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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thebar99 View Post
    Nope again. He said 2d6 twice. In order to attack twice that means TWF... which he can only do in melee, and only if he doesn't take Darkstalker. If he only attacks once, he never OHKOs.

    Remember, we are discussing a guard dog here.

    The following is not a guard dog:

    "The statistics presented here describe a fairly small dog of about 20 to 50 pounds in weight."

    The following is a guard dog:

    "This category includes working breeds such as collies, huskies, and St. Bernards."

    Note that 13 HP is never OHKOed by 12 damage, you need 2 attacks (that won't hit, lol -2 to hit vs 19 AC) for any chance at all.

    One attack at +3 that will never OHKO isn't really an improvement though.

    You can see how bad Rogues are by seeing how their supporters ignore the rules and subconsciously nerf their foes to be as bad as they are. Because illustrating how Rogues struggle to take out a guard chihuahua makes your point I guess?

    Let's flip this around. Take a Commoner. Have them use 50-95% of their wealth on combat gear. You won't get a good combatant, but they will hit on something other than a 20, they will kill stuff in under 2 minutes.

    Commoners have no combat ability whatsoever. They are not supposed to be good at anything except dying horribly and opening the odd Karrnath Fried Chicken store. And yet, despite that they are still able to do better at combat than a PC class - a class that is actually supposed to be good, does at lockpicking - a thing they are actually supposed to be good at. The Commoner is also likely a better combatant than the Rogue is a stealther... which is to say still bad, but fails less often.

    A Commoner plays against type better than a Rogue plays for type.

    If that isn't a sign it's the worst class in the entire game, I dunno what is.


    "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon...

    ...The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand."

    Right from the srd.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thebar99 View Post
    Nope again. He said 2d6 twice.
    He said. I didn't. Also, Surprise Round.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thebar99 View Post
    (that won't hit, lol -2 to hit vs 19 AC)
    The riding dog you quote has an AC of 16, not 19. And given that the rogue attacks by surprise, he gets the flat-footed AC of 14. Then he's got a slight more than 50% chance of beating the round for initiative, and get another attack at flat-footed SC in. Goodbye, Guard Dog.

    Please note that the Guard Dog is a CR 1 creature. So, the rogue has a pretty good chance of sneaking up on him (+10 vs. +5), an about average chance of hitting him in the first round, and if we give him 18 dex (still pretty easy for an elf or a dedicated human), his chances are even better. And this thing is supposed to be taken on by a group of four level 1 characters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thebar99 View Post
    You can see how bad Rogues are by seeing how their supporters ignore the rules and subconsciously nerf their foes to be as bad as they are.
    Like you're doing by ignoring spot/listen-penalties because of distance, surprise, and giving the dog an AC 5 points higher than it actually is?
    This is sarcasm, this is nitpicking.

  3. - Top - End - #93

    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerxus View Post

    "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon...

    ...The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand."

    Right from the srd.
    Right, the TWF you gave up and can't hit with anyways.

    Bakeru: You're right. He couldn't get a second attack even if he had one. That's even worse!

    Guard dogs get armor, and even without armor you still hit... what is it? 15% of the time? Not exactly an improvement when you need to hit twice, and get at least 14 damage. Let's see, what's that... 0.15 * 0.15 * .5 = 1/80 chance of actually jumping the guard dog? Less if it has barding? Weren't you trying to prove Rogues were competent?

    Oh and I'm ignoring stealth because you can't hide. As mentioned before, LLV hard counters you because the dog can still see you even if it's dark.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thebar99 View Post
    Guard dogs get armor,
    I have, quite literally, never seen a dog with armour. I could imagine war dogs with armour, but not simple guard dogs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thebar99 View Post
    and even without armor you still hit... what is it? 15% of the time?
    Actually, try 50% on a rogue with 18 dex. 45% if he has only 16. And even if we ignore flat-footedness, that's still 40% (35% with dex 16). And even if we give it armour with +3 AC and ignore flat-footed, that's 25%, or 20% with dex 16.
    You're not very good with statistics, are you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thebar99 View Post
    Oh and I'm ignoring stealth because you can't hide. As mentioned before, LLV hard counters you because the dog can still see you even if it's dark.
    LLV is anything but a hard counter. You see better in the dark, but still only twice as far as a human.
    Still, I assumed bright daylight. All you need is some concealment or cover, which is what the surrounding is for. Unless your guard dog is standing in an open field, in which I'd ask: "What does he even guard?".
    Last edited by Bakeru; 2013-04-20 at 04:30 PM.
    This is sarcasm, this is nitpicking.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thebar99 View Post
    Oh and I'm ignoring stealth because you can't hide. As mentioned before, LLV hard counters you because the dog can still see you even if it's dark.
    I swore I wouldn't get involved in this...
    How? Please tell me how the dog can spot the rogue. It can't be with scent, can't be with vision, and can't be with hearing, since people have already produced numbers to that effect.
    Edit: In addition, I suggest making your own thread in order to address your problems with the rogue class. Perhaps a duel or a competition, to see if a rogue could go through some encounters, with you testing some other class you prefer (perhaps a monk, or a fighter, or such.) I would be willing to run the rogue in that case.
    Last edited by Eldest; 2013-04-20 at 04:36 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #96

    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakeru View Post
    I have, quite literally, never seen a dog with armour. I could imagine war dogs with armour, but not simple guard dogs.
    Actually, try 50% on a rogue with 18 dex. 45% if he has only 16. And even if we ignore flat-footedness, that's still 40% (35% with dex 16). And even if we give it armour with +3 AC and ignore flat-footed, that's 25%, or 20% with dex 16.
    You're not very good with statistics, are you?
    LLV is anything but a hard counter. You see better in the dark, but still only twice as far as a human.
    Still, I assumed bright daylight. All you need is some concealment or cover, which is what the surrounding is for. Unless your guard dog is standing in an open field, in which I'd ask: "What does he even guard?".
    Barding is a thing. Note that the atrocious numbers were without armor.

    Even if we give him far more accuracy than he already has (and he already has HiPS that is HiPS, so why not give him more free abilities?), let's see... oh right, his chance of jumping the guard dog is now a whopping 8% (.4 * .4 * .5) and you still haven't addressed the actual guard yet. You also need a building specifically designed to be snuck up to even though the whole point of guard dogs and handlers is to prevent people from sneaking up to it... otherwise, there is no concealment unless it's dark (which the dog sees in) and there is no cover because everyone knows to clip their damn hedges, especially the ones in front of windows.

    You're making them look worse than I am!

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    But D&D buildings are designed to be snuck up on.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    I'm just going to assume you've never actually played a rogue, or you had a horribad DM when you did, and move on.
    I'm gonna hafta add "never seen a rogue played ever" as well onto that.

    Hes so far off the mark I'm honestly at a loss where to start, its just... no.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Quote Originally Posted by TypoNinja View Post
    I'm gonna hafta add "never seen a rogue played ever" as well onto that.

    Hes so far off the mark I'm honestly at a loss where to start, its just... no.
    At this point, I'm chalking it up to the t-word.

    Moving on because this thread has become extremely derailed- In my honest opinion, the 'worst' classes can be broken down into:

    Melee- Fighters and CW-Samurai.
    Spellcasting- Truenamers
    Psionics- Soulknifes, Divine Minds
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  10. - Top - End - #100

    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Quote Originally Posted by TypoNinja View Post
    I'm gonna hafta add "never seen a rogue played ever" as well onto that.

    Hes so far off the mark I'm honestly at a loss where to start, its just... no.
    Sure I have. In the best case scenario they got themselves killed, then the player made a good class and everyone continued the game happily.

    More commonly they drug other members of their party down with them. Unless team griefing is now considered success, getting your own party killed by your screw ups is a bad thing.

    I particularly liked the one where if the party had left the Rogue at home and replaced them with nothing they'd have avoided approximately 90% of the problems they encountered. An empty slot was an order of magnitude less problematic.

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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Yes bar when sneaking up on someone i'm going to walk/crawl straight towards them and not bother to use things like CORNERS, or WALLS, or AWNINGS to my advantage. Or if I'm part of a party and we all agreed on this plan not have some go be LOUD, DISTRACTING, or FANCY on the other side.

  12. - Top - End - #102

    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    So that's another vote for "Needs buildings people don't want people sneaking in to be deliberately designed to be easy to sneak up on."

    Got it.

    Now here's what I'd like for you to understand. People are smart enough to trim their hedges so that if a burglar attempts to break in, someone will see them. Even people in safe neighborhoods do this. Here you have a place where you have guard teams patrolling... and you want them to make it easy for you? Not want, NEED, as you auto lose if it isn't easy.

    Otherwise, you lose to ONE guard/dog pair. Just one. Doesn't even have to be a whole team of these guys working the perimeter.

    Now explain to the rest of the class how this doesn't definitely prove that not only are Rogues the Worstamest Class Evar(tm), but also that stealth is absolutely terrible in D&D no matter what class is using it. I'll wait.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Who said anything about hedges? And last I checked wall and corners were kinda an integral part of buildings. And if it involves a building its likely in a city where there are OTHER buildings/walls that you can use. Or with a little patience, you can select one place along the edge, hide there and wait for a patrol to come by. And if its not in a city, well pillars need to support ceilings, trees, and various rock formations all can provide good help. Seriously your issue is that the rogue fails if its played like a big, dumb, fighter. Which even the fighter fails if played in that way. Pause think, do a little long range looking, make a plan then act. Its simple and actually helps a lot.

    Also losing to 2 CR 1 entities at first level? Thats to be expected if you are taking them on alone (at least by the intended standards) as thats a level 3 encounter by itself. Which a level 1 party of four is expected to be able to handle 2-3 of before needing to rest.
    Last edited by jindra34; 2013-04-20 at 05:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Also, integral thing to note:
    That riding/guard dog you're using as an example?
    It's a CR1 encounter. So, it's supposed to be a fight for four level 1 characters.
    And that's without any armour or handler.

    Do you expect rogues to solo encounters above their character level? That he has a chance to one-shot the dog at all already means he has basic competence.
    This is sarcasm, this is nitpicking.

  15. - Top - End - #105

    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakeru View Post
    Also, integral thing to note:
    That riding/guard dog you're using as an example?
    It's a CR1 encounter. So, it's supposed to be a fight for four level 1 characters.
    And that's without any armour or handler.

    Do you expect rogues to solo encounters above their character level? That he has a chance to one-shot the dog at all already means he has basic competence.
    Uh huh. Now here is what I'd like for you to understand. Because you are sneaking off alone, like a dumbass you have to deal with it alone, instead of having your party there to fight (while you do all of nothing).

    Also, this was a low level Rogue. Not necessarily level 1. He could be level 2, he still loses. Even at 3 or 4, if he survives it's because he got caught then barely survived the opening attacks, and not because he was successfully sneaky.

    And then, without being at least level 3 he can only have ANY chance of OHKO with TWF... meaning no Darkstalker (he gets detected the instant he's in range = no surprise round as a best case) and most people were assuming he only attacks once (so even if the stars align and he hides in the nonexistent shadows, he still doesn't do more than screw up at screwing the pooch).

    Want to OHKO dogs? Be a Barbarian. Now you swing at +11 or +12, do xdy+12 (aka any hit kills), and attack twice.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    How are you getting +11 at first level as a Barbarian?

    I could do it as a Warblade, but that's because they are built to do tons of damage and not much else.
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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    So your whole arguement bar, is that if a rogue goes off and decides to be an idiot he will get himself killed? How does that reflect on the class and not the player?
    Also a 1-2 foot tall wall or hedge is enough to hide behind as long as your close to it than the guard.
    Last edited by jindra34; 2013-04-20 at 06:07 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #108

    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Charge, rage, Str bonus race. +11, +12 with a MW weapon. Barbarians are good at damage, bad at everything else but doing 1 thing > doing 0 things.

    And "doing something stupid" = using stealth at all, ever.

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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thebar99 View Post
    Charge, rage, Str bonus race. +11, +12 with a MW weapon. Barbarians are good at damage, bad at everything else but doing 1 thing > doing 0 things.

    And "doing something stupid" = using stealth at all, ever.
    And if the dungeons are anything other than flat planes?

    I'm going to amend my previous statement. I don't think you've ever played DnD.
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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post

    I'm going to amend my previous statement. I don't think you've ever played DnD.
    He might have played DnD. I doubt he has played it with a DM who didn't RAILROAD right over any players who tried anything unexpected or tricky.

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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thebar99 View Post
    And then, without being at least level 3 he can only have ANY chance of OHKO with TWF
    With Darkstalker, he still has a more than 55% chance (at dex 16. With dex 18, it's above 60%) of beating the dog to initiative, thus getting a surprise round for sneak attack damage and getting in another sneak attack in the first regular round.
    And that's still at level 1.
    This is sarcasm, this is nitpicking.

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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Thebar99, maybe if you had a proper argument you'd be able to support it based on situations that Rogues might actually find themselves in rather than contriving ones that set him at an unnatural disadvantage.

    By the same logic I could 'prove' that a class based entirely around illusions was the worst in the game if every single enemy he met were immune to them. Unless your DM is trying to get you killed that won't happen, and pretending that D&D characters don't live in a universe that follows D&D logic is insanely disingenuous.

    Now I'm not saying that Rogues are the best class, but they're in Tier 4, not Tier 6.
    Last edited by Notalion; 2013-04-20 at 06:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Ok. Since I appear to be ignored.
    Thebar99. Would you like to prove your allegations, in either a test of circumstances or a duel? I would be willing to run the rogue side, and you are welcome to use whatever you'd like: I would warn you against using cheese. If not, please withdraw them, or start another thread about it. In any case, please stop talking about it in this thread.
    Edited to add a bit of clarification about the contest.
    Last edited by Eldest; 2013-04-20 at 06:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Okay. How in all the lower planes can anyone ever think that stealth is not worth it. Not being seen by your enemy is the best way to circumvent a ton of encounters with a minimum of resources invested.

    And, well, I could easily find a dozen arguments of the same quality why your barbarian can't work.

    Here: let me prove it:

    You charge? Pssh. What crap. No one ever manages to charge successfully in a proper D&D game.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2013-04-20 at 06:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Okay. How in all the lower planes can anyone ever think that stealth is not worth it. Not being seen by your enemy is the best way to circumvent a ton of encounters with a minimum of resources invested.
    Because theBar apparently thinks every encounter takes place on a flat plain with no features other than 2" grass. Which precludes all forms of hiding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thebar99 View Post
    Let's flip this around. Take a Commoner. Have them use 50-95% of their wealth on combat gear. You won't get a good combatant, but they will hit on something other than a 20, they will kill stuff in under 2 minutes.

    Commoners have no combat ability whatsoever. They are not supposed to be good at anything except dying horribly and opening the odd Karrnath Fried Chicken store. And yet, despite that they are still able to do better at combat than a PC class - a class that is actually supposed to be good, does at lockpicking - a thing they are actually supposed to be good at. The Commoner is also likely a better combatant than the Rogue is a stealther... which is to say still bad, but fails less often.

    A Commoner plays against type better than a Rogue plays for type.

    If that isn't a sign it's the worst class in the entire game, I dunno what is.
    I almost thought you said "Commoners are better combatants than Rogues", which would be sufficiently risible to sig. Still, "Commoners fight better than Rogues pick locks or sneak" is amusing enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakeru View Post
    Also, integral thing to note:
    That riding/guard dog you're using as an example?
    It's a CR1 encounter. So, it's supposed to be a fight for four level 1 characters.
    And that's without any armour or handler.

    Do you expect rogues to solo encounters above their character level? That he has a chance to one-shot the dog at all already means he has basic competence.
    More precisely, there should be a roughly 50% chance of success in that case, according to the usual CR metrics. Anything more indicates more competence than usual.



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    All that said, Eldest is right; this is a topic for another thread, because no one here will agree that Rogue is the worst class ever.
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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Wow...jsut wow
    love how the barb gets to charge with pounce for his attack[best possible scenario], but the rogue can't sneak up on the enemy because it is magically in an un sneakable positon.[worst possible]

    You are judging the rogue based on how hard it is to sneak into a place if htey are using proper security, combined with Dnd's I see you if you are unhidden and cross my perimeter RAW(IE it ignores the fact that in reality you can get by someone if he is just looking the wrong way)

    Also, you are taking 1 stealther vs a party-challenge, and making it take it on in the dumbest way possible. you don't have to kill the guard dog, just get past it

    Really, though a lot of what you are talking about it the oddness of the dnd rules in regard to stealth, vison, quick kills, etc. its not inherent to the rogue class.

    And finally we have this commoner stuff. nhow the hell are you getting better at combat out of commoner. It has no class features and less BAB than rogues. and it has no armor proficiency. care to explain how its a better combatant than a rogue?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    In my honest opinion, the 'worst' classes can be broken down into:

    Melee- Fighters and CW-Samurai.
    Spellcasting- Truenamers
    Psionics- Soulknifes, Divine Minds
    I would disagree with the melee.

    While Fighters, and the CW samuria might be crappy classes on the power level scale, they still do whats on the tin. You aren't going to take fighter levels and be surprised he can/can't do something. Its not like say, a Drunken Master which makes you a worse monk by piling on wisdom penalties for using your class features.

    If we set the bar with casters like the truenamer who gets less able to use his abilties as he levels, we aren't just talking weak classes were talking straight up dysfunctional.
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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    And finally we have this commoner stuff. nhow the hell are you getting better at combat out of commoner. It has no class features and less BAB than rogues. and it has no armor proficiency. care to explain how its a better combatant than a rogue?
    Unlimited Chicken Works?

    Hey? It worked for Legend of Zelda. No one messes with Chickens there.

    I'd still say Worst Melee would be something like Ghoul/Ghast Monster Class. Wight gets mitigated by at least having unlimited spawns as a capstone to it's 8 levels of slogging and falling behind everyone else.
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    Default Re: Worst class in the entire game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    And if the dungeons are anything other than flat planes?

    I'm going to amend my previous statement. I don't think you've ever played DnD.
    Then you're still harder to counter, which is the point.

    I am not the one thinking stealth = invis or HiPS. I play D&D. Do you?

    Thebar99, maybe if you had a proper argument you'd be able to support it based on situations that Rogues might actually find themselves in rather than contriving ones that set him at an unnatural disadvantage.
    Sneaking past a guard dog isn't fair? I don't think I even picked that one.

    A normal, low level situation = unnatural disadvantage.

    Good, you get it.

    Thebar99. Would you like to prove your allegations, in either a test of circumstances or a duel? I would be willing to run the rogue side, and you are welcome to use whatever you'd like: I would warn you against using cheese. If not, please withdraw them, or start another thread about it. In any case, please stop talking about it in this thread.
    On what terms, and define cheese. Almost everything save non magical humans/halflings has at least 1 auto detect. Is it unfair that stealth is hard countered by most everything? Perhaps, but that's not my fault and I won't go out of my way to select the 0.01% he might make it past.

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