D&D in M&M-- a new approach to rebalancing 3.5/PF

[cameronpants]

@Svata- <high-five>

[*]The thing is that you're messing around with the core balancing element of the system, for-- as far as I can tell-- very limited reward. If the numbers at PL 1 don't feel right for a heroic character, don't start at PL 1. Not sure what you mean by "without LA they are quite hard to escape."[*]I'd leave Speed alone, truth be told-- being able to have high-speed travel through spells and such is useful, and it would mess up some of the relationships on the chart. Strength is the most worrying, given how fast you get to superhuman weight capacities... but even that, I think, would be OK in a non-gritty game.[*]I don't think you can make M&M a very tactical game unless you rewrite it to the point that it's actually another system. High movement speeds are the least of your problems. If you want tactical combat, play D&D. If you want cinematic, play M&M.

In regards to my comment about LA: there are maximums (caps) for ability scores, BAB, damage output, DCs, etc. for low level characters in D&D- there's only so high one can go. With templates and races with LA you can bypass that cap and have stats much higher than otherwise possible- with the trade-off of lower core attributes (BAB, HD, Skills, etc).

[Grod_The_Giant]

In regards to my comment about LA: there are maximums (caps) for ability scores, BAB, damage output, DCs, etc. for low level characters in D&D- there's only so high one can go. With templates and races with LA you can bypass that cap and have stats much higher than otherwise possible- with the trade-off of lower core attributes (BAB, HD, Skills, etc).

Yeah, OK, I think I kind of see that. I'm afraid that I still don't see any virtue in messing around with the PL caps. If the numbers at PL 1 feel too low, don't start at PL 1. You're not supposed to start at PL 1-- that's level 1 commoner level.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Of this talk about tactical and cinematic story/gameplay, I was wondering Grod, how cinematic could M&M be for D&D-style games compared to systems such as D&D itself, GURPS, FATE, etc?

I would think more cinematic than D&D, which tends to be very tactical and detailed instead. FATE... probably depends a lot on your group. My biggest issue with FATE and cinematics is that you have to spend resources to interact with the environment in a significant way, which is something of a disincentive.

Speaking of which, would it be feasible for any sort of D&D race to have super-strength of some kind via M&M? I'm mostly referring to really big races such as giants or titans.

The Ranks and Measures table says that it's inevitable. Anything above Strength 3 (800 pounds with extra effort) is beyond even 80s action movie heroes.

[cameronpants]

I haven't given much thought to this amazing piece of work lately. I hope this isn't considered thread necro (being over a month old), but I threw together modified charts for a Dungeons & Masterminds game.

It doesn't work the same way it did in Mutants and Masterminds (Add the Time + Distance rank to determine how far you went, etc), but it should scale things back enough to enjoy.

Str chart is based entirely on the chart from Pathfinder. Everything else is derived from my own mind crossed with M&M 3rd edition.

Things do fall apart when a spellcaster casts a spell with a rank higher than 14 (Spells lasting longer than 24 hours is always a headache). Though, I guess with a houserule that no spell can last more than 24 hours without Permanency-like effect could work. Like, dawn erases magic from the land that isn't bound down with binding circles or glyphs or somesuch.

Thoughts?



EDIT:

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I just had a neat idea. Know how characters can trade-off DC vs Attack, Save vs Dodge kind of thing? I think it'd be cool if a spell could do something similar. Have a Telekinesis-like effect, rank 1. Reduce the mass it can carry by 6 and increase its Range by 6. Suddenly, you have Mage Hand with a range of 160ft.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Link doesn't seem to work-- I see "Chart.xlsx - Google Drive," but there's no content.

[cameronpants]

May embed them as images....?

[Grod_The_Giant]

May embed them as images....?

That didn't work either, but now the original link seems OK.

Your mass scaling looks kind of strange. What rule were you using to calculate it? (Also, I don't know that the Action and Duration tables are necessary, or even relevant, given how M&M works.)

[cameronpants]

That didn't work either, but now the original link seems OK.

Your mass scaling looks kind of strange. What rule were you using to calculate it? (Also, I don't know that the Action and Duration tables are necessary, or even relevant, given how M&M works.)

They were for my benefit, when I was toying with the 'trade off' ranks of a power idea. Having a rank at -2 for duration needed something more specific than '2 seconds' for game terms.

Mass scaling is pretty much the weights from D&D. Doubling every 2.5 increases.

[Grod_The_Giant]

They were for my benefit, when I was toying with the 'trade off' ranks of a power idea. Having a rank at -2 for duration needed something more specific than '2 seconds' for game terms.

Mass scaling is pretty much the weights from D&D. Doubling every 2.5 increases.

Ah. I was thinking more along the lines of "100lb, +100 lb for every rank of Strength," or something like that, but I guess your way works.

As for the first... well, you'd need to significantly change how duration works in M&M. As-is, there are only four durations: instant, concentration, sustained (as long as you take a free action to keep it active), and permanent. Given the fact that effects are at-will, any "duration" of more than a few rounds is pretty meaningless, anyway.

[cameronpants]

Ah. I was thinking more along the lines of "100lb, +100 lb for every rank of Strength," or something like that, but I guess your way works.

As for the first... well, you'd need to significantly change how duration works in M&M. As-is, there are only four durations: instant, concentration, sustained (as long as you take a free action to keep it active), and permanent. Given the fact that effects are at-will, any "duration" of more than a few rounds is pretty meaningless, anyway.

Good point. I was toying with creating 1/day abilities with durations, but got rather stuck. The idea was that a PC could have fewer at wills or plentiful per days.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Good point. I was toying with creating 1/day abilities with durations, but got rather stuck. The idea was that a PC could have fewer at wills or plentiful per days.

You can get something vaguely along those lines with Unreliable-- there's an option for 5 uses before you have to recharge, or 1 if you apply the flaw twice.

I've also toyed with the idea that you can take some flaws (Tiring, Side Effect, etc) without decreasing the cost of the power-- instead, you get to use it at +1 PL. If you combine that with double Unreliable, you get a big powerful 1/day ability.

[cameronpants]

You can get something vaguely along those lines with Unreliable-- there's an option for 5 uses before you have to recharge, or 1 if you apply the flaw twice.

I've also toyed with the idea that you can take some flaws (Tiring, Side Effect, etc) without decreasing the cost of the power-- instead, you get to use it at +1 PL. If you combine that with double Unreliable, you get a big powerful 1/day ability.

I like it. It works really well, actually. I was also thinking about extra effort and fixed bonuses from it functioning like metamagic. Might be neat.

Also, I really want to run a PbP gane using this material. If I do, I will link this thread, and it is possible you'll get some more requests. Is that kosher?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also, I really want to run a PbP gane using this material. If I do, I will link this thread, and it is possible you'll get some more requests. Is that kosher?

Why do we homebrew, if not so that someone will use it? Go with my blessings.

(Also, requests are fun)

[Zireael]

I like the new table for weight/mass scaling. A perfect mix of D&D and M&M.

EDIT: What is the 'Time' column for??

[cameronpants]

I like the new table for weight/mass scaling. A perfect mix of D&D and M&M.

EDIT: What is the 'Time' column for??

Time and Action were from me toying around with durations to get away from M&M's Concentration/Sustained/Continual system. Didn't yield any positive results, however.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It turns out that the new table code uses up way more characters than the old one did. I've returned this to legibility, but I've had to shuffle things around, and there wasn't room for all of the requests on the first page.

Removed request items:

For TheWombatOfDoom:
Centaur- 19 points

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Ability Modifiers

• Agility +2
• Stamina +2
• Intellect -1

Skill Ranks
None

Powers

• Growth 4 (Permanent, Innate)
• Speed 4
• Senses 1 (Darkvision)

Tiefling- 23 points (v1) or 11 points (v2)

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Ability Modifiers

• +1 Agility
• +1 Intellect
• -1 Presence

Skill Ranks

• +4 Deception
• +4 Stealth

Powers v1

• Senses 1 (Darkvision)
• Darkness- Concealment 4 (all visual), Attack, Ranged, Area Burst

Powers v2

• Senses 1 (Darkvision)
• Environment 2 (Visibility 2) 4 points

Half-Dragon- 32 points + 2 points/rank of breath weapon
Note: Feel free to increase the ranks of the Scales, Claws, and Flight powers

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Power	Effect	Cost
Ability Modifications	Strength +4, Stamina +1, Intellect +1, Presence +1	14 points
Scales	Protection 2, Obvious	1 point
Claws	Strength-based Damage 2, Obvious	2 points
Breath Weapon		Damage X, Area (cone or line)	2 points/rank
Wings	Fly 2, Wings	2 points
Senses	Senses 2 (Darkvision, low-light vision)	2 points
Immunities	Immunity 10 (sleep, paralysis, one type of energy damage)	10 points

For Eldan, again:
Half-Fiend- 42 points, +1/rank of Toughness, + cost of spell-like abilities

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Power	Effect	Cost
Ability Modifications	Strength +2, Agility +2, Intellect +2, Stamina +1, Presence +1	16 points
Wings	Fly 1, Wings	1 point
Claws	Strength-based Damage 2, Obvious	2 points
Spell-Like Abilities	Pick one or more from the list of spells: Darkness, Poison, Blasphemy (as Holy Word, but works against Good), Summon Monster (Limited to fiends, -1 point/rank), Slay Living	Varies
Senses	Sense 1 (Darkvision)	1 point
Immunities	Immunity 2 (poision); Immunity 20(acid, cold, electricity, fire damage), Limited to half effect	12 points
Spell Resistance	Immunity 20 (Magic), Unreliable	10 points
Damage Reduction	Impervious X on Toughness	1 point/rank, to a maximum of Toughness

Half-Celestial- 46.5 points, +1/rank of Toughness, + cost of spell-like abilities

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Power	Effect	Cost
Ability Modifications	Strength +2, Stamina +2, Awareness +2, Presence +2, Agility +1, Intellect +1,	20 points
Wings	Fly 2, Wings	2 points
Daylight	Environment 2 (Light 2)	4 points
Spell-Like Abilities	Pick one or more from the list of spells: Protection from Evil, Aid, Cure ____ Wounds, Holy Word, Summon Monster (Limited to celestials, -1 point/rank)	Varies
Senses	Sense 1 (Darkvision)	1 point
Immunities	Immunity 1 (disease); Immunity 17 (acid, cold, electricity damage; poison), Limited to half effect	9.5 points
Spell Resistance	Immunity 20 (Magic), Unreliable	10 points
Damage Reduction	Impervious X on Toughness	1 point/rank, to a maximum of Toughness

[infinitetech]

love this cross translation, a good tool to teach lore, amazing that it translated so easily where as the other way... doesnt

[Vaynor]

The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.