attack and make builds a bit easier.

    Improved Throw Creature (Improved Grapple) - You have become more skilled at raising a struggling creatures above your head. You no longer need to make a grapple check to lift a creature for a throw (you must still make the initial grapple however).

    Greater Improved Throw Creature (Improved Grapple, Improved Throw Creature) - Despite the awkwardness and unbalanced shape of most living things, you can throw them with great accuracy. You no longer take a -4 penalty when throwing a creature against a specific target.

    Bouncer (General) - When throwing a creature of the same size category as you, you may use your "Lift Off ground" value instead of your "Lift Over head".

    Traveling (Improved Throw Creature) - You may move your character and raise a grappled creature above your head as a single move action. This movement must be unobstructed and in a straight line. You may use your full movement, unless the creature's weight changes your encumbrance category.

    Cannonball (General) - You have become very good at positioning your body while being thrown. When you are the willing participant of a Throw Creature attack and make a softened fall, you may make a reflex save of 10 + distance/5 to take half damage.

    Master Cannonball (Cannonball) - Same as Cannonball, except a successful reflex save negates all damage, and a failure results in half damage.
    Last edited by TripleD; 2013-04-15 at 08:58 AM. Reason: Clarification

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Chuck-a-Critter [3.5 Throwing Enemies and Allies]

    Fling creature
    Pre-recs.) Size large, str 19, ability to hurl boulders, improved grapple

    You are considered as having proficiency with throwing creatures and they count as thrown weapons for you. You are able to throw any creatures that is at least one size category smaller then you that you can lift over your head as a standard action. for this feat creatures can count as either be willing or unwilling.

    a willing creature is a creature that wants to be throw or unable to take action against the thrower, this includes but not limited to creatures that are sleeping, helpless, unaware of the thrower,stunned, immobile, pinned, etc. it takes a Move action to pick up willing creatures and a standard action to throw them. so basically a full round action.

    An unwilling creature is any creature that does not want to be thrown and can take actions to stop the thrower, you must first successfully grapple the creature and then must win a second grapple check to throw them; this second grapple check provokes an attack of opportunity unless you have the improved fling creature feat.

    The range increment on the throw creature is based on A) how many size categories smaller then you it is, B) what weight category it is for you, C) if the creature is willing or not.

    Size categories: max load: Medium load: Light load:
    1 size smaller 10ft 20ft 30ft
    2 sizes smaller 20ft 40ft 60ft
    3 sizes smaller+ 30ft 60ft 90ft

    A willing creature can decide to make a free “Aid another” check to help the thrower with a DC 10 dex check to add 5 ft to the range increment.

    A creature can be thrown either vertically or horizontally, in the case of vertically halve the range increment, creature takes falling damage normally. In the case of horizontally the creature takes damage as if it had fallen half the distance it was thrown + the strength mod of the thrower.

    Example John the ogre throws Jim the human horizontally. Since John is size category large with a strength mod of 5 and can lift Jim as a light load he can throw Jim with a base range increment of 25ft, and since Jim is willing and made the check the range increment goes up to 30ft per range increment. John the ogre throws Jim 80 feet and Jim will take 4d6 +5 points of damage from this action. Jim can make the standard tumble check to reduce the fall damage by 10 ft (this is calculated after the distance has been halved).


    A creature can be thrown at another creature as a standard action, in which case the thrower makes the normal attack roll check against the defending creatures.

    The thrower takes a -4 on this check if the creature is unwilling. If the attack hits both creatures take damage equal to half distance thrown + the strength mod of the thrower+ 1d6 per 200 pounds of the thrown creatures weight (minimum 1d6), this damage is divided evenly between the both of them. Then the creature that was being attacked can make a reflex save DC = to the thrower’s attack roll, failure means that the creature falls prone. Both creatures end in the same square.

    [COLOR="rgb(105, 105, 105)"]
    John the ogre decides he wants to throw the 450lb barbarian dwarf that has been attacking him, as his standard action for this round he attempts to grapple the barbarian dwarf without provoking due to the improved grapple and he succeeds. on his next turn if he is still grappling the barbarian dwarf in place of the normal standard action to maintain the grapple he can attempt to throw the barbarian dwarf and the elf ranger shooting at him from 60ft away. he makes his grapple check against the barbarian dwarf and if wins he then makes his attack check against the elf ranger. if the barbarian dwarf wins then he gets to move him self to any open square that is within Johns reach. but this time John is the winner and now makes his attack against the range, this attack check is at a -4 from having to fight the barbarian dwarf. thanks to a high roll or maybe DM fudging the attack is successful. between the two of them they take 3d6 six from the distance thrown+5 from johns str mod + 3d6 from the dwarf weighing more then 400lb but less then 600lb. the total result is 6d6+5 split between the two of them.
    [/COLOR]


    The options for the creature being thrown depending on wither or not it was willing thrown.

    WILLING:
    A willing creature can do the action during the throw;
    1. Free aid another check to increase the range increment by 5ft
    2. Being thrown at as an attack allows you to spend your next standard action and make its own attack on said creature this attack is made at a -4 to hit unless it is with a piercing attack. With a piercing type attack you don’t add your strength mod to damage and instead you don’t take throwers strength mod damage
    3. Normal Tumble check to reduce the falling damage taken but this also reduces the damage if done during an attacking throw.
    4. Reflex or tumble to remain standing DC = to throwers attack roll for the thrown check (either against a creature or a square).

    UNWILLING:
    An unwilling creature can do the following actions during the throw;

    1. If it fails the grapples check by less than 5 it can make a free opposed check against the thrower to reduce the range increment by 5ft. This check is 1d20+BAB+ Str, Dex, or if you have the ability to use a different stat for CMB checks you may use that one
    2. It can make the normal tumble check to reduce its falling damage
    3. Due to failing the grapple check to not be thrown an unwilling creature automatically lands prone in the square it hits.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Chuck-a-Critter [3.5 Throwing Enemies and Allies]

    Thanks for taking the time to write that out.

    What I Like
    • Much clearer definition of enemy vs. ally (or as you put it, "willing" vs. "unwilling")
    • A willing participant can "aid" their helper by making themselves more throwable
    • The grapple check to pick up the creature. This makes sense as, when you think about it, it's basically a vertical pin
    • Feats to make throwing easier. It makes a "thrower build" more appealing
    • Reflex save for a creature hit with another.
    • Halving the vertical distance is more logical than using 3/4
    • -4 penalty for attacking a specific square with an unwilling opponent


    What I didn't like
    • I don't think throwing needs to be a feat. Feats represent a special ability that requires time and training. For example, all archers can shoot a bow, but it requires a unique set of skills to shoot two arrows at once ("Manyshot"). Like tripping or bull rushing, anyone in the right circumstance should be able to throw their opponent.
    • The size category requirement seems overly restrictive. A dwarf who's strength has been buffed sky high should be able to pick up a human and throw them against a wall.
    • Adding the strength modifier to damage seems to make it more complicated than it has to be. I think it should just be a matter of how far you can throw
    • Factoring in the weight for damage at first seems like a logical choice. After all, something that weighs more has greater momentum at the same speed. However, if you use weight and strength as the basis for distance thrown, this is already factored in (i.e. the heavier creature cannot be thrown as far).
    • Having the second grapple with an unwilling opponent be a standard action. This means it's going to take three turns on average to execute this manoeuvre. That seems a little too expensive to be practical.
    • Treating the damage as half distance fallen, instead of full distance fallen, seems to make it a bit underpowered. If a creature is able to throw a PC so far that they would deal OHKO damage they are probably several size categories larger, very easy to hit, and thus very easy to break their concentration (see new rules)
    • Throwing an ally for an attack doesn't quite mesh with our concept of "initiative order", since essentially the throw and attack are simultaneous. It's a weird case that I'll have to turn over a couple times to make something workable.


    If it's okay with you I'd like to edit my first post to include some of your ideas.

    In addition, here are some feats that could be useful (they could be easily tweaked to fit into both of our systems).

    Improved Throw Creature (Improved Grapple) - You have become more skilled at raising a struggling creatures above your head. You no longer need to make a grapple check to lift a creature for a throw (you must still make the initial grapple however).

    Greater Improved Throw Creature (Improved Grapple, Improved Throw Creature) - Despite the awkwardness and unbalanced shape of most living things, you can throw them with great accuracy. You no longer take a -4 penalty when throwing a creature against a specific target.

    Bouncer (General) - When throwing a creature of the same size category as you, you may use your "Lift Off ground" value instead of your "Lift Over head".

    Traveling (Improved Throw Creature) - You may move your character and raise a grappled creature above your head as a single move action. This movement must be unobstructed and in a straight line. You may use your full movement, unless the creature's weight changes your encumbrance category.

    Cannonball (General) - You have become very good at positioning your body while being thrown. When you are the willing participant of a Throw Creature attack and make a softened fall, you may make a reflex save of 10 + distance/5 to take half damage.

    Master Cannonball (Cannonball) - Same as Cannonball, except a successful reflex save negates all damage, and a failure results in half damage.
    Last edited by TripleD; 2013-04-05 at 07:43 AM. Reason: Politeness

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Ir0npanda's Avatar

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    Mar 2013

    tongue Re: Throw Creature [3.5 Special Attack]

    Traveling? Like in basketball?

    I love you man

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Throw Creature [3.5 Special Attack]

    so here is the new throwing creature CMB me and my DM worked out for everyone. it works similar to the feat we created and i guess a lot of it is meant to replace it.

    a creature can throw another creature its size or less that it can lift over its head. the range is based on the weight of the creature.

    same size
    max load: 5 ft
    med load: 10 ft
    light load: 15 ft

    one size smaller
    max load: 10 ft
    med load: 20 ft
    light load: 30 ft



    2 size smaller
    max load: 20 ft
    med load: 40 ft
    light load: 60 ft

    3+ sizes smaller
    max load: 30 ft
    med load: 60 ft
    light load: 90 ft

    a willing creature is a creature that wants to be throw or unable to take action against the thrower, this includes but not limited to creatures that are sleeping, helpless, unaware of the thrower,stunned, immobile, pinned, etc.

    An unwilling creature is any creature that does not want to be thrown and can take actions to stop the thrower

    picking up a creature depends on if it is willing or unwilling. it takes a move action to pick up a willing creature and a standard action to throw it. it takes a grapple check (standard action) to pick up an unwilling creature and a throw check (a full-round action) to throw an unwilling creature. a throw check works just like a grapple check but in the case of the creature being thrown wins it gets to move itself into any square the thrower threatens, this check also provokes an AoO during the grapple.

    creature can be thrown vertically at half the range increment or horizontal for the full range increment. if thrown vertically the creature takes normal falling damage. the damage caps at 20d6 as per normal due to terminal velocity.

    if thrown horizontal the creature takes falling damage equal to 1/2 distance thrown + the throwers strength mod. This damage does not cap out at the normal 20d6. if the creature is thrown at something like a thick stone wall or sturdy tree, the creature takes full damage as if he had fallen the whole distance even if he is stopped short. this damage again does not cap at 20d6 because terminal velocity is not a factor. A creature can be thrown through a thin wall, window, door. in such a case the creature might have a chance of going through these objects. the thrower must first make an attack check to hit the target. to determine if the creature does make it through and the object take damage = to thrower's str mod + 1d6 for every 200lb of the thrown creature's total weight. then both the object and the creature take 1d6 points of damage for every 10 ft of the total throwing distance until the object is destroyed. the creature flies the remaining feet and takes half this distance in falling damage.

    when throwing a creature at another creature the thrower must make a normal attack check against the creatures AC. The thrower takes a -4 if it tries to throw an unwilling creature, on a successful hit both creature take 1/2 the distance thrown worth of damage + the throwers str mod. the creature that was attacked also takes an additional 1d6 for each 200 lb of the thrown creatures total weight. the defending creature can make a reflex save to not be knocked prone DC = throwers attack roll.

    Willing creatures can get/give bonus to this CMB.
    [/LIST]
    1. reflex check DC= throwers attack roll, to remain standing
    2. a tumble check to reduce fall damage as normal, this is factored in after the distance has been halved
    3. if the creature has held its action it can make a single attack on the creature being attack
    4. Free dex Check DC 10 to increase range by 5ftked at a -4 to hit.


    Unwilling creatures can get/give penalties to this CMB

    1. If it fails the grapples check by less than 5 it can make a free opposed check against the thrower to reduce the range increment by 5ft. This check is 1d20+BAB+ Str, Dex, or if you have the ability to use a different stat for CMB checks you may use that one
    2. It can make the normal tumble check to reduce its falling damage
    3. Due to failing the grapple check to not be thrown an unwilling creature automatically lands prone in the square it hits.



    NEW FEATS

    Improved fling creature: improved fling creature lets you throw creatures one size category larger then yourself and gives you a bonus to throwing smaller creatures. range increments for large creatures becomes the older range increment for throwing a creature your size, range increments for your size is now the old ones for a creature one size smaller, etc etc etc, the new range increments for throwing a creature 3+ sizes smaller is;
    max load: 40ft
    med load: 80ft
    light load: 120ft
    in addition to this a throw check for a willing creature is a move action and you can start a grapple with an unwilling creature as part of a throw check that takes a full round. a Throw check does not provoke an AoO.
    a willing creature can make a DC 15 dex check to add +10 to the range increment. if the willing creature held its turn until now it can make a full attack action but all attack suffer a -4 penalty. An unwilling creature can not reduce the range increment any more. the thrower also does not take a -4 to the attack check with an unwilling creature.

    Greater fling creature: you can throw creatures two size categories larger then yourself. move the range increments from improved fling creature up one size category again and the new range increments for a creature 3+ sizes smaller are;
    max load: 50ft
    med load: 100ft
    light load: 150ft
    you can now throw as many willing creatures as you could fire a bow, a throw check with an unwilling creature takes only a move action and you get +4 to the throw check but not the attack check. willing creatures can make a DC 20 Dex check to add +15 to the range increment and if they held their turn until now they can make a full round attack on the target creature. unwilling creatures now provoke AoO as they pass by

    Fling the Line: you can throw a creature so hard that you can hit multiple targets. For this feat to work you must be able to throw the creature at least 60 feet. as a standard action you throw the creature 60ft and make one attack action against each creature in the path of travel. damage dealt to the thrown creature only happens once and the defending creatures all take damage normally as if they had been the only target. each get there own reflex save or be knocked prone.

    Gentle thrower: you can throw a creature harder or softer at your pleasure. you can have the thrown creature take only 1/4 the distance thrown in falling damage or 3/4 the distance thrown in falling damage.

    Improved Gentle Thrower: you can have the thrown creature take not damage or all the damage or anything in between. you decide how much damage the thrown creature takes up to a maximum of the thrown distance in falling damage.

    spit shine curve: you are so good at throwing creatures that you can even put just the right a spin on them. when you throw a creature you can have it change directions once at a 90* angle. this lets you throw around corners and the like.

    i have no clue on some of the prereqs for these feats so any suggestions would be of help

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