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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Nov 2005
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    Worcestershire, UK

    Default Reputation and alignment [Houserule, 3.PF, E6 - HELP WANTED!]

    EDIT: added some suggestions, decided to grant an Intimidate bonus to Chaos as well...

    I've had an idea to make alignment mechanically significant for my E6 PF game.
    In E6 every bonus and penalty counts, even when they're small - so I thought that combined with a reputation mechanic, your alignment could colour the way NPCs perceive you.

    Where I'm stuck - hence "HELP WANTED!" - is in deciding which social skills should be granted bonuses for which alignment axes.

    I'm fairly sure that the neutral axes should grant no special bonus - just the flat diplomacy bonus for sharing an axis.
    The other axes should grant bonuses of some sort - but what?
    I was thinking good should boost diplomacy, evil boosts intimidate - but law and chaos are harder to decide on.

    Please help!


    Here's the rule as it stands:

    Alignments
    Your moral and ethical outlook makes a difference to your understanding of others.

    It is easier to understand creatures and people who are similarly aligned to you.
    You gain a +1 alignment bonus to Sense motive checks against targets with any shared alignment axis.

    It is hard to understand people and creatures that are utterly opposed to your way of thinking.
    You take a -1 alignment penalty to Sense motive checks against targets with an alignment on the opposed alignment axis.

    The GM applies these bonuses secretly, without revealing the alignments of NPCs.

    Reputation
    Heroes become more well-known as they achieve memorable actions - this is reflected by an increasing reputation bonus.

    Your reputation bonus is equal to 1/2 your level (rounding down, to a minimum of 0).

    Additional reputation bonus rewards may be granted by the GM. Characters doing conspicuous deeds may gain increased reputation. Generally, such reputation bonuses should be no more than +1 / level.

    The reputation bonus sets the level of fame for your character. If NPCs have heard of you, then you gain modifiers to certain charisma-based checks, depending on your alignment.

    To determine whether any particular NPC has heard of a character with a reputation score, make a reputation check, DC15.

    A reputation check is 1d20 + reputation score + NPC's INT modifier

    A successful check means that your reputation modifier is applied to certain social checks.
    The GM may substitute a Knowledge skill bonus for the Int modifier if he decides the character’s past activities apply to a particular field. For example, if the character were a cleric, Knowledge (religion) might be appropriate.

    Reputation acts as a penalty to Disguise checks.

    Applying reputation
    Your reputation modifier is applied differently depending on your alignment.

    All alignments gain their reputation score as a reputation bonus to Diplomacy checks with targets having the exact same alignment. Reputation bonuses stack.

    Good alignments grant a reputation bonus to Diplomacy.
    Evil alignments grant a reputation bonus to Intimidate.
    Chaotic alignments grant a reputation bonus to Intimidate.
    Lawful alignments grant a reputation bonus to Bluff.
    Last edited by Altair_the_Vexed; 2013-07-05 at 08:04 AM. Reason: reacting to feedback

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    TuggyNE's Avatar

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    Jun 2011
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    Default Re: Reputation and alignment [Houserule, 3.PF, E6 - HELP WANTED!]

    In its current form, note that the Good axis doesn't stack its Diplomacy bonus for talking with another Good creature of the same ethics.

    Chaotic could perhaps boost Bluff. Lawful maybe Gather Information? Except it's more likely to be a penalty if they aren't themselves Lawful.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Nov 2005
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    Worcestershire, UK

    Default Re: Reputation and alignment [Houserule, 3.PF, E6 - HELP WANTED!]

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    In its current form, note that the Good axis doesn't stack its Diplomacy bonus for talking with another Good creature of the same ethics.
    That is intentional - the idea being that characters with a reputation for being Good get an "always on" bonus to diplomacy, whereas other alignments only get the bonus with creatures of exactly the same alignment.

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    Chaotic could perhaps boost Bluff. Lawful maybe Gather Information? Except it's more likely to be a penalty if they aren't themselves Lawful.
    It's a Pathfinder game at heart, so there is no Gather Information skill - you use Diplomacy to gather information and rumours.

    I was thinking Chaos = bluff, too (it's maybe easier for Choatics to lie without showing signs) - but I also thought maybe Law might boost bluff, because your reputation implies that you won't lie.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Mar 2011
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    Australia

    Default Re: Reputation and alignment [Houserule, 3.PF, E6 - HELP WANTED!]

    I would change the know reputation to be a knowledge based roll, with the DC being [Arbitary number, perhaps 13]-[Reputation]+/-[Other Modifiers...].

    For average joe that's still a int based check, but it makes more sense in my mind than a DC 15 check that means level 6's 'might' be heard of by average joe. Especially given that by level 6 your supposed to be epic. With 13 and the above, by level 6 theres a 50/50 average joe has heard something about you.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Reputation and alignment [Houserule, 3.PF, E6 - HELP WANTED!]

    Good- Diplomacy
    Evil- Intimidate
    Chaos- Bluff
    Law- Sense Motive.

    It makes a certain amount of sense- Good, Evil, and Chaos are typically proactive forces.

    Law, outside of certain movies, is usually reactive- you have to commit an infraction before it moves against you.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Reputation and alignment [Houserule, 3.PF, E6 - HELP WANTED!]

    Regarding knowledge skills used in diplomacy checks: here's the line from Unearthed Arcana, which I'll now add in to the OP -
    "The GM may substitute a Knowledge skill bonus for the Int modifier if he decides the character’s past activities apply to a particular field. For example, if the character were a cleric, Knowledge (religion) might be appropriate."

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
    Good- Diplomacy
    Evil- Intimidate
    Chaos- Bluff
    Law- Sense Motive.

    It makes a certain amount of sense- Good, Evil, and Chaos are typically proactive forces.

    Law, outside of certain movies, is usually reactive- you have to commit an infraction before it moves against you.
    Yes... but you gain the bonus because the target knows your reputation, which changes their attitude slightly towards you.
    That makes it hard to justify Sense Motive: how does your reputation make it easier to understand other people?

    I guess my problem comes down to the fact that there are only three active social skills in PF - Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate - and I have four alignments to work with.
    However, there's nothing to say that we can't have one skill for two alignments... I'm thinking maybe Diplomacy again for Law, because your honourable rep lends weight to your arguments - does that seem sensible?
    Last edited by Altair_the_Vexed; 2013-03-17 at 03:01 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ashtagon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Reputation and alignment [Houserule, 3.PF, E6 - HELP WANTED!]

    If a chaotic character has a reputation for being chaotic, wouldn't that more logically be a penalty to Bluff, since everyone knows they're chaotic?

    I think social skills are too context-driven to say reputation for alignment X gives bonus to skill Y.

    In d20 Modern, reputation was simply a check to see whether your reputation was known - literally, to see if you were famous or not. The exact kind of reputation would be based on RP and past actions, so the typical PC would eventually be famous for being a "murder-hobo".

    The modifier for being famous was always +2 or -2, and it would depend on how that particular PC reacts to your kind of fame. Personally, I'd expand that, so that particularly strong reputations could grant bigger modifiers.

    If I were going to base things on alignment at all, I'd give serious thought to having a reputation for being lawful grant a bonus on Bluff checks. Because, ya know, no one expects that. Plus a bonus on Intimidate checks against chaotic creatures, and Diplomacy with other lawful creatures.

    A reputation for being good might grant bonuses to Diplomacy with good creatures only (and penalties with evil ones), plus penalties for Intimidate with everyone.

    A reputation for evil might grant a bonus to Intimidate and a penalty to Diplomacy.

    A reputation for being chaotic would grant a penalty on your Bluff checks (because people know to watch you), but a bonus on Intimidate against lawful creatures (because that much weirdness is unnerving for them). It could also grant a bonus on Perform checks because your unpredictable antics are more entertaining.

    All reputations should grant penalties to Disguise checks when disguising yourself, and a bonus on Profession when used to generate incomes.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Nov 2005
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    Worcestershire, UK

    Default Re: Reputation and alignment [Houserule, 3.PF, E6 - HELP WANTED!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    If a chaotic character has a reputation for being chaotic, wouldn't that more logically be a penalty to Bluff, since everyone knows they're chaotic?

    I think social skills are too context-driven to say reputation for alignment X gives bonus to skill Y.

    In d20 Modern, reputation was simply a check to see whether your reputation was known - literally, to see if you were famous or not. The exact kind of reputation would be based on RP and past actions, so the typical PC would eventually be famous for being a "murder-hobo".

    The modifier for being famous was always +2 or -2, and it would depend on how that particular PC reacts to your kind of fame. Personally, I'd expand that, so that particularly strong reputations could grant bigger modifiers.

    If I were going to base things on alignment at all, I'd give serious thought to having a reputation for being lawful grant a bonus on Bluff checks. Because, ya know, no one expects that. Plus a bonus on Intimidate checks against chaotic creatures, and Diplomacy with other lawful creatures.

    A reputation for being good might grant bonuses to Diplomacy with good creatures only (and penalties with evil ones), plus penalties for Intimidate with everyone.

    A reputation for evil might grant a bonus to Intimidate and a penalty to Diplomacy.

    A reputation for being chaotic would grant a penalty on your Bluff checks (because people know to watch you), but a bonus on Intimidate against lawful creatures (because that much weirdness is unnerving for them). It could also grant a bonus on Perform checks because your unpredictable antics are more entertaining.

    All reputations should grant penalties to Disguise checks when disguising yourself, and a bonus on Profession when used to generate incomes.
    I know both alignments and social skills are a sticky issue, and applying simple bonuses to them is going to open up a worm can of debate - but I want to make alignment mechanically mean something, and at the same time keep the ruling simple enough to make sure it gets used.

    Complex rules with multiple contingencies tend to either slow play down while we look them up, or get thrown out altogether.
    I really want to keep the reputation bonuses simple and as non-situational as possible - so that rules out having bonuses that change with alignment. I've already got alignment sympathy / antipathy bonuses for Sense Motive, and rep bonus to Diplomacy for having the exact same alignment.

    Agreed - "Law is trustworthy": This was my first gut-feeling / reasoning for why Law ought to get a bonus to Bluff - so I've fixed the OP to show that.

    Regarding penalising Chaos on Bluff, and penalties in general: I have to say no to that - I want to reward players for their alignment choices, never punish them.

    I did think about a rep bonus to Perform for Chaos - but as much as I want to agree, it wouldn't really be applicable to performances where discipline and precision are key.

    In the E6 game, the bonus is going to top out at +3: comparable d20M's and Unearthed Arcana's +2.

    Reputation modifiers to Disguise and Profession make god sense, I'll add those in - thanks.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Orc in the Playground
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    Oct 2012

    Default Re: Reputation and alignment [Houserule, 3.PF, E6 - HELP WANTED!]

    Maybe the Chaotic alignment could get a bonus to Bluff or Disguise?

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