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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Lightbulb Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    im working on a fix for samurai right now, meant to be an unarmored close quarters warrior of great renown. Now with table and styles.

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    Samurai


    GAME RULE INFORMATION
    Samurai have the following game statistics.

    Abilities: All Abilities are useful to a samurai, there is no "dump" stat. Each Samurai will tend to lean on different abilities based on their style.

    In melee combat, Wisdom can be as paramount to a samurai as Strength and Dexterity can be. In addition, Wisdom governs the willpower of the Samurai, a must for dealing with many challenges. A high constitution may help him survive in the midst of battle. Dexterity governs some abilities, as well as the samurai's defense. Many of the samuraiís other class features depend on Charismaóa samuraiís force of personality can make his enemies quake in fear.

    Alignment: Any. Typically Any Lawful
    Hit Die: d10.

    Class Skills
    The samuraiís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Iaijutsu Focus (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ◊ 4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

    {table=head]{colsp=6}Table: Samurai Homebrew Class
    Level| BAB | Fort| Ref |Will| Special Abilities

    1st |+1 |+2 |+0 |+2 | Ancestral Weapon, Battle Wisdom, Precognition
    2nd |+2 |+3 |+0 |+3 | First Form, Voice of Authority
    3rd |+3 |+3 |+1 |+3 | Battle Progression, Iaijutsu
    4th |+4 |+4 |+1 |+4 | Daunt, Dedication
    5th |+5 |+4 |+1 |+4 | Flash Step

    6th |+6/+1 |+5 |+2 |+5 | Second Form, Bonded Weaponry
    7th |+7/+2 |+5 |+2 |+5 | Staredown
    8th |+8/+3 |+6 |+2 |+6 | Dedication, Uncanny Initiative
    9th |+9/+4 |+6 |+3 |+6 | Whirling Attack
    10th |+10/+5 |+7 |+3 |+7 | Kiai!, Rising Renown

    11th |+11/+6/+1 |+7 |+3 |+7 | Barrier Slice, Third Form
    12th |+12/+7/+2 |+8 |+4 |+8 | Dedication, Bonded Weaponry
    13th |+13/+8/+3 |+8 |+4 |+8 | Evasion
    14th |+14/+9/+4 |+9 |+4 |+9 | Improved Staredown, Legendary Deeds
    15th |+15/+10/+5 |+9 |+5 |+9 | Mirrorsoul

    16th |+16/+11/+6/+1 |+10 |+5 |+10 | Dedication, Master of Forms
    17th |+17/+12/+7/+2 |+10 |+5 |+10 | Death Attack
    18th |+18/+13/+8/+3 |+11 |+6 |+11 | Frightful Presence, Bonded Weaponry
    19th |+19/+14/+9/+4 |+11 |+6 |+11 | Impetuous Endurance
    20th |+20/+15/+10/+5 |+12 |+6 |+12 | Aura of the Shogun
    [/table]

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the samurai.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A samurai is proficient with simple and martial weapons; however, given the samuraiís skill with weapons, the samurai is capable of mastering new weapons with at least 2 hours of practice with the new weapon. Once learned, the proficiency is permanent.

    Samurais are proficient with all types of armor, but not with shields. However, most Samurai forego wearing armor.

    Battle Wisdom (Ex):
    Starting at 1st level, a samurai can supplement their wisdom modifier for their strength modifier on all melee attack rolls or for their dexterity modifier on all ranged attack rolls made with his Ancestral Weapons (see below).

    Precognition (Ex):
    When unarmored and unencumbered, the Samurai adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when the Samurai is flat-footed. He loses this bonus when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

    First Form:
    At 2nd level, the samurai selects one style of combat that they will focus on until they grow in skill, the samurai can choose between Daisho (one-handed weapon and one light weapon), archery, polearms (such as glaives and naginatas), or unarmed combat. Once taken, this choice cannot be changed but other combat forms are gained at several levels, allowing for them all to be mastered eventually.

    Voice of Authority (Ex):
    At 2nd level, the samurai can choose to use Diplomacy as a standard action to alter attitudes and persuade others to act. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 plus his Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

    Battle Perception (Ex):
    At 3rd level, with a deep breath and moment to center himself, the samurai's perception becomes so fine that he can feel the tiniest flutter of air moving past him. Invisible foes and other hidden threats become as plain as day in the area of his heightened senses. Drawing on the samurai's combat training, sharpened senses, and capability to predict his enemyís moves, he becomes a faultless sentinel on the battlefield. Even the smallest detail or stealthiest enemy cannot hope to evade the samurai's notice.

    The samurai can enter this state as a move action. While in this state, the samurai gains blindsense out to 30 feet and a +5 insight bonus on Listen and Spot checks. This state of heightened senses lasts a number of rounds equal to three plus the samurai's wisdom modifier. This ability can be used at will.

    Iaijutsu (Ex):
    At 3rd level, a samurai has become adept at iaijutsu, a fighting technique that concentrates on drawing his weapon and striking a foe in one fluid motion, before sheathing it. He is treated as having the Quick Draw feat, and can sheath it as a free action.

    Daunt (Ex):
    At 4th level, the samurai can make a demoralization attempt, as an immediate action, in response to an opponents attempt to move out of, or through, an area that the samurai threaten's in melee. Upon success they are also immobilized for a single round.

    Dedication (Ex):
    At 4th level and every four levels thereafter (ending at 16th level), a samurai gains a permanent +2 bonus to one ability score of the samurai's choice, proof of the samurai's dedication to self improvement and striving towards perfection. Each time this is taken, it may be the same ability score or a different one.

    Flash Step (Su):
    At 5th level, the Samurai moves with blinding speed, covering great distances in a short amount of time. This is treated as the spell Dimension Door, with the restriction that it is limited to line of sight to his destination, it effects the samurai only, and it counts as a swift action. The Samurai may use this supernatural ability once per encounter plus an additional use for every three levels thereafter.

    Second Form:
    At 6th level, the samurai selects one additional combat form that the samurai is proficient with. The samurai now can freely flow between styles, simply by using a different ancestral weapon type. Also, each form gains a new ability at this level.

    Staredown (Ex):
    At 7th level, a samurai becomes able to strike fear into his foes by his mere presence. He gains a +4 bonus on Intimidate checks and can demoralize an opponent (as described in the Intimidate skill description, page 76 of the Playerís Handbook).

    Uncanny Initiative (Ex):
    At 8th level, the samurai has practiced iaijutsu techniques used in ritual duels between two samurai, and he is able to anticipate when any enemy will attack and to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He now has the Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.

    He also retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

    Whirling Attack (Ex):
    At 9th level, when the samurai uses the full attack action, he can give up his regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at his full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When he uses this ability, he also forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

    Kiai! (Ex):
    At 10th level, a Samurai can strike with great focus. Whenever the samurai makes a single attack as a standard action and hits the target, he may decide to automatically convert that successful strike into a confirmed critical hit.

    He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + Charisma modifier. This ability is declared after the attack is rolled, but before damage is rolled. This ability cannot be used on Attacks of Opportunity.

    Rising Renown (Ex):
    At 10th level, the tales of the samurai deeds have reached many ears, simply by revealing oneís name and clan is enough for most to recognize, although a tabard or banner with the clan symbol works equally well. The samurai adds half of his class level as a moral bonus to all charisma based skill checks. Characters who use gather information or knowledge checks pertaining to the clan or samurai receive this bonus as well.

    Barrier Slice (Su):
    At 11th level, the samurai can strike at magical barriers with such immense power that the barrier can possibly be dispelled. The samurai can make one melee attack at his full attack bonus against the barrier; Treat the barrier's caster level as its AC.

    If the roll is successful, the magical barrier is completely dispelled. If unsuccessful, the attack automatically deals damage as normal for a sunder attempt, overcoming all hardness. Using this ability is a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity. If hit, the samurai suffers a -4 penalty to hit the barrier's AC.

    Force effects are still immune to physical damage. The samurai can use this ability a number of times per day equal to one plus the samurai's charisma modifier.

    Third Form:
    At 11th level, the samurai selects one additional combat form that the samurai is proficient with. The samurai also gains a new ability for each form.

    Evasion (Ex):
    At 13th level, a samurai can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the Samurai is wearing no armor and is unencumbered. A helpless Samurai does not gain the benefit of evasion.

    Improved Staredown (Ex):
    At 14th level, even a glance from the hard eyes of a samurai is enough to give his foes pause. The samurai can demoralize opponents within 30 feet as a move action, not a standard action.

    Legendary Deeds (Ex):
    At 14th level, a samuraiís deeds have become widely known, a samuraiís name and clan can be recognized by taking 10 in most cases. People sharing one or both parts of your alignment with you and have recognized you start one step closer to friendly for the purposes of assistance and communication.

    Mirrorsoul (Su):
    At 15th level, as an immediate action when wielding a magical weapon, a samurai may deflect any spell targeted at her harmlessly away, so long as it was cast by a foe she is aware of. This effect works like the spell was turned by spell turning, but it works against any level of spell used on the samurai, with the exception of epic level spells and spells cast by deities. This ability may only be used against the enemy spellcaster. This ability can only be used a number of times per day equal to one plus the samurai's charisma modifier.

    Mastery of Forms:
    At 16th level, the samurai has mastered all combat forms.

    Death Attack:
    At 17th level, if a samurai studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a single attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (samurai's choice).

    While studying the victim, the samurai can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target, perhaps talking to them or during a standoff. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the samurai's class level + the samurai's charisma modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the samurai.

    If the victimís saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal attack that scored a critical hit. Once the samurai has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.

    If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the samurai does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack. This always uses up one of the "Kiai!" ability uses per day.

    Frightful Presence (Ex):
    A 18th-level samuraiís bravery, honor, and fighting prowess have become legendary. When the samurai draws his blade, opponents within 30 feet must succeed on a Will save (DC 20 + samuraiís Cha modifier) or become panicked for 4d6 rounds (if they have 4 or fewer Hit Dice) or shaken for 4d6 rounds (if they have from 5 to 19 Hit Dice). Creatures with 20 or more Hit Dice are not affected.

    Any foe that successfully resists the effect cannot be affected again by the same samuraiís frightful presence for 24 hours.

    Impetuous Endurance (Ex):
    At 19th level, your fighting spirit enables your body to be pushed beyond its normal limits of endurance. You no longer automatically fail a saving throw on a roll of 1. You might still fail the save if your result fails to equal or beat the DC.

    Aura of the Shogun:
    At 20th level, the samurai reaches the pinnacle of their abilities, overcoming all challenges to become a person renowned on all frontiers and on every battlefield. The samurai's frightful presence extends to a greater range, reaching outwards 60 ft.

    The Samurai gains Damage Reduction 10 / Epic, Immunity to Fear spells and effects, as well as receives a permanent increase of +4 to one ability score of their choice.



    Style Progressions

    Daisho Samurai Style
    a samurai has learned to wield the two weapons together. He is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when wielding two ancestral weapons, one handed and one light, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for that feat.

    Daisho Pounce (Ex):
    At 6th level, a samurai has learned to strike twice with a charge. He is treated as having the Two-Weapon Pounce feat when wielding a one handed and light weapon, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for that feat.

    Whirling Daisho (Ex):
    At 11th level, a samuraiís speed with two weapons in combat increases, he can strike more often when attacking. When the samurai takes a standard action or charge action to attack, he can make two attack attempts, at a -4 penalty to attack (that includes the -2 penalty for two weapon fighting).



    Archery Samurai Style
    a samurai has learned to wield the bow with greater skill, using his wisdom to feel the shots, rather than aiming. Using his perception, the samurai attacks at vital points as he becomes aware of them. Add wisdom modifier to damage rolls made with ranged weapons.

    Ranged Threat (Ex):
    At 6th level, a samuraiís prowess with the longbow improves when fighting in partial melee combat. He is treated as having the Ranged Threat feat when wielding a longbow, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for the feat. If a creature within 15í of you takes an action that provokes an Attack of Opportunity, you may make a single ranged attack against that target at your highest attack bonus. This consumes all of your remaining Attacks of Opportunity for the round.

    Efficient Pull (Ex):
    At 11th level, a samuraiís prowess with the bow improves. Treat your Strength as being +2 when wielding a Composite Longbow or Composite Shortbow. He is treated as having the Efficient Pull feat when wielding a longbow or shortbow, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for the feat.



    Polearm Samurai Style
    When you make a Full Round Attack with a polearm, you receive a +1 Dodge bonus to AC and you may use the Deflect Arrows feat a number of times equal to half your dexterity modifier, rounded down, until your next turn, but you cannot use the Snatch Arrow (if you have it). You do not need a free hand to Deflect Arrows.

    Haft Strike (Ex):
    At 6th level, When making a Full Attack Action with a Polearm that is not a Double weapon, you may make an off-hand attack with the haft of the Polearm that does damage as if it were a Club. All normal Two-Weapon Fighting rules apply. If the Polearm is magical, its haft counts as magic for purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction. Normally, the haft of a non-double weapon counts as an Improvised weapon and cannot be used as part of a Full Attack Action.

    Hurricane Defense (Ex):
    At 11th level, When he needs to, a samurai can fall into the hurricane defense. In this defensive stance, a samurai spins his weapon around himself at high speed, gaining phenomenal durability, but he cannot move from the spot he is defending. He gains a +2 resistance bonus on all saves and a +4 dodge bonus to AC.

    a samurai cannot use skills or abilities that would require him to shift his position, such as Move Silently or Jump, while using this technique. A hurricane defense can only last for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the samuraiís Constitution modifier. A samurai may end his hurricane defense voluntarily prior to this limit.

    At the end of the hurricane defense, the samurai is winded and takes a Ė2 penalty to Strength for the duration of that encounter. A samurai can only use his hurricane defensive stance a certain number of times per day equal to 1/4th the samuraiís level. Beginning the hurricane defense takes one move action and the samurai can only do so during his action.



    Iron Samurai Style
    A samurai has begun to master the use of his own body as a weapon, channeling his ancestral powers into hardening him own body. He treats any unarmed or natural attacks as their Ancestral weapons. The samurai also gains 2 slam attacks as primary weapons, dealing 1d6 damage plus the samurai's strength modifier (1d4 for small, 1d8 for large).

    Rushing Body (Ex):
    At 6th level, the samurai can perform charges or bull rushes that provoke no Attack of Opportunities. All other rules applied to bull rushes and charges still apply.

    Thunderous Blow (Ex):
    At 11th level, the samurai can deal a single slam attack that deals 2d6 plus 1 & 1/2 of the strength modifier. If it scores a critical hit, it deals triple damage and has the possibility of knocking a foe to the ground, if they fail a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the samurai's class level + the samurai's strength modifier).



    Ancestral Weaponry:
    Every culture with a Samurai tradition has a signature weapon(s) that Samurai from that culture use. Whether it is the Spiked Chain of the Hobgoblin Khanate of Khadun or the Katana and wakizashi of the Human Empire of Rokugan, the weapons serve as a symbol of the office and prowess of the Samurai.

    This weapon must be a masterwork weapon exalted by the Samurai's warrior culture. He must perform a 24 hour ritual to call his ancestral spirits into the weapon and designate it as his Ancestral Weapon. This ritual costs 100 gp in incense and offerings, and once performed grants the following abilities:

    ē Counts as his Ancestral Weapon for all Samurai abilities.
    ē Has a minimum enhancement bonus to attack and damage equal to his level divided by four (maximum of +5 for a samurai of 20th level).
    ē The Ancestral weapon has double HP and +10 Hardness, and always has the Ghost Touch special property.
    Any ancestral weapons only function with the creator, and do not carry any magical powers outside the hands of the samurai.



    Bonded Weaponry (Su):
    At 6th level, the Samurai can select only one weapon quality from a list below that the weapon gains while wielded by the Samurai, drawn from either the DMG or MIC. In the case of a weapon already having the quality, it does not stack. At later levels (12th and 18th), the samurai can change this one extra weapon quality to any other ability on the list.

    6th Ė Binding, Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Ghost Strike, Merciful, Precise, Shock, Venomous
    12th Ė Acidic Burst, Banishing, Blindsighted, Blurstrike, Collision, Flaming Burst, Icy Burst, Ranged, Shocking Burst
    18th Ė Anarchic, Axiomatic, Bodyfeeder, Cursespewing, Implacable, Speed, Holy, Returning, Unholy

    ------------------
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2013-04-18 at 12:29 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Post Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    These abilities are all really cool. I like them a lot. Unfortunately, they don't feel particularly tied together. More like a loose collection of ACFs or something. There's no...cohesiveness.

    Also...please table. Please please please.

    What're you doing about skills? And this could also really use some bonus feats - I know that sounds silly, since bonus feats are a poor excuse for class features - but as is, this guy will be pretty feat starved.

    EDIT: Looking back, this guy is very paladin-esque. He can serve as a party face (Rising Renown, Legendary Deeds, and Voice of Authority - the latter of which is pretty poorly explained) and as a heavy hitting melee guy with supernatural influences (Bonded Weapons). Throw these abilities on a paladin, and you dont get a samurai, but...that's a pretty cool paladin.
    Last edited by Empedocles; 2013-04-17 at 03:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    I have to disagree there, Empedocles. Most supernatural samurai in films or animation have odd and strange abilities similar to this. So the 'uncohensive' is distinctly samurai to me.

    But I do agree it needs some feats. May I suggest tactical feats instead of just regular fighter feats or a particular list of feats?

    Have you seen the Iajtutsu Master, in the Oriental Adventure's books, Lord Erebus? It has some good ideas.

    You should drop the HD down to d10s. It's not a barbarian or even really a tanky class.
    Last edited by eftexar; 2013-04-17 at 03:36 PM.

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    Post Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    I have to disagree there, Empedocles. Most supernatural samurai in films or animation have odd and strange abilities similar to this. So the 'uncohensive' is distinctly samurai to me.

    But I do agree it needs some feats. May I suggest tactical feats instead of just regular fighter feats or a particular list of feats?

    Have you seen the Iajtutsu Master, in the Oriental Adventure's books, Lord Erebus? It has some good ideas.

    You should drop the HD down to d10s. It's not a barbarian or even really a tanky class.
    I didnt mean disjointed in terms of the flavor - I meant mechanically. It'd be nice to have abilities that play off of each other - i.e., he can make his enemies flat footed with an Intimidate check at 5th level, which would play off of Iaijutsu focus, or something like that (I also agree iaijutsu focus should be included).

    D10 or D12...either way, really. It doesnt make a big difference.
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Sorry, hadn't realized you meant mechanically. Anyways, I have an ability I've been toying around with for a couple of my classes that might work for the class:
    Daunt
    You can make a demoralization attempt, as an immediate action, in response to an opponents attempt to move out of, or through, an area that you threaten in melee. Upon success they are also immobilized for a single round.
    But the HD thing is just more of a standard than anything. And it just kind of seems really odd on a class with supernatural abilities.
    Last edited by eftexar; 2013-04-17 at 04:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    The question really is whether or not we need a Samurai class in the first place; I could see "Samurai" being ACFs for the Knight or feats that built off of Knight class features.

    Actually... I might go do that. Excuse me...
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    Post Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    The question really is whether or not we need a Samurai class in the first place; I could see "Samurai" being ACFs for the Knight or feats that built off of Knight class features.

    Actually... I might go do that. Excuse me...
    Do we really need a Knight class? I could see that as Fighter ACFs. Warblade is pretty silly too. Why not just keep the fighter? And the monk and unarmed swordsage should probably just be fighter ACFs too. Barbarian? Eh, how about a rage feat instead? What about paladin and ranger? CW prestige classes, thank you very much!


    Of course it's not necessary. But it's nifty.
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    I just don't really see why we need a class for occidental knights, and then a different one for oriental knights.
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Daunt
    You can make a demoralization attempt, as an immediate action, in response to an opponents attempt to move out of, or through, an area that you threaten in melee. Upon success they are also immobilized for a single round.

    I like it.


    but now that the class is up, how will it fit in?

    Edit: im thinking 4th level...
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2013-04-17 at 05:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I just don't really see why we need a class for occidental knights, and then a different one for oriental knights.
    I agree with this completely. I've always felt he Knight class did a better job of Samurai than Samurai did. With a few minor ACFs, I think it would be great.
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    Post Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    A good way to deal with flying enemies would be nice.
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    I have a Samurai here, feel free to glean fromit whatever you want.


    Though i do strongly support the sentiment behind creating a class that is VASTLY different from teh base fighter/knight 'class' ( liek amechra and Empedocles stated) instead of just renaming knightly esque thnigs asian and giving them an oriental flavor.

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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Yeah, I think 4 for daunt would be fine.

    For those who think it should just be a knight, the problem, in my opinion, with making it an ACF is that the samurai in popular culture have magical abilities, while knight's almost never do.

    Samurai also didn't always fight honorably, while knights, at least in legend, did more often than not. Samurai were better known for their weapon styles, while knights specialized in fighting in armor. I could list more, but...

    I really don't think the two concepts mesh as well as some of you think. By the time you offer more than 4 features to swap out I think it warrants its own class.
    Last edited by eftexar; 2013-04-17 at 06:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    This seems somewhat well done. Mirrorsoul is pretty neat but potentially a little overpowered. I'd suggest maybe limiting it to spells whose caster level is no more than the samurai's class level +5 or something similar (maybe class level + charisma modifier?).
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    Yeah, I think 4 for daunt would be fine.

    For those who think it should just be a knight, the problem, in my opinion, with making it an ACF is that the samurai in popular culture have magical abilities, while knight's almost never do.

    Samurai also didn't always fight honorably, while knights, at least in legend, did more often than not. Samurai were better known for their weapon styles, while knights specialized in fighting in armor. I could list more, but...

    I really don't think the two concepts mesh as well as some of you think. By the time you offer more than 4 features to swap out I think it warrants its own class.
    Knights are rather boring, overall. I like where pathfinder took it with Cavalier, which is the basis for the samurai class in PF. Samurai historically ran the entire spread of alignments, some were closer to thugs than knights.

    Miyamoto Musashi was a great example of this. Chaotic at first, then slowly fell into law.
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    Question Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    This seems somewhat well done. Mirrorsoul is pretty neat but potentially a little overpowered. I'd suggest maybe limiting it to spells whose caster level is no more than the samurai's class level +5 or something similar (maybe class level + charisma modifier?).
    potentially, yes. I dont have a major problem with it, since most non-casters are underpowered as is (except maybe monk or TOB stuff). what would be the worst thing that could happen because of it?
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Wait, knights aren't magical/mystical?

    What is this apostasy you are spreading? You wound me, my good sir.

    I consider the heroes of the Ramayana knights.

    I consider the Bogatyrs of Russia, with their maces that weighed more than a man, to be knights.

    I consider Paladins (another thing that should be folded into the knight class, so people who need an excuse for awesome can have it), to be knights.

    I remember Roland, who blew on a horn so hard it killed him, but it summoned his king from far beyond earshot.

    I remember his companions, who routinely struck blows hard enough that it slew both the man and the horse he was riding on.

    I remember grail-quests, mystic blades, contests of valor including self-decapitation.

    I remember visions and ladies whose love allowed a man to survive blows that would kill their lessers.

    Please, people, stop perpetrating that stereotype that oriental stuff is more mystical than occidental stuff; it's just that the occidental stuff is a lot less flashy about it.

    It's like making the mistake of saying that Lord of the Rings or Song of Ice and Fire don't have magic.

    But I'll stop this rambling, and I'll actually give a PEACH later tonight, in apology for the hijack.
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Wait, knights aren't magical/mystical?

    What is this apostasy you are spreading? You wound me, my good sir.

    I consider the heroes of the Ramayana knights.

    I consider the Bogatyrs of Russia, with their maces that weighed more than a man, to be knights.

    I consider Paladins (another thing that should be folded into the knight class, so people who need an excuse for awesome can have it), to be knights.

    I remember Roland, who blew on a horn so hard it killed him, but it summoned his king from far beyond earshot.

    I remember his companions, who routinely struck blows hard enough that it slew both the man and the horse he was riding on.

    I remember grail-quests, mystic blades, contests of valor including self-decapitation.

    I remember visions and ladies whose love allowed a man to survive blows that would kill their lessers.

    Please, people, stop perpetrating that stereotype that oriental stuff is more mystical than occidental stuff; it's just that the occidental stuff is a lot less flashy about it.

    It's like making the mistake of saying that Lord of the Rings or Song of Ice and Fire don't have magic.

    But I'll stop this rambling, and I'll actually give a PEACH later tonight, in apology for the hijack.
    Im sorry to be the one to break it to you, but the Bards who wrote those stories... they might have exaggerated to sell songs.

    Next you will tell me they pulled swords from stones and slayed dragons *rolls eyes*
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    who else thinks it needs an ability to slice through magical barriers?
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Amechra, you just proved my point. Most of your points/examples have a major problem with them.

    Namely they are 'extraordinary' feats of strength, skill, or resolve, which is defined in D&D as being beyond the ordinary (but not magical). Just because you can't do something in real life doesn't make it magic in fantasy.

    And most of those mystic swords were magic items. While the Samurai class may have a magic item it also has other supernatural features not befitting of a knight.

    Love restoring someone to life isn't the knight's doing, but his lady's love which would be an ability itself. Either that or it is his sheer resolve, which is in no way 'magic.'

    If you can describe something as an extreme version of a real life skill or capability then it is likely extraordinary in nature. Without even exceeding 1st level most characters are stronger, smarter, etc than their real life counterparts.

    And that very lack of flashiness you speak of sets them apart on it's own in my mind. That's like saying the Swordsage and Warblade should just be combined because the Swordsage is just a flashier Warblade.

    edit: Yeah, I think that would be a neat ability. I would limit it to "immaterial" or "energy" barriers such as wind or force though so it isn't too powerful.
    Last edited by eftexar; 2013-04-17 at 08:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    Amechra, you just proved my point. Most of your points/examples have a major problem with them.

    Namely they are 'extraordinary' feats of strength, skill, or resolve, which is defined in D&D as being beyond the ordinary (but not magical). Just because you can't do something in real life doesn't make it magic in fantasy.

    And most of those mystic swords were magic items. While the Samurai class may have a magic item it also has other supernatural features not befitting of a knight.

    Love restoring someone to life isn't the knight's doing, but his lady's love which would be an ability itself. Either that or it is his sheer resolve, which is in no way 'magic.'

    If you can describe something as an extreme version of a real life skill or capability then it is likely extraordinary.


    edit: Yeah, I think that would be a neat ability. I would limit it to "immaterial" barriers such as wind or force though so it isn't too powerful.
    Agreed. Especially since I was going for a more magical warrior, without having spells or invocations, but still have some variety, so you dont see the same cookie-cutter characeter rolling off the design board when you take the class. You eventually master all the styles of the samurai, like many reported samurai did.

    I figured that would be for the best, as well.

    Magical Walls of Air, Water, Fire, Force, Psionic, Shadows (cant remember which shadow magic ability from tome of magic), not physical ones. so a wall of iron or wall of earth would still block him.

    You might make the attack deal damage that overcomes hardness, so sunder attempts are nastier.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2013-04-17 at 08:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    That sounds like it would work to me. I would keep the wording loose so it could affect effects like wind wall too.

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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
    Im sorry to be the one to break it to you, but the Bards who wrote those stories... they might have exaggerated to sell songs.

    Next you will tell me they pulled swords from stones and slayed dragons *rolls eyes*
    I can say the same thing to your samurai examples. Most of which probably come from more modern fiction. Which, quite frankly, comes from the way that fiction writing has evolved in different cultures.

    Also, what is the real difference between "exceptional feats of strength/dexterity/toughness" (which include surviving decapitation, and reattaching the head), and magic? I mean, quite frankly, just because they are called "Extraordinary Feats of Strength" doesn't mean that they are Ex.

    That horn being blown? It was a small side trumpet. And his king heard him from over a day's hard ride away. For those of you that know European geography, they were on opposite sides of the Pyrenees at the time.

    Knights are only bland because you approach them with the thought "knights are bland" firmly in your mind.

    But enough talking about that.
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Slice the Barrier (Su):
    The samurai can strike at magical barriers with such immense power that the barrier can possibly be dispelled. The samurai can make one melee attack at his full attack bonus against the barrier; Treat the barrier's caster level as its AC.

    If the roll is successful, the magical barrier is completely dispelled. If unsuccessful, the attack automatically deals damage as normal for a sunder attempt, overcoming all hardness. Using this ability is a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity. If hit, the samurai suffers a -4 penalty to hit the barrier's AC.

    Force effects are still immune to physical damage. The samurai can use this ability a number of times per day equal to one plus the samurai's charisma modifier.
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2013-04-17 at 08:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
    potentially, yes. I dont have a major problem with it, since most non-casters are underpowered as is (except maybe monk or TOB stuff). what would be the worst thing that could happen because of it?
    I'm thinking something like the level 15 samurai turning back an epic spell by a deity or a very high epic character. The ability would still be pretty impressive even with a high cap, but would prevent this sort of potential weirdness.
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    Default Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    That looks nice; however, depending on when you get that, you might want to let them sunder force barriers as well.

    Because, well, you've got force behind your swing.
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    biggrin Re: Samurai, Can We Save It? (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    I'm thinking something like the level 15 samurai turning back an epic spell by a deity or a very high epic character. The ability would still be pretty impressive even with a high cap, but would prevent this sort of potential weirdness.
    But thats how Gods and Weapons of Legacy are made
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