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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Feb 2013

    Default Paladin fix (Core 3.5) PEACH

    Alignment: Lawful Good

    Class Skills
    Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Knowledge (Religion), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive

    Skills Points at 1st Level: (6 + int)*4

    Skills Points at Each Level: 6 + int

    Hit Dice: D10


    Paladin
    Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
    1st
    +1
    +2
    +0
    +0
    Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil
    2nd
    +2
    +3
    +0
    +0
    Shield Mastery, Cure Light Wounds
    3rd
    +3
    +3
    +1
    +1
    Divine Health
    4th
    +4
    +4
    +1
    +1
    Turn Undead
    5th
    +5
    +4
    +1
    +1
    Blessed Vestments, Special Mount
    6th
    +6/+1
    +5
    +2
    +2
    Combat Style, Spellcasting (Lesser)
    7th
    +7/+2
    +5
    +2
    +2
    Vigil
    8th
    +8/+3
    +6
    +2
    +2
    Aura of Inspiration, Cure Moderate Wounds
    9th
    +9/+4
    +6
    +3
    +3
    Holy Aura
    10th
    +10/+5
    +7
    +3
    +3
    Divine Grace
    11th
    +11/+6/+1
    +7
    +3
    +3
    Wholeness of Spirit, Spellcasting (Greater)
    12th
    +12/+7/+2
    +8
    +4
    +4
    Heavy Armour Mastery
    13th
    +13/+8/+3
    +8
    +4
    +4
    Cure Serious Wounds
    14th
    +14/+9/+4
    +9
    +4
    +4
    15th
    +15/+10/+5
    +9
    +5
    +5
    Paladins Oath
    16th
    +16/+11/+6/+1
    +10
    +5
    +5
    Spellcasting (Grand)
    17th
    +17/+12/+7/+2
    +10
    +5
    +x
    18th
    +18/+13/+8/+3
    +11
    +6
    +6
    Cure Critical Wounds
    19th
    +19/+14/+9/+4
    +11
    +6
    +6
    20th
    +20/+15/+10/+5
    +12
    +6
    +6
    Grand Paladin


    Weapon & Armour Proficiencies: Paladins are proficient with all amour types. All Shields, (including Tower Shields), and all Simple, and Martial melee weapons. They are not proficient with any ranged weapons.

    General Note: Regardless of any current or new wordings on the capabilities defined below a Paladin may freely exclude creatures on an individual by individual basis from the affects of the ability and/or spell.

    Authorís Note: It was pointed out some wording of Grand Paladin and other abilities meant allies could be affected. So I included the above to cover all possibilities.

    Spellcasting:

    Starting at 2th level a Paladin may cast spells. All Paladins cast their spells without Somatic, Vocal, or material components and any spell with a base casting time of 1 full round or less may now be cast as a swift action, (you can still utilise the normal casting length if you wish however). In addition a Paladin may utilise her weapon as her foci. A paladin has a caster level equal to her paladin level. A paladin may never utilise metamagic feats. A Paladin is considered a Divine caster and so does not suffer spell failure chances for wearing Armour of any kind.

    A Paladin has 3 types of Spells. Lesser. Greater, and Grand. A Paladin is a spontaneous caster spending 1 spell slot of the appropriate type, (Lesser, Greater, Grand), to cast a spell of the same type. A Paladin knows all spells she is of a level sufficient to cast and that are on her spell lists.

    A Paladin may cast any number of Lesser Spells per day. These are minor spells of limited power. A Paladin Gains access to these spells at 6th level. Saving throws where applicable are made at a DC of 12+Wisdom modifier.

    A paladin may cast a number of Greater spells per day equal to her Paladin level + her wisdom modifier. She gains access to these spells at 11th level. Saving throws where applicable are made at a DC of 15+Wisdom modifier.

    A Paladin may cast a number of Grand spells per day equal to 1 + her wisdom modifier. She gains access to these spells at 16th level. Saving throws where applicable are made at a DC of 18+Wisdom modifier.

    Spell Lists:


    Paladin Spell List
    Lesser Greater Grand
    Bless
    Divine Favor
    Heal
    Bless Water
    Restoration
    Holy Word
    Bless Weapon
    Bears Endurance
    Dictum
    Create Water
    Bulls Strength
    Holy Aura
    Detect Poison
    Catís Grace
    Shield of Law
    Detect Undead
    Eagleís Splendour
    Greater Restoration
    Endure Elements
    Foxís Cunning
    Greater Heroism
    Magic Weapon
    Owlís Wisdom
    Sunburst
    Read Magic
    Remove Paralysis
    Greater Dispel Magic
    Resistance
    Resist Energy
    Undetectable Alignment
    Dispel Magic
    Zone of Truth
    Heal Mount
    Daylight
    Magic Circle against Chaos
    Delay Poison
    Magic Circle against Evil
    Discern Lies
    Greater Magic Weapon
    Prayer
    Remove Blindness/Deafness
    Status
    Remove Curse
    Water Breathing
    Break Enchantment
    Water Walk
    Death Ward
    Purify Food and Drink
    Dispel Evil
    Dispel Chaos
    Neutralize Poison
    Mark of Justice
    True Strike
    Remove Fear
    Shield of Faith
    Consecrate
    Magic Vestment
    Air Walk
    Freedom of Movement
    Searing Light
    Commune
    Undeath to Death
    Refuge
    Heroism
    Holy Smite


    I addition to the above Spell casting abilities a Paladin may cast the following cure spells, (at the indicated levels), a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom Modifier, (the total uses per day cannot exceed her current paladin level).

    Cure Light Wounds (2th level), Cure Moderate Wounds (8th level), Cure Serious Wounds (13th level), Cure Critical Wounds (18th level).

    For the purposes of effects, feats, skills e.t.c. that have as pre-requisites the ability to cast divine spells of a specific level. Treat a paladin as being able to cast divine spells of a spell level equal to half her paladin level, (maximum of 9th).

    Class Features:

    Aura of Good, (Level 1, Ex): As existing SRD.

    Detect Evil, (level 1, Sp): As existing SRD.

    Smite Evil, (level 1, Su): A Paladin is a holy warrior and her attacks are especially dangerous against the countless evil beings that roam in fell places. Whenever making any attack against a creature of evil alignment, a paladin gains a bonus to her Strength modifier, (for the purposes of attack rolls and damage calculations only), of +1. This increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th, +4 at 15th, and +5 at 20th level.

    Once a paladin gains the ability to cast Greater spells she may voluntarily sacrifice one of these spell slots that has not yet been used to improve her smite attacks. This increases the bonus to half the paladins class level. Sacrificing the spell slot counts as having cast that spell, but does not require any additional actions to do. If you wish to sacrifice a spell slot in this manner you must declare you are doing so before making any attack roll/s. However it affects all your attacks regardless of how many you make until the start of your next round.

    Once the Paladin Gains the ability to cast Grand Spells she may sacrifice one of these spell slots in the same way as a standard spell. The bonus is increased to equal to the Paladins level, and all damage reducing or negating affects, (e.g. DR), are ignored. If you wish to sacrifice a spell slot in this manner you must declare you are doing so before making any attack roll/s. However it affects all your attacks regardless of how many you make until the start of your next round.

    Shield Mastery, (level 2, Ex): A Paladin ignores all Armour Check penalties imparted by shields and the dexterity cap of Tower Shields. She may also use a Buckler and a weapon in her off hand in combination without suffering either the attack roll penalty or the loss of the AC bonus for possessing the buckler. She also gains the Improved Shield Bash Feat for free.

    Divine Health, (level 3, Ex): As existing SRD.

    Turn Undead, (level 4, Su): Starting at level 4 a Paladin may turn undead as if she where a cleric of the same level as her paladin level. Unlike a Clericís turn undead a Paladin uses her wisdom modifier rather than her charisma modifier to determine the number of uses she gets per day and as the modifier to the turning check. Starting at level 9 she may also use this ability to turn Evil Outsiders in the same fashion as undead.

    Special Mount, (level 5): As existing SRD. A Paladin possessed of a Special Mount also gains the Mounted Combat feat for free, but only benefits from this free feat when using the special mount.

    Blessed Vestments, (level 5, Ex): Over time a Paladinís holy righteousness begins to permeate into even the equipment she wields.

    At 5th level this ability allows the Paladin to retain half the AC of her armour and shield bonuses against touch attacks. If an effect does not require a touch attack or ordinary attack, but does allow a save, she may instead add the same amount to her save as a bonus.

    At 10th level anyone attempting a melee attack or melee touch attack against the Paladin whilst she is using a shield will suffer a number of points of damage equal to her Wisdom modifier. This damage is considered good aligned for the purposes of DR. he damage occurs regardless of weather the attack hitís or misses, but is applied after the effects of the attack are resolved. A Buckler that is providing an AC bonus whilst wielding a weapon thanks to a Paladins Shield Mastery Rule does count for this purpose.

    Starting at 14th level any weapons wielded by a Paladin gain the Holy property in addition to any they may already have and their enhancement bonus is increased by 2, (+2 bonus if none exists).

    At 18th level the Weapon also gains the Axiomatic Property and the bonus is increased from 2 to 5.

    Combat Style, (level 6, Ex): At 6th level a Paladin must choose a Combat Style. She may either choose: Defender, Vengeance, or Ardent Blade

    At 6th level a paladin using the Defender style who is using a shield gains a +3 modifier to the shieldís base AC and DR 4/. This increases to a +6 AC bonus and DR 8/- at 11th level, and a +9 AC bonus and DR 12/- at 16th level. A Buckler that is providing an AC bonus whilst wielding a weapon thanks to a Paladins Shield Mastery Rule does count for this purpose.

    At 6th level a paladin using the Vengance style doubles the number of base damage dice for the weapon they are using, (E.g. a Short Sword would become 2D6 base damage, a Greatsword would become 4D6 base damage dice). This increases to 3X Damage Dice at 11th level, and 4X Damage Dice at 16th level.

    At 6th level a paladin using the Ardent Blade style who makes a standard attack or a full attack action gains an extra main hand attack at a -5 penalty from her full BAB, and a +2 Shield Bonus to AC. At 11th level the number of bonus attacks she may make when using the full attack action increases from 1 to two and the shield AC bonus increases to +4 AC. At 16th level the number of bonus attacks she may make with both a standard ad a full attack action again increases by 1, (to 2 and 3 respectively), and her shield bonus increases to +6. If the Paladin is possessed of one or more shield AC modifiers from another source, then add the listed shield bonus to the highest pre-existing modifier, in all cases this is considered to be a modification to the base AC bonus of the highest modifier.

    Regardless of the style chosen you also gain the following bonus feats. At 6th level you gain two weapon fighting and power attack for free. At 11th level you gain Improved two Weapon Fighting and Cleave for free. At 16th level you gain Great Cleave and Greater Two Weapon Fighting for free. You do not need to meet any of the normal prerequisites to use these feats.

    Vigil, (level 7, Su): Holding Vigil over a fallen allies remains is a time honoured tradition amongst many, Paladin or no. But for a Paladin there is a special spiritual ritual, an affirmation that they will be neither forgotten, nor will their sacrifice allowed to be in vain. As she grows in power such vigilís may call down the blessing of her patron upon the deceasedís remains, preserving and protecting them, or even on occasion returning the to life so they may continue to serve. You may not benefit from their effe

    Starting at 7th level when a paladin holds a vigil, (see below for specifics), over the body of a fallen ally the body becomes subject to the effects of a Gentle Repose Effect and a Consecrate effect. This effect persists until dispelled or the individual is returned to life.

    At 10th Level if the remains are able to be returned to life via a Raise Dead spell, they are affected as if such a spell had been cast on them. This affect cannot occur more than once per week. Otherwise the effect functions as per the 5th level variant.

    At 13th level the Raise Dead effect is replaced by a Resurrection effect, the once per week limit remains.

    At 16th level the Resurrection effect is replaced by a True Resurrection effect, the once per week limit remains.

    Holding a Ritual, Requirements: To hold a ritual a Paladin, (or cleric, or other appropriate individual), should arrange the remains in the appropriate death pose for the individualís deity. The most common for warriors fallen in battle is to place them on their back, sword laid on their breast, with the sword point towards their feet, pommel resting just below the chin, hands across the chest, often gripping the sword point. Obviously if the individual dies in an especially violent fashion very limited remains may be available. The above is simply an example of ideal circumstance. In any case to hold a vigil a paladin must then sit stand or kneel in prayer as is appropriate for their deity, (kneeling with weapon in hand, point down is a common pose), next to the body from the time it is arranged appropriately, (which should be as soon as it is physically safe to do so), till sunup of the next morning. (Some non-evil deities do posses an affinity for the night, and as such the DM may rule in that case it will be till the next sundown, other conditions are also possible based on the deity in question if the DM feels this is appropriate they should inform the player at character creation of any such things). A Paladin holding a vigil may rise only to defend themselves, the fallen remain, their remaining allies. Or another suitable individual in the immediate area in need of aid. And in fact must do so, (as per the paladins code), if such a circumstance arises. (For example a Paladin who has returned the remain of a fallen warrior to a local monetary to hold vigil could freely rise to fight and defend the monetary if it was attacked by bandits).

    Aura of Inspiration, (level 8, Su): The paladin grants all allies within 60ft a +1 Resistance bonus to all saves (Fort, Reflex, Will). This increases to a +2 at 7th level, a +3 at 11th level, a +4 at 15th level, and +5 at 19th level. A Paladin does benefit from this herself.

    Holy Aura, (level 9, Su): Beginning at level 9 a Holy Aura begins to surround the Paladin. As the paladin grows in strength and devotion, so too does the Aura.

    At 9th level the power of the aura becomes so great that any undead or evil outsider wishing to move to within a number of squares equal to the Paladins Wisdom modifier, must pass a will save on a DC of 10 + Paladin level + Wisdom Modifier. If they fail the save they may either end their movement outside the area of effect, or move inside it but suffering a number of points of damage equal to the Paladins level, this damage is considered good aligned for the purposes of DR. A creature affected by this affect that starts itís round in the Area of effect must make a will save or suffer damage. Regardless of other factors a target only makes one will save per turn and only ever suffers damage once per turn from a single aura. Note that a successful save does not remove the need to make saves in subsequent turns, it just negates the effect for this turn.

    At 13th level the aura now affects all evil aligned creatures and the damage is doubled. In addition Evil Outsiders and Undead no longer receive a save vs the affect.

    Divine Grace, (level 10, Su): At 10th level a Paladin may add her wisdom modifier to one of the following things as an immediate action, this use of an immediate action does not count against the normal 1 per turn limit, but you may only declare one such immediate action with regards to divine grave per turn.

    She may add it to her strength modifier for the purposes of attack rolls and damage rolls. Her effective caster level for the purposes of all spell effects. All her saves, (Fort, Reflex, Will). Or her AC.

    Wholeness of Spirit, (level 3, Ex): At 11th level a paladin gains a number of bonus hit points for all current and future levels equal to her wisdom modifier. This is retroactive.

    Heavy Armour Mastery, (level 12, Ex): Starting at level 12 a paladin no longer suffers the Armour check penalty from any heavy armour she wears. In addition her extensive knowledge of itís many strengths and weaknesses grants any Heavy Armour she wears a +2 to itís base AC.

    The Paladins Oath, (level 15, Ex):At 15th level a Paladin must choose one of the following oaths.

    Authors Note: Couldnít resist a bit of Latin, sorry to any Latin scholars out there, used google translate so Iím sure itís more than a littlie error strewn.

    The Oath of the Tireless:

    Tenebris Honorem Mortis (To Darkness, To Honour, To Death): The Paladin gains the Diehard feat and permanent immunity to death effects. In addition she may ignore the restrictions on actions without suffering a penalty for a number of rounds per day equal to her paladin level. These rounds do not have to be consecutive, (in other words if healed above 0 she ceases to expend rounds at the moment she is healed). She may also continue to act and fight in this manner if reduced to -10HPís or less for a number of rounds per day equal to her wisdom modifier. These rounds also do not have to be consecutive, (in other words if healed above -10 she ceases to expend rounds at the moment she is healed). Note that for both types of affect if the paladin is reduced below a threshold, she does not expend a round until the start of her round. As such if she is healed above the threshold before her round she does not expend a use.

    Finally she may once per turn use a cure spell on herself only as an immediate action, this use of an immediate action does not count against the normal 1 per turn limit, but you may only declare one such immediate action with regards to oath of the tireless per turn.

    The Oath of Judgment:

    Facta Sum Iudicium Tuum Facta Sum Prosternere (I Am Become Your Judgment, I Am Become Your Doom): When the paladin successfully hits an evil creature, she may expend one daily use of any one of her cure spells to deal damage equal to the spell. She may only use this ability once per weapon each round, though if she wields 2 or more weapons each may benefit from it separately.

    In addition her cure spells now inflict 2 points of damage per point of healing expended if cast on a target to which it deals damage. This has no effect on targets it heals.

    The Oath of the Protector:

    Ego Sum Custodem, Protectorem, Medicus, Adjutorem (I Am The Guardian, The Protector, The Healer, The Helper): At will a paladin may choose to take half of the damage suffered by any ally from a single attack upon herself. This damage is reduced by any DR and Energy resist effects she may posses, but is otherwise unaffected by any other defences she posses. Only allies within 60ft of her may be affected in this way but there is no upper limit to how many times she may utilise this ability.

    In addition her cure spells now allows heal twice the actual points expended. This applies only to the healing uses of the spell, damage to undead or other negative energy creatures occurs at the normal 1 point per point expended.
    .

    Grand Paladin, (level 20, Ex): A Paladin of great renown, faith, and power will ultimately gain a more direct connection to her god than almost any being can hope to achieve. Such a connection makes them akin to a living avatar of their god. His will and power made manifest through her actions.

    Upon reaching 20th level any class abilities or spells that only affect evil or chaotic creatures, (but not those limited to undead or evil outsiders), will now affect any creature regardless of alignment. This includes the effects of the Holy and Axiomatic properties granted to her weapons by the Blessed Vestments rule. In addition any feature that specifies Evil Outsider will now affect any Outsider, regardless of alignment. She may also spontaneously convert any spell she knows that possesses a mass version to itís mass form upon casting. She may not convert cure or inflict spells to their mass versions when using them via the Oath of Judgment however.


    EDIT1:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Okay, what did I do now?

    Lets start with the big change, I threw lay on hands out. There was some controversy around it from all feedback so I realised my attempt to address itís terrible scaling beyond the first couple of levels just wasnít working. Iíd though of doing it via granted cure spells as spell like abilities right back at the start, but switched to the existing form with cure spells thrown in as separate spellcasting because I wanted to try and keep the existing style as much as possible. Given the complaints I decided to throw the whole thing out, putting it back to that basis. However since Iíd already got the whole set of cure spell built into the spellcasting I just moved everything down in levels and threw cure critical wounds in as a higher level form of this. It was simpler than re-writing everything.

    I dropped Shield Mastery in to 2nd level as a lay on hands replacement since it provided me with a way to address the whole ďwhat use is X if your not using a shieldĒ comments. Now you can use a buckler to qualify whilst going DW or 2-hander at no penalty. Throwing in Improved Shield bash felt like a sensible freebie.

    I cleared up a number of bad wordings that should now address a number of issues raised there and put the per week limit and a few other such bits in on various things that where missing them. I also re-worded how freebie feats are handed out so that they look more like the free add-onís they are than important features.

    A couple of notable changes come in the form of how oaths interact with Cure spells. Dropping Lay on Hands meant they now have to work with cure spells, this is a bit of an upgrade for them, but perhaps makes for a more balanced interaction so people will go for the pure damage options less. I meddled with the combat styles to address some issues too and threw a few more free feats in to cover some more common picks that nearly everyone takes. Also re worded blessed vestments 5th level so that ardent bladeís AC bonus does apply, does mean some other forms now apply as well but fair tradeoffs.

    I also tabled up the spell lists.

    Not touched the capstone yet or skills. Want to have a think on the former and a bit more discussion on the latter.
    Last edited by Carl; 2014-07-26 at 04:27 PM. Reason: Table Code Fix

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Paldain fix, WIP PEACH

    Anyone? Seems to have gotten forgotten...

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Male

    Default Re: Paldain fix, WIP PEACH

    Call me biased, or reactionary, or whatever, but I dislike PEACHing a fix that's got a typo right there in the title.

    Also, WIP often signifies that you aren't really done enough for people to fully critique things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in"Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid"Use of gray may indicate nitpickingGreen is sincerity

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Paldain fix, WIP PEACH

    Aghhh, thanks for pointing to title out. it's WIP because i ran out of idea's for the last few levels, actually only 1 or 2 levels have nothing in them technically. It's just like most i hate dead levels.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    anacalgion's Avatar

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    May 2010
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    Default Re: Paladin fix PEACH

    PEACHing!

    First things first, the skill list seems short, and 6+int skill points seems a little high. The paladin doesn't dabble in as many things as the bard or the factotum, so I'd suggest 4+int skill points per level. Feels more logical to me.

    On the other hand, the skill list seems a little sparse. You might consider adding a few more skills, such as Intimidate or Profession.

    Hit dice seems fine, although as a 'defender of the innocent' and all that, I bet the paladin wouldn't mind a D12.

    BAB, Saves, all that seems fine.

    Class features. Here we go. First thing I noticed; did you intend to remove the spellcasting? Because that's a serious nerf. Already we're looking at a much weaker paladin.

    Smite evil feels a little weird. Any particular reason you gave them a bonus to their strength modifier (which is a little out of the ordinary) instead of just damage and to hit bonuses? Also, smite is significantly weaker than the standard 3.5 smite, as level-to-damage is vastly superior to what you're suggesting. Again, why the nerfs?

    You mention casing grand and greater spells, but this paladin doesn't have the ability to cast spells, and I'm not sure what grand and greater spells are. Any chance you forgot to add something?

    I see that you changed lay on hands to key off of wisdom now. The paladin is traditionally a charisma based class, is there a reason you did that? Also, it heals for an incredible amount now. At second level, a paladin with 18 wisdom can heal 100 hit points, and it scales quite well. You should consider toning this down a little, as is it's far too strong.

    Turn undead seems fine, as does the mount.

    Blessed vestment seems decent, but I'm not quite getting the fluff, and it forces the paladin to use a shield in order to gain the 10th level benefits, which is a downside.

    Two weapon fighting? What? You already made it clear with blessed vestment that you want paladins to fight with a sword and shield (or mace and shield or whatever), so why give them two weapon fighting (and improved two weapon fighting)? There's also no fluff on this, so I don't really understand what it's for.

    The styles seem alright, but the critical multiplier increase is both too strong and not useful, as critical hits are pretty rare, but increasing the damage multiplier by 4 makes astronomical crits easy to reach. Both the defender and ardent blade give shield bonuses, which again is strange with two weapon fighting at the same level, and additional attacks at half base attack bonus on standard action attacks are too strong. As the styles currently stand, there's no reason to take defender, as the other two give incredibly strong benefits.

    The vigil needs limited uses or some sort of tweak, as free true resurrections are a little overpowered.

    I'm not entirely sure why you changed aura of courage to give save bonuses, as it is traditionally one of the paladin's most iconic abilities; the ability to ignore fear in times of danger.

    The holy aura seems strong, but not overly so. Neat idea.

    Divine grace is another classic ability, and while I can see why you moved it back a few levels to discourage dips, I'm not too sure why you didn't leave it as a bonus to all saves. Again, significantly weaker, and a pain out of combat. Unless the paladin is going to declare it every six seconds, it's useless against traps and in surprise rounds.

    Is wholeness of spirit retroactively applied? You should clear this up.

    The oaths seem basically alright, except for the oath of judgement. The inflict spells are generally the domain of evil deities, and so it feels a little weird on a paladin.

    The capstone is cool in theory, but not too useful. How often does the paladin need to beat up good or neutral people (or outsiders)? It could come up occasionally, but I don't see it being very useful, unless the paladin really hates neutral people (or animals, for that matter).

    Aaaand spells. Alright, the smite bit makes a bit more sense now, but your classification of them doesn't. Spells are grouped by levels (1,2,3, etc) rather than by titles, or whatever you want to call your lesser, greater, grand progression. Might want to add a spells section to the table as well, and tidy that up.

    Alright, that's about it. I'll keep an eye on this, you've got some neat ideas and I'd like to see where you go with them.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Paladin fix PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by anacalgion View Post
    PEACHing!

    First things first, the skill list seems short, and 6+int skill points seems a little high. The paladin doesn't dabble in as many things as the bard or the factotum, so I'd suggest 4+int skill points per level. Feels more logical to me.

    On the other hand, the skill list seems a little sparse. You might consider adding a few more skills, such as Intimidate or Profession.

    Hit dice seems fine, although as a 'defender of the innocent' and all that, I bet the paladin wouldn't mind a D12.

    BAB, Saves, all that seems fine.

    Class features. Here we go. First thing I noticed; did you intend to remove the spellcasting? Because that's a serious nerf. Already we're looking at a much weaker paladin.

    Smite evil feels a little weird. Any particular reason you gave them a bonus to their strength modifier (which is a little out of the ordinary) instead of just damage and to hit bonuses? Also, smite is significantly weaker than the standard 3.5 smite, as level-to-damage is vastly superior to what you're suggesting. Again, why the nerfs?

    You mention casing grand and greater spells, but this paladin doesn't have the ability to cast spells, and I'm not sure what grand and greater spells are. Any chance you forgot to add something?

    I see that you changed lay on hands to key off of wisdom now. The paladin is traditionally a charisma based class, is there a reason you did that? Also, it heals for an incredible amount now. At second level, a paladin with 18 wisdom can heal 100 hit points, and it scales quite well. You should consider toning this down a little, as is it's far too strong.

    Turn undead seems fine, as does the mount.

    Blessed vestment seems decent, but I'm not quite getting the fluff, and it forces the paladin to use a shield in order to gain the 10th level benefits, which is a downside.

    Two weapon fighting? What? You already made it clear with blessed vestment that you want paladins to fight with a sword and shield (or mace and shield or whatever), so why give them two weapon fighting (and improved two weapon fighting)? There's also no fluff on this, so I don't really understand what it's for.

    The styles seem alright, but the critical multiplier increase is both too strong and not useful, as critical hits are pretty rare, but increasing the damage multiplier by 4 makes astronomical crits easy to reach. Both the defender and ardent blade give shield bonuses, which again is strange with two weapon fighting at the same level, and additional attacks at half base attack bonus on standard action attacks are too strong. As the styles currently stand, there's no reason to take defender, as the other two give incredibly strong benefits.

    The vigil needs limited uses or some sort of tweak, as free true resurrections are a little overpowered.

    I'm not entirely sure why you changed aura of courage to give save bonuses, as it is traditionally one of the paladin's most iconic abilities; the ability to ignore fear in times of danger.

    The holy aura seems strong, but not overly so. Neat idea.

    Divine grace is another classic ability, and while I can see why you moved it back a few levels to discourage dips, I'm not too sure why you didn't leave it as a bonus to all saves. Again, significantly weaker, and a pain out of combat. Unless the paladin is going to declare it every six seconds, it's useless against traps and in surprise rounds.

    Is wholeness of spirit retroactively applied? You should clear this up.

    The oaths seem basically alright, except for the oath of judgement. The inflict spells are generally the domain of evil deities, and so it feels a little weird on a paladin.

    The capstone is cool in theory, but not too useful. How often does the paladin need to beat up good or neutral people (or outsiders)? It could come up occasionally, but I don't see it being very useful, unless the paladin really hates neutral people (or animals, for that matter).

    Aaaand spells. Alright, the smite bit makes a bit more sense now, but your classification of them doesn't. Spells are grouped by levels (1,2,3, etc) rather than by titles, or whatever you want to call your lesser, greater, grand progression. Might want to add a spells section to the table as well, and tidy that up.

    Alright, that's about it. I'll keep an eye on this, you've got some neat ideas and I'd like to see where you go with them.
    Huge thank you for the look see.

    1. SKP's where based on some comments in a thread i put up discussing the paladin. They noted that even at 4+int most martial types will dump int so hard they still only get 1 which is insufficient. I left Sthe list unchanged as whilst sparse it didn't jump out at me as the area in need of most change ;).

    2. Heh, true enough but given everything else i felt leaving it was for the best, was a definite consideration in the early stages though.

    3. right, glad they're no issue.

    4. You noticed the spellcastng further down, will comment there.

    5. It makes the damage scale with weapon size whilst being the simplest to describe, (i don't see paladins going for weapon finesse much either).

    6. Can you explain how you got 100? I get a 4 modifier plus 2 levels for 6 * 10 for a total of 60, (and even with a +10 modifier and 20 levels only a total of 300 at the top end).

    7. I keyed off wisdom because when choosing between the various stats a paladin wants to focus on i thought about the traditional image of a paladin, and whilst some, (particularly the main IRL individual your likely to think of), are charismatic, the majority are not. They may inspire through deeds sure, but not commonly by words or good looks. That said i wanted to avoid the dumb paladin trope as they are traditionally a touch book worm ish.

    8.Fair enough.

    9. I'll comment on the shield thing further down. Otherwise glad you liked it.

    10. Ok TWF and styles. The whole point is to let a paladin choose between the to varying degree's You can basically have the traditional sword and board type, the good old aragorn style 2-hander wielder, (not that he's really a paladin but he makes a good visual image :p), or the crazy : dual wield. Originally i had the vengeance keyed to 1-handers only and the ardent keyed to 2-handers only but i disliked the restrictiveness of that. Half BAB was an attempt to offset the power of getting the full lot on a standard action. Guess i'll have to go the complicated route of some on standard and all on full.

    11. Good catch, a victim of my disappearing resolve late on as i bogged down, supposed to be 1 a week but i didn't put it in.

    12. Several factors. First and rather simply, there so many other sources of save bonuses that a paladin can become virtually immune to everything that offers a save, that's strong enough that immunities on top was maybe overboard, didn't want to overdo it. The second part is that the image of the fearless paladin whilst valid is no different to the image of the unstoppable berserker, or several other similar images that apply to other classes. Yet the majority get high resistance, rather than total immunity, (Disease and Poison seem to be the only regularly handed out ones). I didn't feel it was fair to treat the paladin as special here.

    13. Glad you like it, it's a very stereotypical paladin thing to be harmful to evil to be around but i didn't want to overdo it.

    14. Hmm i'd forgotten about that, good point, i did intend you to be able to benefit in surprise rounds. It's part of my whole stick of having a more customisable paladin so that you can take any style you want, rather than being restricted.

    15. I can't find the quote but i'm pretty sure somewhere on the SRD there's a line about Con Modifier changes always being retroactive, but i'll add a clarification since at least one person has forgotten that.

    16. That's kind of the point of the judgement one. It's an inherently dark one because the paladin is turning all that good into destruction. It's sort of a way to play a paladin who's skirting the line, or if your in that kind for setting represent good is not nice.

    17. Bear in mind that the mass versions of the heal/cure spells alone add up to a considerable amount of oomph. Also the thinking here is that restricting the paladin to evil only if things continue into the epics is dangerously close to being overly restrictive on the DM, i'd bring it in earlier but i'm worried about the power and it's harder to justify thematically.

    18. Ok, i didn't table the spells because i wasn't sure how best to display them, if you think i should table them that's ok.

    The classification is down to one simple thing. I'm deliberately violating several rules regarding spells here anyway, so the standard system simply isn't suitable. Spells DC's high level spells in low level slots and a totally non-standard progression in terms of numbers. Not to mention the very mixed levels of the lists. Using the existing system means writing a bunch of exceptions and creating a bunch of rules for those exceptions which open all kinds of loopholes. This gives you a very firmly defined system that achieves my goals. It's actually inspired by the warlock invocations system which is another variant spell casting system in D&D. I can go through the details of the design goals if you wish btw.


    Hope that helps, i'll go in and do some editing though may be this time tomorrow before it's done, for now though i'll move the spellcasting section up to avoid your confusion for anyone else:).
    Last edited by Carl; 2013-04-10 at 05:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Paladin fix PEACH

    Do they get their entire list as known?
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    Default Re: Paladin fix PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by anacalgion View Post
    The capstone is cool in theory, but not too useful. How often does the paladin need to beat up good or neutral people (or outsiders)? It could come up occasionally, but I don't see it being very useful, unless the paladin really hates neutral people (or animals, for that matter).
    "With enemies you know where you stand, but with Neutrals? Who knows? It sickens me." - Zapp Brannigan

    But on with PEACHing:

    1. Alignment: I really wish it would be a bit less restrictive. Either adding NG, CG, or even LN to the allowed list. Otherwise it seems like it should be more of a prestige class.

    2. Skills: The bonus points are nice, but the list is far too small. They should have climb, jump, swim, listen, spot, search, use rope, and intimidate at the least. Bluff could also be useful (feinting in combat), as could escape artist (though some monster grapple checks far exceed any modifier you could get.)

    3. HD: d10 is nice, but I second D12

    4. BAB an saves: They should bump up to a good will save, but otherwise still good.

    5. Proficiencies: Great that they get tower shields, but why no ranged? Does that extend to throwing weapons?

    6. Spells: Why the massive change? Are you going to rewrite all spells so that they work for those levels? Otherwise some will be strictly better than others. Also, additional slots for cure spells are nice, but the spells are still weak. Why is their casting based off wisdom when they are spontaneous casters (favored soul, the spontaneous cleric, is based on CHA)? Why no verbal or somatic components when they still need materials and foci? Why no metamagic (Which is subpar for them anyways)? On the other hand, nice to have Battle Blessing for free.

    7. Smite: A bit complicated and far too weak. You are unlikely to use any spells in this manner until they are obselete (greater spells once you get grand spells), thus making it weaker than normal smite evil. Also, why do they still need detect plot (detect evil) at will when this is now passive? At least the bonus is untyped. Also, why not just state bonus to attack and damage? It says the same thing in fewer words, and causes less confusion.

    8. Lay on hands: Agree that this is way too much. I would say no more than x5

    9. Turning: Like these, but why not make it, along with all other abilities, based on CHA? Why does it take more energy to damage undead than it does to heal living creatures? The only difference is how the energy interacts with the creature. Also, is there a save to halve or negate the damage? Otherwise you can 1shot the BBEG lich/vampire with this for little effort (Touch AC tends to be really low, making this essentially auto-hit).

    10. Mount: Well, at least they get one feat for free. Still would take ACFs over this ability.

    11. Blessed Vestments: Like the addition to touch, but why saves? Does the enhancement bonus allow a weapon to be +10? If I don't use a shield, the level 10 ability becomes useless.

    12. Combat Style:
    Defender: Great for defense, but S&B is still a weak choice.
    Ardent Blade: Extra attack at half BAB is... meh. More likely to miss than not.
    Vengeance: I would choose this style every time. Note that the base ability only mentions the damage dice increasing, but not the critical multiplier. How does this interact with Kaorti resin (Any weapon made with it has a x4 crit, regardless of base crit)?

    13. Vigil: Free true res 1/week is... acceptable, but powerful.

    14. Aura of Courage: Why no immunity to fear? Why to all saves and not just vs. fear? What is courageous about jumping out of the way or hiding (reflex)?

    15. Holy Aura: Does the affected creature have to continue making saves after a successful save? DC is far too high, though the damage is minor. Why not just make it auto damage once/round? When it doubles, it gets a bit too good, though.

    16. Divine Grace: I'll second the complaints on this. Does it affect all saves at once, or do you have to choose one? Again, why not just state to attack and damage? Also, I think you mean to say turn where you state round, as rounds start with the first initiative which may not be yours. You should just state you may add it as a free action, since free actions are only usable on your turn.

    17. Wholeness of Spirit: Again, to avoid confusion simply put "The paladin gains an additional number of hit points equal to her wisdom modifier for each hit die she has." Otherwise it is nice.

    18. Heavy Armor Mastery: Nice, but seems to be out of the blue and doesn't really fit the theme (it's more of what a fighter should get). Not saying I don't like it, but it is weak for this level.

    19. Oath of Tireless: Diehard at this level is meh, but I like how you can keep fighting below -10. What happens if they drop below -10, but are healed above it before their rounds run out? the LoH should be changed to immediate action, though you do state it can be used even when it is not your turn. What happens with SoD's?

    20. Oath of Judgment: "When the paladin successfully hits an evil creature, she may expend one daily use of her cure spells to deal damage equal to the spell. She may only use this ability once per weapon each round." Clarifies the text to what I think you are trying to say. I would probably choose this one every time.

    21. Oath of Protector: Other than some typos, it's a nice ability. Would rather see it a lot earlier with an upgrade to full damage later (much like the knight's shield other ability).

    22. Grand Paladin: Yay, now the paladin deals 40 damage per round, no save, to her allies! Wait... I would change this capstone to something else. Maybe DR/energy resistance? Or spell resistance? Or even a death attack vs. evil or undead creatures (that specifically affects them)?

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    So I'll post some more in depth thoughts later, but I'll give you this for now. If you want the paladin to be able to choose combat styles and so on and so forth, don't force them into choices. If I decided to go sword and board, those TWF feats aren't going to help too much. Same with 2H. Why not just give them bonus feats? Say a fighter bonus feat every 4 levels or so. Maybe make them count as a fighter of half their level, or level -4 or something, just to give the paladin some options. That helps them out more, because as a martial character they're already feat starved.

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    Default Re: Paladin fix PEACH

    Okay sorry this has been forgotten a bit, not been sleeping well last few days so been catching up on an afternoon more than normal.

    OP has been updated BTW

    Some quick replies to the two new posters.

    @Anacalgion: The main reason for handling them the way i have is so you don't have to spend feats on them. If i intend you to actually use given feats either the majority, or a moderate portion of the time i'll hand them out for free at no cost, if you don't use them it costs you nothing, if you do you don't have to spend feats to get them. I actually considered handing out improved Shield Bash for the same reason TBH. I just wasn't sure where to put it without unnecessary cluttering et al. With TWF i expect a moderate portion to go that route so it seemed fair to throw them in as a freebie.

    I'm also cautious about handing out bonus feats for the simple reason that i don't expect them to be significant to the paladins theme or capabilities. Their there only as a means to let you tweak the paladin in a direction you want. Now a fair argument can be made that 6 isn't quite enough for that mind. But i don't expect feats or lack thereof to have significant power effects on the paladin beyond that.

    @Gunbladeknight:

    1. This was one of the few things i had thought off that got dropped in the finial few days due to lack of willpower on my part, i intended to provide variant rules for each type, (and maybe even evil paladins, i.e. blackguards), at the end as well as expand the code a bit. I wanted to finish the job first though.

    2.Like i said i didn't see anything inherently broken in their skill list so i moved onto other area's, I'm certainly considering them though given the feeback.

    3. I think i answered this one earlier so i'll skip over.

    4. I agree a case can be made for a good will save, but given all the bonuses you get i felt doing so was overboard, i even seriously contemplated for a while brining fort down.

    5. Name me a paladin you see using dirty cowardly weapons. Oh wait. I'm sure there are examples out there of Paladins that do, and you can even build a good personal background around it, but it's not in my usual vision of Paladins so i left them to players to pick up if they really want them.

    6. Care to point some examples out, bearing in mind that many spells are there as pure utility, some spells will absolutely see heavy use because their powerful, whilst others are explicitly there because they're thematically good and have some limited but potential uses. The only one's i can spot real issues with are the remove and break spells because restoration and dispel magic do pretty much everything they do as far as i can see, but i added the latter two rather late on so didn't spot it till you just said. Good catch on foci :). I'll throw out the material components too, i wasn't sure that wouldn't be going overboard that's all. Wisdom was because that's their chosen primary mental stats and because as martial type they already want at least strength anyway. I decided on no metamagic because that raises the question of how it interacts with my spells system. Since i never intended the paladin to match a cleric as a spellcaster anyway, (just have more utility via cast at will and spontaneous casting), it didn't seem like too bad a trade-off.

    7.This is what writing it as a straight attack damage bonus looks like:

    Whenever making any attack against a creature of evil alignment, a paladin gains a bonus to her attack and damage rolls of +1, If wielding a light weapon the damage bonus is reduced by half, (minimum 1), and if wielding a 2-handed weapon, (double weapons only count if wielded in 2-hands with only the one end in use), it increases to 1.5 times the listed value. This increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th, +4 at 15th, and +5 at 20th level.
    Now which is shorter and simpler to understand?

    As far as the power goes. bear in mind it's a constant passive bonus to all attacks you make, sure it's not very powerful compared to the old form. But the old form was usable a few times per day. I do understand where your coming from on the spells point. It was more an idea to give you more options, and honestly it works just fine IMO, sure you'll probably preffer not to spend the spell's, but if all your looking for is a quick and dirty boost for a round, then this works quite well. In fact it's actually rather powerful, it's just a question of weather you want to make the utility tradeoff that goes with it.

    Certainly i agree there's some room for adjustment in there, but i don't want to go overboard either.

    8. Since this seems contentious i've decided to go the alternate route i had originally. See the OP.

    9.I already went through the Cha vs Wis thing earlier so i'm not going to repeat myself on it. As for the rest, i have no clue what your getting at there, it's the same a a cleric bar the governing stat.

    10. Like i said the whole mount is free, it's not part of my balancing equations at all so it doesn't really matte to me how bad the mount is TBH.

    11. Not all spells use touch attacks, so saves deal with it being ineffective vs some spells. And yes it lets it go up to +10, and the 10th level ability was thrown in so that all equipment types are covered.

    12. I've only got core to go off so the resin was an unknown factor to me. I've decided to follow the previous posters thought of dropping the crit multiplier though. I've also updated the other styles in liue of yours and others feedback. Cheers.

    13. nice.

    14. Maybe i should r-name it then, the point is it represents the inspiring ability of a Paladin, their ability through action to push those around them to greater heights whilst their own faith pushes themselves to greater deeds. As i said i can't really justify giving immunities to the paladin when so many others who could justify them don't get them. That's just power creep.

    15. Well things like save DC's are what i want feedback on, what do you think is fairer? Also yes a successful save does not immunise you against it. You don't stop being an evil being and the paladins aura doesn't stop being harmful just because you made a save. A save just represents the creature being able to forge on and continue functioning despite what the aura is doing to them.

    16. Yes all saves, I'll update the wording to clarify.

    17. I simply wanted to avoid questions any abilities that affect con contribution to HP's would create but fair enough.

    18. A Paladin is a heavy armour users so it's perfectly appropriate IMO. It's there for just one reason TBH. Making heavy armour worth it to a paladin, (it also by extension makes dex less vital, which is no bad thing).

    19. Good catch, you only expend "rounds" when you are below the relevant threshold. So getting healed back would stop you expending rounds till you drop to -10 or less again. I wanted to avoid immediate action usage here to avoid it interfering, i guess i could state immediate and then doesn't count against your limit of 1 immediate action per turn though. SoD's are what they are but by definition they're death effect and a paladin gets Death Ward as a basic spell. I could add immunity to death effects in though if you think it's not too OTT.

    20. Cheers, good choice of wording :).

    21. Like i said in a prior post, i'm out to let you build different styles of paladin, so giving you a lesser version of this earlier has distinct issues with needing lower powered forms of all the other oaths and bringing those in at lower levels as well. That also happens to clutter up the lower levels which isn't ideal, though acceptable. Also hope i got all the typo's.

    22. Heh good catch on that first part, (though how did you get 40), all fixed now i hope in my update. As for the capability. I started this just with the concept of giving out the extra alignment affects. Tacked the spell effect on because i was getting worried certain capabilities would start to lag a little more than was desired by this point. hats not to say your idea's are bad. But we've got near enough 6 empty levels to fill, so there's no need to drop them on the last level. In addition a couple of your idea's fall afoul of existing class features. DR is a nice idea but it interferes with the Defender style, i could allow stacking but that could result in rather insane amounts of DR accumulating which is a concern. Likewise between Heavy Armour Mastery and Blessed Vestments your already looking, (With a +3dex, Ring of Protection, and Mithril full plate), at a minimum touch AC of 23, that's not trivial for half BAB classes to get through and even clerics or multi-classes will be feeling that AC. Saves against non-touch spells are pretty solid too, 23 for, 17 ref/will before ability modifiers. If the Paladin brings a tower shield or uses a style besides vengeance those raise appreciably. For full Defender with Tower your looking at a touch AC of 30, and saves of 30/24/24. Which is dammed close to going "lol nope" to all spells. And of course that's just with class features, depending on other boosts the saves/AC could be higher still. Plus of course Shield of Law/Holy Aura spells for when you really need SR for a little while.

    Sorry for how long the reply and update took, not been so good the last week, some sleep disorder issues and then a bit of a bad start to the week didn't help.
    Last edited by Carl; 2013-04-17 at 08:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Paladin fix (Core 3.5) PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    5. Name me a paladin you see using dirty cowardly weapons. Oh wait. I'm sure there are examples out there of Paladins that do, and you can even build a good personal background around it, but it's not in my usual vision of Paladins so i left them to players to pick up if they really want them.
    Ranged weapons aren't necessarily cowardly, but they are practical for fighting demons and devils. Just because they are honorable doesn't mean they have to be stupid.

    6. Care to point some examples out, bearing in mind that many spells are there as pure utility, some spells will absolutely see heavy use because their powerful, whilst others are explicitly there because they're thematically good and have some limited but potential uses. The only one's i can spot real issues with are the remove and break spells because restoration and dispel magic do pretty much everything they do as far as i can see, but i added the latter two rather late on so didn't spot it till you just said. Good catch on foci :). I'll throw out the material components too, i wasn't sure that wouldn't be going overboard that's all. Wisdom was because that's their chosen primary mental stats and because as martial type they already want at least strength anyway. I decided on no metamagic because that raises the question of how it interacts with my spells system. Since i never intended the paladin to match a cleric as a spellcaster anyway, (just have more utility via cast at will and spontaneous casting), it didn't seem like too bad a trade-off.
    I don't have any examples, other than what all spells have problems with: Some are inherently better than other same level spells, and some are inherently worse than other same level spells. This is compounded when higher level spells now share slots with lower level spells.

    9.I already went through the Cha vs Wis thing earlier so i'm not going to repeat myself on it. As for the rest, i have no clue what your getting at there, it's the same a a cleric bar the governing stat.
    I think the latter part was supposed to go with LoH and how it was a swift action to heal, but a standard action to harm undead, and how it got so powerful that you could easily destroy any undead. My mind tends to be all over the place.

    10. Like i said the whole mount is free, it's not part of my balancing equations at all so it doesn't really matte to me how bad the mount is TBH.
    Free is nice, but you have to think of what your players would see and think. It's the same reason people are wondering why you gave out the TWF feats. They see it as taking up design space from something that would be useful to all types of paladins. Though being able to dual-wield without having to worry about dex is very nice.

    12. I've only got core to go off so the resin was an unknown factor to me. I've decided to follow the previous posters thought of dropping the crit multiplier though. I've also updated the other styles in liue of yours and others feedback. Cheers.
    For Ardent Blade, do the extra bonus attacks (after the first extra attack) take increasing penalties like normal attacks? If so, I would still take vengeance every time. If not, it would be between those two with a two-handed weapon. Defender has improved with the ability to dual-wield and still gain the benefits, but two-handed fighting is better. Not saying no one would pick Defender, but optimizers are likely to still ignore it.

    15. Well things like save DC's are what i want feedback on, what do you think is fairer?
    The standard save for an ability is 10 + 1/2 hit die + ability modifier. The only exceptions are those from prestige classes which are 10 + prestige class levels + ability modifier. This is due to good saves being 1/2 level + 2, and poor saves being 1/3 level.

    18. A Paladin is a heavy armour users so it's perfectly appropriate IMO. It's there for just one reason TBH. Making heavy armour worth it to a paladin, (it also by extension makes dex less vital, which is no bad thing).
    True, but it still comes late. And why not have it affect all armor in case someone wants to build a light armored paladin, or even for the night ambushes in which the paladin wouldn't have heavy armor on?

    21. Like i said in a prior post, i'm out to let you build different styles of paladin, so giving you a lesser version of this earlier has distinct issues with needing lower powered forms of all the other oaths and bringing those in at lower levels as well. That also happens to clutter up the lower levels which isn't ideal, though acceptable. Also hope i got all the typo's.
    The knight class from the PHB2 (not on the SRD) gains a similar ability, limited to one adjacent ally a round (once declared, it lasts until the end of the round and you can't choose not to take the damage) and non-magical damage only, at level 6 and upgrades to all damage by level 14. This is to give comparison to what your ability is.

    22. Heh good catch on that first part, (though how did you get 40), all fixed now i hope in my update.
    Holy Aura deals damage equal to your level, which doubles at 13th level. It also affects any evil aligned creature by 13th level (though non-undead and non-outsiders get a save). The 20th level ability allows any spell and or ability that only affects evil creatures now affects any creature. So Holy Aura deals 40 damage each round (20 levels x2) to all creatures, with outsiders and undead receiving no save. Unless the paladin can turn it off at will (which you more or less give them), by 20th level they will wipe out a town by walking through it (since it can hit some level 1 commoners before the paladin knows they are there).

    Shield Mastery, (level 2, Ex): A Paladin ignores all Armour Check penalties imparted by shields and the dexterity cap of Tower Shields. She may also use a Buckler and a weapon in her off hand in combination without suffering either the attack roll penalty or the loss of the AC bonus for possessing the buckler. She also gains the Improved Shield Bash Feat for free.
    This is nice, but do they still suffer the attack penalty while wielding a tower shield?

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    Default Re: Paladin fix (Core 3.5) PEACH

    Cheers for the feedback, the reply should be a bit quicker.

    1. It's a fair point, i honestly dislike the stupid paladin trope just as much as you, it just really doesn't fit the image, i also really hate how it encourages dex stacking. That was a another reason for a few things, i wanted to reduce the number of stats a paladin wants to focus on.

    2. That's fair enough. I agree it's an issue TBH, but there's no real ways of compressing what amounts to 6 levels of spells down into 2 lists that avoids this. That said i'd say that lesser spells are ok by virtue of unlimited casting and grand by virtue of being less compressed. It's just the greater spells that are going to suffer strongly from this. Would you agree or did i miss something?

    3. Ahh ;). gotcha.

    4. I guess that's a good point tbh. I'm just not sure how to solve that. Talking of solving, how does the presentation of the free feats look now, does it induce this effect less by seeming part of an existing unique class ability?

    5. Nope, they're all at a -5 from full BAB. Also i think you need to re-read the buckler rules. You can use the buckler hand to help wield a 2-hander. Might also want to consider what vengeance does for a DW build. Given the feats are freebies for it, (so no spend there), and the damage increase bypasses much of the issues with normal DW and DR, so it will probably work out the more dangerous. Plus of course if you want to use oath of judgement, getting 2 uses a round is handy. It was why i tied it to DW initially, it's a huge upgrade for DW, to the point where most people will have few reasons to use anything else besides fluff.

    6. Think i figured out why i set it so high, had another look at this, monsters average a will save of level rather than part level. So my DC gives them a 50/50 pass rate on average. Of course that screws over NPC's that aren't monsters unless they've stacked magic items :(. Further thoughts here?

    7. Well to a degree i wanted to avoid double dipping so i shoved it far up the tree. As for why doesn't it affect lighter armours? Easy, like i said the whole point of this class feature is to make heavy armour superior to everything else the paladin can wear. If i start handing it out for other armours we'll be back to square one with heavy armour having too many downsides to justify it's use. The whole point here was to avoid this by making heavy armour the best a paladin could wear. Theoretically i could have made it a feat i guess, but i decided after my first homebrew that mixing cross class and class tweaks together in was a bad idea.

    8. Hmm, i went and dug up the knight over at D&D tools, i can see your point better now. At the same time though I'm hesitant. Even if your looking at a paladin who got maxed con and wisdom roll's, manual, everything else thrown into con and wisdom and i upgrade the hit dice to d12, a simple sudden maximised fireball cast into a group of 4 or so is going to one shot the paladin if they try to absorb it all. With it's ability to affect the whole group so easily it's rather simple for multiple monsters or AoE blaster spells to put the paladin in the situation of not being able to utilise this much because they just don't have the HP's to take all the damage being meted out. Half damage gives the paladin plenty of ability to protect the whole group whilst keeping the absorb per round under control. It also synergises well with the grand paladin skill at high levels as a simple mass cure can get the whole group mostly healed up, especially now they get cure critical wounds.

    One possibility would be to leave it upto the paladin to decide exactly how many points to absorb in each situation. Useful for all those varied situations, but not sure weather that's going too far. Thoughts?

    I understood where you got the idea of it dealing damage from. I noticed that awkward wording there. Seems another typo slipped by me. Originally both range and damage where based off level, then i decided i proffered a slightly smaller value so switched it to wisdom, but for some reason i missed the damage component, i know i meant to change it and somehow totally missed it on my read through's .

    It's also a bit better than turning on and off as they can exclude targets on an individual basis. So they could have 5 enemies and 3 allies in range and just exclude the allies whilst hitting the enemies.

    9. Good catch, the shield rules, and especially tower shield rules are so eminently bad they're largely forgettable.

    10. Had a though on grand paladin. How about letting them pick a cleric domain from the SRD, they get the domain power and can cast each spell up to 9th level a given number of times per day, (not sure on how many it should be). Is that too strong on top of everything else or ok you think?

    p.s. sorry for delay, between wrestling with insomnia, writing a reply to zieganders latest thread and struggling with a new idea I've not had as much writing time as would be ideal.

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