A fast VoP fix?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I know, I know, oxymoronic... but what if we do three four things:

1. Divine Blessing-- At 3rd level, you may pick a single 1st level cleric spell which could benefit from the Persistent Spell metamagic feat. You gain the benefits of this spell permanently, as a supernatural ability. The spell must target you, and its caster level is equal to your character level. At 6th level, you gain the benefits of a 2nd level spell with the same limitations. At 9th level, you gain the benefits of a 3rd level spell, a 4th level spell at 12th level, a 5th level spell at 15th level, and a 6th level spell at 18th level.

If you worship a deity, you may also pick spells from his granted domains. If you do not, the Good and Law domains are automatically available.

2. Add the standard "Bonus feats can be any feat, not just an exalted one" caveat.

3. Give the option of being allowed nonmagical weapons and armor that you have made yourself, in exchange for not getting the exalted bonus to AC. You may have them made out of special materials, so long as you have crafted them yourself.

4. You no longer need to take feats to get Vow of Poverty. It is a vow you can take at any point in your career.

It's not going to magically fix caster-noncaster balance or anything, but is it enough to make the feat less of a deathtrap for otherwise-capable T3 and T4 classes?

[Mephibosheth]

I think this is an interesting fix and a step in the right direction, but doesn't really get to the heart of the VoP's shortcomings. A permanent cleric spell effect would be helpful in many ways, but without assuming access to the vast corpus of splatbook spells, cleric spells can't really address some of the biggest VoP critiques, especially the lack of alternative movement modes. The only low-level core cleric spell I can see that would grant anything remotely resembling flight is the 4th level Air Walk, which is extremely limited and often very slow. And a VoP character wouldn't have access to this spell until 12th level, or 7 levels after wizards gain the ability to cast Fly.

That's not to say that cleric spells can't help. Energy resistance, ability buffs, immunities, and others are all helpful. But cleric spells typically lack the utility that's needed to alleviate VoP's shortcomings, IMO. Expanding into non-core spells or giving access to domain spells could obviously address some of this.

I do like the bonus feat tweak. I'm on record as supportive of non-exalted VoP, which would necessitate non-exalted bonus feats. So no arguments here on that front; it's definitely a big help.

I also don't think that nonmagical, self-crafted weapons and armor would have much of an effect. It seems like a lot of what people bemoan about VoP is the lack of items that grant more specialized abilities like alternate movement modes or energy resistance; things that, in most cases, have to come from magic or special materials that would be unavailable to the VoP character. Nonmagical weapons and armor would help in some cases, but not really address the most glaring problems.

Those are my thoughts. I obviously love the idea of beefing up VoP and this is definitely a step in that direction.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Allowing spells from your deity's domain wouldn't be a bad idea, I suppose. That certainly helps with Core only-- you can pick up fly at 9th level through the Travel domain.

The homemade weapons and armor bit was primarily to benefit warrior types, who might like to be able to use a sword instead of a quarterstaff. "Homemade" seemed to be a good bridge between aestheticism and having useful items. And it would let you use special materials, as long as you did the crafting yourself.

Oh, and I guess it would also be good to make it just a character option, rather than a feat with another prerequisite feat.

[Mephibosheth]

Allowing spells from your deity's domain wouldn't be a bad idea, I suppose. That certainly helps with Core only-- you can pick up fly at 9th level through the Travel domain.

I tend to assume core-only when homebrewing, unless I'm working on something specifically created for a non-core subsystem. I know a lot of people have access to non-core books, but I'd rather not assume that and render my homebrew useless to anyone who doesn't have a certain book.

The homemade weapons and armor bit was primarily to benefit warrior types, who might like to be able to use a sword instead of a quarterstaff. "Homemade" seemed to be a good bridge between asceticism and having useful items. And it would let you use special materials, as long as you did the crafting yourself.

Fixed that for you!

I agree that it can't hurt and could be helpful for warrior-types, though in my experience, the type of weapon wielded seldom determines the amount of damage that a warrior can deal. So the main effect is giving access to things like spiked chains and guisarms that have special combat uses beyond "hit stuff really hard." But yeah, it's definitely a helpful change for that type of character.

Oh, and I guess it would also be good to make it just a character option, rather than a feat with another prerequisite feat.

I tend to lean the other way on VoP, actually. A vow of poverty or asceticism should be something you commit to and devote resources to, not just another character option. You shouldn't be able to make the decision lightly, either IC or OOC. A vow of poverty is, in its very nature, about giving up options that you would otherwise have. So I like keeping it a feat. Admittedly, this hamstrings it a bit right off the bat. But for me, vow of poverty is more about making an interesting story concept playable than it is about optimization (not to say that your fix is about optimization). I'll always pick VoP for the fluff over the crunch and will still pick it if the crunch is absolutely atrocious if it fits the character concept. But that's just my philosophy behind VoP characters. Other than personal preference, making it a character option rather than a feat is probably a decent idea.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I tend to assume core-only when homebrewing, unless I'm working on something specifically created for a non-core subsystem. I know a lot of people have access to non-core books, but I'd rather not assume that and render my homebrew useless to anyone who doesn't have a certain book.

I had considered allowing sorcerer/wizard spells, but I felt like cleric spells were, on the whole, more fitting.

[Deepbluediver]

4. You no longer need to take feats to get Vow of Poverty. It is a vow you can take at any point in your career.

That's....an interesting way of doing things.

Personally, I've never really been thrilled with the VoP feat, but not for the usual reasons. To me, it just never really felt like other feats. Now, I'm all for feats that are more interesting, more powerful, and scale better, but VoP seemed liked it crossed a line for some reason. I'm not articulating this very well, I know; it was sort of a gut distaste.

I've wondered if the benefits of the VoP couldn't be better balanced with use on a short PrC, something that was 3 or 5 levels. Trade off increasing restrictions for better/more benfits, etc; or have it allow more choices for the exchange.

Obviously it's not very well fleshed out, it was just an idea I've had floating around and your "feat thats not a feat" reminded me of it.

[Network]

If you do not, the Good and Law domains are automatically available.

You're falling into the common misconception ''Law equal Good'' here. No one said someone taking VoP has to be lawful.

As for improving VoP, though, why not make the bonus feats retroactive? On an unrelated note, I agree with Mephibosheth that the vow itself should still require a feat, despite the fact that bonus feats obviously compensate for it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You're falling into the common misconception ''Law equal Good'' here. No one said someone taking VoP has to be lawful.

As for improving VoP, though, why not make the bonus feats retroactive? On an unrelated note, I agree with Mephibosheth that the vow itself should still require a feat, despite the fact that bonus feats obviously compensate for it.

On the other hand, taking a VOW is hardly a chaotic act.

What do you mean by retroactive bonus feats?

I strongly disagree that it should be a feat, though. Feats add things to your character-- ideally, new abilities, but numbers will do in a pinch. Vow of Poverty is not doing that. It's a trade-off, a sort of universal ACF.

[Squark]

Instead of the law domain, perhaps alternate domains could be made available? The virtue domains from the last issues of Paizo's run of Dragon, perhaps? I have to agree that aesctetism isn't really lawful or chaotic, which is what Vow of Poverty serves to enable.

Also, don't the other vow of X feats have similar if perhaps less stringent codes attached to them?

I'm... skeptical about the idea of allowing special materials. Perhaps limiting to standard iron, but granting the ability to bypass damage reduction overcome by materials for a certain amount of time each day?

[Qwertystop]

You're falling into the common misconception ''Law equal Good'' here. No one said someone taking VoP has to be lawful.

Not really. On the other hand, if there's no god involved, VoP has exactly four themes.
unless
1: It's a vow.
2: For self-imposed poverty.
3: This is [Good].
4: Thus, you get divine compensation.

So, unless there's a domain for Poverty or Compensation (Bargains?), you're suck with Vow (Law) and Good.

You don't have to equate Law with Good to equate "sworn oath to do something even if you could do better otherwise" with Law.

[Amechra]

Maybe the Community domain?

Or the Mysticism (Good) domain?

[Qwertystop]

Maybe the Community domain?

Or the Mysticism (Good) domain?

Not sure community would work - poverty is sort of a dissociation from most communities, as most communities (physically at least) are built around trade. Mysticism might work though, especially since it's not any specific god. Where is it?

[Amechra]

Complete Divine

[Mephibosheth]

If you're looking for more domains and homebrew is OK, I offer the asceticism domain. Scroll down; it's toward the end of the post. Seems like a good fit, fluff-wise.