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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Martial Ranger [Base]

    ...I think the concept that started out as "martial ranger" has been curupted into "how can we make a fighter more restricted, but have a d8 hit die and heaps of skills?"

    ...isn't the whole point of a ranger a warrior of nature? Isn't that martial enough?
    We the Unwilling,
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    Have been doing the Unimagineble
    For so Long, with so Little,
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    With Nothing!

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    Default Re: Martial Ranger [Base]

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Also, a two-weapon fighter can use a defending blade in his off hand, and use all the bonuses for AC (which stacks with all other bonuses, by the way) and either Two Weapon Defense or an enchanted buckler to make up for any shield bonuses (I'm not getting into the cheeze of a dancing shield).
    That defending enhancement can be placed on shield spikes, which RAW can be enchanted like any other weapon, which makes it irrelevant to the discussion (since both players can access it). Thus, the buckler-wielding TWFer will have -- I stand corrected -- three less AC. But that's assuming that the TWFer has the Dexterity to make full use of his Mithril Breastplate. An entirely possible situation, mind you, but those points of Dexterity weren't free.

    Honestly, if you wanted to make a martial ranger, I'd seriously look at some of the Horizion Walker's non-planar terrain masteries (the low level ones) rather than feats. It's got flavor, and grants a benifit, without being so cracktackular as a what you have written. Pass them out at 4th and every 4 levels thereafter. Also give him Track at 1st level. And keep the style mastery bonuses.
    I have to admit, I rather like the Horizon Walker's stuff. And I also like the idea of having multiple style masteries.

    Oh, and ditch Ranged Threat and Ranged Flanking. That's just plain crack on cheeze toast. It's even worse than the Spiked Chain cheeze, because at least the Spiked Chain is limited to 10' (15' if you can increase your size). That plus combat reflexes means anyone who gets inside 30' of you dies a horrid death.
    Ranged Flanking is fine. Keep in mind that your opponent must be directly between you and your ally, and there can't be anything else between your enemy and you, and your enemy must be aware of you (so no hiding).

    I mean, it'd be trouble, if your Ranger was in the center of a featureless plane, with all of your allies on the outside of a circle, surrounding all of your enemies. But I don't think very many DMs use the Adventures in Flatland campaign setting these days.

    Actually, if you think it's too strong, it could be brought in line by designating a single target to flank (or perhaps all targets within a small cone).

    Ranged Threat, I'm still conflicted. I think it's really strong, but I also think it's very situation-dependant. That's why I liked my version better -- it gave a very strong benefit, but even in the best of situations it wasn't a "Win" button, since you could only do it once or twice.

    I'd also suggest something bigger at level 20 to encourage straight builds versus multiclassing. If you keep the style masteries, then at 20th, you can get Perfect TWF for melee (one offhand attack for every regular attack) and probably Storm of Arrows for archery (1/day, shoot one arrow at every opponent in range, maximum number of targets equal to Ranger level).

    Your current build, with lots of front-loaded bonus feats and skills, just screams 'Munchkin Min/Max Dip'. Declared bonus feats (like the Style Mastery chain) are much less munchkin-ey.
    Good point -- for dipping, this Ranger is a much better choice than the Fighter, since you get those bonus skill points.

    As an alternate suggestion:

    Grant both Style Bonuses rather than choosing one, with a nifty style feat at around 16 and another at 20. Grant a bonus feat every level they would have gotten a spell level (4 bonus feats, starting at 4th level). Grant Terrain Masteries at 1st, 3rd and every 4 levels thereafter. Then just keep everything else in the 3.5 Ranger. Done. It's wildly overpowered and sheer crack, but at least it's less munchkiney than the one you currently have proposed.
    You had some good points, but here you lost me. You're saying that 6 bonus-feat-equivalent style bonuses (which ignore prerequisites!), 2 "nifty style" feats, 6 Terrain Masteries, and 4 bonus feats are somehow weaker than 8 bonus feats and 6 special abilities?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Iames Osari View Post
    Did you read the thread? If so, your curiosity has probably already been satisfied. If not, I advise you to do so.
    I did read the thread. I wanted to know if you had made any changes that had not been posted yet, since the thread seemed to die off amid a discussion on balance. Apparently, the answer is "no".

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    Default Re: Martial Ranger [Base]

    Sorry. Looking back I realize you had commented earlier, whereas making that comment, I somehow thought you were a new person.

    Oh, and would ranged threat be more balanced if it only worked within a 30-foot cone?

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    Default Re: Martial Ranger [Base]

    Yeah, I need to make myself a unique avatar. (...maybe a psionic wizard T-Rex... )

    Well, the reason I'm so on-the-fence about it is that is both highly powerful and highly situational. If you have a situation where people are doing a lot of stuff that provokes attacks of opportunity, you can combine it with Combat Reflexes to tear entire armies apart. A lot of stuff provokes attacks of opportunity: Spells, potions, movement, bull rush, ranged attacks -- ahhh...now I see the problem. Like an ass, I forgot all of that other stuff that provokes attacks of opportunity.

    It's not just "shoot anyone that moves", it's "skewer anyone within 30-feet who dares do anything other than a melee attack or a five-foot-step, and then force them to make Concentration checks to continue acting".

    Hmm...how about this:

    Ranged Threat

    Benefit: As a free action on your turn, select one foe within 30 feet or the range of your weapon, whichever is lower. As long as your designated foe is within this range, you may make a single ranged attack of opportunity on him. If an enemy moves onto or through the line-of-effect to your target, you may attack that enemy instead.

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    Default Re: Martial Ranger [Base]

    I like my 30-foot cone idea better.

    Hmm. Hang on. If an opponent does multiple AoO-provoking things in your threatened area, does he provoke multiple AoOs, or just one?

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    Default Re: Martial Ranger [Base]

    Ranged Threat:When the martial ranger is wielding a ranged weapon, he is considered to have 30-foot reach for the purpose of determining his threatened area, and he gains the ability to make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon. A martial ranger can only make one AoO per round per target using this threatened area, even if the martial ranger has combat reflexes. Combat reflexes does allow the martial ranger to AoO more than one target in the same round using this threatened area. In order to take an attack of opportunity with a ranged weapon, the martial ranger must have line of effect to his target. The martial ranger must have selected the ranged flanking special ability prior to taking this one.

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    Default Re: Martial Ranger [Base]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Ranged Threat:When the martial ranger is wielding a ranged weapon, he is considered to have 30-foot reach for the purpose of determining his threatened area, and he gains the ability to make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon. A martial ranger can only make one AoO per round per target using this threatened area, even if the martial ranger has combat reflexes. Combat reflexes does allow the martial ranger to AoO more than one target in the same round using this threatened area. In order to take an attack of opportunity with a ranged weapon, the martial ranger must have line of effect to his target. The martial ranger must have selected the ranged flanking special ability prior to taking this one.
    This is almost precisely what I'm looking for. Thank you.
    Last edited by Lord Iames Osari; 2006-12-12 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Martial Ranger [Base]

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles Invictus View Post
    I have to admit, I rather like the Horizon Walker's stuff. And I also like the idea of having multiple style masteries.

    You had some good points, but here you lost me. You're saying that 6 bonus-feat-equivalent style bonuses (which ignore prerequisites!), 2 "nifty style" feats, 6 Terrain Masteries, and 4 bonus feats are somehow weaker than 8 bonus feats and 6 special abilities?!
    Like you said, unnamed bonus feats are a lot more powerful than pre-destined bonus feats. Your M-Ranger, as listed, could easily get some of the more broken feat combos nearly as early as a Fighter could (like Power Attack/Shock Trooper) using weapon selections that aren't very typical for Rangers (like using a Greatsword with the above feat selection).

    Sure, you're getting two different feat chains, but you can only use one at a time. One is for ranged combat, the other for TWF (which, as you pointed out, is not as broken as a 2h Power Attacking smasher).

    And most of the Terrain masteries give bonuses to ranger-ish skills and a +1 against monsters from that terrain type. They cannot stack because only one will apply at a time. The only major Terrain benifit is Underground which gives 60' Darkvision. The rest are skill bonuses.

    This will encourage Rangers to be more Rangery and less Figher Wannabeish. They should have a unique nitche in the game without stepping on anyone else's toes. That's why the pre-selected feats rather than the flat bonus feats (which is the only thing the Fighter has going for him).
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2006-12-13 at 11:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Martial Ranger [Base]

    If you pick up Quick Draw and equip throwing weapons, you can use both combat styles at the same time. Granted, your accuracy might go down a bit, but hey -- that's what a full BAB is for. Well, that and Weapon Focus, Point-Blank Shot, and the Terrain Masteries (which cover a lot of ground).

    Basically, at level 20 you get 9 ranged attacks per round (4 primary, 4 off-hand, 1 from Rapid Shot) for -2 or -1 to hit. And you'll still have a regular bonus feat and an archery style feat to spend. And none of these abilities have any serious prerequisites -- you don't have to sacrifice at all to gain them.

    The equivalent path for the Martial Ranger would consume more than its allotment of bonus feats: Perfect TWF takes 4, Improved Precise Shot takes 3, then Rapid Shot, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus. Ten feats. On top of that, the player needs 25 Dex to pick up Perfect TWF (as part of a combat style, your Ranger presumably gets it for free).

    That's not to say every Ranger is going to do such...but if I am given a class with two free combat styles, I'm sure as hell going to try and get them to synergize properly.

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    Default Re: Martial Ranger [Base]

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles Invictus View Post
    If you pick up Quick Draw and equip throwing weapons, you can use both combat styles at the same time. Granted, your accuracy might go down a bit, but hey -- that's what a full BAB is for. Well, that and Weapon Focus, Point-Blank Shot, and the Terrain Masteries (which cover a lot of ground).

    Basically, at level 20 you get 9 ranged attacks per round (4 primary, 4 off-hand, 1 from Rapid Shot) for -2 or -1 to hit. And you'll still have a regular bonus feat and an archery style feat to spend. And none of these abilities have any serious prerequisites -- you don't have to sacrifice at all to gain them.

    The equivalent path for the Martial Ranger would consume more than its allotment of bonus feats: Perfect TWF takes 4, Improved Precise Shot takes 3, then Rapid Shot, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus. Ten feats. On top of that, the player needs 25 Dex to pick up Perfect TWF (as part of a combat style, your Ranger presumably gets it for free).

    That's not to say every Ranger is going to do such...but if I am given a class with two free combat styles, I'm sure as hell going to try and get them to synergize properly.
    Sure, you could do that, and do around 1d6 per shot. Or you could, as the currently statted M-Ranger, get Power Attack, Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Leaping Charge. Which does more damage? Let's see... the build I came up with does (2d6*(Str*1.5))*3 and can be done easily by level 10. Furthermore, just to make this cheeze really stink, let's toss in EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. Spiked Chain is, in fact, a two-handed weapon, so he'll only loose an average of two points (2d4 rather than 2d6) of damage, but is able to cut a wide swath through a whole horde of creatures.

    The Ranger I have listed can't be doing upwards of 130+ damage per round nearly as easily as the one statted.
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    Default Re: Martial Ranger [Base]

    ok, how about the Martial Ranger gets fewer bonus feats then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Iames Osari View Post
    ok, how about the Martial Ranger gets fewer bonus feats then?
    That was, ultimately, what my original suggestion was. I also highly suggest you space them out so as to prevent the dreaded 'cheeze dipping sauce' syndrome. This is why I suggested at those levels in which they would normally gain spell levels. It's spaced out, and there's four of 'em. Toss in the Terrain stuff (specifically, the non-planar stuff) and they should be good to go. I'd still like to see them get Track and Swift Tracker, though. Come on, every real Ranger who has ever been taken seriously, from Aragorn to Dr***t, has been able to track their opponents down. Even the Urban Ranger variants used Track, they simply used it in a different fashion. It's not going to break the character class, and gives another string for the GM to pull to get the plot moving again.
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    Default Re: Martial Ranger [Base]

    Trooper
    Alignment: Any.
    Vitality Die: d8.
    {table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
    1st|+1|+2|+2|+0|Bonus feat
    2nd|+2|+3|+3|+0|~
    3rd|+3|+3|+3|+1|Bonus feat
    4th|+4|+4|+4|+1|~
    5th|+5|+4|+4|+1|~
    6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+2|Bonus feat
    7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+2|Special ability
    8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+2|~
    9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+3|Bonus feat
    10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+3|Special ability
    11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+3|~
    12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+4|Bonus feat
    13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+4|Special ability
    14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+4|~
    15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+5|Bonus feat
    16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Special ability
    17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+5|~
    18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+6|Bonus feat
    19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+6|Special ability
    20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+6|~[/table]Class Skills
    The soldier's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Intimidation (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (war) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

    Class Features
    Weapon and Armor Proficency: The soldier is proficient in all simple and martial weapons and in light armor and shields.
    Bonus Feats: At 1st and 3rd level, and every third level thereafter, the soldier gains the Track feat or a feat from the fighter bonus feat list. Note that the soldier must still meet all prerequisites for the feats he selects.
    Special Abilities: At 7th level, and every third level thereafter, the soldier gains a special ability, which can be chosen from the following list. The soldier's special abilities only function when he is wearing light or no armor, and all of them are extraordinary.
    • Light Sleeper: Whenever the soldier is sleeping, he gains a bonus to all Listen checks equal to half his soldier level (maximum +10). Note that sleeping characters usually have a -10 penalty to all Listen checks.
    • Evasion: The soldier gains the evasion ability.
    • Ranged Flanking: When the soldier is wielding a ranged weapon, he threatens foes (for purposes of flanking only) from up to 30 feet away. In order to threaten an enemy in this way, he must have line of effect, and his foe must be aware of his presence. Normally, you can only flank enemies with melee weapons.
    • Ranged Threat: When the soldier is wielding a ranged weapon, he is considered to threaten in a 30-foot cone as well as his normal threatened area, and he gains the ability to make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon. A soldier can only make one attack of opportunity per round per target using this threatened area, even if the soldier has combat reflexes. Combat Reflexes does allow the soldier to make more than one attack of opportunity against different targets in the same round using this threatened area. In order to take an attack of opportunity with a ranged weapon, the soldier must have line of effect to his target. The soldier must have selected the ranged flanking special ability prior to taking this ability. A soldier attacking with a ranged weapon in melee combat provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
    • Defensive Roll: The soldier gains the ability to roll with otherwise lethal attacks, as the rogue ability of the same name.
    • Skill Mastery: The soldier selects a number of skills equal to 3 + his Intelligence modifier. He can take 10 on those skills even when distractions or other adverse conditions would otherwise prevent him from doing so.
    • Camouflage: The soldier can use the Hide skill in any kind of terrain, even if it does not provide cover or concealment.
    • Unimpeded Stride: The soldier's speed is unaffected by mundane impediments such as undergrowth, rubble, mud, or the like. Magically enhanced impediments have their full effect on him.
    [hr]
    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    That was, ultimately, what my original suggestion was. I also highly suggest you space them out so as to prevent the dreaded 'cheeze dipping sauce' syndrome. This is why I suggested at those levels in which they would normally gain spell levels. It's spaced out, and there's four of 'em.
    I've arranged it so that they gain a bonus feat every time they would normally gain a feat. Is that okay?

    Toss in the Terrain stuff (specifically, the non-planar stuff) and they should be good to go. I'd still like to see them get Track and Swift Tracker, though. Come on, every real Ranger who has ever been taken seriously, from Aragorn to Dr***t, has been able to track their opponents down. Even the Urban Ranger variants used Track, they simply used it in a different fashion. It's not going to break the character class, and gives another string for the GM to pull to get the plot moving again.
    I guess I should rename the class. In fact, I will. The class formerly known as the martial ranger is now known as the soldier, which better captures the flavor of it. Also, you seem to have forgotten that Track is on their list of bonus feats.
    Last edited by Lord Iames Osari; 2006-12-18 at 12:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Martial Ranger [Base]

    Umm... Soldier is already statted... it's the D20 Star Wars version of a Fighter.

    A Soldier wouldn't have any of the special abilities listed. They're far more suited to a Rogue or Scout than Soldier.

    If you wish this to be a Scout variant, I could see this as being somewhat overpwered, but at least thematically correct.

    I'd drop 2 bonus feats and a HD size for Improved Evasion, Ranged Threat, crapton of extra skill points, Trapfinding, and HIPS any day of the week.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2006-12-14 at 08:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Soldier (Formerly Martial Ranger) [Base]

    Yes, I know that the Soldier is already the name of a class in the Star Wars d20 game. However, this class is not for Star Wars d20, so I fail to see your point.

    Edit: Now, 4 skill points per level. Improved Evasion, trapper, trapfinding, and hide in plain sight are gone from the special ability list. Is that better?
    Last edited by Lord Iames Osari; 2006-12-14 at 09:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Soldier (Formerly Martial Ranger) [Base]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Iames Osari View Post
    Yes, I know that the Soldier is already the name of a class in the Star Wars d20 game. However, this class is not for Star Wars d20, so I fail to see your point.

    Edit: Now, 4 skill points per level. Improved Evasion, trapper, trapfinding, and hide in plain sight are gone from the special ability list. Is that better?
    *rolls his eyes*

    It's not the abilities that are the problem. It's the bonus feats.

    Bonus feats are a Fighter thing. Wizard is the ONLY other core class with bonus feats, and his are limited to metamagic and item creation. Giving other classes bonus feats in job lots is just making a better Fighter.

    I also notice that you took out thematically nice but effectively worthless (trapper and trapfinding) and the less powerful abilities (improved evasion only is handy if you fail a save and HIPS is only handy if you have a lot of ranks in Hide), but didn't bother with the two I've been saying are overpowered to begin with: Ranged Threat and Ranged Flanking, both of which are horridly broken.

    You're doing anything and everything to retain your bonus feats, when that is the core of my argument about the class.

    You've taken away all the flavor, and replaced it with bonus feats. If that isn't munchkinism, I don't know what is...

    Ultimately, I think I'm going to have to discontinue discussing this since it's clear that we are never going to come to an agreement on this. Go ahead and make your class however you want to. Just don't expect any sane GM to ever allow it in their game.
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    Default Re: Soldier (Formerly Martial Ranger) [Base]

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    *rolls his eyes*

    It's not the abilities that are the problem. It's the bonus feats.

    Bonus feats are a Fighter thing. Wizard is the ONLY other core class with bonus feats, and his are limited to metamagic and item creation.
    I refer you to the Monk, and also the Rogue, whose special abilities can be used to buy any feat. By RAW, the rogue doesn't even have to meet the prerequisites.

    Giving other classes bonus feats in job lots is just making a better Fighter.
    Mmhmm. And in a game where it has been conclusively demonstrated that casters PWN, making a better non-magic-using class is a bad thing? And while we're on the subject, do you have similar objections to the classes in Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords?

    I also notice that you took out thematically nice but effectively worthless (trapper and trapfinding) and the less powerful abilities (improved evasion only is handy if you fail a save and HIPS is only handy if you have a lot of ranks in Hide), but didn't bother with the two I've been saying are overpowered to begin with: Ranged Threat and Ranged Flanking, both of which are horridly broken.
    What has been taken out can be put back in. And I really must disagree with you on Ranged Flanking. Ranged Threat, I will admit, needs more tweaking. Edit: I just revised Ranged Threat.

    You're doing anything and everything to retain your bonus feats, when that is the core of my argument about the class.

    You've taken away all the flavor, and replaced it with bonus feats. If that isn't munchkinism, I don't know what is...
    I have reduced the number of bonus feats, spaced them out, and taken away certain special abilities that I thought did not fit the flavor of the class - which is, allow me to remind you, is that of a slightly more modern-style soldier. And tell me, how much flavor does your precious Fighter class have?

    Ultimately, I think I'm going to have to discontinue discussing this since it's clear that we are never going to come to an agreement on this. Go ahead and make your class however you want to. Just don't expect any sane GM to ever allow it in their game.
    Sanity is so subjective, isn't it? Fortunately for me, I am the GM.
    Last edited by Lord Iames Osari; 2006-12-14 at 11:03 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Soldier (Formerly Martial Ranger) [Base]

    Class name. No need to reuse a name already in a pretty mainstream d20 product! Thesaurus to the rescue!

    Using thesaurus.com:
    Soldier
    Infantry*
    Private*
    Trooper*
    Doughboy*
    Mercenary/Merc*
    Serviceman
    Commando
    Dogface
    Freelance
    Legionnaire
    Guerrilla
    GI/GI Joe
    Combatant

    I particularly like Infantry and Trooper.

    Calling it Infantry lets you make a Dragoon or Cavalry class. :)

    You want your class to gain something every level.

    And you want levels 10 to 20 to give better stuff than lower levels, to deal with spellcaster scaling and prestige class competition.

    This may require minor abilities added to the class for filler. Heck, you could make two tiers of special abilities, one you get at low level, and one you get at higher level.

    The holes are currently L 4, and L 2 and every 3 levels after L 2.

    So toss in an ability at L 4 (say, light sleeper -- which is the weakest of the Soldier's special abilities). At L 2 and every 3 levels, give some minor benefit.

    How about 1/day charges of some combat move?
    Snipe: Full round action. Take a single ranged attack with a to-hit modifier equal to your Wisdom, and a damage bonus equal to infantry level/2.
    Dodge and Weave: Gain infantry level/2 AC and a Wisdom Reflex save modifier against ranged attacks and spells for one round. Free action.
    Hunker Down: Improve cover by infantry level/2 against attacks from a specific direction. This bonus lasts Wisdom bonus rounds, plus 1 for every 3 infantry levels (min 1). This bonus is eroded by 1 point every time you attack or otherwise expose yourself. Full round action.
    Grunt's Luck: An attack that could have missed does (wisdom bonus) less damage. Every 4 infantry levels adds 1 to the damage soaked.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Soldier (Formerly Martial Ranger) [Base]

    Why is it so important to give an ability at every level? Plenty of classes, core and non-core alike, don't.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Soldier (Formerly Martial Ranger) [Base]

    The better designed core classes give something at each level.

    Be it a "per level" ability upgrade (paladin LoH), new spells, or something to set them apart.

    At the very least, it gives the player of the class something to get excited about when they gain a level.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Soldier (Formerly Martial Ranger) [Base]

    So what is it now... a fighter with only light armor proff., a smaller HD, more skills and a slightly different bonus feat progresion.

    How about you just make Ranged Flanking a feat available to fighters (prereq: Point Blank Shot) and call it a day.

    I didn't say Flanged Threat, becouse that's broken:
    "The mage moves from 15ft from you to 25ft from you..."
    "I take my attack of oppotunity."
    "...and casts a spell."
    "And I take another attack of oppotunity."

    If you want to Evasion, multiclass. If you want camoflage, multicalss. If you want Defensive Roll, or Unimpeeded Stride, mulitclass.
    We the Unwilling,
    Lead by the Unqualified,
    Have been doing the Unimagineble
    For so Long, with so Little,
    That we shall now attempt the Impossible
    With Nothing!

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Soldier (Formerly Martial Ranger) [Base]

    Quote Originally Posted by magic8BALL View Post
    So what is it now... a fighter with only light armor proff., a smaller HD, more skills and a slightly different bonus feat progresion.

    How about you just make Ranged Flanking a feat available to fighters (prereq: Point Blank Shot) and call it a day.

    I didn't say Flanged Threat, becouse that's broken:
    "The mage moves from 15ft from you to 25ft from you..."
    "I take my attack of oppotunity."
    "...and casts a spell."
    "And I take another attack of oppotunity."

    If you want to Evasion, multiclass. If you want camoflage, multicalss. If you want Defensive Roll, or Unimpeeded Stride, mulitclass.
    If you read the revised text of the Ranged Threat ability, you can only make one AoO per opponent. Thus, the situation you just described is prevented.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Soldier (Formerly Martial Ranger) [Base]

    I have made a stronger version of this class; it's essentially a fighter with your special abilities and combat styles;

    Combat styles at third, seventh, and twelfth
    Bonus feats at first, second, and every other level thereafter.
    Special abilities at eighth and every two levels thereafter

    This is stronger, but I allow fighters a feat every level, d12 hit die, and more skills, so I believe they balance out. It just seemed like yours was a weaker fighter for the first five levels...

    cheers,
    Siberys
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Soldier (Formerly Martial Ranger) [Base]

    Quote Originally Posted by Siberys View Post
    I have made a stronger version of this class; it's essentially a fighter with your special abilities and combat styles;

    Combat styles at third, seventh, and twelfth
    Bonus feats at first, second, and every other level thereafter.
    Special abilities at eighth and every two levels thereafter

    This is stronger, but I allow fighters a feat every level, d12 hit die, and more skills, so I believe they balance out. It just seemed like yours was a weaker fighter for the first five levels...

    cheers,
    Siberys
    Wait, I'm confused... first you say that your class was stronger, then you say that my class is stronger. @_@

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Soldier (Formerly Martial Ranger) [Base]

    In both cases I meant mine was stronger...

    Also, I forgot to say that I allow fighters the Weapon Focus chain free at the levels the feats first become available.

    sorry for the confusion!

    cheers,
    Siberys
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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Soldier (Formerly Martial Ranger) [Base]

    I don't like the new Trooper. The Martial Ranger, in my mind, seemed to be a Ranger without the need to use two weapon fighting or multishot, neither of which I like. Now it's just doesn't seem to have many skill points, which is one thing rangers are good at having
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