(Creature) (Spell) Organ Undead, Nightmares of Anatomy (P.E.A.C.H.)

[DracoDei]

I cant wait to see the juggernaut thing :D

...you want the template first or a single example that might not PRECISELY match the eventual template?

Going to be a non-trivial task in either case, and I have other stuff on my plate... not a lot of stuff, it is just that I have a very small "plate" for the last few years (working on fixing that).

[inuyasha]

i wanna see the template

[drack]

Epic feat investment: more that they'd be getting it more for other spells like resurrection. At the end of the day undead creation is pretty cheep until you start creating millions of HD. Also don't forget the classic wealth breaking tricks that less GMs disallow then I'd like. Hire untrained assistants and have them aid another for your craft check, cast wall of salt and sell lots of pricy salt, any of the true creation tricks, get an Su or spell-like wish and wish for 25k gold of components.

Spell requirements: You may have a point. Guess you could do multiple skills, or pick something from the cleric and sorcerer/wizard list for each. Most necromancers end up drawing from thee lists in some form at the end of the day. Perhaps some off the dread necromancer list especially. I admit a little tricky

Single corpse, lots of HD: I tend to see this as more of an advantage to the necromancer then a disadvantage. Ones it doesn't like are sent to the fore-ground, and at the end of the day there's just more HD for less corpse gathering. Though you may have a point with them having higher turn resistance. Still many of them are only for the check, not HD commanded.

Summon undead: I think so. I haven't really looked at their power level compared with the stuff there, but it certainly makes it more interesting.

rolling eyes: I suppose.

"Yeah, I'd prefer to just set some CRs for the individual examples to start with (and I think I may have been doing so as I went)." Yup, I usually do it the other way around. (possibly why it's a pain for me)

Zooming brain: Ah, I was mostly suggesting that were it all based on mental mods it might be simpler to not do the examples by size, but by sum of mental mods. In any case I'll trust you have your own ideas.

[DracoDei]

Epic feat investment: more that they'd be getting it more for other spells like resurrection. At the end of the day undead creation is pretty cheep until you start creating millions of HD. Also don't forget the classic wealth breaking tricks that less GMs disallow then I'd like. Hire untrained assistants and have them aid another for your craft check, cast wall of salt and sell lots of pricy salt, any of the true creation tricks, get an Su or spell-like wish and wish for 25k gold of components.

I hear different things about the costs of undead being important/unimportant.

Spell requirements: You may have a point. Guess you could do multiple skills, or pick something from the cleric and sorcerer/wizard list for each. Most necromancers end up drawing from thee lists in some form at the end of the day. Perhaps some off the dread necromancer list especially. I admit a little tricky

I don't know what is on the Dread Necromancer list, however, I intend to make it so Dread Necromancers get all the required spells added to their lists, but ONLY for the purposes of creating these undead. They ARE supposed to be the masters of undeath after all... seems unfair not to allow them to create these things well.

Single corpse, lots of HD: I tend to see this as more of an advantage to the necromancer then a disadvantage. Ones it doesn't like are sent to the fore-ground, and at the end of the day there's just more HD for less corpse gathering.

Out of combat that may usually apply (but it is GP inefficient) in most cases.

In-combat, you end up getting attacked by whatever you can't control. If you can control everything, great. You just send what you don't like to the front lines and if it survives the fight you kill it yourself if you want to.

Though you may have a point with them having higher turn resistance. Still many of them are only for the check, not HD commanded.

Actually, for most of them it IS for HD commanded, since that is how the [Organ Undead] sub-type causes them to work. I added that trait to them* for that very reason.
*I think I got all of them at least in the Type/Subtype line, if not in the text below. I just added it to the Fat Globs, but that is an unusual case, since the sub-type is overridden by "Easily Controlled".

Summon undead: I think so. I haven't really looked at their power level compared with the stuff there, but it certainly makes it more interesting.

Glad to have that verified, at least a little.

rolling eyes: I suppose.

"Yeah, I'd prefer to just set some CRs for the individual examples to start with (and I think I may have been doing so as I went)." Yup, I usually do it the other way around. (possibly why it's a pain for me)

You mean setting the CR adjustment for the template before that of the individual examples? Yeah, so do I, but as noted, this is a complex mess for flavor/roleplay reasons. It rewards hunting down superior specimens, if only by selecting things other than the common varieties of humanoid.

Zooming brain: Ah, I was mostly suggesting that were it all based on mental mods it might be simpler to not do the examples by size, but by sum of mental mods. In any case I'll trust you have your own ideas.

See above.


EDIT: I have added the [Organ Undead] type to the Size/Type lines in several cases (probably ones that don't have turn resistance, and thus it wasn't as important to edit it in), and otherwise improved the tables a bit. I have two ways of formatting the explanation of the Organ Undead type that I have in some of the individual monster types. One is a direct copy of how I explain it initially (outside any monster entry) and the other is striped down to it mechanical effect. Not sure which version I will use. What do people think?

Option 1:

Spoiler

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Organ Undead: For purposes of controlling or creation add the turn resistance of an undead with this subtype to its hitdice in all cases rather than only for turning/rebuking/commanding/destroying. Note especially that this applies to how many hitdice worth of the Animate Dead control pool it takes up.

Undead with this subtype often require additional spells to create in the simplest way, in addition to skill (or luck) with cutting up inanimate corpses to remove the organ.

Option 2:

Spoiler

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Organ Undead: For purposes of controlling or creation add a <Name of Monster>'s turn resistance to its hitdice in all cases rather than only for turning/rebuking/commanding/destroying.

[drack]

"I hear different things about the costs of undead being important/unimportant."
Yeah, that's because in the end it's dependent on two things. First f the GM allows the above stated methods/if the player uses them, and if not, then on how the player plays necromancers. Take for instance a necromancer I'm currently playing. It' level 15, and the game is low optimization, therefore I am going for an army of ~7000 undeads of relatively low HD. This is rather easy to destroy and expensive to make. Alternatively I could command a thousand ~60HD undeads. (Same price, harder to kill, so I'll probably be going with the former to keep in line with the overall power level.) Alternatively I could make an army of ~18 undeads who together have a greater combat potential to either army, but with a significantly lower investment. This is done by using the versatility of having more undeads in the books then just skeletons and zombies, and using them with a few spells that work nicely with undeads. The GM decided to allow spells to replace material components, so the whole horde is dirt cheep anyways, but the point remains that those were the three options I was considering. So yeah, if you just want an army that looks big and evil like it's expensive, though mostly for show.

"I don't know what is on the Dread Necromancer list, however, I intend to make it so Dread Necromancers get all the required spells added to their lists, but ONLY for the purposes of creating these undead. They ARE supposed to be the masters of undeath after all... seems unfair not to allow them to create these things well." Nice.

"Out of combat that may usually apply (but it is GP inefficient) in most cases." Should I gauge out the eyes first and cut a few organs before I cast it so that the corpse doesn't have them to begin with?

"In-combat, you end up getting attacked by whatever you can't control. If you can control everything, great. You just send what you don't like to the front lines and if it survives the fight you kill it yourself if you want to."
Perhaps, though while few notice this, necromancers are intentionally about as good at killing undeads as their holy counterparts. Undeads are (often) the least of their worries. That and I'd be mildly surprised if someone cast this without many open HD. Combine that with that they can pick and choose which ones they keep, they can keep the better half easily able to destroy the lesser. Still I'll admit it is more the out of combat situation that troubles me...

"Actually, for most of them it IS for HD commanded, since that is how the [Organ Undead] sub-type causes them to work. I added that trait to them* for that very reason.
*I think I got all of them at least in the Type/Subtype line, if not in the text below. I just added it to the Fat Globs, but that is an unusual case, since the sub-type is overridden by "Easily Controlled"." I'll admt I've looked less closely at many of the organs.

"You mean setting the CR adjustment for the template before that of the individual examples? Yeah, so do I, but as noted, this is a complex mess for flavor/roleplay reasons. It rewards hunting down superior specimens, if only by selecting things other than the common varieties of humanoid." fare enough.

"Organ Undead type" subtype right?

Option 1&2: Hmm, both look rather adequate to be honest 1 does offer more fluff, though that's likely to show up elsewhere in the class too.

[DracoDei]

"Out of combat that may usually apply (but it is GP inefficient) in most cases." Should I gauge out the eyes first and cut a few organs before I cast it so that the corpse doesn't have them to begin with?

Very good point. I could say this doesn't work, but since it brings craft checks back into the picture, I think I like it. Might even replace the skill-rank minima instead of being in addition to them... but probably not.

"In-combat, you end up getting attacked by whatever you can't control. If you can control everything, great. You just send what you don't like to the front lines and if it survives the fight you kill it yourself if you want to."
Perhaps, though while few notice this, necromancers are intentionally about as good at killing undeads as their holy counterparts. Undeads are (often) the least of their worries. That and I'd be mildly surprised if someone cast this without many open HD. Combine that with that they can pick and choose which ones they keep, they can keep the better half easily able to destroy the lesser. Still I'll admit it is more the out of combat situation that troubles me...

Killing uncontrolled undead you just created is very poor action economy in combat, especially on top of a full-round action casting time.

This does answer a nagging worry I had about the logistics of using this spell out of combat.

"Actually, for most of them it IS for HD commanded, since that is how the [Organ Undead] sub-type causes them to work. I added that trait to them* for that very reason.
*I think I got all of them at least in the Type/Subtype line, if not in the text below. I just added it to the Fat Globs, but that is an unusual case, since the sub-type is overridden by "Easily Controlled"." I'll admt I've looked less closely at many of the organs.

Well, that explains that...

"Organ Undead type" subtype right?

Yes, it is a subtype

Option 1&2: Hmm, both look rather adequate to be honest 1 does offer more fluff, though that's likely to show up elsewhere in the class too.

Also true.

[drack]

Bold

Very good point. I could say this doesn't work, but since it brings craft checks back into the picture, I think I like it. Might even replace the skill-rank minima instead of being in addition to them... but probably not. Hmm, could be intreting though it's still a single skill check and a single spell for quite a few undeads. Also the non-organs don't have organ subtype, so I could just gut it if this works...

Killing uncontrolled undead you just created is very poor action economy in combat, especially on top of a full-round action casting time. I was referring to taking the half that you can control kill the others by picking the more useful half. Not as much action economy as material component wasting, though again that may or may not matter...

This does answer a nagging worry I had about the logistics of using this spell out of combat. Especially then they have the time and resources to ditch any that they don't like, and make the ones they do with only the one spell...

[DracoDei]

"Non organs"? Note that the only pre-existing monster the spell generates is a Skeleton, and that I specify gains the [Organ Undead] type.

I was thinking one skill check for each organ to be removed, although probably at a greatly reduced DC. I will probably say it doesn't work on corpses missing any of the organs but does require the rank minimum.

[drack]

"Non organs"? Note that the only pre-existing monster the spell generates is a Skeleton, and that I specify gains the [Organ Undead] type.

I was thinking one skill check for each organ to be removed, although probably at a greatly reduced DC. I will probably say it doesn't work on corpses missing any of the organs but does require the rank minimum.

potentially because I had read through the old versions a while ago. In any case I am thinking of the whole undead organ versus hardy turning thing. The latter is much easier to control, and less of a drawback.

Hmm, I suppose. A large part of it being that I hadn't seen many of the undead organ subtypes.

[Lix Lorn]

I love this project I love it I love it eeeh. <3
...
Undead are cute and cuddly, right? This is entirely a fitting response.

[drack]

Undead are cute and cuddly, right? This is entirely a fitting response.

You know they are.

[DracoDei]

You know, I should probably put in a disclaimer in the first post about how the Tiny and smaller (or maybe just Diminutive and Fine?) versions of these are glass cannons and rogue-wreckers, and thus should be used with great care.

EDIT:
And here we have it (suggestions for improvements welcome):
GMs should use the Diminutive and Fine versions of these things with great care, since they can easily wreck a party at low levels. They don't do much, but their ACs are very high, and the most mundane solution is running away(something many PCs are loathe to do), followed by burning oil (or more commonly for PCs alchemist's fire). Past that they fall easily to turning (1/2 HD or less means if they either are unaffected on a bad roll, or are destroyed on a decent one), magic missile, Burning Hands, etc. They are very dangerous as ambushers, for instance attacking a rogue who is looking for traps.
[/EDIT]

I love this project I love it I love it eeeh. <3
...
Undead are cute and cuddly, right? This is entirely a fitting response.

Always nice to know I have fans.

So, any thoughts on the muscle masses and/or spinning horizon inner ears?

Or, if you want a challenge, any tiny first steps towards what CRs should be for the Zooming Brains? Either individual examples or thoughts such as "Well, the DC is much more important than the damage for keeping them feeling like a threat to PCs, because dinking a full-caster's casting stat even a little tends to get them nervous, but if they only get that damage on a natural 1 they are going to tend to dismiss it as a threat."

EDIT:
Empty skin's can be quite "cute and cuddly". Kittens, Puppies...

[Lix Lorn]

Excellent. :3

Couple of things I noticed...

Add a standard Spinning-Horizon Inner Ear to the list for Summon Undead IV, and thus multiples for higher level spells in the series.
Add an Advanced Spinning-Horizon Inner Ear (2 HD) to the list for Summon Undead IV, and thus multiples for higher level spells in the series.

One of these should be three or five, presumably?

I think the fat glob's Engulf DC table is broken.
Colossal is Str 10, so should just be one higher (from the racial bonue) than the fatiguing blow, which is 10+1/2 HD. Instead it's two higher?
As far as I can tell, Small through huge are correct, but gargantuan and colossal are one too high.

The table for a large muscle mass says STR instead of Str. Really minor. Same for Colossal.

[DracoDei]

Excellent. :3

Couple of things I noticed...

One of these should be three or five, presumably?

I think the fat glob's Engulf DC table is broken.
Colossal is Str 10, so should just be one higher (from the racial bonue) than the fatiguing blow, which is 10+1/2 HD. Instead it's two higher?
As far as I can tell, Small through huge are correct, but gargantuan and colossal are one too high.

The table for a large muscle mass says STR instead of Str. Really minor. Same for Colossal.

Thanks, that is helpful!
Will edit "soonish".

[Lix Lorn]

Glad to help. I might look through the old ones later. xD

[DracoDei]

Glad to help. I might look through the old ones later. xD

I will hope, but not expect.

[Lix Lorn]

Okay... Dark Hearts are still awesome. They have oddly high Strength and masses of hitdice. I presume the latter making them hard to control is intentional, or..?

Empty Skins are creepy, Fat Globs are weeird... oh!

For purposes of how many total hitdice may be created or controlled via any means, including, but not limited to the Command Undead sub-feature of the class feature of a cleric who Rebukes undead, and Animate Dead a fat glob counts as only 1/3 its actual hitdice.

Creating a Fat Glob: Note that for purposes of creating and controlling undead fat-globs count as only 1/4 there actual hit-dice.

Which?
(Also that should be 'their'. Sorry.)

Looking at Floating Lungs, I'm thinking it might be good to type out the 'with the right checks, you can make X, Y, Z and Q from a single corpse' once and just copy paste it to all of them.

The stomach's attack bonuses bug me a little. It feels wrong that they should go /down/... Not entirely sure how to fix it though, and the damage goes REALLY high at the end, so that might make up for it.
Easiest thing would just be a racial feature called 'Accuracy' giving them a scaling bonus...
I dunno.

Also... the stomach swarm is a really cool idea, but the mechanics make my head spin. Having to look at two variables on a table is... survivable, but having a third table with a non-round decimal multiplier is... confusing. DXD

The Evasion entry in Rolling Eyeball refers to it as she.
I also wonder why there's not a divination/necromancy spell to access old reports. Were I a necromancer*, that failing would bother me very much.

Skulking Bladder... ah, is marked as unfinished. Okays.

Only one size of ear? To be fair, they wouldn't get stronger or more useful as they went up, so I can understand that.

I'm also curious as to what the mystery organ is! And my brains would have gone in the other direction...

*Which I, obviously, am not. >_>

[DracoDei]

Okay... Dark Hearts are still awesome. They have oddly high Strength and masses of hitdice. I presume the latter making them hard to control is intentional, or..?

High strength and masses of hitdice relative to their size are both in keeping with the "Heart" theme. The strength score hardly matters since they can't slam or grapple(they can certainly escape grapples well enough), although I guess they could be halfway effective at tripping or bullrushing between the strength and the hitdice.

I could be talked into giving them negative turn resistance or something if people thought it would balance the creature better somehow. Then again, as bottomless out of combat healing batteries I think the high hitdice are worth it... shoot, at mid-levels even summoning them can compete with Inflict X Wounds/ Mass, except I can't remember if most of the comparisons really ARE for the Mass version or not.

Empty Skins are creepy,

Fat Globs are weeird

How so?

... oh!

<Stuff>

Which?

Used to be 1/4, changed it to 1/3 based on a comment from my GM after I actually built a character that controlled a 32 HD Huge one.

Fixed.

(Also that should be 'their'. Sorry.)

Fixed.

Looking at Floating Lungs, I'm thinking it might be good to type out the 'with the right checks, you can make X, Y, Z and Q from a single corpse' once and just copy paste it to all of them.

Ideally with appropriate variations to eliminate the organ the entry is for as being a link. If that is what you mean, where did I omit that?

The stomach's attack bonuses bug me a little. It feels wrong that they should go /down/... Not entirely sure how to fix it though, and the damage goes REALLY high at the end, so that might make up for it.
Easiest thing would just be a racial feature called 'Accuracy' giving them a scaling bonus...
I dunno.

Eh, it is a problem with the system, at least when it comes to dexterity-based attacks. We are still talking about touch AC, which is pretty easy to make in many cases, and the really large ones are both hard to acquire, and have a place as siege engines against wooden gates, doors, and palisades since acid does full damage to objects and you can get the damage stacking pretty high with the 4 round linger-time.

Still, I suppose I could give them full BAB or make them immune to negative to-hit modifiers for their size or something... or maybe just have the dexterities bottom out at 16 instead of 10.

Interesting that you would single them out when the same applies to the spinal cords, livers, and intestines. Then again, those are melee touches, even if some/all of them get weapon finesse at the smaller sizes.

Also... the stomach swarm is a really cool idea, but the mechanics make my head spin. Having to look at two variables on a table is... survivable, but having a third table with a non-round decimal multiplier is... confusing. DXD

Eh, my inner math geek... hey, at least you don't have to roll any dice! And the second table is only needed in fairly specific circumstances.

Really those, those swarms may have just been something someone suggested, and then I did math to it and it turned out to be a very very bad idea based on anything like a reasonable assumption about how many fire at a given target.

The Evasion entry in Rolling Eyeball refers to it as she.

Fixed!

I also wonder why there's not a divination/necromancy spell to access old reports. Were I a necromancer*, that failing would bother me very much.

You can control 16 of them for a single hitdie out of your Animate Dead or Turn/Rebuke pools. Keeping ones that witness important events around in a little wooden "egg carton" seems like no great loss to me.

That said, I suppose that such a spell COULD be created.

Skulking Bladder... ah, is marked as unfinished. Okays.

Only one size of ear? To be fair, they wouldn't get stronger or more useful as they went up, so I can understand that.

I may have failed a "Knowledge(Nature/Heal)" check, but I don't THINK inner ears get much bigger, same as for eyes. Maybe for whales and such that can hear extremely low frequencies?

And they would only get better due to more hitpoints, saves, and higher DCs, all of which wouldn't scale very high I don't think.

I'm also curious as to what the mystery organ is!

Well, promise not to laugh, since it was requested?

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Crawling Spleen, from the TV show "Angry Beavers".

And my brains would have gone in the other direction...

You mean you would have made them smart? I felt that "brain in a jar" had been done enough. Didn't feel like recreating anything very close to it.

Or did you just mean "Not so silly" with better maneuverability and maybe IFF?

[Lix Lorn]

High strength and masses of hitdice relative to their size are both in keeping with the "Heart" theme. The strength score hardly matters since they can't slam or grapple(they can certainly escape grapples well enough), although I guess they could be halfway effective at tripping or bullrushing between the strength and the hitdice.

I could be talked into giving them negative turn resistance or something if people thought it would balance the creature better somehow. Then again, as bottomless out of combat healing batteries I think the high hitdice are worth it... shoot, at mid-levels even summoning them can compete with Inflict X Wounds/ Mass, except I can't remember if most of the comparisons really ARE for the Mass version or not.

Like I said, it's not necessarily a bad thing, I just wanted to check it was deliberate.
And the high Str makes sense to me!

How so?

...It's a glob of fat.
Weird as in weird, not as in mechanically or so. xD

Ideally with appropriate variations to eliminate the organ the entry is for as being a link. If that is what you mean, where did I omit that?

Most of the old ones seem to miss the newer ones, I think...
Empty Skin doesn't feature Eyes or Ears, or a Spinal Cord... so, that's at least one case of me being right. I was briefly scared I hadn't paid enough attention whoops.

Eh, it is a problem with the system, at least when it comes to dexterity-based attacks. We are still talking about touch AC, which is pretty easy to make in many cases, and the really large ones are both hard to acquire, and have a place as siege engines against wooden gates, doors, and palisades since acid does full damage to objects and you can get the damage stacking pretty high with the 4 round linger-time.

Still, I suppose I could give them full BAB or make them immune to negative to-hit modifiers for their size or something... or maybe just have the dexterities bottom out at 16 instead of 10.

This is true...
I just dislike it going /down/. Given the siege potential, and high damage, I wouldn't be bothered by them staying equal.
Oh!
Does it stack? If a Huge one hits someone two times in a row, do they then take 8d6 for the next three rounds, and then 4d6 on the fourth?

Interesting that you would single them out when the same applies to the spinal cords, livers, and intestines. Then again, those are melee touches, even if some/all of them get weapon finesse at the smaller sizes.

I probably didn't notice on them...

Eh, my inner math geek... hey, at least you don't have to roll any dice! And the second table is only needed in fairly specific circumstances.

Really those, those swarms may have just been something someone suggested, and then I did math to it and it turned out to be a very very bad idea based on anything like a reasonable assumption about how many fire at a given target.

Maths is evil and dangerous.

You can control 16 of them for a single hitdie out of your Animate Dead or Turn/Rebuke pools. Keeping ones that witness important events around in a little wooden "egg carton" seems like no great loss to me.

That said, I suppose that such a spell COULD be created.

Ha. That's a fair point.
...I'd still make the spell if I owned them. >>

I may have failed a "Knowledge(Nature/Heal)" check, but I don't THINK inner ears get much bigger, same as for eyes. Maybe for whales and such that can hear extremely low frequencies?

And they would only get better due to more hitpoints, saves, and higher DCs, all of which wouldn't scale very high I don't think.

Oooh, inner ears. That makes more sense.

And yeah, there wouldn't be much need for it.

Well, promise not to laugh, since it was requested?

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Crawling Spleen, from the TV show "Angry Beavers".

Why'd I laugh?

Spoiler

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Spleens were a running joke in one game I was in...

You mean you would have made them smart? I felt that "brain in a jar" had been done enough. Didn't feel like recreating anything very close to it.

Or did you just mean "Not so silly" with better maneuverability and maybe IFF?

Yeah, I woulda gone with smart. You're right though; way overdone.

[drack]

"I could be talked into giving them negative turn resistance or something if people thought it would balance the creature better somehow. Then again, as bottomless out of combat healing batteries I think the high hitdice are worth it... shoot, at mid-levels even summoning them can compete with Inflict X Wounds/ Mass, except I can't remember if most of the comparisons really ARE for the Mass version or not."

I took the HD padding to be intentional as it heals stuff big time later. I'd keep it, mostly because hearts heal multiple creatures at once.

Eh, my inner math geek... hey, at least you don't have to roll any dice! And the second table is only needed in fairly specific circumstances.

Really those, those swarms may have just been something someone suggested, and then I did math to it and it turned out to be a very very bad idea based on anything like a reasonable assumption about how many fire at a given target.
My inner math geek grins.

Admittedly I was thinking many of the more organ-like things would work well in swarms. (Though I don't think was the one to suggest it... unless I mentioned it and it was taken as a suggestion)

[DracoDei]

...It's a glob of fat.
Weird as in weird, not as in mechanically or so. xD

Never thought you meant mechanically.

Most of the old ones seem to miss the newer ones, I think...
Empty Skin doesn't feature Eyes or Ears, or a Spinal Cord... so, that's at least one case of me being right. I was briefly scared I hadn't paid enough attention whoops.

Ooo... yeah, that makes sense... and yes, I need to put that on my "to fix" list.

This is true...
I just dislike it going /down/. Given the siege potential, and high damage, I wouldn't be bothered by them staying equal.
Oh!
Does it stack? If a Huge one hits someone two times in a row, do they then take 8d6 for the next three rounds, and then 4d6 on the fourth?

Err... well, yes, it very much stacks, but if I remember how they modified energy resistance (it use to be per-round, now it works like DR in that it effects each hit) it isn't ever technically 8d6. It is two instances of 4d6 on those rounds, which means that it gets nerfed harder by hardness and energy resistance.

Maths is evil and dangerous.

Indeed.

Ha. That's a fair point.
...I'd still make the spell if I owned them. >>

I could probably whip something up pretty quick, except that I'm not sure on level... should also maybe have an expensive material component and a duration of "10 minutes/level" or something.

Oooh, inner ears. That makes more sense.

And yeah, there wouldn't be much need for it.

Ah, so that was the issue.

Why'd I laugh?

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Spleens were a running joke in one game I was in...

Good to know. A lot of people find organ undead in general more funny than horrifying. This still means that they are enjoying my work, but at the same time there is a small voice that cries out in my head "This person just doesn't understand my art!", no matter how ridiculous that is.

I went with it for the brains though, which I have come to regret, even though, perversely, I don't remember anyone commenting on their humor value.

Yeah, I woulda gone with smart. You're right though; way overdone.

Of course, if someone wanted to point out decent-or-better homebrew along those lines or even make one for the purpose, well, I would be willing to link or maybe even include in the same post with attribution if the author liked...

"I could be talked into giving them negative turn resistance or something if people thought it would balance the creature better somehow. Then again, as bottomless out of combat healing batteries I think the high hitdice are worth it... shoot, at mid-levels even summoning them can compete with Inflict X Wounds/ Mass, except I can't remember if most of the comparisons really ARE for the Mass version or not."

I took the HD padding to be intentional as it heals stuff big time later. I'd keep it, mostly because hearts heal multiple creatures at once.

Yeah, I didn't see any need to change it, but if someone had pointed something out I was willing to fix it.

Eh, my inner math geek... hey, at least you don't have to roll any dice! And the second table is only needed in fairly specific circumstances.

Really those, those swarms may have just been something someone suggested, and then I did math to it and it turned out to be a very very bad idea based on anything like a reasonable assumption about how many fire at a given target.

My inner math geek grins.

And yet they are super-lethal even at CR level if they actually swarm you, unless you have at least Protection from Energy[Acid] up and preferably Immunity to Energy[Acid]... which is part of the reason I gave them the trait about the recognizable smell.

Admittedly I was thinking many of the more organ-like things would work well in swarms. (Though I don't think was the one to suggest it... unless I mentioned it and it was taken as a suggestion)

I'll look up the mob template someone else made that is saved in my extended sig and see what it looks like when you run the spinal cords or inner ears through it...
Any specific requests?

[Lix Lorn]

Never thought you meant mechanically.

Well, if you can't understand what makes them weird otherwise, you may need to talk to an official.

Err... well, yes, it very much stacks, but if I remember how they modified energy resistance (it use to be per-round, now it works like DR in that it effects each hit) it isn't ever technically 8d6. It is two instances of 4d6 on those rounds, which means that it gets nerfed harder by hardness and energy resistance

Oh, yes, I was just shortening it for ease :)

I could probably whip something up pretty quick, except that I'm not sure on level... should also maybe have an expensive material component and a duration of "10 minutes/level" or something.

Cools, but don't feel you have to.

Ah, so that was the issue.

Yeah, I'm a derp. xD

Good to know. A lot of people find organ undead in general more funny than horrifying. This still means that they are enjoying my work, but at the same time there is a small voice that cries out in my head "This person just doesn't understand my art!", no matter how ridiculous that is.

They are funny; from the perspective of a player. If one of them flew at me, though? I would use so much fire.

I went with it for the brains though, which I have come to regret, even though, perversely, I don't remember anyone commenting on their humor value.

Ha.

Of course, if someone wanted to point out decent-or-better homebrew along those lines or even make one for the purpose, well, I would be willing to link or maybe even include in the same post with attribution if the author liked...

I'm tempted, but lazy. Plus, as you say, it's reeeeaaally overdone. xD

[drack]

I'll look up the mob template someone else made that is saved in my extended sig and see what it looks like when you run the spinal cords or inner ears through it...
Any specific requests?

Just gonna say this once. Way too much in the "everything else" box to sift through without already knowing where everything is. (That coming from the guy currently pulling up all the undead/undeath/necro-anything from Gitp homebrew archives for a 12 player game they're running)
Admittedly it might not be were I doing less at once though

Anywho you're asking little old me for requests? Well, if you insist. Assuming you mean along the lines of this thread:

Spoiler

Show

Wings (preferably jar-able for easy storage, and with some fun arial combat stuff) Perhaps a fin counterpart?
An antenna/feeler version of eye
Something fun could probably be done with nail clippings, or a stray jaw cut from a skull
Wad of goop (crafted from excessive stores of snot gathered from many dead, or the corpse of an ooze)
I also think it would be interesting to animate soles capable of disguising tracks and making new tracks.
Also I see body parts, but I see no blood. Perhaps a fluid form? *starts thinking of the fun stuff waterveiled assassins can do as a springboard*

*continues thinking and decides ideas come to easily to drack*

Anywho those all look fun so feel free to be choosy.

[Lix Lorn]

I second the blood and soles suggestions, and also suggest teeth. A phantom jaw with real teeth would be fun.

[drack]

I was thinking teeth, but I ran into one scanning all undeathy things in the homebrew section and wanted to see if it was decent first. That and jaw just seemed to fit the whole organ theme better then tooth.

[DracoDei]

Anywho you're asking little old me for requests? Well, if you insist. Assuming you mean along the lines of this thread:

Actually, I specifically meant "Which organs would you most like to see swarms of?", but this is good too.

Wings (preferably jar-able for easy storage, and with some fun arial combat stuff) Perhaps a fin counterpart?

Those would go with the skins as long as I am following my rule of "must be able to get everything from one corpse with good enough rolls".

An antenna/feeler version of eye

The play-back for that would be... weird. It would replay smells I should think... actually, that makes me think, I wonder if I should do an alternate/improved version of the ear that is a "bug".

Something fun could probably be done with nail clippings, or a stray jaw cut from a skull

Nail clippings aren't quite inspiring anything in me... maybe a swarm that does slash/peircing damage... need to make sure they have to come from dead things (so no just collecting shed stuff or trimming nails) with claw attacks.

Of course, those really should stay part of the skeleton for stuff with claw attacks if I continue to follow my rule (which I suspect many people wish I wouldn't).

Wad of goop (crafted from excessive stores of snot gathered from many dead, or the corpse of an ooze)

Too silly, and not technically a body-part per se. Someone suggested sinuses, built around Scent, which I might do (silly implications though for anyone who has played "Munchkin").

I also think it would be interesting to animate soles capable of disguising tracks and making new tracks.

Soles are part of the Empty Skin, and I'm really not trying to go down the grafts/animate magic item route that far.

Also I see body parts, but I see no blood. Perhaps a fluid form? *starts thinking of the fun stuff waterveiled assassins can do as a springboard*

I've seen/heard of at least two versions of animated blood. I should probably link at least one.

*continues thinking and decides ideas come to easily to drack*

They are interesting, just not necessarily all my style.

I second the blood and soles suggestions, and also suggest teeth. A phantom jaw with real teeth would be fun.

Eh... teeth are "Kinda sorta" part of the skeleton. I could see it either way anatomically, but the fact that skeletons don't get nerfed bite attacks argues that they should be part of the skeleton... Hmmm.... at the very least I would have to include rules for bite attacks from teeth that aren't from a creature with a bite attack, and, more importantly, how removing the teeth nerfs a skeleton/zombie's bite attack. Probably drop the die size by two or three steps, and change it from Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing to just Bludgeoning.

[drack]

Bold

Actually, I specifically meant "Which organs would you most like to see swarms of?", but this is good too.
To be honest, many of them I was thinking of swarmng in the sense of using a small group. I don't end up using the templates much, though the grapple might help... was it intestines?
Those would go with the skins as long as I am following my rule of "must be able to get everything from one corpse with good enough rolls".
They could, but it could be a cool new one. To be honest I was thinking mechanically more like lungs, but perhaps more specialized against opponents n their own environment.
The play-back for that would be... weird. It would replay smells I should think... actually, that makes me think, I wonder if I should do an alternate/improved version of the ear that is a "bug".
Mayhaps, I'll admit I was thinking it would be a nice lair decoration. This would probably be best being a swarm from the get-go though...
Nail clippings aren't quite inspiring anything in me... maybe a swarm that does slash/peircing damage... need to make sure they have to come from dead things (so no just collecting shed stuff or trimming nails) with claw attacks.

Of course, those really should stay part of the skeleton for stuff with claw attacks if I continue to follow my rule (which I suspect many people wish I wouldn't).
Nails aren't bone, claws are. (Well actually both claws and teeth are slightly different, but few people care beyond specialists like dentists.) Perhaps a jumpy swarm thing that can only do... forget what they're called... when you attack and aim for a specific body part. Perhaps let them gauge them out rather then destroying them for later reanimation.
Too silly, and not technically a body-part per se. Someone suggested sinuses, built around Scent, which I might do (silly implications though for anyone who has played "Munchkin").
That's actualy a good one... anywho I admit, I was half thinking just because I can only think of one undead template applicable to oozes that is not pathetically misplaced (as for instance mummified oozes are.) Nothing really out there just for them...
Soles are part of the Empty Skin, and I'm really not trying to go down the grafts/animate magic item route that far.
To be honest I was expecting that one. More just an intrestng idea to throw out there.
I've seen/heard of at least two versions of animated blood. I should probably link at least one.
Dry and liquid one? I'll admit I was thinking mayhapss something that can synergize with the heart. Mayhaps be able to link multiple creatures across a long distance (being visible as a stream of blood passing between them, and attacked as such), and having actions to draw health from "wiling" negative energy creatures, or giving its own to others.
They are interesting, just not necessarily all my style.
I know. For the most part I just took a minute or two and tossed you whatever popped into my mind along the line of thought of body parts.
Eh... teeth are "Kinda sorta" part of the skeleton. I could see it either way anatomically, but the fact that skeletons don't get nerfed bite attacks argues that they should be part of the skeleton... Hmmm.... at the very least I would have to include rules for bite attacks from teeth that aren't from a creature with a bite attack, and, more importantly, how removing the teeth nerfs a skeleton/zombie's bite attack. Probably drop the die size by two or three steps, and change it from Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing to just Bludgeoning.
Yup, wizards makes the classic mistake and calls it all bone.

[DracoDei]

To be honest, many of them I was thinking of swarmng in the sense of using a small group. I don't end up using the templates much, though the grapple might help... was it intestines?

Ah, so just using 4 to 10 organs of a given size, rather than a single one of 2 to 3 sizes larger?

Nails aren't bone, claws are. (Well actually both claws and teeth are slightly different, but few people care beyond specialists like dentists.)

When I said "the skeleton" I meant the monster!skeleton, not the anatomical!skeleton.

Perhaps a jumpy swarm thing that can only do... forget what they're called... when you attack and aim for a specific body part. Perhaps let them gauge them out rather then destroying them for later reanimation.

Called shots? D&D usually tries to avoid those, although there are exceptions (Vorpal weapons for one), and I could see what you are saying.

Too silly, and not technically a body-part per se. Someone suggested sinuses, built around Scent, which I might do (silly implications though for anyone who has played "Munchkin")That's actualy a good one... anywho I admit, I was half thinking just because I can only think of one undead template applicable to oozes that is not pathetically misplaced (as for instance mummified oozes are.) Nothing really out there just for them....

've seen/heard of at least two versions of animated blood. I should probably link at least one.
Dry and liquid one?

Pretty sure both were liquid. One is by Vorpal Tribble, and the other was something I think I heard about as a published monster.

I'll admit I was thinking mayhapss something that can synergize with the heart. Mayhaps be able to link multiple creatures across a long distance (being visible as a stream of blood passing between them, and attacked as such), and having actions to draw health from "willing" negative energy creatures, or giving its own to others.

...Hmmm... interesting idea! I could see myself doing that.

[drack]

4-10: well I as thinking more 10-20, but yeah.

the skeleton: Yeah, yeah, I know...

Called shots: yup.

...Hmmm... interesting idea! I could see myself doing that: Mwa-ha-ha, and now the seed is planted!

no comment on silly ooze undeads (the classsic goop to my wall, dribble to my cave, the squish to my gore)?

[DracoDei]

Actually, I have an Ooze that has been on my "drawing board" that might work best as an undead.

It deals little or no damage, but drains XPs. Not negative levels/level drain, XPs. To create a lower level version of negative levels.

Wouldn't belong in this thread though...