Hypothesis about Belkar's death

[CoffeeIncluded]

This could be based on my misunderstanding of DnD mechanics, so please tell me if I'm wrong.

I get the feeling that after Belkar's current and possibly future actions, Roy will realize that he was in in the wrong to just run out the clock on Belkar, that it's wrong to leave a teammate to die. He learned it already with Elan but now he needs to realize that it applies to Belkar as well. But even as Roy realizes that Belkar's a member of the team and that he should try to defy the prophecy and save Belkar, or to at least raise him after they get Durkon or another cleric back and thus find a loophole in the "Last breath ever", that option will be taken from them.

Why?

Because Belkar's been drained by Durkula and Malack to the brink of death. This means he's almost certainly down to 1 con, but he could have been level drained down to level 1 as well (we know he's suffered both blood loss (con damage) and energy drain (negative levels) per Malack in this update). And con drain is permanent. And so is level drain (level loss) if you fail the fort saves. Which is quite likely with a con of 1, even with a good fort save progression. Fail the first save and you lose a level, which means you lose some of the class fort save and so it becomes harder and harder to stop the level loss spiral with each failed save.

What this means is that there's a very good possibility that until the Order can get their hands on a bunch of Restoration spells (which only a cleric or high-leveled paladin can cast), Belkar's going to be walking around with 1 con. At level 1.

Say, what's one of the clauses in the raise dead spell line?

Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised).

[martianmister]

I get the feeling that after Belkar's current and possibly future actions, Roy will realize that he was in in the wrong to just run out the clock on Belkar, that it's wrong to leave a teammate to die. He learned it already with Elan but now he needs to realize that it applies to Belkar as well.

Why? Belkar is evil.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Why? Belkar is evil.

Because he's still a member of the team, and the fake character development isn't so fake anymore. Given enough time, Belkar might actually make it to chaotic neutral. Too bad he doesn't have enough time (sorry for the TvTropes link. If it makes you feel better I need to get back to work too.).

[Dewani90]

and... we care about how the spell is written, because?

just remember that OOTS is loosely based on DnD rules, with emphasis on "loosely", just look at Miko's build, it was horrible and she was still the most powerful paladin of azure city, the potion of glibness would not make you capable of convincing a guard that he spontaneously turned into a Wallabi/Kangaroo even if you are an amazing liar, the ring of regeneration cannot heal you that fast and in real time, banjo could smite someone with only 1 follower (altough it was a puny lightning), weather control cannot launch a rampaging lightning storm on some tree-fiends, and the list goes on an on, so unless Belkar is killed by a snarl claw attack he can still be raised with no loss, and I'm pretty sure he didn't lost levels, or con, he just doesn't have a lot of energy left after he was used as a vampire buffet...

so stop thinking by the book, it will only give you a theory with no bases for the actual comic

[Kish]

and... we care about how the spell is written, because?

just remember that OOTS is loosely based on DnD rules, with emphasis on "loosely", just look at Miko's build, it was horrible and she was still the most powerful paladin of azure city, the potion of glibness would not make you capable of convincing a guard that he spontaneously turned into a Wallabi/Kangaroo even if you are an amazing liar, the ring of regeneration cannot heal you that fast and in real time, banjo could smite someone with only 1 follower (altough it was a puny lightning), weather control cannot launch a rampaging lightning storm on some tree-fiends, and the list goes on an on, so unless Belkar is killed by a snarl claw attack he can still be raised with no loss, and I'm pretty sure he didn't lost levels, or con, he just doesn't have a lot of energy left after he was used as a vampire buffet...

so stop thinking by the book, it will only give you a theory with no bases for the actual comic

While I am all in favor of not basing arguments on a slavish adherence to D&D rules...your argument that we should completely ignore D&D and just treat this as a serial graphic novel that used to have something to do with D&D (...vampires drain neither levels nor constitution? What?) manages to be significantly worse even than doing so.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Yeah, uh, Mass Death Ward was cast for a reason, it protects from level loss and con drain, both of which Belkar pretty much explicitly got. And in a case like this? Adherence to DnD rules would make excellent drama. Rich already adheres to resurrection causing permanent level loss (remember when the Oracle was revived? He complained about having to go and get that lost level back. Or when Belkar was so happy about finally leveling off the Wights, only to be level drained by one of them and going, "...Never mind."), this would just make it even crueler--Roy was willing to let Belkar die and he'd take his last breath ever because nobody would bother to go after him, but if this happens then he'd take his last breath ever because they can't go after him.

"What do you mean you can't bring him back?"

[Belkar<3]

I don't think Roy cares or even notices Belkar's recent character development. And he's stated before that he thinks that he's faking his old "character development". So . . . Why should Roy give a crap. (Not that I don't like Belkar, just that I don't think Roy is going to go through a major change like that.)

[Dusk Eclipse]

[QUOTE
=Dewani90;15081001]and... we care about how the spell is written, because?

just remember that OOTS is loosely based on DnD rules, with emphasis on "loosely", just look at Miko's build, it was horrible and she was still the most powerful paladin of azure city, the potion of glibness would not make you capable of convincing a guard that he spontaneously turned into a Wallabi/Kangaroo even if you are an amazing liar, the ring of regeneration cannot heal you that fast and in real time, banjo could smite someone with only 1 follower (altough it was a puny lightning), weather control cannot launch a rampaging lightning storm on some tree-fiends, and the list goes on an on, so unless Belkar is killed by a snarl claw attack he can still be raised with no loss, and I'm pretty sure he didn't lost levels, or con, he just doesn't have a lot of energy left after he was used as a vampire buffet...

so stop thinking by the book, it will only give you a theory with no bases for the actual comic[/QUOTE]

Eh no, while Rich has stopped making fun of the rules on regular basis, the setting is still based on D&d 3.5 Ed, therefore yes, we must assume Raise Dead can't raise level 1 people with 1 con.

[SaintRidley]

the potion of glibness would not make you capable of convincing a guard that he spontaneously turned into a Wallabi/Kangaroo even if you are an amazing liar

Actually, yeah, it can. Haley's what, level 15, with max Bluff, with a Charisma modof anywhere between +1 and +4, that potion of Glibness brings her anywhere from +49 to +53 on Bluff. At those kinds of skill levels, you definitely qualify to start using Bluff like Suggestion with a reasonable chance of success. The guard? Probably your bog standard level 1 or 2 guard with no sense motive or wisdom to speak of. Which means Haley's wallaby bluff has about a straight 50% shot of working.

It's ridiculous. But that strip was pointing out just how ridiculous it gets, all while staying perfectly within the rules for the skill.

[Forikroder]

Belkar was nowhere near one level, i think he only got level drained once from Durkola http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html (panel 4) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html panel 4 here is almost certainly a harm spell instead of a level drain (due to the smoke rising off Belkar which is absent from when Durkola got him)

not sure how much many levels a vampire can drain in one attack but Belkar should still have msot of his levels perfectly safe the only problem is his massive con damage

[Mutant Sheep]

Belkar was nowhere near one level, i think he only got level drained once from Durkola http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html (panel 4) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html panel 4 here is almost certainly a harm spell instead of a level drain (due to the smoke rising off Belkar which is absent from when Durkola got him)

not sure how much many levels a vampire can drain in one attack but Belkar should still have msot of his levels perfectly safe the only problem is his massive con damage

I read "Do not drain his last drop" as a command to well, leave Belkar with the bare minimum he could live with. (I doubt Durkula would stop at one level, due to his whole "bloodthirst" thing.). Leaving Belkar with his last livable drop would leave him at 1-4 Con and ? Level, but it would still take more than one level.

[Forikroder]

I read "Do not drain his last drop" as a command to well, leave Belkar with the bare minimum he could live with. (I doubt Durkula would stop at one level, due to his whole "bloodthirst" thing.). Leaving Belkar with his last livable drop would leave him at 1-4 Con and ? Level, but it would still take more than one level.

he said drink but do not drain the last drop, considering that Durkola woke up hungering for blood when a vampire first awakens he probably has a very strong need for finding blood so i think his drinking of belkar wasnt about tactics or strategy but jsut feeding Durkola before he loses control and feeds on someone important (most likely this is written into the vampire curse to force good natured people to feed after awakening to destroy whatever morals they have left and teach them the pleasure)

i doubt Malack wasted alot of time letting Durkola energy drain him too since Malack literally doesnt see the rest of the OoTS as threats (i mean he and Durkola have a good chance of dominating Elan and Haley (at the very very least they can get elan and Belkar) so its really going to be Roy and possibly haley fighting alone

really if anything Malack would prefer Belkar in tip top condition to dominate him again later

[CoffeeIncluded]

Belkar's got two level drains, minimum in him (Malack didn't cast Harm on him since he would have said Harm). Depending on how long Durkula was holding him, he's probably got more. And I also interpreted "Do not drain his last drop," as leaving Belkar just this side of alive. I get the sense he's a stiff breeze away from death at this point, and I think Belkar knows it too.

[Forikroder]

Belkar's got two level drains, minimum in him (Malack didn't cast Harm on him since he would have said Harm). Depending on how long Durkula was holding him, he's probably got more. And I also interpreted "Do not drain his last drop," as leaving Belkar just this side of alive. I get the sense he's a stiff breeze away from death at this point, and I think Belkar knows it too.

people never smoke aftertaking a level drain though

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html

even with all the level draining Tsukiko got she never sizzled it was definently an inflict that Belkar face tanked

[Mutant Sheep]

he said drink but do not drain the last drop, considering that Durkola woke up hungering for blood when a vampire first awakens he probably has a very strong need for finding blood so i think his drinking of belkar wasnt about tactics or strategy but jsut feeding Durkola before he loses control and feeds on someone important (most likely this is written into the vampire curse to force good natured people to feed after awakening to destroy whatever morals they have left and teach them the pleasure)

i doubt Malack wasted alot of time letting Durkola energy drain him too since Malack literally doesnt see the rest of the OoTS as threats (i mean he and Durkola have a good chance of dominating Elan and Haley (at the very very least they can get elan and Belkar) so its really going to be Roy and possibly haley fighting alone

I think that Durkula would interpret it (being a bloodthirsty and not-free-willed unnatural aberration of nature) as drinking however much he wants, as long as Belkar is still alive when he finishes. Durkula doesn't care about Belkar, he just wants blood. Getting as much blood as possible seems a good thing.

I read it as there being a brief timeskip (Durkon stopped drinking by panel four), when Malack feels like he should free Belkar. It's a "Oh Durkula's done drinking, time to skedaddle" moment. Though if he doesn't think they're a threat, why not let Durkula get all the blood he wants? Not like they're in danger then.

[Forikroder]

I think that Durkula would interpret it (being a bloodthirsty and not-free-willed unnatural aberration of nature) as drinking however much he wants, as long as Belkar is still alive when he finishes. Durkula doesn't care about Belkar, he just wants blood. Getting as much blood as possible seems a good thing.

I read it as there being a brief timeskip (Durkon stopped drinking by panel four), when Malack feels like he should free Belkar. It's a "Oh Durkula's done drinking, time to skedaddle" moment. Though if he doesn't think they're a threat, why not let Durkula get all the blood he wants? Not like they're in danger then.

Durkula drinking blood deals con damage

Durkula slapping belkar drains levels

in other words Durkula could drink as much as he wants and as long as Belkar is left with 1 con it wouldnt interfere with ressurecting him

[Kish]

I read "Do not drain his last drop" as a command to well, leave Belkar with the bare minimum he could live with. (I doubt Durkula would stop at one level, due to his whole "bloodthirst" thing.). Leaving Belkar with his last livable drop would leave him at 1-4 Con and ? Level, but it would still take more than one level.

No. Vampire blood drain drains Constitution only, not Constitution and levels. A vampire's slam attack drains levels (well, inflicts negative levels, not quite the same), and as Forikroder said, Durkon wasn't beating up on Belkar.

[factotum]

But even as Roy realizes that Belkar's a member of the team and that he should try to defy the prophecy and save Belkar, or to at least raise him after they get Durkon or another cleric back and thus find a loophole in the "Last breath ever", that option will be taken from them.

I think there's a far simpler reason why they won't get the option--they won't find a high enough level cleric! It took them more than three months to get Roy raised from the dead, and Stickworld isn't Forgotten Realms--you don't get high-level clerics working as bartenders in every little village you pass.

[SadisticFishing]

I don't get why people keep saying "very loosely based on 3.5 rules". No. It's 100% based in 3.5 rules, with a bit of DM fudgery, and not very much, either. Mr. Burlew is obviously a masterful DM, and it crosses over into his story-telling very well. Rules don't remove drama in any, in fact they increase it because you know what the stakes are.

[Coldwind]

I put my bet on Belkar will be disintegrated by Vaarsuvius while s/he is controlled by fiends.

On the other hand, if he won't die soon enough, I will believe that old Belkar is already dead. He is now quite different (and still progressing) than before. Like Haley said, "member of the month".

As mentioned before, twisting words is a feature for the Oracle (remember the part about Belkar's relevance with Roy's death, even Celia doesn't seem convinced about it).

Belkar's character development is something important which Rich wants to imply, so maybe Rich won't give up on Belkar, hopefully.

[Kish]

As mentioned before, twisting words is a feature for the Oracle (remember the part about Belkar's relevance with Roy's death, even Celia doesn't seem convinced about it).

As mentioned every time someone brings this up, don't confuse the Oracle spending one strip trolling Belkar with the actual fulfillment of Belkar's prophecy, which was him causing the death of the Oracle by stabbing him with his daggers.

[Coldwind]

As mentioned every time someone brings this up, don't confuse the Oracle spending one strip trolling Belkar with the actual fulfillment of Belkar's prophecy, which was him causing the death of the Oracle by stabbing him with his daggers.

Well maybe Tiamat is the source of the twisting words, not Oracle. He only says what he is allowed to say in green speech balloons, so that is still a possibility.

[sims796]

No. Vampire blood drain drains Constitution only, not Constitution and levels. A vampire's slam attack drains levels (well, inflicts negative levels, not quite the same), and as Forikroder said, Durkon wasn't beating up on Belkar.

Negative levels turn into Drained levels if not cured soon, right?

[Kish]

Well maybe Tiamat is the source of the twisting words, not Oracle. He only says what he is allowed to say in green speech balloons, so that is still a possibility.

What are you talking about?

[factotum]

Negative levels turn into Drained levels if not cured soon, right?

If you make a Fortitude save 24 hours after acquiring the negative level then the effects go away and you're back to normal--so theoretically Belkar could get his levels back provided he's still alive in 24 hours' time!

[SaintRidley]

If you make a Fortitude save 24 hours after acquiring the negative level then the effects go away and you're back to normal--so theoretically Belkar could get his levels back provided he's still alive in 24 hours' time!

Of course, his drained Constitution means his Fortitude save is lowered, and each negative level imposes a -1 penalty to saving throws that he has to deal with. It's not going to be easy to save and keep levels.

[Auldrin]

Are there actually any convincing arguments around that the oracle wasn't just lying to screw with him? Aside from 'that would be a huge and dissapointing red herring' or whatever, I'm talking about other quasi-prophecies which came true, word of G, etc

I don't expect it to be the case, just curious about whether it's been discussed, and what the arguments were.

[Kish]

Are there actually any convincing arguments around that the oracle wasn't just lying to screw with him? Aside from 'that would be a huge and dissapointing red herring' or whatever, I'm talking about other quasi-prophecies which came true, word of G, etc

I don't expect it to be the case, just curious about whether it's been discussed, and what the arguments were.

No, none.

Sometimes people propose that the Oracle is lying and then, in an effort to prove it, write massive wall of text arguments "demonstrating" that everything the Oracle has ever said is a lie. Those arguments get demolished. Sometimes people propose that the Oracle lies whenever he's not in the green glowies but tells the truth when he's in the green glowies. Those get argued with or asked for support. But only one person, that I can recall, ever proposed "the Oracle could be flat-out lying, just about Belkar dying, not saying anything about everything the Oracle ever said," and left it at that. It got no reply because...the only evidence that the Oracle isn't simply lying is a belief that Rich wouldn't write that.

Although, if you're looking for other things said outside the green glowies that came true, Roy and Elan did shortly have a pair of family reunions (Elan's brother kidnapped Roy's sister and contacted them). And (prequel spoiler)

Spoiler

Show

Eugene Greenhilt did indeed become Ghost Dad without ever finding his way back to the Oracle.

Also, the Oracle is willing to bet his life--er, his return to life--on being able to foresee his death with no green glowies.

[Auldrin]

stuff

Actually, those two are exactly the sort of non-glowy prophecies I was talking about, thanks. I'd definitely put him lying about that in the realms of technically possible but with no evidence pointing towards it. Shame, I like Belkar.

[Olinser]

I think there's a far simpler reason why they won't get the option--they won't find a high enough level cleric! It took them more than three months to get Roy raised from the dead, and Stickworld isn't Forgotten Realms--you don't get high-level clerics working as bartenders in every little village you pass.

It only took 3 months because they weren't LOOKING. Haley and Belkar were hanging out with the Resistance, sitting on their butts waiting for V and Durkon to come find them. When Celia actually started looking, it took them less than 2 weeks to find a cleric - and most of that was travel time and a useless trip to the Oracle. They found a cleric in literally the first town they went.