Improved Finesse [3.5 Feat, PEACH]

[Palanan]

Improved Finesse

Your grace and agility allow your flickering blade to strike with exceptional focus and force.

Prerequisite: Dex 15, base attack bonus +1, Weapon Finesse.

Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, rapier or whip made for a creature of your size category, you may add your Dexterity modifier to the damage on a successful attack roll. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, and if your off-hand weapon is also a light weapon, you may add your Dexterity modifier to the damage on a successful off-hand attack as well.

Special: A fighter may select Improved Finesse as one of his fighter bonus feats.

_______


This is a fairly basic Dex-to-damage feat, essentially Dervish Dance for two-weapon fighters. I've worked it up for a player in my campaign; his character has TWF and an 18 Dex, so it seemed like easy money.

It's a little strange there isn't already a Dex-to-damage feat, somewhere in the great swarm of 3.5 rulebooks. It seems like a natural follow-on from Weapon Finesse.

So, how does this look? Anything I need to add? Anything to watch out for?

[Sylthia]

Is this Dex in place of Str or in addition to?

[Sylthia]

I would also make the off-hand add half the Dex modifier, so it is not superior to Str based damage rolls.

[CinuzIta]

you forgot the short sword in the weapon list

Personally, I think these feat could allow a character to make their Str and Dex stack for damages..a character who is willing to take two feats to use his Dex should be rewarded..also, a character who follows the finesse way will unlikely has an high Str, so I don't think it would be game breaking!:)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cinuzlta
...a character who is willing to take two feats to use his Dex should be rewarded..also, a character who follows the finesse way will unlikely has an high Str, so I don't think it would be game breaking!:)

This is my thinking entirely. Taking Weapon Finesse usually means you've chosen Dexterity over Strength, so allowing the Str bonus to stack hardly unbalances anything.

Sez me, anyway.

[Siosilvar]

There is a Dex-to-damage feat. It's called Shadow Blade, from ToB, and requires a Shadow Hand stance (so two feats or a one-level dip if you're not a Swordsage already) and applies only to unarmed strikes, shortsword, spiked chain, dagger, sai, and siangham. There's another one called Crossbow Sniper that adds half Dex to damage with, appropriately enough, crossbows.

Why there isn't a general feat for Dex to damage like this is more interesting. Personally, I tend to houserule that Dex to hit with finessable weapons is automatic and make Weapon Finesse grant the damage bonus (probably replacing a Strength bonus but not a penalty, since +5 damage is definitely reasonable for a feat, maybe even a touch on the high side).

you forgot the short sword in the weapon list

A short sword is a light weapon. Excluding spiked chain is the more interesting decision.

EDIT: And also finessable weapons from other sources that aren't light; I'm not sure how many there are aside from Elven Thinblade and Courtblade.

[CinuzIta]

A short sword is a light weapon. Excluding spiked chain is the more interesting decision.

Touché!

I think even the whip dagger is finessable, but other than that I don't there are a lot of other weapon..anyway writing in the feat description that its benefits apply to all the weapons that can be used with the weapon finesse feat should remove any problem:)

[Sylthia]

I'd favor the Dex replacing Str. It could make light weapons more damaging than other martial weapons, especially if the off-hand gets the full Dex modifier.

[Siosilvar]

I'd favor the Dex replacing Str. It could make light weapons more damaging than other martial weapons, especially if the off-hand gets the full Dex modifier.

You don't balance feats against things that aren't feats.

Balance against taking another feat. Is this more useful than Power Attack with a two-handed weapon on average? By itself, maybe, but Power Attack + Weapon Focus is probably better than TWF + Weapon Finesse + Improved Finesse, and that's one fewer feat.

To get two stats to attacks with this, you've got to either focus on Strength and Dexterity (so your Constitution will take a hit) or dual-wield, and neither of those are particularly stellar options. Worth it? For some characters, and that's exactly what you're shooting for with new options.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Siosilvar
Excluding spiked chain is the more interesting decision.

My player and I are agreed that the spiked chain is the most nonsensical weapon in the PHB. He's guaranteed to never touch it in-character, so I chose not to include it.

[eftexar]

I pretend that a spike chain is a lengthened version of this or this and then I feel better about it.

But, it is kind of a strange weapon. Taking a look at it again I don't even know how you would fight with it. It doesn't even have rule of cool to make up for it either.

[Just to Browse]

Definitely make it a replacement. If you make it an addition to Strength, two things can happen:

• Dex builds still can't dump strength and will still cry about it. Adding dexterity to damage can only do so much good if you stack it because you're sacrificing damage by removing Str bonus.
• People will be able to take two feats and this and be extra broken at level 1 (and then be worse thereafter, see above).

So you end up unbalancing it on either side of the spectrum, which really isn't fitting. A replacement (like Dead Eye or Shadow Blade) should work just fine.

Also, every single dexterity build will use this forever pretty much. That sets off alarm bells for me, but I'm not sure what to do about it.

[Greenish]

My player and I are agreed that the spiked chain is the most nonsensical weapon in the PHB.

What, are you forgetting Dire Flail?

Definitely make it a replacement. If you make it an addition to Strength, two things can happen:

• Dex builds still can't dump strength and will still cry about it. Adding dexterity to damage can only do so much good if you stack it because you're sacrificing damage by removing Str bonus.
• People will be able to take two feats and this and be extra broken at level 1 (and then be worse thereafter, see above).

So you end up unbalancing it on either side of the spectrum, which really isn't fitting. A replacement (like Dead Eye or Shadow Blade) should work just fine.

You mean Dex builds don't want to dump all Str ever (which doesn't seem too bad).

And I don't see how it would be "broken" at level 1.

[Just to Browse]

What, are you forgetting Dire Flail?

You mean Dex builds don't want to dump all Str ever (which doesn't seem too bad).

And I don't see how it would be "broken" at level 1.

It means low-level characters will not want a str score below 10, which means it does not solve MAD problems since it's not actually removing the necessity of the stat. Since the original problem that weapon finesse exists to absolve is excessive MAD, I'd really rather have it get the job 100% and not get the tiny bit of possible bonus damage later.

At level 1, I can add two stats to damage. So I get can +4 to an attack instead of my previous +2 and have more points from point-buy leftover to build my other stats higher than the guy next to me. And when I'm walking into a fight doing comparable damage at level 1 with +2 con over him, he will not be happy. It's just very asymmetric.

[Greenish]

It means low-level characters will not want a str score below 10, which means it does not solve MAD problems since it's not actually removing the necessity of the stat.

You wouldn't want to dump Str lower than that anyway, lest you be encumbered by your own armour and weapons.

At level 1, I can add two stats to damage. So I get can +4 to an attack instead of my previous +2 and have more points from point-buy leftover to build my other stats higher than the guy next to me. And when I'm walking into a fight doing comparable damage at level 1 with +2 con over him, he will not be happy. It's just very asymmetric.

1st level, damage hardly matters, since most creatures will go down with one successful attack, two at most.


Now lets compare two 1st level fighters: the other picks Weapon Finesse and Imp. Weapon Finesse, the other takes Weapon Focus (Greatsword) and Power Attack. Let's say Fighter A has 16 Str and 16 Dex (20 points with point buy). Fighter B has 16 Str (10 points with point buy).

{TABLE]OOOOO|Attack|Damage
Fighter A|+4|1d8+6
Fighter B|+4|2d6+6[/TABLE]

Now explain to me how Fighter A is overpowered.

[Just to Browse]

You wouldn't want to dump Str lower than that anyway, lest you be encumbered by your own armour and weapons.

You must be using some very heavy light armor...

1st level, damage hardly matters, since most creatures will go down with one successful attack, two at most.

"This is bad, so it's OK to make it worse." is not a solid design philosophy.

{TABLE]OOOOO|Attack|Damage
Fighter A|+4|1d8+6
Fighter B|+4|2d6+6[/TABLE]

Now explain to me how Fighter A is overpowered.

Considering you have picked the strongest of all strong melee damage builds and compared it against an einhander and ignored everything except the things that make the strong melee build strong, of course you're supporting your case.

Let's look at that damage. Fighter B is outputting 13, Fighter A is outputting 10.5 (avg). Of course, that's with really dancing on the edge of the point-buy system, because two 16's really takes away your other good stats, but Fighter B is coming out with +4 better AC (3 dex, 1 shield), +2 reflex, +2 initiative, and since your average enemy at level 1 has an HP between 2 and 8, he will down his targets in almost exactly the same amount of time.

[Greenish]

You must be using some very heavy light armor...

Studded leather 20 lb. Rapier 2lb. Buckler 5 lb. Sling and bullets 5 lb. Total weight 32 lb. or, medium load for anyone with less than 10 Str.

If you dropped the buckler and the sling, you could only just make do with 8 Str, provided you didn't carry almost anything else in battle.

"This is bad, so it's OK to make it worse." is not a solid design philosophy.

My point was that this doesn't make it worse. It's not overpowered.

Considering you have picked the strongest of all strong melee damage builds and compared it against an einhander and ignored everything except the things that make the strong melee build strong, of course you're supporting your case.

What are you blathering about? What should I have picked as the point of comparison, someone with Toughness and Skill Focus (Nosepicking)? Rapier is the strongest weapon Imp. Finesse works with, in case you didn't notice.

Of course I focused on the damage, since you claimed the damage was broken.

Fighter C picks Combat Expertise and Imp. Trip: he has +4 attack, deals 2d4+4 damage, has reach, and can trip.

Let's look at that damage. Fighter B is outputting 13, Fighter A is outputting 10.5 (avg). Of course, that's with really dancing on the edge of the point-buy system, because two 16's really takes away your other good stats, but Fighter B is coming out with +4 better AC (3 dex, 1 shield), +2 reflex, +2 initiative, and since your average enemy at level 1 has an HP between 2 and 8, he will down his targets in almost exactly the same amount of time.

Well, aside from the fact that the average HP of CR 1 MM-standard critter is 12.24, that's quite irrelevant.

[Sylthia]

Sidenote: How many bullets do you get with 5lbs? I can't imagine the sling itself weighing much at all. I don't have my phb with me at the moment.

[Greenish]

Sidenote: How many bullets do you get with 5lbs? I can't imagine the sling itself weighing much at all. I don't have my phb with me at the moment.

Sling doesn't weigh anything (that is to say, not enough to be worth tracking). 5 lb. is for 10 bullets.

You could also have Shortbow (2 lb.) and 20 arrows (3 lb.), but I went with the cheaper option.

[rexreg]

as food for thought, there is a 3rd. party feat called Superior Finesse that does basically what is being discussed: Prereqs are 13 Dex & Int, Wpn Finesse, & Expertise...
w/ this Feat, Dex damage does not stack w/ Str. damage, though
edit: i poked through my books & found it in the AEG Feats book

[Sylthia]

as food for thought, there is a 3rd. party feat called Superior Finesse that does basically what is being discussed: Prereqs are 13 Dex & Int, Wpn Finesse, & Expertise...
w/ this Feat, Dex damage does not stack w/ Str. damage, though
edit: i poked through my books & found it in the AEG Feats book

I think the prereqs are a bit pricey, but not stacking makes sense, considering regular weapon finesse does not. With the prereqs as RAW I'd have less issue with it stacking actually.

[rexreg]

I think the prereqs are a bit pricey, but not stacking makes sense, considering regular weapon finesse does not. With the prereqs as RAW I'd have less issue with it stacking actually.

i agree...while the group i play in uses this book extensively, a good deal of re-working of Feats w/in the book has been necessary...

[Just to Browse]

Studded leather 20 lb. Rapier 2lb. Buckler 5 lb. Sling and bullets 5 lb. Total weight 32 lb. or, medium load for anyone with less than 10 Str.

Oh lord, are you one of the people that make rangers move at 20' because they wear light armor and use a longbow? That hurts, that really hurts.

What are you blathering about? What should I have picked as the point of comparison, someone with Toughness and Skill Focus (Nosepicking)? Rapier is the strongest weapon Imp. Finesse works with, in case you didn't notice.

Of course I focused on the damage, since you claimed the damage was broken.

Wat? I just said that since you made a character that spec'd damage, and then compared damage, of course your comparison works.

Would you like a debate in which we just compared the initiatives of the two characters and decided who was better? No? Good, let's attempt so intellectual honesty here.

Fighter C picks Combat Expertise and Imp. Trip: he has +4 attack, deals 2d4+4 damage, has reach, and can trip.

With his exotic spiked chain?

Well, aside from the fact that the average HP of CR 1 MM-standard critter is 12.24, that's quite irrelevant.

Your encounters consist entirely to 1v4 fights where the party tackles a single CR 1 monster?

That sounds incredibly boring and easy and not the way D&D was meant to be played at all.

[Greenish]

Oh lord, are you one of the people that make rangers move at 20' because they wear light armor and use a longbow? That hurts, that really hurts.

If you had started with noting how encumbrance rules are, well, an encumbrance to the game, I might've agreed with you. Instead, you decided to make fun of me, only retreating to "RAW sucks" after I demonstrated my point.

Would you like a debate in which we just compared the initiatives of the two characters and decided who was better? No? Good, let's attempt so intellectual honesty here.

You claimed getting two stats to damage was broken, I demonstrated how it isn't (since it's quite comparable with other options at that level).

With his exotic spiked chain?

Guisarme, obviously.

Your encounters consist entirely to 1v4 fights where the party tackles a single CR 1 monster?

No, they don't. For critters with 2-8 hp, well, they go down with one hit, so Fighter B can stop using PA and boost his attack (unlike Fighter A).


For someone speaking of intellectual honesty, you're inordinately fond of strawmen and bait-and-switch.

[Just to Browse]

If you had started with noting how encumbrance rules are, well, an encumbrance to the game, I might've agreed with you. Instead, you decided to make fun of me, only retreating to "RAW sucks" after I demonstrated my point.

You are literally using the encumbrance rules that make low-level ranged characters bad to demonstrate that a melee build is bad.

I had assumed encumbrance was houseruled away along with multiclass XP penalties.

You claimed getting two stats to damage was broken, I demonstrated how it isn't (since it's quite comparable with other options at that level).

Right, but then I showed you wrong twice and then you started snarking at me and ignoring my points...

Guisarme, obviously.

Ah, then he can't attack within 5' of himself, so he's almost functionally identical to standard melee attackers except for the trip, which means he's got almost equivalent damage but is still outclassed by 4 AC, 3 init, etc.

No, they don't. For critters with 2-8 hp, well, they go down with one hit, so Fighter B can stop using PA and boost his attack (unlike Fighter A).

For someone speaking of intellectual honesty, you're inordinately fond of strawmen and bait-and-switch.

Right, and if you looked at the beginning of this argument where I said that they bring down monsters in almost exactly the same frequency, you will see that your point literally falls directly in line with mine.

+4 versus +5 is less than the difference between rolling badly in a session versus rolling well. There isn't even a little bit of straw in that argument, the two builds are effectively identical except where the Imp. Finesse guy is performing better in all non-attack based formats.

[Greenish]

You are literally using the encumbrance rules that make low-level ranged characters bad to demonstrate that a melee build is bad.

You're just making stuff up now. I only pointed out that dumping Strength completely was not very viable, encumbrance rules being what they are.

Right, but then I showed you wrong twice and then you started snarking at me and ignoring my points...

Are we reading the same thread? Because at no point have you "shown me wrong".

Ah, then he can't attack within 5' of himself, so he's almost functionally identical to standard melee attackers except for the trip, which means he's got almost equivalent damage but is still outclassed by 4 AC, 3 init, etc.

If you don't understand the tactical advantages of reach, that's hardly the point. And, obviously, if we were to compare the overall numbers of two separate builds, we would give them both the same point-buy, if we weren't so set on supporting an unsupportable argument.

Right, and if you looked at the beginning of this argument where I said that they bring down monsters in almost exactly the same frequency, you will see that your point literally falls directly in line with mine.

Or your point falls in line with mine, which is that the difference is minor, and a small boost to damage isn't broken even at the 1st level.

+4 versus +5 is less than the difference between rolling badly in a session versus rolling well.

The difference between rolling badly and rolling well is quite irrelevant.

the two builds are effectively identical except where the Imp. Finesse guy is performing better in all non-attack based formats.

Oh, so because the other build has the point-buy twice the size of the other, the feat in question is broken? I hope you realize how absurd that line of argument is.

[Just to Browse]

Greenish, I'm sorry but I'm not willing to do this. You're chopping my argument into non-contextual pieces, addressing the parts that make you look good, and then ridiculing me if I don't bring up those other parts repeatedly for you or spell out obvious solutions. I'm not going to spend the time getting angry about it.

Moving on.

I submit that dexterity should replace Strength because it will decrease low-level MAD, it follows in the same vein as weapon finesse and other X stat to Y bonus abilities, and it's already a strict upgrade required by any weapon finesse builds and doesn't need a boost.

[Epsilon Rose]

Question: How would this feat interact with two handing a weapon (for the weapons that can be two-handed)?

[Sylthia]

Question: How would this feat interact with two handing a weapon (for the weapons that can be two-handed)?

I think it only works with light weapons and a few others that wouldn't benefit from being wielded two-handed.

[Greenish]

I think it only works with light weapons and a few others that wouldn't benefit from being wielded two-handed.

I think whips can actually be two-handed (and even Power Attacked with).

Still, with the current list of weapons, I see no problems with it not having increased damage on two-handing (or decreased for off-hand attacks). It's a different approach to hitting people, it doesn't have to be identical.