Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Dragon Disciple (3.5 base class; replaces Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept)

    Dragon Disciple


    HD: d8
    Class Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Arcane), Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magical Device
    Skill Points at First Level: (4+Int) x4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+Int

    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Dragon Special Invocations Known Breath Weapon Power
    1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Draconic Blood, Claws, Scales, Breath Weapon 1d6
    2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Dragonkin, Invocations 1 (Least) 1d6
    3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Energy Resistance 10 2 2d6
    4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Draconic Resolve, Bonus Feat 3 3d6
    5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Bite 3 3d6
    6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Energy Resistance 20 4 (Lesser) 4d6
    7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Powerful Build 5 5d6
    8th +6/1 +6 +2 +6 Bonus Feat 6 6d6
    9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Energy Immunity 6 6d6
    10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Wings, Morph 7 7d6
    11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Range Increase 8 (Greater) 8d6
    12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Bonus Feat, Spell Resistance 9 9d6
    13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Blindsense 9 9d6
    14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Size Increase 10 10d6
    15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Tail 11 11d6
    16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Bonus Feat 12 (Dark) 12d6
    17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Draconic Sorcery (1st level sorcerer) 12 12d6
    18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Draconic Sorcery (2nd level sorcerer) 13 13d6
    19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Draconic Sorcery (3rd level sorcerer) 14 14d6
    20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 Draconic Apotheosis, Draconic Sorcery (4th level sorcerer), Bonus Feat 15 15d6

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Dragon Disciples are proficient with simple weapons and with light armor. You may use your invocations while wearing light armor without suffering from any arcane spell failure chance.

    Draconic Blood— You have started down a glorious road, one ending in ascension to the ranks of true dragons. But for now, your power manifests in subtler ways. Pick one type of dragon from the list below and gain the Dragonblooded subtype.

    Dragon Breath Weapon
    Black 30-foot line of acid
    Blue 30-foot line of electricity
    Brass 30-foot line of fire
    Bronze 30-foot line of electricity
    Copper 30-foot line of acid
    Gold 15-foot cone of fire
    Green 15-foot cone of acid
    Red 15-foot cone of fire
    Silver 15-foot cone of cold
    White 15-foot cone of cold

    Claws (Ex)— You grow two claws as primary natural weapons, dealing 1d6 damage. The listed damage is for a medium-sized character.

    Scales (Ex)— Scales start to form across your body. You gain a natural armor bonus equal to your Constitution modifier.

    Breath Weapon (Su)— You gain a breath weapon, like a true dragon's. The shape and damage type of your breath weapon depend on your Draconic Blood. A successful Reflex save halves the damage dealt; the save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 your dragon disciple level + your Construction modifier.

    You may use one of two versions of a breath weapon. You may do damage as indicated on the table above with no recharge time. Alternately, you may deal 1d6 damage/level, but once you use this option you must wait 1d4 rounds before you can use either form of your breath weapon again.

    Invocations— Beginning at 2nd level, you gain access to a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and other abilities known as draconic invocations, which allow you to focus the draconic energy that suffuses your soul. You may use any invocation you know at will.

    Your invocations are spell-like abilities; using an invocation is therefore a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. To avoid provoking such attacks, you can use an invocation defensively by making a successful Concentration check. An invocation can be disrupted, just as a spell can be ruined during casting. If you are hit by an attack while invoking, you are entitled to a Concentration check to successfully use the invocation, just as a spellcaster would be Your invocations are subject to spell resistance unless an invocation's description specifically states otherwise. Your caster level with your invocations is equal to your class level. You can dismiss any invocation as a standard action, just as a wizard can dismiss a spell.

    If an invocation allows a saving throw, its DC is 10 + the equivalent spell level + your Charisma modifier. Since spell-like abilities are not spells, you cannot benefit from the Spell Focus feat or from draconic feats that let you convert or spend an arcane spell slot to produce some other effect. You can, however, benefit from the Ability Focus feat (MM 303), as well as from feats that emulate metamagic effects for spell-like abilities.

    The four grades of draconic invocations, in order of their relative power, are least, lesser, greater, and dark. At second level, you gain knowledge of one least invocation, gaining access to more invocations and higher grades as you attains levels. At any level when you learn a new invocation, you can also replace an invocation you already know with another invocation of the same or lower grade. See Draconic Invocations, below, for a list of available invocations.

    Unlike other spell-like abilities, draconic invocations are subject to arcane spell failure chance as described under Weapon and Armor Proficiency, above.

    Energy Resistance (Ex)— At 3rd level, you gain resistance 10 to the energy type used by your breath weapon. At 6th level, this improves to resistance 20.

    Draconic Resolve (Ex)— At 4th level, you gain immunity to paralysis and sleep effects. You also become immune to the frightful presence of dragons.

    Bonus Feat— At 4th level, and every subsequent 4th level, you gain a bonus feat. These bonus feats must be drawn from the lists of Draconic or Metabreath feats, although a DM might also allow thematically appropriate feats that don’t have those exact descriptors.

    Bite (Ex)— At 5th level, you grow a mouthful of fangs, gaining a secondary bite attack dealing 1d8 damage. The listed damage is for a medium-sized character.

    Powerful Build (Ex)— At 6th level, you start to grow, generally gaining around a foot of height and 50-100 pounds of muscle. This grants you the benefits of the Powerful Build ability— Whenever you are subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), you are treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to you. In addition, you are considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect you. You may use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, your space and reach remain those of a creature of your actual size. The benefits of ability with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

    In addition, the damage dealt by your claws and bites increases to 1d8 for your claws and 2d6 for your bite.

    Energy Immunity (Ex)— At 9th level, you gain immunity to the energy type used by your breath weapon.

    Wings (Ex)— At 10th level, you grow huge, dragon-like wings. You gain a 60 foot fly speed with average maneuverability. In addition, like a true dragon, you can cover great distances with impressive speed. You may cover 9 miles in an hour of normal flight, or 18 miles if hustling. In a single day, you may travel 72 miles. In addition, when hustling, you only need to check for nonlethal damage every 2 hours.

    Morph (Su)— At 10th level, you have begun to unlock the secrets of a true dragon’s shapechanging ability. You may freely shift between your modified draconic form, with claws, scales, wings, and fangs, and your original form, as you would have looked before taking any levels in this class. You lose the natural armor bonus from your scales, access to the natural weapons granted by this class, and your wings when doing so. If killed or knocked out, you do not change form.

    Range Increase— At 11th level, the area of your breath weapon increases, to a 30ft cone or 60ft line.

    Spell Resistance (Ex)— At 12th level, you gain Spell Resistance equal to your Dragon Disciple level + 10. Unlike other forms of spell resistance, you may choose to allow any spell you wish to bypass your resistance.

    Blindsense (Ex)— At 13th level, you gain blindsense, out to a range of 60 feet.

    Size Increase (Ex)— At 14th level, your size increases by one category, with all the associated benefits as shown on the table for increasing monster size. In addition, your fly speed improves to 100 feet, with an overland speed of 15 miles per hour (24 when hustling) and 120 miles per day. This ability replaces Powerful Build.

    Old Size New Size Str Dex Con Natural Armor AC/Attack
    Small Medium +4 -2 +2 Same -1
    Medium Large +8 -2 +4 +2 -1
    Large Huge +8 -2 +4 +3 -1

    Old Damage New Damage
    1d4 1d6
    1d6 1d8
    1d8 2d6
    1d10 2d8
    2d6 3d6
    2d8 3d8

    Tail (Ex)— At 15th level, you grow a long, muscular tail, granting you a secondary slam attack dealing 2d6 + 1 ½ times your strength modifier damage.

    Draconic Sorcery— As you get closer and closer to a true dragon, you begin to feel the stirrings of sorcerery in your blood. At 17th level, you gain the ability to cast spells as a first-level sorcerer. At each subsequent level, you gain one effective sorcerer levels, so an 18th level Dragon Disciple casts spells as a 2nd-level sorcerer, a 19th level Dragon Disciple casts spells as a 3rd level sorcerer, and so on.

    You gain spells per day and spells known as a sorcerer of the level indicated, but your caster level is equal to one-half your Dragon Disciple level.

    Dragon Apotheosis(Ex)— By 20th level, you have done everything you can to emulate the dragons you worship. You have tapped their power, their magic, their vigor— and now, like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly, you shed your frail mortal shell and spread your mighty wings.

    For all purposes, you are indistinguishable from a dragon of the type you selected at level 1. Your type changes to Dragon. You hit die improves to a d12, your BAB to full, and your Reflex save to good. Your size increases once again, with all the associated benefits, and your fly speed improves to 150 feet, with an overland speed of 20 miles per hour (40 when hustling) and 160 miles per day.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2017-01-04 at 03:45 PM.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

    Grod's Guide to Greatness
    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dragon Disciple (3.5 base class; replaces Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept)

    Draconic Invocations

    Least Invocations
    • Aquatic Adaptation: Breathe and use breath weapon underwater; gain swim speed.
    • Beguiling Influence: Gain bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.
    • Breath of the Night: Create a fog cloud as the spell.
    • Darkness: Create darkness as the spell.
    • Deafening Roar: Cone of sound deafens creatures.
    • Draconic Knowledge: Gain bonus on Knowledge and Spellcraft checks.
    • Endure Exposure: Use endure elements as the spell; target gains immunity to your breath weapon.
    • Elemental Breath: Change the damage type of your breath weapon
    • Magic Insight: Detect magical auras; identify magic items.
    • Scalding Gust: Use gust of wind as the spell; any creature in area takes fire damage equal to your level.
    • See the Unseen: Gain darkvision; gain see invisibility as the spell.
    • Sickening Breath: Breath weapon sickens creatures


    Lesser Invocations
    • Charm: Cause a single creature to regard you as a friend.
    • Draconic Aura: Project an aura granting you and your allies a special benefit.
    • Energy Resistance: Gain resistance 10 to acid, cold, electricity, fi re, or sonic damage.
    • Enthralling Voice: Make nearby creatures fascinated.
    • Frightful Presence: Make nearby creatures shaken.
    • Humanoid Shape: Take the form of any humanoid creature.
    • Shape Breath: Change the area of your breath weapon
    • Slow Breath: Breath weapon slows creatures
    • Touch of Vitality: Touch heals wounds
    • Voracious Dispelling: Use dispel magic as the spell, dealing damage to creatures whose effects are dispelled.
    • Walk Unseen: Use invisibility (self only) as the spell.
    • Weakening Breath: Breath weapon imposes –6 penalty to Strength


    Greater Invocations
    • Aura of Energy: Aura deals energy damage to creatures that strike you.
    • Baleful Geas: A single creature becomes your servant, but slowly sickens and dies.
    • Chilling Fog: Create solid fog that deals cold damage.
    • Deep Breath: Take a move action to increase the power of your breath weapon.
    • Devour Magic: Use targeted greater dispel magic with a touch and gain temporary hit points based on the level of spells successfully dispelled.
    • Draconic Toughness: Gain temporary hit points equal to your level.
    • Enduring Breath: Breath weapon deals damage over 2 rounds
    • Sleep Breath: Breath weapon puts weak creatures to sleep
    • Terrifying Roar: Use fear as the spell; creatures shaken by effect can’t attack you.
    • Thunder Breath: Breath weapon deals sonic damage
    • Touch of Panacea: Touch heals harmful conditions
    • Wingstorm: Create powerful gusts of wind with your invocation:granted wings.


    Dark Invocations
    • Discorporating Breath of Bahamut: Breath weapon deals double damage, disintegrates
    • Energy Immunity: Gain immunity to acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage.
    • Fivefold Breath of Tiamat: Breathe five different breath weapons simultaneously
    • Force Breath: Breath weapon deals force damage
    • Instill Vulnerability: Make target creature vulnerable to chosen energy type.
    • Paralyzing Breath: Breath weapon paralyzes creatures for 1 round
    • Perilous Veil: Use veil as the spell; anyone succeeding on Will save to negate the illusion takes damage.


    New/Revised Invocations
    Spoiler
    Show

    Aura of Energy
    Greater, 6th

    You may activate this invocation as a swift action, enveloping yourself in flame. At the start of each of your turns, all adjacent creatures take 1 damage of the same type as your breath weapon per Dragon Disciple level. In addition, any creature striking you in melee takes 1 damage of the same type as your breath weapon per Dragon Disciple level

    Deep Breath
    Greater, 5th

    If you take a move action to visibly inhale, the next time you use your breath weapon you deal and extra 4 dice of damage, and increase the DC of the Reflex save by 4.

    Discorporating Breath of Bahamut
    Dark, 8th

    Your breath weapon loses its normal energy type and becomes a blue-white line of pure energy. This breath effect doubles the number of dice of damage normally dealt by your breath weapon (for example, from 7d6 to 14d6), and deals untyped damage, as a disintegrate spell. In addition, any creature that is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by the breath weapon is disintegrated (as the disintegrate spell). There is no save to reduce this damage, and neither Evasion nor Improved Evasion apply. Your breath deals full damage to objects when used this way, and bypasses hardness. Objects are also disintegrated if they are reduced to 0 or fewer points of health.

    Draconic Aura
    Lesser, 3rd

    Pick three auras from the following list. These auras affect all allies within 30 feet. The bonus is equal to one-fifth your class level, rounded down. You may begin projecting an aura as a swift action. The aura remains in effect until you dismiss it (a free action), you are rendered unconscious or dead, or you activate another draconic aura in its place. Unlike other invocations, you may select this invocation more than once, learning three new auras each time.
    • Energy Shield: Any creature striking you or your ally with a natural attack or a non-reach melee weapon is dealt 2 points of energy damage for each point of your aura bonus. The energy type is that of your breath weapon.
    • Energy: This aura grants a bonus on the save DC equal to your aura bonus for effects of the same type as your breath weapon. The bonus applies to spells, powers, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, or any other ability that either has the appropriate descriptor or deals damage of the chosen type.
    • Insight: This aura grants a bonus on Decipher Script, Knowledge, and Spellcraft checks equal to your aura bonus.
    • Power: All weapon damage rolls deal bonus damage equal to twice your aura bonus. This damage is of the same type as your breath weapon.
    • Presence: This aura grants you a bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks equal to your aura bonus.
    • Resistance: This aura grants resistance to the energy type of your breath weapon equal to 5 × your bonus..
    • Resolve: This aura grants a bonus on Concentration checks and on saves against fear, paralysis, and sleep effects equal to your aura bonus.
    • Senses: This aura grants a bonus on Listen checks, Spot checks, and initiative checks equal to your aura bonus.
    • Stamina: This aura grants you a bonus on Constitution checks (but not Constitution-based skill checks) and Fortitude saves equal to your aura bonus.
    • Swiftness: This aura grants a bonus on Climb, Jump, and Swim checks equal to your aura bonus. It also increases climb, fly, and swim speeds by 5 × your bonus. (The aura doesn’t grant you a fl y or swim speed if you don’t already have one.)
    • Toughness: This aura grants damage reduction 1/— for each point of your bonus.
    • Vigor: This aura grants fast healing 1 for each point of your aura bonus, but only affects characters at or below one-half their full normal hit points.


    Elemental Breath
    Least, 2nd

    You may change the damage type of your breath weapon to any of the following elements: acid, cold, fire, or lightning. Its area does not change.

    Enduring Breath
    Greater, 5th

    Your breath weapon deals damage over 2 consecutive rounds. When you use Enduring Breath, the target takes the normal amount of damage from your breath weapon. In the next round, the same target takes half that amount of damage. For example, a creature that takes 22 points of damage from your breath weapon’s initial use takes 11 more points of damage in the next round. A creature that takes no damage from the initial use (whether because of evasion, resistance, immunity, or any other reason) also takes no damage in the next round. No save is allowed against this damage.

    Fivefold Breath of Tiamat
    Greater, 8th

    As a full-round action, you create five different breath weapons simultaneously: a cone of acid, a cone of cold, a cone of fire, a line of acid, and a line of electricity. Each breath weapon deals 1d6 damage per two levels, and each one allows a Reflex save to halve the damage dealt.

    Force Breath
    Dark, 7th

    Your breath weapon becomes a force effect. Its damage has no energy type, but it affects incorporeal creatures normally.

    Paralyzing Breath
    Dark, 7th

    Rather than dealing damage, your breath weapon paralyzes all creatures in its area for 2d4 rounds. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect.

    Shaped Breath
    Lesser, 3rd

    You may cause your breath weapon to take any of the following shapes: a cylinder (10-foot radius, 30 feet high), a 15-foot cone, a 30 foot line, or a 20ft radius burst.

    Alternately, you may can choose to leave up to 4 squares within the area of your breath weapon unaffected by the breath weapon. These unaffected squares need not be adjacent
    to one another.

    Sickening Breath
    Least, 2nd

    Rather than dealing damage, your breath weapon sickens all creatures in its area for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution modifier. A successful Fortitude save reduces the duration to 1 round.

    Sleep Breath
    Greater, 5th

    Rather than dealing damage, your breath weapon puts all living creatures in its area to sleep for 1 round. Any creature that makes a successful Will save is instead exhausted for 1 round.

    Slow Breath
    Lesser, 3rd

    Rather than dealing damage, your breath weapon slows all creatures in its area for 2 rounds. A successful Fortitude save reduces the duration to 1 round. A slowed creature can take a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor can it take full-round actions). Additionally, it takes a –1 penalty to its Armor Class and on its attack rolls and Refl ex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.

    Multiple uses of this breath effect on the same creature don’t stack; use only the longer duration. Slow Breath suppresses any haste effect on creatures in its area for the duration of the slow effect.

    Thunder Breath
    Greater, 4th

    Your breath weapon deals sonic damage. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage. This replaces the normal Reflex save.

    Touch of Panacea
    Greater, 5th

    Requires: Touch of Vitality
    You can choose to spend some of the healing bestowed by your touch of vitality to remove other harmful conditions affecting the target.
    • For every 5 points of your healing ability you expend, you can cure 1 point of ability damage or remove the dazed, fatigued, or sickened condition from one individual.
    • For every 10 points of your healing ability you expend, you can remove the exhausted, nauseated, poisoned, or stunned condition from one individual.
    • For every 20 points of your healing ability you expend, you can remove a negative level or the blinded, deafened, or diseased condition from one individual.


    You can remove a condition (or more than one condition) and heal damage with the same touch, so long as you expend the required number of points. For example, if you wanted to heal 12 points of damage and remove the blinded and exhausted conditions from a target, you would have to expend 42 points (12 hit points restored plus 20 points for blinded plus 10 points for exhausted).

    Touch of Vitality
    Lesser, 3rd

    You can heal the wounds of living creatures (your own or those of others) by touch. Each day you can heal a number of points of damage equal to twice your class level × your Charisma bonus. For example, a 7th-level dragon disciple with a Charisma score of 14 (+2 bonus) can heal 28 points of damage. You can choose to divide your healing among multiple recipients, and you don't have to use it all at once. Using your touch of vitality is a swift action. It has no effect on undead.

    Weakening Breath
    Lesser, 3rd

    Rather than dealing damage, your breath weapon imposes a –6 penalty to the Strength scores of all creatures in the area for 4 rounds. A successful Fortitude save reduces the duration to 2 rounds.

    Wingstorm
    Greater, 6th

    Flapping your wings, you create a storm of winds around you, pushing away and knocking down nearby creatures. All creatures within 20 feet of you are pushed away until they are at least 25 feet away and then knocked prone. A successful Fortitude save reduces the knockback distance to 10 feet and prevents the creature from being knocked prone; creatures more than one size category larger than you are immune. If an affected creature encounters an obstacle (such as a wall or another creature), both it and the obstacle each take 2d6 points of damage (as if they had fallen 20 feet).
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2013-05-03 at 01:10 PM.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

    Grod's Guide to Greatness
    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2012

    Default Re: Dragon Disciple (3.5 base class; replaces Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept)

    So... Basically a Gestalt of the Dragonfire Adept, Dragon Shaman, and Dragon Disciple with a good BAB, all good saves, and d12 hit die? What's your point of balance?

    Also, I don't think Apoptosis is the word you're looking for... I think you mean Apotheosis. Apoptosis cell death encoded in DNA.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dragon Disciple (3.5 base class; replaces Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept)

    Quote Originally Posted by genericwit View Post
    So... Basically a Gestalt of the Dragonfire Adept, Dragon Shaman, and Dragon Disciple with a good BAB, all good saves, and d12 hit die? What's your point of balance?

    Also, I don't think Apoptosis is the word you're looking for... I think you mean Apotheosis. Apoptosis cell death encoded in DNA.
    My point of battle is the Tome of Battle. I'm not a hundred percent sure on the chassis-- I figured I'd start big, with what dragon hit die grant you, and cut if I needed to.

    I would like to note that its breath weapon isn't as necessarily as good as the DFA's, since it has a 1d4 round cooldown. Which does mean metabreath feats, but also means that you're probably not going to be able to use it more than once or twice per fight.

    And I know what Apoptosis is-- I'm not ignorant, just illiterate . Thanks for catching that.

    ("Dragon Apoptosis" could be a funny spell, though.)
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2013-05-04 at 05:45 PM.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

    Grod's Guide to Greatness
    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Theoboldi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dragon Disciple (3.5 base class; replaces Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept)

    I don't have any time to review the full thing right now, but I feel that the spellcasting the class gets is a bit too sudden and tacked on. Suddenly gaining 7 levels of spellcasting in the last 5 levels is a very abrupt increase in power, the likes of which I've only seen in the truenamer class before. (Gate at-will, and all that.)
    Sure, its only 3rd level spells, but that still gives you some fairly powerful buff and utility spells.
    I'd remove the spellcasting completly since the class already gets invocations, which are more than enough on the strong melee-chasis that this class already has with its natural weapons, CON to AC and even powerful build.
    Last edited by Theoboldi; 2013-05-04 at 06:46 PM.
    Always look for white text. Always.
    That's how you do it! Have a cookie!
    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    You don't win people over by beating them with facts until they surrender; at best all you've got is a conversion under duress, and at worst you've actively made an enemy of your position.

    You don't convince by proving someone wrong. You convince by showing them a better way to be right. The difference may seem subtle or semantic, but I assure you it matters a lot.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dragon Disciple (3.5 base class; replaces Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept)

    Yeah. I was running out of interesting things to grant. I was looking at the monster manual, and I though "Well, they've got the breath weapon, the wings, the natural weapons, the immunities, the spell resistance... what's left?" And all I saw was casting.

    Would it be better if it was 1 level/level? Or if scrapped altogether, what would you suggest go in its place?

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

    Grod's Guide to Greatness
    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Theoboldi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dragon Disciple (3.5 base class; replaces Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept)

    Honestly, I have no idea. Perhaps the same spell-like abilities your dragon type gets? A bit bland and weak, perhaps, but right now I can't think of anything better.
    Last edited by Theoboldi; 2013-05-04 at 06:55 PM.
    Always look for white text. Always.
    That's how you do it! Have a cookie!
    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    You don't win people over by beating them with facts until they surrender; at best all you've got is a conversion under duress, and at worst you've actively made an enemy of your position.

    You don't convince by proving someone wrong. You convince by showing them a better way to be right. The difference may seem subtle or semantic, but I assure you it matters a lot.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2012

    Default Re: Dragon Disciple (3.5 base class; replaces Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept)

    Yeah, I don't think the breath weapon is particularly unbalanced. I'd consider completely dropping invocations or limiting them to only breath shape/effect invocations and lowering the amount of invocations known. Then, I'd do away with the casting at the last few levels and instead give them the ability to gain a number of spells as spell-like abilities, spread out over all 20 levels; to balance this, I'd say it would be a good idea to start these abilities at once per day and allow increasing uses for lower-level spells as stronger ones are gained, perhaps even letting them have one or two <2 level spells usable at will. I'd restrict the possible spells know to either those mimicked by dfa invocations or spell like abilities possesses by true dragons. I feel like this is closer to emulating a dragon. Alternatively, you could keep invocations as they are and add only a few spell like abilities, say one first level, one third, one fifth, and one seventh, spread out over 20 levels. As new ones are gained, you could add one use to each spell like ability per day and once the seventh is gained allow the first to be used at will.

    Those are some changes I would make, anyway. I'm typing from my phone so I'm sorry if its kind of rambley.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dragon Disciple (3.5 base class; replaces Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept)

    Quote Originally Posted by genericwit View Post
    ...I'd restrict the possible spells know to either those mimicked by dfa invocations or spell like abilities possesses by true dragons
    Why? That seems like a really roundabout way of achieving what's already there, and I don't see how it improves the elegance or balance of the class at all. I already have draconic spell-like abilities; they're called invocations.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

    Grod's Guide to Greatness
    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2012

    Default Re: Dragon Disciple (3.5 base class; replaces Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Why? That seems like a really roundabout way of achieving what's already there, and I don't see how it improves the elegance or balance of the class at all. I already have draconic spell-like abilities; they're called invocations.
    Well, I think tacking on 4 levels of sorcerer on the end is rather inelegant, personally. If you were to keep the invocations, which I can see a rationale for, and if you were to give them the four spell-like abilities [such that at level 2O, or whenever you saw fit to add the 7th level spell, they'd have one 1st level spell like ability at will, one 3rd 3/day, one 5th 2/day, and one 7th 1/day], they get more raw power in terms of spell casting than a sorcerer with less versatility [spells known]. The reason for restricting the spell list, and if you keep invocations it would make sense to use spell like abilities of dragons, is to make them more closely emulate dragons. Dragons typically have a number of spell like abilities, but they are more fixed. Besides, if you were to do it this way, it could include the spell-like abilities of dragons from splatbooks, which really does give you a fairly wide variety of cool spells, but with restrictions; for instance, mirage arcana would be a go, because I think there's a dragon that has that as a spell like ability, but summon monster wouldn't [just doesn't seem very draconic, to me].

    But hey, it's your class, these are just my honest opinions, and how I'd construct it.

    Edit: The addition of spells mimicking DFA invocations is a prescription/suggestion for if you were to reduce invocations to breath only invocations [giving them say 5-6 breath effect/shape invocations]. Then you could, say, give them a spell like ability at every level usable 1/day each, of a level equal to the highest level spell a sorcerer of their level could cast. The DFA thing would just expand the list beyond those already used by dragon spell-like abilities. On second thought, though, I don't think it would really be necessary to just restrict it to either of those, but I think there should be a limited number of available spells, i.e. those that seem to have more dragon like flavor, which could certainly include versatile and powerful spells like polymorph or even timestop. There are just some spells that I couldn't see being draconic, like the bite of the were line, for instance.
    Last edited by genericwit; 2013-05-05 at 08:12 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    anacalgion's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dragon Disciple (3.5 base class; replaces Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept)

    Just a thought - what if you allowed them to add a spell to their invocation list every few levels? I can't see a few low level spells at will being unbalancing and it gives the class a lot more to play around with.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dragon Disciple (3.5 base class; replaces Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept)

    Quote Originally Posted by anacalgion View Post
    Just a thought - what if you allowed them to add a spell to their invocation list every few levels? I can't see a few low level spells at will being unbalancing and it gives the class a lot more to play around with.
    Maybe? More invocation choices couldn't hurt, I suppose, especially a few more Dark options, but he's already got over 40 choices, of which only a quarter are breath effects. I'd worry about unforseen synergies with your choice of at-will spells.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

    Grod's Guide to Greatness
    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    anacalgion's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dragon Disciple (3.5 base class; replaces Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept)

    Yeah, it was just a thought. There's some stuff like scintillating scales that they'd really love, but probably don't need. It was just an idea for something flavorful that'd work in place of a few caster levels tacked on at the end. Maybe you could let them pick up a few spells as evocations at the end? I can't see first and second level spells being too broken at the 16-20 range, especially if you limit the selection. You could give them a list of choices, just to let them pick up a few neat tricks.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dragon Disciple (3.5 base class; replaces Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept)

    Looking back, I've dropped the HD, BAB and Reflex save, to make the chassis more reasonable, and boosted the caster level of those tacked-on sorcerer levels. I'm still not certain about them, but it does fit the "I am a dragon" theme, and I still haven't come up with anything better to fill out the last few levels, so... <shrug>

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

    Grod's Guide to Greatness
    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •