LGBTAitp 34: <3!!

[ScionoftheVoid]

Pocahontas's culture does not have a high sparkly dress - Mulan's does. -snip-

Pocahontas' culture is also not accurately represented, and Mulan has been whitewashed (that's not her in whitening make-up and it would be really misleading about the character even if it were). Disney is really Not Good At Representation (tm).

I would also like to know what a Disney Princess is? Does she have to be of royal birth? If not, how does one recognize her?

Disney has to market them as a Disney Princess. There are royal women in Disney films who aren't Disney Princesses and non-royal women who are. It has a lot to do with how well the film they are associated with went and how well they fit in the framework. (The princess in Atlantis, whose name I can't remember, was left out because the film didn't go well and Alice was apparently a bit too far from the "theme" to be a princess.)[/parroting from the feministdisney tumblr]

[Coidzor]

Oh there's probably a bit of that. How much is a more difficult question to answer.

Thankfully how much is of secondary importance in the specific context of Disney being a fallible group of human beings doing fallible things for money.

[Sylthia]

...why the hell is Mulan done up in a ridicuous outfit? Her film was ALL about being strong as a person, and defying gender roles and such. What the hell?

Mulan didn't really object to fitting into the traditional wife role, she just didn't feel she was very good at it. Likewise, she didn't really actively seek out the traditional warrior role, she just joined the army to save her father from almost certain death.

I really liked Disney's Mulan in that respect, because it shows that one person can fit into both gender roles if they wish. Mulan isn't any less a true woman because she dresses in traditional feminine garb.

[Heliomance]

... I did not say Disney was evil.
I meant to say that even today, Disney is not great at going against gender expectations, and apparently likes princesses so much they insert them into stories they really don't belong in (see Wreck-it-Ralph and who's the princess in it; not saying more, Here There Are Spoilers). That, I think, is pretty obvious. Now, whatever you make of it doesn't make you a moron.

...I thought Wreck-it Ralph was Dreamworks

[Chess435]

...I thought Wreck-it Ralph was Dreamworks

Which is part of Disney.

[Kindablue]

I think you probably assumed it was DreamWorks because Pixar didn't make it (and Pixar and DreamWorks cornered the market on that sort of movie), but Disney Animation made it. Also haven't seen that one. It looked pretty good though.

[Lissou]

I don't think Mulan is forbidden from ever wearing traditional feminine dress. However, I find it misleading that it's how she's portrayed when that's not how I (and I assume others) picture her character. That doesn't seem representative of her. The only time we do see her wearing this kind of outfit is when (from memory) she ends up tripping on her own dress and falling into a giant bucket of water.

The fact is that on this picture, they picked the characters and showed them in their "pretty faces" versions. Mulan seems the most obvious to me, and the girl from Brave has been pointed out before as well, but they're not the only one. Belle for instance would be characterized better, in my opinion, in her blue and white outfit with a book in her hand. For than matter, each one of these females would be more unique if they had an accessory (I'll allow Rajah as an accessory because he's badass).

But the point in this picture isn't to define them as unique characters with their specific personalities, it seems. It's to go "she's pretty and elegant".

Note that while a lot of them show the character post transformation, and at the end of the story (Cinderella, Belle, Ariel), Rapunzel is shown as her "before" persona, probably because the long, blonde hair makes her match that picture more.

[TheCountAlucard]

Hmm, page 34 of thread 34… wonder if anyone's gonna mention Ru-

(is shot)

[TaiLiu]

Hmm, page 34 of thread 34… wonder if anyone's gonna mention Ru-

(is shot)

[Karen Lynn]

Bad Alucard! :3

On Disney princesses: Is there really anything wrong with taking the Disney equivalent of a senior photo or prom photo? Is there really this big of an issue with getting dressed up once in a while? In Meridia's case: *character development* *plot happens* *conflict* *resolution*. Still a badass, but is more okay with mother's ideals. So what if she got dolled up, went to prom, then left her date because he was a derp with a bow?

Is getting dressed up once in a while really that bad to fit in with the equivalent of a group glamour shot?

[Chess435]

Rule 34 of the Internet: If it exists, there is porn of it. No exceptions.

[TaiLiu]

Rule 34 of the Internet: If it exists, there is porn of it. No exceptions.

That's... That's an odd assumption to make, no?

[Karen Lynn]

Tai:

Spoiler

Show

http://wetriffs.com

[TaiLiu]

Tai:

Spoiler

Show

http://wetriffs.com

I... I, uh...

Hm.

[Eldest]

I... I, uh...

Hm.

And that is how it works. Trust in the rule.

[Sylthia]

Disney princesses being all dolled up can represent a girl or boy's fantasy about dressing up and being a "princess". Sometimes people like to embrace their femininity and having some sort of way to explore and embrace it is nice to have. If my daughter or son wants to play with Disney princess dolls, that's just as valid as if they want to play with G.I. Joes.

Most of the modern era princesses have strong personalities and acting feminine and dressing up does not make them any less of a person.

[SaintRidley]

Sius, I think you asked about Therapeutic Recreation a few pages back. I don't really know much about what that involves precisely, and Spouse would be better at answering such a question. But Spouse is not big on forums, so the best I can do is link to the outline of the track will be taking for the degree. I'm just an English lit PhD student, just a little unaware of what exactly Spouse's career will be like.

Which is part of Disney.

Pixar's part of Disney. Dreamworks is something else.

[Kittenwolf]

Bad Alucard! :3

On Disney princesses: Is there really anything wrong with taking the Disney equivalent of a senior photo or prom photo? Is there really this big of an issue with getting dressed up once in a while? In Meridia's case: *character development* *plot happens* *conflict* *resolution*. Still a badass, but is more okay with mother's ideals. So what if she got dolled up, went to prom, then left her date because he was a derp with a bow?

Is getting dressed up once in a while really that bad to fit in with the equivalent of a group glamour shot?

Honestly I think the fact that they've made physical alterations to the character is kind of concerning, since she's hit 'unattainable in real life' kind of proportions.

That said, as long as most of the depictions of the character keep the rough and tumble, badass personality type of thing, the occasional "Prom photo" as you put it is completely fine.
I'm the *last* person to complain about people wanting to get prettied up for a glamour shot ;)

[Heliomance]

Bad Alucard! :3

On Disney princesses: Is there really anything wrong with taking the Disney equivalent of a senior photo or prom photo? Is there really this big of an issue with getting dressed up once in a while? In Meridia's case: *character development* *plot happens* *conflict* *resolution*. Still a badass, but is more okay with mother's ideals. So what if she got dolled up, went to prom, then left her date because he was a derp with a bow?

Is getting dressed up once in a while really that bad to fit in with the equivalent of a group glamour shot?

We're back to microproblematic vs macroproblematic. No, there's absolutely nothing wrong with getting dressed up pretty once in a while. Hell, I sometimes wish it was socially okay (and practical) to wear really nice dresses for everyday occasions. But when the only message coming out of Disney is "girls have to be princesses in sparkly outfits", and they hide the more proactive messages of characters like Merida and Mulan and force them into that role too, that's a problem. It's only problematic in aggregate. It's macroproblematic, not microproblematic. (I think I got those to the right way round.)

[Kittenwolf]

By the way, Helio, don't let your dream bother you too much. From the outside you certainly appear as a nice, happy girl. It's up to you to decide what you feel you are on the inside. If girl feels right, that's what you are, regardless of what your dreaming brain might conjure up at times.

Plus, dreaming that you're a different gender may be uncommon, but it's far from unusual, even among Cis people :)

[SiuiS]

Urgh. Paranoia sucks. Why does all online stuff ever need to be interconnected? It's so hard to just make a new, unconnected screen name these days. I now have a femme identity, and it required bending over backwards to make sure google doesn't start throwing my personal information at my friends who don't know yet. I had to reach back to the 15th century to get a name that was mine, but suitably different since you can't just put an initial in! Luckily, it's traceable to the Normans and Hastings...

No, I'm just talking about physical appearance, and they all look like the same, fake person to me.

No, I mean, I understand your point but I don't agree. I recognize the problem but do not see it here.

She would look a bit out of place in peasant garb, wouldn't she? I'm willing to let that pass for the sake of picture composition. Anyway, in what way is a woman's independence and self-determination undermined by pretty clothes?

Thank you, Asta.

Pocahontas got away without sparkles.

Pocahontas is in the exact same position as Mulan, and is wearing her setting's version of sparkles. She's got a chunk of turquoise and some nice frills.

Nor does Merida's, but she got sparkles.

Scottish highlands had sparkles. Thread-of-gold and suchlike.

... I did not say Disney was evil.
I meant to say that even today, Disney is not great at going against gender expectations,

Gotcha there. They really aren't.

and apparently likes princesses so much they insert them into stories they really don't belong in (see Wreck-it-Ralph and who's the princess in it; not saying more, Here There Are Spoilers). That, I think, is pretty obvious. Now, whatever you make of it doesn't make you a moron.

But here you lose me.

Princess != princess. Princess in Disney is like 'Link' in the legend of Zelda series; doesn't matter what his name is, Hyrule has a history of calling their greatest heroes Link.

The fact that [Wreck it Ralph princess] says "flick that noise, I'm still me" is the point. It takes pressure specifically off of the binary. It's not you are an adventurer or princess; it's 'screw your rules, I'm whatever the hell I want'.

Disney is not inserting princesses where they don't belong. They are bequeathing the title of Princess to women of appropriate bearing, saying "these women are what Disney considers role models". I]They've been knighted, not demoted.[/i]

Umm. Just had a dim witted epiphany here folks.

Are we ready to add Princess Leia to the line of Disney princesses?

Should we be nervous about this, because now I am...

Heh. Why not? She's suitably bad-ass isn't she?

Pocahontas' culture is also not accurately represented, and Mulan has been whitewashed (that's not her in whitening make-up and it would be really misleading about the character even if it were). Disney is really Not Good At Representation (tm).

Truth.

Disney has to market them as a Disney Princess. There are royal women in Disney films who aren't Disney Princesses and non-royal women who are. It has a lot to do with how well the film they are associated with went and how well they fit in the framework. (The princess in Atlantis, whose name I can't remember, was left out because the film didn't go well and Alice was apparently a bit too far from the "theme" to be a princess.)[/parroting from the feministdisney tumblr]

Link plz?

We're back to microproblematic vs macroproblematic. No, there's absolutely nothing wrong with getting dressed up pretty once in a while. Hell, I sometimes wish it was socially okay (and practical) to wear really nice dresses for everyday occasions.

Aye.

But when the only message coming out of Disney is "girls have to be princesses in sparkly outfits", and they hide the more proactive messages of characters like Merida and Mulan and force them into that role too, that's a problem. It's only problematic in aggregate. It's macroproblematic, not microproblematic. (I think I got those to the right way round.)

I disagree here though. Not that it is macroproblematic; totally with you there and didn't use the term because you've got it covered.

I disagree that this is the message Disney is sending. It's like calling someone noble; you could make the argument that they represent blooded gentry, but we all know you mean they are exemplifying a virtue you approve of. That's what princess means.

Merida is a princess. What we've learned is that it's okay to be pretty, and dress up. It's also okay to rip your gown, toss off the kid gloves and put lie to the thought that dress = useless. Same with Mulan, who shows up pretty, demure, and servile until she's not and then China is saved.

These people aren't diminished just because now they are in a dress. It doesn't retroactively undo their efforts or accomplishments. They are still awesome. Heck! Rapunzel is shown with her hair because that's when she was a bad-ass. It was only once it was cut she settled down; Disney is specifically sending a "run free as barefoot and live life and be awesome" message there.

Now if every picture of them ever uses the princess model, pose girly for the camera, then yes. That's an issue. But I don't think that's what we are discussing. I think that's what some of us are afraid of and so we are taking it out on the wrong venue.

[SaintRidley]

Urgh. Paranoia sucks. Why does all online stuff ever need to be interconnected? It's so hard to just make a new, unconnected screen name these days. I now have a femme identity, and it required bending over backwards to make sure google doesn't start throwing my personal information at my friends who don't know yet. I had to reach back to the 15th century to get a name that was mine, but suitably different since you can't just put an initial in! Luckily, it's traceable to the Normans and Hastings...

Grrr at the Norman conquerors (especially that bastard William).

That really had remarkably little to do with the actual point, didn't it?

[Philemonite]

Image google Rapunzel.
Frying pans is not very princessy.

[Kindablue]

Spoiler

Show

[Lauren]

Plus, dreaming that you're a different gender may be uncommon, but it's far from unusual, even among Cis people :)

Amen to that. I've had dreams where I was male that were so realistic I woke up and wondered where my penis had gone, and I'm 99%* sure I'm cis.

*I'm never 100% sure of anything, tbh.

[Asta Kask]

Thank you, Asta.

No, thank you. These are excellent points you're making.

Disney is not inserting princesses where they don't belong. They are bequeathing the title of Princess to women of appropriate bearing, saying "these women are what Disney considers role models". They've been knighted, not demoted.

Well, that and that they're marketable.

[Kindablue]

Lauren: I had the reverse a couple times when I was 15 or 16. Dreams are like music; they can change your life and move true thoughts and feelings in ways and down pathes you'd never anticipated, but they don't mean anything. Not really.

[FallenEco]

Lauren: I had the reverse a couple times when I was 15 or 16. Dreams are like music; they can change your life and move true thoughts and feelings in ways and down pathes you'd never anticipated, but they don't mean anything. Not really.

Agreed. Don't let it stress you out. You are still you and that is a wonderful thing. You just have weird dreams sometimes. My sister had dreams about being eaten by a giant pastry.
That doesn't mean that all dreams are rubbish or without meaning. Just that you don't need to take it so literally and you shouldn't let it make you feel bad about yourself. It's ok. *hugs*

And that is how it works. Trust in the rule.

Yep, is scary like that.

[Eldest]

So I'm debating announcing that I'm bi on Facebook. Most people I know would likely be supportive. I'm also fairly active in my church, or was until I went to college and will be again. So that might be a problem. And most people who's opinion I actually care about know. It'd just let the extended family know (which I will be sounding out how they feel with my parents first, just in case) as well as various people I don't see that often. Anybody see a downside I'm not?

[Karen Lynn]

*flips a coin* Tails. I say do it. I've honestly not had any negative feedback beyond what I've already posted here.