OOTS #883 - The Discussion Thread

[baerdith]

The Xill has no tail, and is different colour.

cool, didn't see the tail, and the armor is greenish... Giant sometimes fudges with colors.

[Another_Poet]

Would I be correct to assume one can not gain XP by using a soul splice's abilities? Otherwise, V should be epic by now, what with all those dragons s/he killed.

That makes sense.

It's also really unfortunate for the IFCC. The faster their client casters level, the more firepower they have on hand when those clients' turn to serve comes due.

They should probably fix that in Splice v1.1.

[gerryq]

What I find interesting is that we (again) get to see Tarquins soft and therefore weak spot. He talks about "your bothers pawns" still picturing him to be the leader of the Order. Even there is a debatable power in Elan being a bard.
As a storyteller in this Comic which (also) obeys the laws of Comedy he therefore has a certain power to "shape things" he is not the genius tactical mind Tarquins believes he is.
Also the mentioning of the 'Father of the year'-award in the last strip strengthens my opinion that if anything, his downfall will come from such a "mistake" in judgement rather than from his opponents, the Order or Team Evil.

Also "And I can see far" may be true, but is just a little too smug.

Tarquin is juggling a lot of balls and is feeling very pleased with himself. It's at times like that that the balls often start tumbling down.

[Porthos]

2) Quarr was maybe sent by the fiends to talk V to go back to the order, so that the Linear Guild wouldn't win right away...?

This is exactly what I am thinking. When Qarr left, he mentioned that he was furthering 'his own agenda' (paraphrased).

Well having V mope about doing nothing doesn't really further his (read the IFCC's) agenda, now does it?

But if Qarr plays Evil Jiminy Cricket and lights a fire under V's butt? Well, that might very well get him back into the game. Which in turn, furthers the IFCC's short term goal of destructive unnecessary conflict.

[Leirus]

The spell as described never made sense anyways. If you cast that spell on a human on earth it would wipe out all human life on the planet (possibly all life period, including plants, and almost certainly all mammals at the very least.) Unless the OOTSverse is like 300 years old.

What? Familicide goes down the family tree, and up until the first dead individual. It was so destructive when Varsuviuus used it only because he did so on an ancient dragon, who had likely been alive for thousands of years and had many eggs. Had Familicide not stopped when founding a dead antecessor, it would have killed all the Black Dragons, not 1/4.

If you used it on an old king, for example, you would wipe the entire royal family and probably several noble clans, but that would be all.

[undead hero]

Two things:

1. Wow, I thought Durkon would have to re-dedicate himself to an evil god or cause before he got his spells back! I guess in this world, only Paladins have to suck on insanely harsh code rules.

Well then it looks like Rich is keeping things closer to D&D than previously thought.

Paladins have always had stricter guidelines than Clerics and really that never made sense to me but hey whatever *shrug*

[pearl jam]

What? Familicide goes down the family tree, and up until the first dead individual. It was so destructive when Varsuviuus used it only because he did so on an ancient dragon, who had likely been alive for thousands of years and had many eggs. Had Familicide not stopped when founding a dead antecessor, it would have killed all the Black Dragons, not 1/4.

If you used it on an old king, for example, you would wipe the entire royal family and probably several noble clans, but that would be all.

If a dead relative stopped the chain, then the brother of your target wouldn't even die if their parents were already dead, because two brothers are only related through their parents. It seems like this is too obvious a pitfall for what the spell is hoping to accomplish for breaking the chain to be as simple as encountering a dead link....

[Porthos]

The spell as described never made sense anyways. If you cast that spell on a human on earth it would wipe out all human life on the planet (possibly all life period, including plants, and almost certainly all mammals at the very least.) Unless the OOTSverse is like 300 years old.

But the spell wasn't cast on Earth. And as Rich pointed out when he explained how Familicide worked, when OotSWorld was created, a bunch of unrelated people/critters were created out of whole cloth.

But, yes, on the whole Familicide was rather nuts.

Which, come to think of it, was the entire point of the fallout of said spell.

[Mutant Sheep]

I'm sure I'm not the first to predict this, but I'd bet Nale won't notice this until he tries to draw it...


And another thought: Would I be correct to assume one can not gain XP by using a soul splice's abilities? Otherwise, V should be epic by now, what with all those dragons s/he killed.

The Giant did whistle.

Yup. Not gaining any XP while spliced.. (You could, but your ECL jumps beyond any reachable level, so unless you take on pantheons, nothing is a good enough CR)

Familicide doesn't stop if it reaches an already dead person. If it did, then the Draketooths would have been perfectly fine, since Girard was already dead.

Edit:

That makes sense.

It's also really unfortunate for the IFCC. The faster their client casters level, the more firepower they have on hand when those clients' turn to serve comes due.

They should probably fix that in Splice v1.1.

They could try to find a way around it, and maybe actually have, but the ECL jump seems a pretty hard to leap stumbling block.

[Another_Poet]

Also "And I can see far" may be true, but is just a little too smug.

I was actually wondering if that line is a hint at something we don't yet know, or a reference to some item he has that I forgot about.

[Shred-Bot]

Ahhh, my spot check sucks So no Leeky today...

Nale counting himself as caster certainly looks like his style, but for me in stupidity it's close to not being able to count properly. The only spells Nale ever cast as far as I remember was Expeditious Retreat and that Charm Person on Belkar.

And a good thing that there's no Leeky... if it wasn't for Durkon he might have taken down everyone back in Cliffport.

[The_Tentacle]

And another thought: Would I be correct to assume one can not gain XP by using a soul splice's abilities? Otherwise, V should be epic by now, what with all those dragons s/he killed.

Yeah, the IFCC specifically said that you won't gain XP because your effective level will be so high (too lazy to link to strip). But it would be possible. Judging by how easily V defeated the ancient black, s/he was much higher effective level and did not gain XP from that. Maybe s/he would have gotten XP from Xykon, but we'll never know.

[Another_Poet]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html. You could, but your ECL jumps beyond any reachable level.

That's some excellent rules knowledge (on the IFCC's part and ultimately Rich's). That would not have occurred to me.

[Amphiox]

For the people comparing Haerta and V's bodycount, where was it written that Haerta was from OotSWorld?

For all we know, and in fact I presume this is the case, Haerta was on another prime matierial plane doing all of her wickedness.

Qarr said "in history" though, and history in a multiplanar universe doesn't have to be restricted to one world.

[Porthos]

Qarr said "in history" though, and history in a multiplanar universe doesn't have to be restricted to one world.

Yes, but Qarr wants to twist the dagger in V's back right now, yes? So what's a little poetic license between friends?

To put it another way: Caution Number One when dealing with fiends: Never take what they say exactly literally.

Which is, of course, followed closely by: Caution Number Two when dealing with fiends: Don't take what they say figurately at face value either.

[Leirus]

If a dead relative stopped the chain, then the brother of your target wouldn't even die if their parents were already dead, because two brothers are only related through their parents. It seems like this is too obvious a pitfall for what the spell is hoping to accomplish for breaking the chain to be as simple as encountering a dead link....

The Giant himself:

"I really thought that last comic would end this debate, but it seems like there's still a lot of confusion. So here goes:

Step 1: Kill everyone with the original target's blood. This is a simple yes/no effect: Is a creature (the secondary target) related by blood to the original target at all, in any way? If yes, kill it. If no, move on. Number of generations or percentage of blood or direction doesn't matter.

Step 2: Kill everyone who shares blood with any of the people killed in Step 1. Think of it as killing everyone descended from (or siblings to) any and all still-living ancestors of each secondary target. So if Penelope had a grandfather on one side and a great-grandmother on the other side who were still alive, every person who could trace their blood back to either of those people would be dead, because Penelope's daughter carries both of their bloods. If a person can only trace their blood through (say) Penelope's already-dead great-great-great-grandfather, then they're safe. Thus cousins and second-cousins and the like are all dead, but more distant genetic relations are not. It is possible for some cousins to survive if all older generations were already dead, yes, but Vaarsuvius wasn't really likely to take the time to make that distinction while sobbing on a dungeon hallway floor."

[Amphiox]

But the spell wasn't cast on Earth. And as Rich pointed out when he explained how Familicide worked, when OotSWorld was created, a bunch of unrelated people/critters were created out of whole cloth.

But, yes, on the whole Familicide was rather nuts.

Which, come to think of it, was the entire point of the fallout of said spell.

If you make the assumption (which granted may not necessarily be true) that after several thousand years the average fertility of any individual Black Dragon evens out, then Familicide killing about 1/10th of all Black Dragons suggests that the Gods created about 10 original Black Dragons.

[Amphiox]

If a dead relative stopped the chain, then the brother of your target wouldn't even die if their parents were already dead, because two brothers are only related through their parents. It seems like this is too obvious a pitfall for what the spell is hoping to accomplish for breaking the chain to be as simple as encountering a dead link....

If I read the Giant's description of Familicide correctly, then a dead relative does not stop the chain in step 1, but it does in step 2.

[Amphiox]

Sure Nale, insulting your team members is surely the key to victory! Also, what on earth are Tarquin and Kilkil going to be doing in the meantime?

What Tarquin and Kilkil are going to be doing, in the narrative-structure sense, is making it just barely believable for the OTS not to get TPK'ed in the first round of the coming battle (if it gets to a battle, of course).

[Psyren]

Wouldn't he at least lose the spells Thor granted him and require new spell preparation to gain his spells again?

It doesn't say that is needed either. And he already had several copies of Planar Ally prepped - he simply directed his request, er, lower.

What's amusing is that, by RAW, deities only interact during the preparation process, i.e. when the spells are requested. There's nothing about them being able to blank the unused spell slots from your mind after being sent.

The only question now is - is he asking Nergal, or Hel? Or simply an ideal?

[delroland]

PISCOLOTH!!!
SO... MUCH... HATE...

[Leirus]

If I read the Giant's description of Familicide correctly, then a dead relative does not stop the chain in step 1, but it does in step 2.

Hmmm. If I understand it right, it would kill for example the parents and grandparents an so on going back, and all the descendants going down... and then on step two everyone related to them. That way it works (for me), and I am really lamenting I brought this up again.

[Shadowknight12]

PISCOLOTH!!!
SO... MUCH... HATE...

There's a story behind that, isn't it?

[DukeGod]

Perhaps Tarquin's the sort of lawful that requires the proper forms be filled out: treasure taken, XPs gained, maps drawn on graph paper 10 feet to the square. In other words: a gamer!

"So, Sabine was banished at X point, meaning from this point forward she doen't get XP anymore...Oh hey DM, can we consider animating all those dead guys as beating a challenge against vomiting from the scent? Cool, that's like 20 creatures with what 1/4 HD?"

[Porthos]

It doesn't say that is needed either. And he already had several copies of Planar Ally prepped - he simply directed his request, er, lower.

Technically if Durkon could have lost all of his spells by being an ex-Cleric of Thor:

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

However it could easily be handwaived away by saying Durkon rejected Thor when he arose and is currently a Generic Vampire Cleric and thus didn't lose any perpared spells (with them being 'transferred' to a seperate divine bank account as it were).

Is it a bit of a handwave? Perhaps. But that's easily within the realm of DM Fiat (i.e. making their game/story run smoothly).

[Sith_Happens]

Wouldn't he at least lose the spells Thor granted him and require new spell preparation to gain his spells again?

Nope, there's no take-backs on granted spells. Durkon's got exactly the ones he had when he turned, he just can't cast any of the ones with the [Good] descriptor due to being Evil now.

[Gift Jeraff]

People were saying Elan, with his single Mass Cure Light Wounds per day, could be the new healer, yet are confused when an 8th-12th level sorcerer calls himself a spellcaster.

...Yeah, the opposites theme is still going strong it seems.

Ditto. Taunts and insults by imps should generally have [citation needed] at the end of them.



I dunno, mocking an evil spellcaster's familiar? Would Zz'dtri even care? He probably treats Quarr about as well as Tarquin treats a butler. The last evil spellcaster I played named his undead eagle familiar "Mistake."

He outlived us all.

edit: Ah, Zz'dtri is frowning though. Hmm.

It's probably just a blank face, like Z usually has. Z even calls the fact that V hangs out with a familiar now odd, so I doubt he cares much about Qarr.

[Carl]

Hmmm. If I understand it right, it would kill for example the parents and grandparents an so on going back, and all the descendants going down... and then on step two everyone related to them that is either directly connected and still alive, or is indirectly connected but for with a direct chain of living relatives exists that ends in a living direct connection.

This actually means that if Famlicide had been cast on a human it probably wouldn't be that nasty, we just don't live long enough for it to spread far. Probably why Hortea isn't so well remembered, it just isn't capable of that much devastation unless you hit something with the interbreeding tendencies and long lives of a dragon.

[Leirus]

This actually means that if Famlicide had been cast on a human it probably wouldn't be that nasty, we just don't live long enough for it to spread far. Probably why Hortea isn't so well remembered, it just isn't capable of that much devastation unless you hit something with the interbreeding tendencies and long lives of a dragon.

Yup, that is my take. Althought no doubt Haerta was happy to see it used on a dragon.

[Anarion]

Blackwing wins the award for most unhelpful help by a pet or familiar. Congratulations.

I see a certain odd genre blindness in Tarquin here. I wonder if he's setting Nale up to fail intentionally, or if his concern for his family and legacy is actually causing him to miss the setup where he has everything in hand and then it all goes around as soon as he relinquishes personal control.