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Thread: Tunnel Sizes

  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    If you want people to be able to escape quickly and efficiently in case of a fire, you want wide hallways and doors which don't swing into the hallway.
    Wouldn't it be better to make areas easy to seal? In a stone environment, the concern is smoke rather than the spread of the fire itself, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geordnet View Post
    Like, what you'd find in a dungeon linking rooms, when there's no particular reason for it to be a certain size (like wider or narrower than usual).
    I'm pretty sure that Emmerask's point was that several reasons for a tunnel's size will always be particular. (If there is no reason for a tunnel of any given size to be there, then no tunnel will be present, of course.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Geordnet View Post
    6' is tall enough for all civilized races (in most D&D settings) to not have to bend over while walking. Why need the ceilings be any higher?
    Races do not walk down tunnels; individuals do. ;) If I've done my math right, then 28% of adult male humans are 6' tall or taller, based on the Random Height and Weight Table. So 7' tall if you want to accommodate all humans. And humans are generally assumed to be as common as muck, so their needs are a non-trivial consideration.

    (On the other hand, I think it's typical for their prominence to be a historically recent thing, too, so that's something to take into consideration regarding Ancient Catacombs from Before the Age of Man.)

    3'x6' is much smaller than you think.
    Last edited by Devils_Advocate; 2013-05-07 at 04:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to make areas easy to seal? In a stone environment, the concern is smoke rather than the spread of the fire itself, right?
    1. Doors don't block fire or smoke. If you block the hallway, you doom anyone still inside and impede rescue and recovery efforts.

    2. If a door opens such that it obstructs a hallway, that means people in the room are trapped inside by mobs of people trying to evacuate (their mass preventing the door from opening), or the door will block the mobs from evacuating. Also, it's not very convenient or safe to walk down a hall and suddenly have a door swing open into your face . This is why doors usually open inwards (swinging into the room or building) rather than outwards, especially in places with well-enforced building codes.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2013-05-07 at 06:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmerask View Post
    It was more a question about why anyone would think that there is such a thing like normed tunnel sizes
    Because most GMs aren't going to write a separate height and width for every tunnel, they're going to write down one "average" size and assume all tunnels are that size unless noted otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    So 7' tall if you want to accommodate all humans. And humans are generally assumed to be as common as muck, so their needs are a non-trivial consideration.
    7' tall is only necessary if you want to comfortably accommodate all humans. By your own calculations, at least 72% of humans are 6' or shorter. Even if humans are commonplace on the surface, it's reasonable to assume that in a primarily non-human location they'd make up no more than 10% of the traffic. And for anywhere other than a tavern, or other public place where human visitors may be expected, human needs are trivial. Either way, nobody's going to spend 17% more money to accommodate any more than necessary.


    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    3'x6' is much smaller than you think.
    I think it's 2' shorter than the 3'x8' halls in my house; 1' shorter than my 3'x7' doors.


    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    1. Doors don't block fire or smoke.
    Yes they do!

    Air is something we take for granted on the surface, but it's in short supply underground. Aside from a few sealable ventilation shafts, the doors and halls are the only ways for fresh air to reach the fire. The crack under the door is too small for gasses to exchange through fast enough to keep the fire up, and it takes even a very strong fire a lot of time to burn solid oak or pine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    If you block the hallway, you doom anyone still inside and impede rescue and recovery efforts.
    Anyone who isn't out in 5-10 minutes is already dead from asphyxiation, and the best way to stop the fire from burning everything is to starve it of oxygen first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geordnet View Post
    Anyone who isn't out in 5-10 minutes is already dead from asphyxiation
    Which is why you want people to have a clear, unimpeded path away from the fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    Races do not walk down tunnels; individuals do. ;) If I've done my math right, then 28% of adult male humans are 6' tall or taller, based on the Random Height and Weight Table. So 7' tall if you want to accommodate all humans. And humans are generally assumed to be as common as muck, so their needs are a non-trivial consideration.

    (On the other hand, I think it's typical for their prominence to be a historically recent thing, too, so that's something to take into consideration regarding Ancient Catacombs from Before the Age of Man.)

    3'x6' is much smaller than you think.
    Also, standing height is not a true indication of walking height. A person's head bobs up and down as they walk, thanks to the mechanics of a walking gait. A ceiling that is exactly your height will cause you to either stoop or repeatedly bash your head as you walk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Also, standing height is not a true indication of walking height. A person's head bobs up and down as they walk, thanks to the mechanics of a walking gait. A ceiling that is exactly your height will cause you to either stoop or repeatedly bash your head as you walk.
    People also wear big silly hats, helmets, socks, height-increasing footwear (boots and high-heels come to mind), and sometimes carry long pointy things called spears.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2013-05-08 at 09:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Tunnel Sizes

    Doors in a house are not as expensive to build as a tunnel through granite, and are therefore not a valid comparison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Doors in a house are not as expensive to build as a tunnel through granite, and are therefore not a valid comparison.
    You're right; the tunnels should be smaller.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Also, standing height is not a true indication of walking height. A person's head bobs up and down as they walk, thanks to the mechanics of a walking gait. A ceiling that is exactly your height will cause you to either stoop or repeatedly bash your head as you walk.
    I factored that into my calculations. (It's only a few inches, anyways.)
    Last edited by Geordnet; 2013-05-08 at 03:33 PM.

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    Sorry. I don't want to interrupt the conversation but what example would you give as a "standard D&D tunnel"?
    Are we talking a mine shaft, an (usually) one-way pathway, a catacomb?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asheram View Post
    Sorry. I don't want to interrupt the conversation but what example would you give as a "standard D&D tunnel"?
    Are we talking a mine shaft, an (usually) one-way pathway, a catacomb?
    Well, none specificly. Basically, the original question was about what the width should be when the GM's notes just say "tunnel". Conventionally it's 5' wide because that's the width of one standard tile, and 8' tall; however, I don't think that makes sense from an IC point of view.

    My argument was that anything bigger than 3'-4'x6' would need a good reason to be that big, since carving out a tunnel is a laborous and costly endeavor; nobody's going to pay more than they have to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geordnet View Post
    My argument was that anything bigger than 3'-4'x6' would need a good reason to be that big, since carving out a tunnel is a laborous and costly endeavor; nobody's going to pay more than they have to.
    You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.
    +1 Internets to you, sir. In fact, I'd like to stuff this into my quotebox (right alongside your earlier quote!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geordnet View Post
    My argument was that anything bigger than 3'-4'x6' would need a good reason to be that big, since carving out a tunnel is a laborous and costly endeavor; nobody's going to pay more than they have to.
    Well, you could be making it with magic. Every spell I can find that would be relevant to digging (from the humble method of making the job easier with Soften Earth and Stone to the very direct approach of blasting out chunks with Disintegrate or Transmute Rock to Mud) operates in multiples of 5 feet, usually in 10 foot squares or cubes. (Also the only official rules I know of for mining out passages- given as a new use of the Profession skill in Races of the Dragon- measure results in.. 5 foot cubes. So it's actually more work to make something that isn't 5 feet wide x some multiple of 5 feet tall, because you automatically dig out these MineCraft-like blocks when you go mining.)

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    Something you're forgetting: They not only need to be able to walk under those ceilings, they need to be able to have a full range of motion.

    Since I'm unable to find average data for humans easily, I'm going to go with some rough numbers that should be in the ballpark and say that overhead extension is about 20 inches, or just over an additional foot-and-a-half. Armspan is approximately 70 inches, or almost six feet (which I actually do know; I remember finding that information at one time, in, of all things, a museum exhibit on birds). Shoulder width is also roughly 20 inches.

    Anything that's exactly the size of one's armspan or smaller will restrict movement, thereby making it impossible to fight effectively, which for most D&D tunnels is a major concern. Even if it's not, it'll still cause issues, by doing things like making it difficult to carry objects to one side.

    Overhead extension is, to some extent, less important in corridors, but it becomes pretty much necessary in living quarters, for reasons such as putting on clothes.

    Shoulder width, meanwhile, means you need at least an extra 6, almost seven, inches, assuming you want two people to be able to walk side-by-side. And that's with only 3 inches between them, which is probably the minimum comfortable distance.

    You're also neglecting the fact that ceilings are good places to hang lights from, as it will provide pretty much the maximum coverage for that area, and allows one to simply drill a straight shaft above it in order to let smoke escape*. If you want people to not be banging their heads on the lanterns or having to duck down every time they reach one, as well as being blinded by having to stare straight at each of them or be stooped over/cricking their neck by keeping it turned constantly/walking with their eyes closed, you'll either need to widen the corridor so as to allow them to walk past with a safe margin on either side and not be staring at it, or raise the ceiling so it's over their heads.

    *Assuming one is relatively near the surface, of course. In lower sections, it's probably more viable to make the shaft turn, then go up through the walls of higher sections until it eventually reaches the surface. Buildup of particulates in the shafts due to smoke, dirt blown in from outside, etc., can be handled by various means, including having one of the duties of the acolytes in a temple be to use Create Water at the outlets for whichever ones are scheduled to be cleaned, and having a team below them to catch the water.

    This option is likely the most attractive one in most cases, as the resulting water, while unfit for most consumption, can still be used for hydroponics, or even simply watering plants normally. Also, in Pathfinder, it can be cast as many times a day as necessary, and no matter what system you use, it only requires being at one end of the shaft, rather than having to have access points along the entire thing.

    There's also the advantage that as water elementals are, theoretically, capable of changing shape, and can presumably breathe underwater, a 3rd level Cleric can send one in to clear actual blockages after this has been done, should it be necessary for some reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.
    Adding this to my signature cause it is so true

    Its true the rules support, the idea of mining and creating thing in 5', 5', 5' blocks
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    Quote Originally Posted by C'nor View Post
    Something you're forgetting: They not only need to be able to walk under those ceilings, they need to be able to have a full range of motion.
    I was assuming a tunnel which exists merely to walk through, not stand around doing stuff in.

    At most, you might need to be able to squeeze by someone coming the other way; but even a narrow tunnel can have alcoves for that.


    Quote Originally Posted by C'nor View Post
    Anything that's exactly the size of one's armspan or smaller will restrict movement, thereby making it impossible to fight effectively, which for most D&D tunnels is a major concern.
    Tunnels which are hard to fight in favor the defender; which is a reason to make tunnels smaller.


    Quote Originally Posted by C'nor View Post
    Even if it's not, it'll still cause issues, by doing things like making it difficult to carry objects to one side.
    That's why mine carts exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by C'nor View Post
    Overhead extension is, to some extent, less important in corridors, but it becomes pretty much necessary in living quarters, for reasons such as putting on clothes.
    I would think they're doing that in their bedroom, which is another issue entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by C'nor View Post
    Shoulder width, meanwhile, means you need at least an extra 6, almost seven, inches, assuming you want two people to be able to walk side-by-side. And that's with only 3 inches between them, which is probably the minimum comfortable distance.
    Assuming that the tunnel needs to comfortably hold two people side-by-side. Unless you expect a tunnel to have constant traffic, it probably doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by C'nor View Post
    You're also neglecting the fact that ceilings are good places to hang lights from, as it will provide pretty much the maximum coverage for that area, and allows one to simply drill a straight shaft above it in order to let smoke escape*.
    You expect tunnel lights to be standard (or even common) in a pre-electricity society?

    Especially when most underground creatures have darkvision?

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    The size of a tunnel will change depending on how long it's intended to be in existence, how heavily the tunnel is used, and what the intended use of the tunnel is.

    The primary resource of digging a tunnel isn't monetary cost, it's manpower and hours spent. If you have spare hours and/or manpower, it's not an expense.

    If you have a long tunnel that is not important and is rarely used, odds are it will be basic.

    If you have a tunnel that is used frequently, people are more likely to make it more spacious and comfortable. Similarly, if a tunnel has been around and in use for a long period of time, the odds are higher that people will put in the extra effort.

    If you have a tunnel that links an underwater dock and a warehouse, it is going to be sized for wagons and it probably won't have staircases or tight turns.

    I do think your assessment of 6 feet high tunnels is too low for a race of similar height to humans - the ceiling would be spaced to make all members within a reasonable height spread (ie not exceptional) be comfortable. 7 feet is a good start and it would probably be a little higher.
    Last edited by Kudaku; 2013-05-17 at 06:47 PM.

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    I was assuming a tunnel which exists merely to walk through, not stand around doing stuff in.

    At most, you might need to be able to squeeze by someone coming the other way; but even a narrow tunnel can have alcoves for that.
    Meh, see below.

    Tunnels which are hard to fight in favor the defender; which is a reason to make tunnels smaller.
    Unless, say, you're using things like the dwarven Ugrosh. Or the longaxe and longhammer. Also, even if you're using normal weapons, something like an axe or a mace, traditionally dwarven weapons, is going to be much less useful in a smaller tunnel, where you can't swing it properly, than a thrusting sword, which allows the larger opponent the tunnel is theoretically designed to combat to turn sideways, like a fencer, and stab you while you're trying to get enough power into your swings to actually do any damage.

    That's why mine carts exist.
    You're going to carry your cat in a mine cart? Or that, probably fragile, flask of acid? Good luck with that...

    I would think they're doing that in their bedroom, which is another issue entirely.
    I did make the point that that would be less important in corridors. That said, it's still important for fighting.

    Assuming that the tunnel needs to comfortably hold two people side-by-side. Unless you expect a tunnel to have constant traffic, it probably doesn't.
    Not true. if it experiences constant, but low-grade traffic, it's entirely possible that it would still not need that. On the other hand, if it experiences traffic exceedingly rarely, but the traffic is heavy when it does occur, you will need that. Considering that you can't necessarily say how traffic patterns might change over hundreds of years, and tunnels are a bitch to alter once you've already built stuff around them that would get in the way, it's a good idea to always include that capacity when first building it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geordnet View Post
    You expect tunnel lights to be standard (or even common) in a pre-electricity society?

    Especially when most underground creatures have darkvision?
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    The subject gains the ability to see 60 feet even in total darkness. Darkvision is black and white only but otherwise like normal sight.
    Most creatures prefer to, y'know, be able to see color. They also prefer to have more vision than this would provide them. So yes. I do expect tunnel lighting to be common.

    If for no other reason, you're underground creatures, but most underground creatures which are playable do not have weaknesses to light. Not only does that imply that they routinely use light, they also have enemies such as the drow who are weak to bright light, and thus that provides an advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C'nor View Post
    Unless, say, you're using things like the dwarven Ugrosh. Or the longaxe and longhammer. Also, even if you're using normal weapons, something like an axe or a mace, traditionally dwarven weapons, is going to be much less useful in a smaller tunnel, where you can't swing it properly, than a thrusting sword, which allows the larger opponent the tunnel is theoretically designed to combat to turn sideways, like a fencer, and stab you while you're trying to get enough power into your swings to actually do any damage.
    The defender's being stupid then, because he's trying to kill the attacker using methods that are designed to be used in large spaces.

    With a narrow tunnel the best tool for the defender is a broad shield, with which one person can block the entire tunnel. Add a second defender with a short pike stuck through a small gap, and you can hold off dozens of attackers for as long as your endurance holds up.

    (You don't actually have to kill the attackers, after all. You just need to delay them, buying your own forces time to counterattack from the flank/rear, prepare the next line of defences, or evacuate, according to the relative strength of the attacker.)


    "Traditional Dwarven" just means "what geeks thought were cool at the time", anyways.


    Quote Originally Posted by C'nor View Post
    You're going to carry your cat in a mine cart? Or that, probably fragile, flask of acid? Good luck with that...
    Why exactly are you carrying something down a tunnel that wasn't designed to handle such loads?

    If something needs to be somewhere, there will be one tunnel capable of bringing it there. Just one. Every other tunnel will be just big enough for whatever is designed to go down it, which we're assuming is a person.


    Quote Originally Posted by C'nor View Post
    Considering that you can't necessarily say how traffic patterns might change over hundreds of years, and tunnels are a bitch to alter once you've already built stuff around them that would get in the way, it's a good idea to always include that capacity when first building it.
    Actually, you can't build stuff that close together underground because all the walls need to be load-bearing. Not that it matters much, why exactly are you squishing a tunnel between two rooms in the first place? Especially given the ability to work in three dimensions?


    Quote Originally Posted by C'nor View Post
    Most creatures prefer to, y'know, be able to see color. They also prefer to have more vision than this would provide them.
    Most creatures prefer breathing even more, though, and oxygen is in short supply underground. Wood and oil, too.

    It would be much more efficient to use light sparingly, instead of trying to light the halls all the time, even when there's no one around to appreciate it.


    Quote Originally Posted by C'nor View Post
    If for no other reason, you're underground creatures, but most underground creatures which are playable do not have weaknesses to light. Not only does that imply that they routinely use light, they also have enemies such as the drow who are weak to bright light, and thus that provides an advantage.
    The only bright light they're going to get underground is magical light; not torches and definitely not lanterns. So, a large enough settlement would keep around some scrolls and oils of Daylight, but not much beyond that unless we're talking about entire underground cities.

    As for other implications, they are very much a matter of interpretation. It seems more likely to me that the lack of light weakness is merely a matter of random chance, since there is no force of natural selection either way. Or, it could be a supernatural product of how much said races have meddled in black magic. Even if it is indicative of a usage of light, this could just mean the race uses light period; compared to the light-vulnerable races which don't use it at all.
    Last edited by Geordnet; 2013-05-19 at 11:41 AM.

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    Most creatures prefer breathing even more, though, and oxygen is in short supply underground. Wood and oil, too.

    It would be much more efficient to use light sparingly, instead of trying to light the halls all the time, even when there's no one around to appreciate it.
    Assuming D&D, there's a second level Sorcerer/Wizard spell for that. 50 GP but it's permanent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    Assuming D&D, there's a second level Sorcerer/Wizard spell for that. 50 GP but it's permanent.
    Well, if you're going to dump that much money on it...

    Not everyone's as rich as an adventurer, you know? 500 SP a pop ain't cheap, and that's not even accounting for the casting cost. (The overall cost would be comparable to decorating the tunnel with suits of armor.)
    Last edited by Geordnet; 2013-05-19 at 12:42 PM.

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    Well, what else are you going to do with any rubies you accidentally come across whilst you're digging a home? You could sell them for comparatively little (for an entire economy), or permanent, risk-free lighting.
    Things to avoid:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geordnet View Post
    Well, if you're going to dump that much money on it...

    Not everyone's as rich as an adventurer, you know? 500 SP a pop ain't cheap, and that's not even accounting for the casting cost. (The overall cost would be comparable to decorating the tunnel with suits of armor.)
    Each torch lasts for one hour, and is 1 copper = 0.01 gold. Someone needs to change these torches every hour (and that someone's labor costs something, even if he isn't being paid), and there are costs associated with smoke production, but we will ignore these for now.

    Assuming we can cast the spell directly, Continual Flame is 50 gold and lasts forever.

    50/0.01= 5,000. After 5000 hours of illumination, the Continual Flame is more efficient. This is only 208.33 days, less than a year.

    If we must buy Everburning Torches at full market price (100gp), they will pay off after 100/0.01=10,000 hours, or 416.67 days


    In the long run, as long as we can go for roughly a year or more without needing to replace them (such as from theft or dispelling), continual flames will be more efficient. Additionally, the costs associated with their replacement and storage are much lower, and they do not consume the air. This makes magic fire much more efficient for permanent underground structures.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2013-05-19 at 01:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Tunnel Sizes

    If the tunnels were made by dwarves, for dwarves, 6 feet would be reasonable, but if there are any human sized characters, 6 feet would be way too short, the average man is about 5'10" in the USA, with shoes and a hat, he's already hitting his head. So about half your male human population wouldn't be able to walk through without bending over.

    If you're going by Medieval average heights, subtract about 6 inches or so, but 6 feet was still within the normal range of height.

    The width of the tunnels really depends on what the tunnels were used for. If it's old mines or an old dwarven city, you want the tunnels to be wide enough for a cart, preferably two to pass each other in each direction, because unlike an above ground road, one can't simply pull over and wait for the other to pass if two meet each other in the tunnel.

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    Default Re: Tunnel Sizes

    They might have a small tunnel as an entrance making it easy to defend, would probably still be more logical to have a narrow bridge over a natural chasm since it would make it harder to block. The chasm would also be useful to provide extra air circulation.

    Even short surface tunnels would still be at least 2 people across and 6 feet high. The main problem with having a deeper tunnel be this small is your going to run out of air if you try to build a city with interconnecting tunnels.

    Plus when you hit territory where canarys would be useful it's going to be at lethal levels for a much greater spread than if you had a wide area for the poisonous or explosive gas to disperse in. In your smaller tunnels you would probably kill everyone quite easily simply by cooking food.

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    Default Re: Tunnel Sizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    Each torch lasts for one hour, and is 1 copper = 0.01 gold.
    Torches are essentially free if you live near a forest, have a tar pit in your caverns, and have sufficient peasants to do your bidding.

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    Default Re: Tunnel Sizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Torches are essentially free if you live near a forest, have a tar pit in your caverns, and have sufficient peasants to do your bidding.
    None of those things are free. At best, you can craft torches for 1/3 cost, meaning that it's instead ~600-1200 days before magic fire becomes more efficient.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2013-05-19 at 08:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Tunnel Sizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    Well, what else are you going to do with any rubies you accidentally come across whilst you're digging a home? You could sell them for comparatively little (for an entire economy), or permanent, risk-free lighting.
    You expect to come across rubies by random chance?

    There's a reason specific mines exist for them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    In the long run, as long as we can go for roughly a year or more without needing to replace them (such as from theft or dispelling), continual flames will be more efficient. Additionally, the costs associated with their replacement and storage are much lower, and they do not consume the air. This makes magic fire much more efficient for permanent underground structures.
    The alternative isn't regular torches, it's no torches at all. And no torches is by far the more cost-efficient choice for races with darkvision (which includes every underground race I can think of).

    All you've shown is that when the choice comes to be made between torches and Continual Flames, the latter is more efficient. And one just needs to look at how widely-used LED/florescent lightbulbs are(n't) in real life to see that people will still use the option that's less costly in the short term, even over long periods of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewolf View Post
    They might have a small tunnel as an entrance making it easy to defend, would probably still be more logical to have a narrow bridge over a natural chasm since it would make it harder to block. The chasm would also be useful to provide extra air circulation.
    That isn't exactly a something that's controllable, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewolf View Post
    Even short surface tunnels would still be at least 2 people across and 6 feet high. The main problem with having a deeper tunnel be this small is your going to run out of air if you try to build a city with interconnecting tunnels.
    The size of the tunnel won't make air flow less, because the effort that's saved would be used in making more tunnels. In fact, that might be even better for airflow...

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewolf View Post
    Plus when you hit territory where canarys would be useful it's going to be at lethal levels for a much greater spread than if you had a wide area for the poisonous or explosive gas to disperse in.
    That never stopped real-life coal miners from digging tunnels this small.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewolf View Post
    In your smaller tunnels you would probably kill everyone quite easily simply by cooking food.
    Forges and Hearths need more ventilation than just tunnels, anyways. They'd probably have direct shafts to the surface.
    Last edited by Geordnet; 2013-05-19 at 09:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Tunnel Sizes

    Quote Originally Posted by Geordnet View Post
    The alternative isn't regular torches, it's no torches at all. And no torches is by far the more cost-efficient choice for races with darkvision (which includes every underground race I can think of).
    Yes. If you completely ignore psychology, the fact that even in my plan, which did not account for Continual Flames (or at least assumed no wizards) I had specific shafts for air for the fire/smoke removal, and the fact that with multiple lights, you can probably see farther than the range of darkvision, and with more detail due to it not being black and white - an important thing given the size you insist on making these, as walking past someone going the other way is going to require a fair amount of maneuvering, especially if you're carrying stuff and/or pushing a mine cart - then congratulations. Darkvision is a better option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geordnet View Post
    Forges and Hearths need more ventilation than just tunnels, anyways. They'd probably have direct shafts to the surface.
    Yes, because digging up through the other levels of the city isn't going to cause weak points in the buildings at all. Oh no, the entire city is completely controlled by a council, all of whom are capable architects, and determine where new rooms/buildings can be made, which is impossible without their permission.

    And of course, all of them have eidetic memories, so that they can perfectly recall the plans for every level of this place and quickly determine where such new construction won't cause problems.
    Last edited by C'nor; 2013-05-19 at 09:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Tunnel Sizes

    Quote Originally Posted by C'nor View Post
    Yes. If you completely ignore psychology, the fact that even in my plan, which did not account for Continual Flames (or at least assumed no wizards) I had specific shafts for air for the fire/smoke removal, and the fact that with multiple lights, you can probably see farther than the range of darkvision, and with more detail due to it not being black and white - an important thing given the size you insist on making these, as walking past someone going the other way is going to require a fair amount of maneuvering, especially if you're carrying stuff and/or pushing a mine cart - then congratulations. Darkvision is a better option.
    Ventilation shafts take even more work than the Continual Flames do, psychology would state that nobody spends that much extra effort when they don't have to, and why are you walking down a cart tunnel in a tightly-controlled mining operation?

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