OOTS #883 - The Discussion Thread

[Kish]

Read the edit.

The edit, as far as I can tell, is, "I really really don't want to acknowledge that the SRD does address what I don't want it to."

They could easily have put, "A vampire cleric who worshiped a good-aligned god in life loses spellcasting abilities upon becoming a vampire" (for that matter, the part that they did put about losing Turn Undead and gaining Rebuke Undead completely ignores the possibility that the cleric already rebuked rather than turned undead!). They didn't. They didn't put nothing either, despite your insistence that they did.

[rockdeworld]

If we are to consider solid, unambiguously written rules, we should seek the "violating your deity's code will strip you of spellcasting" thing, and turning evil definitely seems a code violation for a good-aligned god.

Luckily, Thor understands these things.

[Mantine]

You're not basing your argument on omission, you're basing it on an unambiguous presence that isn't what you'd prefer to be there.

I've done nothing of the sort.

[Mantine]

The edit, as far as I can tell, is, "I really really don't want to acknowledge that the SRD does address what I don't want it to."

Once again, stop trying to put me into someone else's shoes and please address my points.

They could easily have put, "A vampire cleric who worshiped a good-aligned god in life loses spellcasting abilities upon becoming a vampire"

Why go so deep into the "cleric converted" thing when the appropriate Cleric entry already addresses it?
The vampire template mentions the whole "and will have to switch domains/familiars/whatever" because such things weren't covered by the appropriate class entry... but the "changing alignment will alienate your god" does.

[Silverionmox]

IMO the problem lies in the fact that D&D claims that clerics are really different from arcane spellcasters due having a special bond with their deity, having to ask for spells personally instead of learning and researching, etc.... and then writes the rules as if they're just an arcane spellcaster with slightly different spell and equipment lists: they need to research new spells, can write scrolls (and leave them lying about for people with goals that are contrary to those of that god), and apparently undergoing a complete transformation of body and mind that all but erases their personality and alignment and turns them into the very thing their class is geared up to fight... doesn't even inconvenience them slightly.

We've had jokes about the silliness of the D&D rules often enough (colon tumor, masked debt gourd, etc.), so it's a given that the ridiculousness of the rules is not systematically corrected in the comic. That shouldn't prevent us from snarking on it, but do know that it's all part of the comic concept.

[King of Nowhere]

"hystory isn't over yet"!

Blackwing is showing a great capability in demoralizing when trying to be supportive

[TheWombatOfDoom]

That'd be my thought. We don't see the IFCC on or near the couch, which is where we've seen them consistently before and Qarr must be aware that there's an high probability that V would attempt to vaporise him if ze ever saw him again. He must have a pretty good reason to risk appearing before V, or a reason to feel safe.

Yes! Exactly. Plus plot generally doesn't make players show up for "no reason"...although this is Order of the Stick we're talking about. (THOG LIKE CAMEOS FOR PUNCHLINES!)

This whole idea is scary though. What would possessed V look like? How powerful? He's been separated from the group for some reason. It's likely this. However, it's also exciting, because now we'll get to find out what the IFCC are really up to.

[Cerlis]

Its kind of a moot point.

We have not a single bit of evidence that Durkon has or does not have his powers.

We DO know he is different (the red magic aura).

I see no reason to believe that he is summoning that demon with power he got from Thor.


if anything DnD is rampant with evil powers jumping at the chance to patronize would be minions

[Lvl45DM!]

You know, you're right. I have gone too far this time. I'll stop making new strips now. Everyone, go home. The comic is over. My bad, I went too far.



Tell you what, you read the vampire template entry, particularly the part where it explicitly says that vampire clerics can still cast spells just with different domain access, and you tell me where it says anything about gods or temporary loss of access there. It doesn't. Vampire clerics do not need to worship a god to cast spells, because NO cleric needs a god to cast spells. The rules specifically allow for "non-theistic" clerics, and explains exactly what the effects of turning into a vampire has on a cleric: Rebuke instead of Turn, different domains. Period.

The only thing worse than the usual irrelevant rules pedantry is incorrect irrelevant rules pedantry.

I know im way behind on this but you know in Skyrim when you think you're awesome cos you kill dragons and then a Giant kicks your butt all over the mountain ranges? That just happened

[Kish]

We have not a single bit of evidence that Durkon has or does not have his powers.

Huh?

Rephrase? Durkon obviously still has his spellcasting powers.

[p59w]

IF Thor was a Lawful-Nuetral God - then Vamp Durkon could change to Evil and still worship Thor.

Just thinking

[IsmAsm]

For what it's worth, if Planar Ally was used, they were called and not summoned. The difference: called creatures can die, summoned creatures just *poof* away.

Ah. But I was under the impression that Outsiders just rematerialized on the Plane they're from if they die. Does being called change that ?

[Forikroder]

If we are to consider solid, unambiguously written rules, we should seek the "violating your deity's code will strip you of spellcasting" thing, and turning evil definitely seems a code violation for a good-aligned god.

if Durkon was still worshipping Thor that would be a problem but hes not hes now worshipping evil

Durkon the worshipper of Thor DIED
Durkula the worshipper of Evil lives as a vampire

[ellindsey]

Or is it just that the Summon Planer Ally (?) spell that he already had prepared (I think?) now brings him an Evil beastie and not a Good one?

That's right. Summon Planar Ally isn't restricted to summoning Good outsiders, just ones which match the alignment of the spellcaster and/or as chosen by the spellcaster's deity. Durkon isn't worshiping Thor anymore, so he gets one which matches his alignment, which is presumably Lawful Evil now.

[Adeptus]

Poor V. The world just won't leave my favorite elf alone.

[Mantine]

if Durkon was still worshipping Thor that would be a problem but hes not hes now worshipping evil

...Yeah, but it's not that easy.
The whole point of ex-clerics is so you can't just go and say "Oh well, gonna ditch my current deity and turn atheist/whatever and do all the opposite things I want while still retaining my spellcasting powers".
The moment you choose to become some Deity's cleric is the moment you choose to abide to a specific code of conduct. You break it? You pay with your spellcasting powers, THEN find another god to worship or atone.

Of course, being "forcibly" converted may work differently than willingly breaking your god's code. That's up to the DM to decide, hence why the vampire template entry doesn't specifically state what happens, leaving it to the generic "grossly violating the code of conduct required by the god" of the Cleric entry to judge the consequences.

[Forikroder]

...Yeah, but it's not that easy.
The whole point of ex-clerics is so you can't just go and say "Oh well, gonna ditch my current deity and turn atheist/whatever and do all the opposite things I want while still retaining my spellcasting powers".
The moment you choose to become some Deity's cleric is the moment you choose to abide to a specific code of conduct. You break it? You pay with your spellcasting powers, THEN find another god to worship or atone.

Of course, being "forcibly" converted may work differently than willingly breaking your god's code. That's up to the DM to decide, hence why the vampire template entry doesn't specifically state what happens, leaving it to the generic "grossly violating the code of conduct required by the god" of the Cleric entry to judge the consequences.

but Durkon is not breaking any of Thors rules Durkon is dead vampire Durkon is now alive

and the vampire template does specifically state what happens, you lose turn and gain rebuke erego if you were worshipping a good god your now not and now worship evil

its not like the Miko scenario where she willingingly killed her lord, Durkon got KILLED then got raised as a new entity that for all intents and purposes is a completely different being, for all we know Durkons soul is chilling in Valhalla enjoying a beer

Vampire Durkon never worshipped Thor so cant be punished by Thor

[Quakes]

In the case of a non-cleric vampire turning a cleric, I would think that there would be an issue of finding a new faith. But since a powerful cleric turned another cleric, who is for now under his direct control, one would argue that the vampire cleric's god would readily welcome a new cleric immediately. It would be up to Durkon whether he continues to pray to Nergal, or whether he finds his own deity to worship, once he is released from thrall.

[Forikroder]

In the case of a non-cleric vampire turning a cleric, I would think that there would be an issue of finding a new faith. But since a powerful cleric turned another cleric, who is for now under his direct control, one would argue that the vampire cleric's god would readily welcome a new cleric immediately. It would be up to Durkon whether he continues to pray to Nergal, or whether he finds his own deity to worship, once he is released from thrall.

Clerics dont need to worship a god they can draw energy from the psotive/negative energy planes to get there spells only reason to worship a god is for a large choice of domains

[Mantine]

but Durkon is not breaking any of Thors rules Durkon is dead vampire Durkon is now alive

and the vampire template does specifically state what happens, you lose turn and gain rebuke erego if you were worshipping a good god your now not and now worship evil

its not like the Miko scenario where she willingingly killed her lord, Durkon got KILLED then got raised as a new entity that for all intents and purposes is a completely different being, for all we know Durkons soul is chilling in Valhalla enjoying a beer

Vampire Durkon never worshipped Thor so cant be punished by Thor

Why did you repeat things I already addressed in the quoted post?

[sam79]

That's right. Summon Planar Ally isn't restricted to summoning Good outsiders, just ones which match the alignment of the spellcaster and/or as chosen by the spellcaster's deity. Durkon isn't worshiping Thor anymore, so he gets one which matches his alignment, which is presumably Lawful Evil now.

Thanks, that's helpful. So, this casting confirms that Durkon's alignment has changed (if further confirmation was needed).

I guess it remains to be seen from where/whom Durkon will get his spells in the future. Presumably not from Thor, and presumably from Nergal, but maybe just from the aether like 'atheist' clerics.

[Jay R]

Durkula the worshipper of Evil lives as a vampire

Well, for a sufficiently broad definition of "live". I suppose.

[Forikroder]

Why did you repeat things I already addressed in the quoted post?

you havent adressed them, Vampire Durkon does not and never has worshipped Thor so Thor cannot take away his spellcasting priveliges

[drazen]

Somehow I think Nale's comment that he has four spellcasters is going to come back to bite him. I don't suppose V managed to pick up Anti-Magic Field after the experience with the fiends and black dragon? I can't imagine V having it before then, given V's previously unshakeable faith in arcane magic.

The only other half-effective countermeasure I can think of for the remaining Order would be if Elan has picked up Mind Fog (d20 lists it as a Bard spell). He does have Lesser Confusion (he used it on Enor), so I suppose it's not entirely out of the question.

[Draz74]

Sad devotion? I just have a good memory and this is a fairly important detail... Ancient strip? It's only 50 strips, about 14 months, old...

It was a Star Wars quote reference, not a sincere insult.

Given human lifespans, it really wouldn't go that far at all. Try it on as a thought exercise with your own families if you don't believe me.

In my case the total death toll would be only 4. Even if cast 5 years ago when my parents were alive, that would only increase the toll to 9. I don't think there's any time in my life when the toll would have been more than about 20 - all my grandparents were dead before my son was born, which limits things somewhat.

51 people in my case. (Stage 1: me, my two parents, my three living grandparents. Stage 2: My brother, my three sisters, my niece, my dad's sister, her three kids, one toddler great-grandchild, my mom's 6 non-adopted living siblings, their 27 kids, and their two babies.)

Could still grow quite a bit, too -- my siblings and cousins (and maybe even myself) could have a fair few more kids before my grandparents kick the bucket.

Interesting idea. There should be an app for that. I just cast Familicide on my Gran (Not really. You know what I mean). I'm not from a huge family (my Gran has two living siblings, two children and six grandchildren), but stage 1 has already taking out people I've barely even heard of in my family. 25 or so. I don't have nearly enough of a graps of my family tree to count up stage 2, unfortunately.

Read the rules of the spell again. Your Gran's two living siblings would be unharmed by either Stage of the spell, unless you have a great-grandparent still alive (or there is significant interbreeding in the younger generations).

[Mantine]

you havent adressed them, Vampire Durkon does not and never has worshipped Thor so Thor cannot take away his spellcasting priveliges

Actually, I did. Be it vampire or not Durkon is still Durkon, so (as I already explained) it's up to the GM to decide whether his shift can be considered "a gross violation of his deity's code", thus robbing his persona of his spellcasting power, or a forcible conversion which simply brought him neutral(atheist).

Claiming that the shift is inconsequential because "the person he once was" is dead would have worked had he become a zombie or skeleton or any non-NPC class undead entity, but he's not. He's still a cleric.

[SaintRidley]

Got it. Mechanically speaking. Sort of.

What I don't get is: Thor gives Durkon his spells. We've seen this in comic. I can see how spells that Durkon had prepared before being vamped would still be available for him to cast (apart from his domain ones, and I suppose any others which are not able to be used by Evil characters, which I guess are lost). But the spell he cast in this strip is, what, Summon Fiend or something? Surely Thor didn't give him that, nor has he had time to prepare his spells again since being vamped.

Or is it just that the Summon Planer Ally (?) spell that he already had prepared (I think?) now brings him an Evil beastie and not a Good one?

ETA

Basically, he already had the spells prepared. They were given to him, and Thor doesn't get to take them back. Summon Planar Ally doesn't require you to specify what creature to call when you prepare it; you decide that when you cast it. Where he'll get them from in the future is something to wonder, though.

51 people in my case. (Stage 1: me, my two parents, my three living grandparents. Stage 2: My brother, my three sisters, my niece, my dad's sister, her three kids, one toddler great-grandchild, my mom's 6 non-adopted living siblings, their 27 kids, and their two babies.)

Could still grow quite a bit, too -- my siblings and cousins (and maybe even myself) could have a fair few more kids before my grandparents kick the bucket.

Who's the core of your stage one? You? Being of the youngest generation will limit the damage as well. I'll give my own family example, but I'll move the target to one of my aunts.

So, my aunt is core. My grandparents are already dead, so unaffected. However my aunt's seven children, and numerous grandchildren (and few great-grandchildren) all die. So do my mother, her three other sisters, and her brother. That's step one, and we're at around 30 dead (my aunt has around 20 grandchildren, and a few of them now have very young children).

Now step two. Anyone related to those people. My cousins' spouses die, as do any of those spouses' brothers and sisters, their parents (if alive and if so their aunts and uncles as well). Any of my aunt's great-grandchildren have their other parent die, along with the other parent's siblings, parents, aunts uncles, and grandparents (and through them great-aunts and uncles) as appropriate. And that's just my starting aunt.

My other aunts have a smaller version of this - one's children and grandchildren (and then those grandchildren's other parent and aunts and uncles and grandparents and such going back until we hit a dead ancestor to stop at). Another's children die, along with their fathers, and those fathers' parents and siblings. My uncle's daughter dies, as does her mother and her mother's siblings (pretty sure her grandparents on that side are already dead, if not then them too). Another aunt leaves my two cousins and their seven children between them dead (along with the other parents of those children, siblings of those parents, living parents and uncles/aunts of those parents, any living grandparents and through them great-aunts/uncles of those parents).

And in all those cases, if it kills an aunt or uncle, or a great-aunt or uncle, then the direct descendants of those are gone too.

And then we hit my mother, which kills me and my brother, my dad, my dad's siblings and niece (my dad's parents are dead, so everything stops there and my great-aunts and uncles are spared).

I'd need a ridiculously full family tree to even begin to tally the numbers here, but they easily exceed a hundred, probably more than two hundred after cousins.


But definitely not 1/4 of the human species. So, that's good, right? If you target the right person in the right family line, Familicide would probably vault you close to the top of any list of mass murderers in body count (the normal list for people who use, like, guns or knives or axes and such, not the list counting people using a state apparatus or such to do it).

[Vectner]

Qarr is such a dink

[Forikroder]

Actually, I did. Be it vampire or not Durkon is still Durkon, so (as I already explained) it's up to the GM to decide whether his shift can be considered "a gross violation of his deity's code", thus robbing his persona of his spellcasting power, or a forcible conversion which simply brought him neutral(atheist).

Claiming that the shift is inconsequential because "the person he once was" is dead would have worked had he become a zombie or skeleton or any non-NPC class undead entity, but he's not. He's still a cleric.

durkon now has the ability to rebuke undead instead of turning them and has 2 different domains then he used to, are you saying thats false?

[Mantine]

durkon now has the ability to rebuke undead instead of turning them and has 2 different domains then he used to, are you saying thats false?

No..? Why would you think that?