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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Welcome to the latest incarnation of the Class and Level Geekery thread! Here, we are discussing what the possible stats are for each of the six OOTS members. Below is an estimate of the characters' stats; this was first kept by Runolfr, Wrecan, and Chrismith. I will update this post as the discussion continues and as subsequent strips reveal more information about OOTS; RMS Oceanic will update the post with all the other characters.

    Please note that we all know that Rich isn't necessarily being careful about the rules. Funny always trumps rules. Thus, there will always be some dispute as to some of the stats as some jokes are used as evidence as abilities and other strips are used as evidence of funny.

    Please read the thread rules by Mark Hall.


    3E source books used for the comic:
    • Player's Handbook 1 and Dungeon Master's Guide 1
    • Book of Vile Darkness (certain monsters; Boost Spell Resistance feat)
    • Complete Adventurer (ninjas)
    • Complete Arcane (warlocks; Tsukiko's and Zz'dtri's spells)
    • Complete Warrior (hexblade)
    • Dungeonscape (Thog; the acid-breathing shark; note that The Giant co-wrote this book)
    • Expanded Psionics Handbook (blue; mindblade)
    • Fiend Folio (certain monsters)
    • Magic of Incarnum (mentioned by Redcloak's lackey)
    • Monster Manual (mentioned by Celia and Vaarsuvius)
    • Monster Manual 2 (certain monsters)
    • Oriental Adventures (other samurai class, and mentioned by Xykon)
    • Spell Compendium (numerous spells that aren't from the PHB1)
    • uncertain: Epic Level Handbook (a feat and spell from this book are mentioned, but most epic characters or spells in the comic don't follow the rules from this book)


    In which comic do the characters demonstrate having leveled?
    {table]Level||||||
    9|12|12|12|12|12|12
    10|124|125|124|124|124|124
    11|251|???|201|???|???|186
    12|???, 665|249|???|???|477|???
    13|485, 862|???|556|393|511|397
    14|886|???|859|647|???|627
    15| - |860| - |904|615|716[/table]


    Roy Greenhilt
    Lawful Good, Human male Fighter 14+ (to take a feat after resurrection)
    Str 24+ (Unmodified strength 20+) *)
    Int 14-17 (“very good"*, but V's Int is "higher"*)
    Wis 14+ (“very good"*)
    Cha 12+ (“decent*), modifier less than Elan's.
    Age: 29.
    Feats (13): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Horace Greenhilt's Mage Slayer, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Endurance (sleeps in armor without getting fatigued).
    Skills (60+): Intimidate, Ride 1,
    Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) 2+, Knowledge (Geography), Profession (Goatherd), Spellcraft (OOPC), Bluff 0, Sense Motive 0 (OOPC).
    Items: Magical armor, Bag of Tricks, club, +5 Greatsword, formal suit, oil of shillelagh, potion of delay poison, boots, bedroll, list of Xykon's spells, feats and magic items, Belt of Giant Strength, book, sextant.
    *

    Belkar Bitterleaf aka Ali S. Fakenamington (KS:US), aka the Belkster, aka Death's Li'l Helper
    Chaotic Evil, Halfling male Ranger 11+ / Barbarian (forum), total level 15 (deafened by Holy Word).
    Str 14-17 (jump exceeds movement, forum, and carrying capacity in SSDT).
    Int <10 (OOPC).
    Wis <10 (ability score penalty).
    Cha <10 (without any charisma).
    Age: 28+ (ranger for three years, over a year ago).
    Feats (11): Endurance, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting (all ranger bonus feats); Craft Disturbing Mental Image, Great Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack (prerequisite for Improved Sunder), Two-Weapon Pounce; no feats related to special attacks (SSDT).
    Skills (89): Balance 5+, Climb, Craft: Trapmaking, Handle Animal 0 (NCPB), Hide, Jump, Move Silently 2+, Profession: gourmet chef 4, Sense Motive 0, Speak language: halfling (racial), Spot 0, Survival 0, Use Magic Device (SSDT).
    Abilities: Halfling racial abilities, ranger and barbarian class abilities, animal companion: Mr. Scruffy, scent.
    Items: Unholy symbol, red chalk, cloak, Ring of Jumping +20, stilts, Sapphire guard disguise, quill, string, chef hat, Mama Bitterleaf's secret ingredient,
    bedroll, 3 small magical daggers, mimic (SSDT), wand of dispel clothing (SSDT), book: Dune, bucket and spade, bag of holding full of money. Either has dex 15+ or wears light or no armor (to use two-weapon pounce).

    Mr. Scruffy
    True Neutral (forum), Cat male, animal companion.
    Str 6 (animal companion).
    Dex 18 (animal companion).
    Con 10 (racial).
    Int 2 (racial).
    Wis 12 (racial).
    Cha 7 (racial).
    Age: 7 (WXP).
    Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
    Skills: Balance +10, Climb +6, Hide +16, Jump +10, Listen +3, Move Silently +8, Spot +3 (all racial skills).
    Abilities: Low-light vision, scent (both racial abilities); natural armor +4, link, share spells, evasion, devotion (all animal companion abilities); 3 tricks, including attack and come.
    Items: String.

    Durkon Thundershield
    Lawful Evil, Dwarf vampire male non-theistic (forum) Cleric 14 (based on spells cast in a day).
    Str 20-25 (can carry Vaarsuvius, can't carry Roy; +6 as vampire).
    Dex <14 (dex penalty, SSDT; +4 as vampire).
    Con n/a (undead).
    Int ~12 (no evidence; +2 as vampire).
    Wis 19-25 (required for 7th-level spells, and to lose his best 7th-level spell to Enervation; +2 as vampire).
    Cha <14 (low modifier; +4 as vampire).
    Age: 55+.
    Feats (5): Extend Spell, Extra Turning; Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes (all vampire bonus feats).
    Skills (31+): Knowledge: Religion (not maxed), Listen 0 (OOPC), Ride 0, Speak language: dwarf (racial) and giant (SSDT), Spot 0.
    Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities, vampire abilities.
    Items: Candles, bedroll, full plate armor, deck of cards, holy symbol, Amulet of Natural Armor, heirloom shield and warhammer, parcheesi board, spyglass, religious vestments, scroll of Sending, belt pouch, Kingdom of Blood papers, flask of liquor, 10,000+ gp of diamond dust, Staff of Obscure Spells, healing potions.
    Spells: Standard cleric list, plus domain spells as listed above, plus Bless Beer (WXP), Call Lightning (DCF), Cat's Grace, Control Winds, Cure Itchy Wounds, Heat Blisters of Eternal Pain, Heathen Smiting, Mass Death Ward with backdoor, Mass Resist Energy, Thor's Lightning, and Tumor. Might of Thor is assumed to be the standard cleric spell Righteous Might.
    Before becoming a vampire, Durkon was Lawful Good, had Con ~12 (racial), the ability Turn Undead, and the Good domain (required to cast Holy Smite).

    Elan
    Chaotic Good, Human male Bard 13 (required to get these spells at level-up) / Dashing Swordsman, total level 15 (same as Nale).
    Str <20 (can't carry Roy, and the same as Nale, forum).
    Dex 13-17 (required for Dodge, and to get a four on Move Silently).
    Con same as Nale.
    Int <10 (too low to cast cantrips, but higher than Thog.
    Wis <10 (not even a smidgen).
    Cha 22+ (required for 5th level spells at level 13, +2 from belt).
    Age: 22+ (WXP).
    Feats (6): Dodge, Mobility (both prerequisites for Spring Attack), Spring Attack, Still Spell.
    Skills (85+): Diplomacy, Hide, Listen (higher than Sir Francois, OOPC), Move Silently <3, Perform: sing 12+ (required for Inspire Greatness), Perform: string instruments 15+ (required for Song of Freedom), Perform: kazoo, Ride 2+, Spot 0, Tumble.
    Abilities: Bard class abilities, charismatic strike, dramatic instincts, glass damage immunity.
    Items: Magic rapier, Banjo, ceremonial meat costume (OOPC), Boots of Elvenkind, kazoo, jam, lantern, pingpong bat, roller skate, squirrel, yoyo, dashing outfit, "silver" +3 keen rapier, lute, Belt of Charisma +2, treasure chest, drawing, The Stick the Order was named after, evil sword (SSDT), castanets and sombrero (SSDT), no armor. Elan still has his old equipment (forum).
    Spells: Animate Rope, Disguise Self, Greater Dispel Magic, Lesser Confusion, Major Image, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mending, Neutralize Poison, Prestidigitation, Silent Image, Summon Plot Exposition, not Cure Critical Wounds, Identify, or Break Enchantment.

    Haley Starshine aka Mistress Nightingale, aka The Red Blur (OOPC), aka Dark Mistress Shadowgale
    Chaotic Good, Human female Rogue 15+ (required for Improved Precise Shot).
    Str 13-19 (high enough to drag the cart, but can't carry Roy).
    Dex 20-21 (modifier of +5, forum).
    Con 9+ (higher than Vaarsuvius).
    Int 12+ (received bonus languages).
    Cha 12-19 (with any charisma; and with maxed out Bluff, for Hide to be her best skill, her cha mod has to be less than her dex mod).
    Age: About 25 (forum; was 24 here, and that was over a year ago).
    Feats (9+): Dodge (SSDT), Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (prerequisite for IPS), Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, Rapid Shot.
    Skills (180+): Appraise, Bluff 18+ (maxed out), Disable Device, Forgery (OOPC), Hide 18+ (best skill), Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Religion low (forum), Open Lock 15, Ride 0, Search not maxed, Sense Motive 2+, Spellcraft, Spot 0, Tumble, Use Magic Device 7+, Use Rope 8.
    Abilities: Rogue class abilities; two special rogue abilities, both spent on a feat.
    Items: 8 Bags of Holding, rope, a lot of clothes, bedroll, +5 longbow of Icy Burst, Crystal's +4 blade, magic leather armor, dyed Boots of Speed (forum), at least 200,000 gp in cash, trowel, metal detector, 4+ quivers of green arrows including silver and cold iron, three potions (since Belkar took one), thief's tools, wands, bag of copper pieces (SSDT).

    Vaarsuvius
    True Neutral (forum), Elf ambiguously gendered Wizard: Evoker (DCF) 15 (required to cast Power Word Stun, and same as Z'zdtri).
    Str 5-9 (can carry Yukyuk, and strength penalty).
    Dex <12 (no real attack bonus on rays, forum).
    Con 8-12 (required to have enough HP to survive the fight against Xykon; also, lacks a decent con, forum; and lower than Haley).
    Int 23 (required to cast four 6th-level spells with a base int of 18 increased to 19 at level 12).
    Wis 10-11 (moderate, forum).
    Cha 6-9 (can return as a ghost, and without any charisma).
    Age: 131+ (WXP).
    Feats (11+): Alertness, Empower Spell, Extend Spell (SSDT), Maximize Spell (SSDT), Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), not Silent Spell (forum), not Still Spell.
    Skills (108+): Appraise +3 (from familiar), Concentrate, Craft: Alchemy, Decipher Script (SSDT), Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Religion not high (forum), Ride 0, Spot 0, Search 0, Speak Language: elf (racial), raven, not draconic (SSDT), Spellcraft, , Use Magic Device 2+.
    Abilities: Elf racial abilities, familiar: Blackwing, share spells with familiar, scry on familiar, barred schools: Conjuration and Necromancy (forum; also by elimination).
    Items: Headband of Intellect +4 (required to cast four 6th-level spells with a base int of 18 at level 11), Ring of Wizardry III or IV, two small gemstones, many scrolls and spellbooks, Finding Plot Holes for Dummies, twelve more books, jar of diamond dust, two potions (SSDT), apricot-scented face gel (SSDT), chalice (SSDT).
    Spells: Arcane Eye, Banishment, Bull's Strength, Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand, Bugsby's Clenched Fist, Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit, Bugsby's Flicking Finger, Bugsby's Grasping Hand, Chain Lightning, Charm Monster, Cone of Cold, Crushing Despair, Detect Magic, Dimensional Anchor, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Distant Inferno (OOPC), Dominate Person, Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, Expeditious Retreat, Explosive Runes, Feather Fall, Fireball, Fire Trap, Flamefinger (OOPC), Forcecage, Fly, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility (SSDT), Gust of Wind, Haste, Heroism, Hold Monster (SSDT), Hold Person, Hold Portal, Identify, Invisibility, discount Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Mass Bear's Endurance. Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Enlarge Person, Overland Flight, Owl's Wisdom, Passwall, Polymorph, Power Word Blind, Power Word Stun, Prestidigitation, Prismatic Spray, Protection from Arrows, Resilient Sphere (SSDT), Scorching Ray, See Invisibility, Sending, Silent Image, Sleep, Stinking Cloud (DCF), Stoneskin, Stone to Flesh, Suggestion, Summon Plot Hole (SWMU), True Seeing, Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying, Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger, Vampiric Touch, Veil, Wall of Fire, at least one sonic spell.

    Blackwing (Common name)
    Raven male, familiar.
    Str 1 (racial).
    Dex 15 (racial).
    Con 10 (racial).
    Int 13 (familiar).
    Wis 14 (racial).
    Cha 6 (racial).
    Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
    Skills: Listen +5, Spot +7 (racial skills), can use Vaarsuvius's skill ranks (familiar).
    Abilities: Flight, low-light vision (both racial abilities); natural armor +8, improved evasion, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with birds, spell resistance 18 (all familiar abilities).
    Items: Bauble, sombrero, fake beard and mustache, wand.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2013-09-22 at 05:13 PM.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Frequently Asked Questions

    Q: Which characters are included in this thread?
    (1) All members of the Order, Team Evil, and the Linear Guild.
    (2) Any frequently occuring character, as noted in the Character Appearances thread. Note that this includes Samantha: it was easier to be a common character back when the comic was shorter. We don't unlist characters just because they've died.
    (3) Family members of the main characters, as long as we have something to write about them.
    This means that Daigo and Kazumi would be next in line, but we don't have a lot of material on either character.

    Q: Which material is covered by this thread?
    All comics on the web and in print (including SSDT, Gygax magazine, and the Kickstarter bonus stories), as well as anything written about the comic by The Giant. However, not included are any one-panel joke comics, such as used for incentives, t-shirts, or the fundraiser.
    Note that even though the characters have stated they aren't sure whether this is the same continuity, certain items and abilities have been shown to carry over. We're listing all of it here for the sake of convenience, but any material from (e.g.) SSDT is clearly marked as such so that people can distinguish it from the main online comics.

    Q: Is a character's statement about another character considered evidence?
    Yes. We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or his own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.

    Q: If a character makes a special attack like grappling, and his victim does not make an attack of opportunity, can that be evidence of a feat like Improved Grapple?
    Yes, assuming the victim is armed, and otherwise capable of making AOOs. It is clear that the rules for attacks of opportunity are used in the comic, and there is no reason to assume that grappling/tripping/sundering is an exception.

    Q: What does "Core" mean?
    The three "Core" books in 3E D&D are the Player's Handbook 1 (PHB), Dungeon Master's Guide 1 (DMG), and Monster Manual 1 (MM). This is an official term defined by WOTC, who put the word "Core" in big letters on the cover of these three books. No other books are Core, and there is no such thing as "partially Core", "almost Core", or "semi-Core" - every book is either Core or non-Core. Note that both the OOTS comic and this thread contain numerous non-Core elements.

    Q: A character undertook this heinous/awesome/dutiful/impulsive/meh action. Does that mean they are now evil/good/lawful/chaotic/neutral?
    No. As seen in a thousand forum threads, people have different ideas about alignment, and what defines and changes them. The alignments posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their alignment, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which has an alignment restriction. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's action changes their alignment, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers.

    Q: A character undertook this brilliant/moronic/insightful/ignorant/inspiring/repulsive action. Does that mean they now have a high/low intelligence/wisdom/charisma score?
    No. Similar to the previous question, people have different ideas about what the mental ability scores represent and how much they influence a character's personality. The ability scores posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their scores, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which requires a minimum ability score. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's personality changes their ability scores, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers either.

    Q: How does Xykon cast Maximized Energy Drain in comic 652?
    We don't know for sure. The most popular theories involve the feat Improved Spell Capacity, the feat Sudden Maximize, or a Rod of Metamagic. Each theory has its pros and cons.

    Q: What magic item makes Xykon immune to fire damage in comic 653?
    We don't know for sure; there are multiple items within RAW that make their user immune to fire, available from level 14. Note that Xykon doesn't specify whether it's an amulet, ring, belt, or other kind of item.

    Q: If somebody doesn't say the name of a spell while casting it, does that mean he has the Silent Spell feat?
    Not necessarily. We know that Vaarsuvius doesn't have that feat, and yet V still occasionally casts spells while talking about something else.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2013-07-29 at 03:42 PM.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Team Evil

    Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
    Chaotic (forum) Evil, Human male lich, Sorcerer 21+
    Con n/a (undead).
    Int ~15 (no evidence, age and lichdom).
    Wis ~15 (no evidence, age and lichdom).
    Cha 28+ (casts seven 9th-level spells in one combat, SOD).
    Age: 111+ (WXP).
    Feats (13+): Maximize Spell, Still Spell, Epic Spellcasting, at least one craft feat.
    Skills (46+): Bluff, Concentration (required to cast while grappled), Spellcraft 24+, Knowledge: Arcana 24+ (required for Epic Spellcasting), Reverse Psychology 2+, Speak Language: Draconic (NCPB); +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
    Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, damage reduction (SOD), immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks (all lich abilities).
    Items: Soul gem (SOD), Serini's diary, Widescreen crystal ball, Teevo, crown that radiates evil, Dorukan's headband, unspecified item that gives fire immunity, Ring of Protection that gives deflection bonus.
    Spells: Animate Dead, Animate Dead Animal (SOD), Cloister, Cloudkill, Contingency, Energy Drain, Epic Mage Armor, Finger of Death, Ghostform, Greater Invisibility, Greater Teleport, Invisibility (SOD), Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Mass Hold Person, Meteor Swarm, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Overland Flight, Ray of Frost, Shatter, Soul Bind (SOD), Stoneskin, Superb Dispelling, Symbol of Insanity, Symbol of Pain, Teleport, Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage, unspecified summoning spell, unspecified fire spell, unspecified spell that enables travel to the Astral Plane.

    Redcloak, pseudonym (SOD)
    Lawful (required for Law domain) Evil (SOD), Goblin male, Cleric (SOD) 17 (can cast 9th spells).
    Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Wis 20+ (based on saving throw difficulty class).
    Cha 12+ (required to use Rebuke Undead four times per day).
    Age: 55+ (WXP), does not age physically (SOD).
    Feats (5+): Craft Wondrous Item (Xykon's phylactery in SOD), Extend Spell.
    Skills (36+): Diplomacy (SOD), Knowledge: Chemistry, Speak Language (Goblin) Does not speak Draconic (NCPB).
    Abilities: Goblin racial abilities, Rebuke Undead, Command Undead, Destruction domain (required to cast Disintegrate) and Law domain (required to cast Hold Monster, SOD).
    Items: The Crimson Mantle, backup unholy symbol, Book of Vile Darkness, Fiend Folio, Monster Manual II, eye patch, spyglass, Xykon's Phylactery, Arcane half of the Snarl Ritual, Ring of protection from level drain
    Spells: standard cleric list, plus domain spells as listed above, plus Unseal, Greater Obscure Object, Superior Resistance, Hardening

    Tsukiko (deceased)
    Neutral Evil, Human female, Wizard: Necromancer (forum) 3+ / Cleric 3+ (required for Mystic Theurge) / Mystic Theurge 6+, and two more levels of either Wizard or Mystic Theurge (required to cast 6th-level wizard spells).
    Int 16+ (required to cast Create Undead as a wizard).
    Wis 15+ (required to cast Flame Strike as a cleric).
    Feats (6+): Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Quicken Spell.
    Skills (42+): Knowledge: Arcana 6+, Knowledge: Religion 6+ (required for Mystic Theurge).
    Abilities: Rebuke Undead, two unknown domains, barred school (forum): Abjuration (by elimination).
    Items: Spellbook (wizard feature), unholy symbol (required to cast Flame Strike), Xykon plushie, Xykon portrait, various books and scrolls, quill.
    Spells: standard cleric list, plus wizard spells Cold Orb, Create Undead, Dominate Person, Electric Orb, Fire Orb, Fireball, Fly, Invisibility, Lesser Acid Orb, Lightning Bolt, Mind Fog, Shout, Teleport, Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell (forum).

    Monster In The Darkness
    Please see this thread for details.



    The Linear Guild

    Nale (Deceased)
    Lawful Evil, Human male, Fighter / Rogue 2+ (required for Evasion) / Sorcerer 8+ (required to cast Dimension Door); total level 15 (Hit by Holy Word).
    Str <19 (same as Elan, forum).
    Dex 13-17 (same as Elan).
    Con ?? (same as Elan).
    Int 13+ (For Combat Expertise).
    Cha 15+ (required to cast Sending).
    Age: 22+ (same as Elan).
    Skills: Bluff.
    Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm.
    Abilities: Rogue class abilities.
    Items: Longsword, Linear Guild Business Cards, wand of Enervation, Elixirs of Negative Energy protection.
    Spells: Charm Person, Dimension Door, Expeditious Retreat, Invisibility, Prestidigitation, Suggestion.

    Sabine
    Evil, Succubus female, Racial hit dice 6 / Level adjustment 6 / Rogue (NCPB) 3+ (at least as high as her personal rival Haley).
    Dex ~13 (no evidence, racial).
    Con ~13 (no evidence, racial).
    Int 9+ (higher than Thog, lower than Nale, forum).
    Wis ~14 (no evidence, racial).
    Cha ~26 (no evidence, racial).
    Age: 2000+ (NCPB).
    Abilities: Flight, change shape, energy drain, charm monster, detect good, detect thoughts, ethereal jaunt, suggestion, greater teleport: self plus 50 pounds of objects, summon demon, damage reduction 10 / cold iron or good, darkvision, electricity and poison immunity, acid cold and fire resistance, spell resistance 18, telepathy, tongues; plane shift 1/day (all racial abilities), rogue class abilities, doesn't grow tired.
    Items: Cellphone

    Zz'dtri (Deceased)
    Neutral Evil Drow male, Wizard: Transmuter (DCF) 15 (deafened by Holy Word).
    Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Int 17+ (required to cast Plane Shift).
    Cha ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Feats (9+): Lightning Reflexes, Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell (forum), Boost Spell Resistance, unspecified feat that increases Spell Resistance, Empower Spell.
    Skills: Speak Language: Drow Sign Language
    Abilities: Spell Resistance 28+ (racial, at least +4 from feats and an item); drow racial abilities; barred schools: Enchantment, Necromancy (by elimination).
    Items: Spellbook (wizard feature), unspecified item that boosts Spell Resistance.
    Spells: Baleful Polymorph, Break Enchantment, Dimension Door, Disguise Self, Flesh to Stone, Fly (3.0 version), Greater Dispel Magic, Gust of Wind, Locate Object, Magic Circle Against Evil, Phantasmal Killer, Planar Binding, Plane Shift, Protection from Energy, Scrying, Shield, Teleport, Vitriolic Sphere, Wall of Ice, unspecified lightning spell.

    Qarr
    Lawful Evil, Imp male, Sorcerer 8-10 (required to cast Charm Monster, and to get only two Scorching Rays).
    Dex ~17 (no evidence, racial).
    Int 12+ (familiar, based on Zz'dtri's level).
    Wis ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Cha 14+ (required to cast Charm Monster).
    Feats (5+): Dodge, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
    Abilities: Flight, poison, detect good, detect magic, invisibility: self, suggestion 1/day, commune 1/week, alternate form, damage reduction 5/good or silver, darkvision, fast healing, poison immunity, fire resistance; greater teleport: self plus 50 pounds of objects, plane shift, summon devil (all racial abilities);
    Spells: Charm Monster, Lesser Telepathic Bond or Telepathic Bond, Lightning Bolt, Scorching Ray, Extraplanar Phone Connection.


    Former members
    Spoiler
    Show
    Thog
    Non-lawful (required for rage) Evil, Half-Orc male, Fighter 2 / Barbarian 9+ (required to have 3 attacks a round).
    Str 14+ (his highest ability score).
    Int <8 (racial, dump stat).
    Wis <10 (abysmal will save).
    Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Age: 17+ (WXP).
    Feats (3+): Power Attack.
    Skills (6+): Jump.
    Abilities: Dungeoncrasher alternative class feature (forum), half-orc racial abilities, barbarian class abilities.

    Hilgya Firehelm
    Non-lawful (worships the god of chaos) Evil (DCF), Dwarf female, Cleric of Loki 7+ (required to cast Restoration).
    Wis 14+ (required to cast Restoration).
    Skills: Speak Language (Dwarven)
    Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities, Fire domain, one unknown domain.
    Items: Horned helmet, armor, shield, holy symbol (required to use rebuke ability).

    Leeky Windstaff
    Neutral Evil, Gnome male, Druid 13+ (required to cast Fire Storm).
    Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Wis 17+ (required to cast Fire Storm).
    Feats (5+): Leadership.
    Abilities: Gnome racial abilities, druid class abilities, animal companion (hawk "Kitty", deceased).

    Pompey
    Neutral Evil, Half-Elf male, Wizard: Conjurer 5+ (required to cast Still Silent Animate Rope).
    Int 14+ (required to cast four 2nd-level spells per day).
    Age: 44+.
    Feats (3+): Scribe scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell, Still Spell.
    Skills (35+): Knowledge: Arcana.
    Abilities: Half-elf racial abilities, barred schools: evocation and enchantment.
    Items: Spellbook (wizard feature).
    Spells: Animate Rope, Summon Monster I, Summon Monster II, at least 5 touch-range buff spells -- lowest-level possibilities are Mage Armor, Protection from Good, Protection from Law, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance.

    Yikyik (deceased)
    Chaotic Evil (same as Belkar, DCF), Kobold male, Ranger (DCF).
    Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
    Dex 12+ (gets additional attack from Combat Reflexes).
    Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Feats: Combat Reflexes, Track (ranger bonus feat).
    [i]Skills:[/s] Speak Language (Draconic)
    Abilities: Ranger class abilities.
    Items: Dagger.

    Yokyok (deceased)
    Kobold male.
    Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
    Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    [i]Skills:[/s] Speak Language (Draconic)
    Items: Rapier.

    Yukyuk (Deceased)
    Kobold male, Ranger 4+ (required for an animal companion) / Rogue.
    Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
    Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Abilities: Ranger and rogue class abilities, animal companion (riding dog "Sir Scraggly").
    Feats (4+): Endurance, Track (ranger bonus feats).
    [i]Skills:[/s] Speak Language (Draconic)
    Items: Two Crossbows of Quick Loading.



    The Sapphire Guard

    Hinjo
    Lawful Good, Human male, Paladin 11-12 (three attacks per round, but was lower level than Roy during the battle at Azure City, and hasn't leveled up since).
    Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands).
    Age: 26+ (WXP).
    Abilities: Paladin class abilities, Summon Conscience, paladin mount: dire wolf "Argent".
    Items: Cold-iron katana, silvered katana; magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP).

    Lien
    Lawful Good, Human female, Paladin 12+ (higher level than Hinjo).
    Str 13+ (required for Cleave).
    Int 10+ (good, not dumb).
    Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands).
    Age: 29+ (three years older than Hinjo, DSTP).
    Feats (6+): Cleave, Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Weapon Focus: Longspear.
    Abilities: Paladin class abilities, paladin mount: large shark "Razor".
    Items: Longspear; magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); ring of waterbreathing (DSTP).

    Miko Miyazaki (deceased)
    Lawful Good, Human female, Monk 2+ / Fallen Paladin 10+ (three main-hand attacks per round, and higher level than Hinjo).
    Str 13+ (required for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana; the DMG states that a katana is a masterwork bastard sword; wielding it in one hand requires a feat, wielding it in two hands does not).
    Dex 17+ (required for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting).
    Wis 11+ (required to cast Cure Light Wounds in the Miko fight).
    Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands).
    Age: 28+ (WXP).
    Feats (6+): Cleave, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (two off-hand attacks per round), Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Stunning Fist, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting (prerequisite for ITWF).
    Skills (30+): Knowledge: the Planes, Spellcraft 0, Survival +1.
    Abilities: Monk class abilities, unavailable paladin mount: horse "Windstriker".
    Items: Magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); katana, wakizashi.

    O-Chul
    Lawful Good, Human male, Fighter / Paladin 3+ (has Aura of Courage), total level 12+ (higher than Hinjo).
    Str 11+ (can carry Vaarsuvius).
    Con ~25 (WXP).
    Cha <10 (dump stat).
    Age: 29+ (fighter for twelve years, and minimum age for a fighter is 16).
    Skills (45+): Bluff 0, Spellcraft, Swim.
    Abilities: Paladin class abilities.

    Shojo (deceased)
    Chaotic Good, Human male, Aristocrat 14.
    Str / Dex / Con ~4 (no evidence, age).
    Int / Wis / Cha ~13 (no evidence, age).
    Age: 72+ (WXP).
    Feats (6): Improved Paranoia.
    Skills (68+): Bluff, Perform (puppetry).

    Team Tarquin

    Tarquin
    Lawful Evil, Human male, level 16+ (unaffected by Holy Word).
    Age: 51+ (adventuring for 35 years).
    Str 16+ (can carry Nale).
    Con ~9 (no evidence, age).
    Dex 13+ (required for Sidestep Charge or Robilar's Gambit).
    Int, Wis, Cha ~11 (no evidence, age).
    Feats: Quick draw, [Dodge and Sidestep Charge or Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit], Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows
    Skills: Speak Language: Drow Sign Language, Ride, Spellcraft, Spot
    Items: Dagger, helmet, two Rings of Regeneration, Ring of True Seeing, Glamoured Armor, mask that says "Nope" on it, whip, Keoghtum Ointment.

    Malack (Deceased), pseudonym
    Evil, Lizardfolk male vampire, Cleric of Nergal 12 (required for Craft Staff, but no higher spells).
    Age: 200+.
    Str ~18 (no evidence, racial).
    Con n/a (undead).
    Dex ~14 (no evidence, racial).
    Int ~10 (no evidence, racial).
    Wis 20+ (from spells per day).
    Cha ~14 (no evidence, racial).
    Skills: Speak Language (Draconic)
    Feats (5+): Craft Staff, Quicken Spell; Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes (all vampire bonus feats).
    Abilities: Vampire abilities, Cleric Domains (Death and Destruction).
    Items: Holy Symbol.
    Spells: Standard cleric list, plus Death and Destruction domain spells, Protection from Daylight.

    Laurin.jpg Laurin Shattersmith
    Human Female, Psion 17+ (To manifest Wormhole)
    STR, DEX, CON ~9 (No evidence, age)
    INT 19+ (To manifest Wormhole)
    WIS, CHA ~11 (No evidence, age)
    Items: Headband, Red Ioun Stone, Green Ioun Stone, Orange Ioun Stone
    Powers Known: Disintegrate, Mind Probe, Unspecified Attack Power, Wormhole

    Kilkil
    Lawful Neutral Winged Kobold male, level 5-10 (paralyzed by Holy Word).
    Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
    Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Items: Glasses.
    Skills: Speak Language (Draconic)
    Abilities: Flight.

    The Order of the Scribble

    Soon Kim (Deceased)
    Lawful Good, Human Sacred Watcher Male, Paladin 21+ (Low Epic).
    Str 13+ (For EWP (Katana))
    Con n/a (Deathless)
    Cha ~14 (No Evidence, Sacred Watcher)
    Abilities: Flight, Paladin Abilities, Sacred Watcher Abilities, Deathless Abilities
    Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana)
    Skills:
    Items: Enchanted Armor, Katana.
    Spells: Standard Paladin Spells.

    Lirian (deceased, SoD)
    Neutral Good, Female elf Druid 21+ (Low Epic).
    Dex ~12 (no evidence, elf).
    Con ~8 (no evidence, elf).
    Wis 19+ (required to cast Shapechange, SoD)
    Skills: Speak Language (Elven, Druidic)
    Feats:
    Items:
    Spells: Standard Druid, plus Divine Half of the Rift Sealing Ritual, Divine Half of the Gate Building Ritual, Guardian Virus and Guardian Virus Innoculation

    Dorukan (Deceased, SoD)
    Neutral Good, Human Wizard 21+.
    Str/Dex/Con ~4 (No evidence, age)
    Int 19+ (required to cast Gate)
    Age: 71+
    Skills: Spellcraft 24+, Knowledge (Arcana) 24+ (For Epic Spellcasting)
    Feats: Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Epic Spellcasting
    Spells: Arcane Half of the Rift Sealing Ritual, Arcane Half of the Gate Building Ritual, Cloister, Unspecified Conjuration (Calling) spell, "Pure Heart" Ward, Sending, Teleport, Prismatic Spray, Meteor Swarm, Gate, Scrying, Unspecified Fire Spell

    Girard Draketooth (deceased)
    Black Dragon-blooded Human male, Ranger 2/Sorceror 19+ (Low Epic).
    Cha 19+ (required to cast Microcosm)
    Feats: Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, not Epic Spellcasting.
    Spells: Microcosm, Recorded Message/Booby Trap, Invisibility Spell, Other Illusions

    Serini Toormuck
    Halfling female, Rogue 21+ (Low Epic).
    Str ~5 (no evidence, halfling, age)
    Dex ~9 (no evidence, halfling, age)
    Con ~7 (no evidence, age)
    Int/Wis/Cha ~12 (No evidence, age)
    Abilities: Halfling abilities, Rogue abilities
    Skills:
    Feats:
    Items: Shortbow

    Kraagor (Erradicated)
    Non-lawful, Dwarf Male, Barbarian
    Dex ~8 (no evidence, dwarf)
    Con ~12 (no evidence, dwarf)
    Int 8+ (Doesn't use Thog-speak)
    Abilities: Dwarf abilities, Barbarian abilities
    Skills: Speak Language (Dwarven)
    Feats:
    Items: Axe


    Family and other characters

    Celia
    Lawful Good (DSTP), Sylph female, 6+ HD (required to cast Lightning Bolt).
    Cha 16+ (required to cast four 3rd-level spells in a day).
    Age: 22+ (WXP).
    Abilities: Flight, cast sorcerer spells as a caster of a level equal to her HD, shoot lightning out of her fingers (all racial abilities).
    Skills (36+): Spellcraft.
    Items: Black eyeliner pencil, cell phone, 'feeblemind causing' blue dress.
    Spells: Alter Self, Lightning Bolt, either Fog Cloud or Obscuring Mist, no necromancy spells.

    Eugene Greenhilt (deceased, OOPC)
    Lawful Good (SOD), Human male ghost, Wizard: Illusionist 11+ (required to cast Permanent Image).
    Str/Dex ~4 (no evidence, age).
    Con n/a (undead).
    Int 16+ (required to cast Permanent Image).
    Wis ~13 (no evidence, age).
    Cha 6+ (required to become a ghost).
    Age: 81+ (WXP).
    Feats (8+): Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat).
    Items: Spellbook (wizard feature).
    Spells: Detect Scrying, Fly (SOD), Invisibility Sphere, Minor Image (OOPC), Permanent Image, Summon Boot, Teleport (SOD), unspecified chair conjuration (OOPC), unspecified fire spell.

    Julia Greenhilt
    True Neutral, Human female, Wizard 3.
    Int 15+ (required to cast Sending from a scroll).
    Age: 17+ (five years younger than Nale).
    Feats (4): Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat).
    Spells: Feather Fall, Magic Missile.

    Samantha (deceased)
    Evil (NCPB), Human female, Sorcerer 12 (required to cast exactly three 6th level spells in a day).
    Cha 16-21 (required to cast Chain Lightning, but has no bonus spells at level 6). Also, her charisma is higher than Haley's.
    Age: 18.
    Feats (5): Maximize Spell, not Silent Spell, not Still Spell.
    Spells: Chain Lightning, Fireball, Fly, Hold Person, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Protection From Arrows.
    Last edited by RMS Oceanic; 2013-10-29 at 06:33 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #4

    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Ok, just so it doesn't get lost in the previous thread I'll make a handy summary of outstanding issues I have raised for discussion still:

    1) Should the standard of proof be changed to a probablistic one, in light of the Giants recent remarks?

    2) Shouldn't we list V as 15+ (not 15) as I (and quite a few others I cited) would like to?

    3) Can we start adding people like Dorukan, provided others are happy to write them up? They seem to have a stronger claim than random Kobold's on the Linear Guild, and can be better statted.

    4) In light of the probablistic standard, we should adjust Xykon to 27+

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mage Paradox View Post
    Ok, just so it doesn't get lost in the previous thread I'll make a handy summary of outstanding issues I have raised for discussion still:

    1) Should the standard of proof be changed to a probablistic one, in light of the Giants recent remarks?

    2) Shouldn't we list V as 15+ (not 15) as I (and quite a few others I cited) would like to?

    3) Can we start adding people like Dorukan, provided others are happy to write them up? They seem to have a stronger claim than random Kobold's on the Linear Guild, and can be better statted.

    4) In light of the probablistic standard, we should adjust Xykon to 27+

    1) I say yes, but I would be for seeing the different ways things could be done, and then having a vote of some sort. Or maybe have a spoiler text version of several scenarios, that way everyone wins until we can some how nail down more proof on the matter.

    2) I would rather have it left as 15. It doesn't matter to me that much, but besides the equivalent of someone saying on panel their current level, their spells per day is a pretty good alternative. If RC hadn't told his level, he still would have casted two implosions, but the fact he stated his level is why he is 17.

    Should everyone just have a + by their name and put an end to it?

    3) I would like to have other characters up here, if enough sufficient data can be given it would be nice.

    4) Go back to 1. I would like to see the several different ways Xykon can be at his level, having his minimum listed, and then the several scenarios either spoilered explaining how he would be at X level, or a vote taken to determine which is the most popular. That way either everyone can decide for themselves what level Xykon is through different scenarios, or the majority of the thread can decide his level.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Codyage View Post
    1) I say yes, but I would be for seeing the different ways things could be done, and then having a vote of some sort.
    This thread runs on evidence, not popularity. For instance, if a large amount of people come in and state that Belkar is good-aligned now (and yes, we have such users on the forum), then that still doesn't change the fact that we have evidence that he's evil. So no, we have never run this thread by voting on things, and we're not going to start now.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Love the new thread sub-title.

    That is all. Carry on.
    The prison was full of British officers who had sworn to die, rather than be captured.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    I don't propose a vote, but at the same time the standard clearly needs to be revised given the recent remarks by the Giant that he will actively undermine the thread by making things impossible to determine (and that everything is now homebrew). I can't see how else the thread can survive.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mage Paradox View Post
    4) In light of the probablistic standard, we should adjust Xykon to 27+
    I'm strongly against this, mainly because of #442 - Xykon might be overestimating Roy's level, but he is experienced enough put a rough estimate on it based on i.e. whether or not he has made his saves. 22-23 is possible, maybe even 24 or 25 - but nothing as ridiculous as 27+. His own words carry far more evidence than speculation based purely on extremely badly designed epic feats (why would there be any need for multiple epic feats for something that just duplicates the effect of a common magic tool?)
    Last edited by SinsI; 2013-05-06 at 04:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    I'm strongly against this, mainly because of #442 - Xykon might be overestimating Roy's level, but he is experienced enough put a rough estimate on it based on i.e. whether or not he has made his saves. 22-23 is possible, maybe even 24 or 25 - but nothing as ridiculous as 27+.
    I'm not fixed on 27, but I think we can all agree he must be above 21 at this point.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    I think it's extremely dangerous to make remarks like "I think we can all agree that...", especially regarding Xykon's level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mage Paradox View Post
    I don't propose a vote, but at the same time the standard clearly needs to be revised given the recent remarks by the Giant that he will actively undermine the thread by making things impossible to determine (and that everything is now homebrew). I can't see how else the thread can survive.
    Can someone link? Haven't been keeping up with this. never mind found it

    If anything, it becomes all the more important to establish what we know.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2013-05-06 at 05:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    As for changing the standards of the thread, there is really no new news concerning rules consistency. I mean, we knew way way back when Belkar sundered Elan's rapier that it was Rule of Funny, it isn't like the idea that the comic doesn't follow rules is something we just learned.
    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I believe this amply demonstrates my point. It's simply better for the thread's health to not try and make judgments on what's more "plausible" that are just going to devolve into an exchange of "no you're wrong", especially since the only authority that could resolve them has explicitly said he won't be doing so.
    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Mathematicians have known since the 1930s that there exist statements (including the consistency of all sufficiently strong consistent axiom systems) which are true but can neither be proven nor disproven. This doesn't mean we have lowered our standards for what constitutes a proof. It just means that we only claim to have proven what we can actually prove. For example, we know Roy has gained a level since dying. That is not probabilistic. We do not know what level Xykon is--that is your own personal speculation.
    Well said.

    So anyway, near the end of the last thread there was discussion to cover more characters. According to the Number Of Appearances thread, the most frequently occuring characters that aren't covered in CALG yet are Daigo, Kazumi, and the demon roaches. Is there something useful we can say about them, stat-wise?
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Well said.

    So anyway, near the end of the last thread there was discussion to cover more characters. According to the Number Of Appearances thread, the most frequently occuring characters that aren't covered in CALG yet are Daigo, Kazumi, and the demon roaches. Is there something useful we can say about them, stat-wise?
    Daigo and Kazumi are sixth level.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    I notice you quote 2 people who agree with you, and ignore all the ones who agreed with me, that the Giant's statement represented something significant, which required a serious re-evaluation of the thread. Our views are also worth responding to I think. In addition one of the two people you quote also said we should relax the rules to allow more "could be this", or "potentially X" comments added.

    The Giant just said that every single class, feat, etc, which is introduced is now homebrew. Forget about Tarquin having a class... he is now Class Tarquin (as someone else pointed out), intentionally to never be revealed, and any evidence that does seem to reveal his class is wrong. How can one look at that statement, and come to the conclusion nothing has changed? The fundamental premise of the thread has changed. Several people suggested closing the thread, while I suggested relaxing the burden of proof, which multiple people supported (including one you quoted, albeit to a different degree). I mean, to paraphrase one poster, we are almost at the point now where we're statting "what this character's stats would look like, if this comic was done according to the rules", which it apparently no longer is. "There are no rules. None." Direct quote.
    Last edited by Mage Paradox; 2013-05-06 at 08:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    For what it's worth, there are at least a few things we can say about Gannji...

    We know race (lizardfolk), class (rogue), alignment (true neutral by Word of Giant), and we can ballpark his level pretty well because Kilkil indicated how much wealth an NPC of his level would have.

    There are a few instances of possible feat use -- maybe improved disarm and improved trip, though what we see in the comic may not be enough to justify those. (At least, the bit where he tossed Haley's bow with that weapon of his seemed like it would require some kind of feat, even if homebrew.)

    As far as skills go, we've seen him use UMD (enough to teleport) and Use Rope (which Haley effortlessly overcame). We also see him Bluff, and a couple of strips may be evidence of Diplomacy.

    For equipment, as of his last appearance, he appears to have nothing except his gladiator armor. And, we know the normal lizardfolk stuff (speaks draconic, racial modifiers, etc).

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    This thread runs on evidence, not popularity. For instance, if a large amount of people come in and state that Belkar is good-aligned now (and yes, we have such users on the forum), then that still doesn't change the fact that we have evidence that he's evil. So no, we have never run this thread by voting on things, and we're not going to start now.
    All right, I agree with you there, I do see the flaw in voting.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mage Paradox View Post
    I notice you quote 2 people who agree with you, and ignore all the ones who agreed with me, that the Giant's statement represented something significant, which required a serious re-evaluation of the thread. Our views are also worth responding to I think. In addition one of the two people you quote also said we should relax the rules to allow more "could be this", or "potentially X" comments added.

    The Giant just said that every single class, feat, etc, which is introduced is now homebrew. Forget about Tarquin having a class... he is now Class Tarquin (as someone else pointed out), intentionally to never be revealed, and any evidence that does seem to reveal his class is wrong. How can one look at that statement, and come to the conclusion nothing has changed? The fundamental premise of the thread has changed. Multiple people suggested closing the thread, while I suggested relaxing the burden of proof, which multiple people supported (including one you quoted, albeit to a different degree). I mean, to paraphrase one poster, we are almost at the point now where we're statting "what this character's stats would look like, if this comic was done according to the rules", which it apparently no longer is. "There are no rules. None." Direct quote.
    Why does this public change in attitude by Rich mean the thread *must* change RIGHT NOW?

    Presumably the thought didn't occur to him the very instant he put up the post. I suspect, based on past strips, that he's been drifting in that direction for quite some time. The immediate impact on the strip, compared with how things were, say, yesterday, is roughly zero and we're still just speculating on what the future will hold. Lets see what the future brings.
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    frown Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mage Paradox View Post
    Ok, just so it doesn't get lost in the previous thread I'll make a handy summary of outstanding issues I have raised for discussion still:

    1) Should the standard of proof be changed to a probablistic one, in light of the Giants recent remarks?
    Let me start by appologizeing, I feel that what the giant said is my fault. My first day out of lurking and I only did so becuse I wanted to come here to one of these threads becuse I thought his rendtion of mage slayer was soo awsome. I think my post may have led to this statement. I cryed when I got home from work last night thinking about the damage I may have helped cause to my fav thread to read.

    I agree the only way this can keep going is to step back and say it doesn't need to be as much proof. In the US we have 2 burden of proofs, civil and Criminal. Criminal is beyond a reasnable doubt, and I belive what we have gone with so far. I suggest we switch to closer to the civil court burden... by a perpondurunce of the eviedance.

    2) Shouldn't we list V as 15+ (not 15) as I (and quite a few others I cited) would like to?
    I would say anyone we don't have an upper limit on should get that...

    3) Can we start adding people like Dorukan, provided others are happy to write them up? They seem to have a stronger claim than random Kobold's on the Linear Guild, and can be better statted.
    useing the spoiler blocks I think we should put anyone we have enough to determain a reasnable range of levels...

    4) In light of the probablistic standard, we should adjust Xykon to 27+
    I don't know if he is 27, but I would like to hear any argument that he is onl 21, becuse I do belive he has to have atleast a few epic feats (multi high level spells, epic spell, and even an item creation)
    Current characters:
    Spoiler
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    Trish- 3rd/5th battlemaster fighter/infernal sword warlock (5e D&D)
    Vesper-6th Gen Tremer (OwoD)
    Emerald Star- PL13 GL of Earth (Mutants and Masterminds DCU)

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    but are they fighters or warriors?
    Current characters:
    Spoiler
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    Trish- 3rd/5th battlemaster fighter/infernal sword warlock (5e D&D)
    Vesper-6th Gen Tremer (OwoD)
    Emerald Star- PL13 GL of Earth (Mutants and Masterminds DCU)

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    The funny thing is that, and this is based on nothing more than gut having followed Rich's work for years, is that I don't think he's precisely telling the truth with his post. Yes, he gets frustrated at having to be consistent to a minute level and he doesn't like reading people's complaints.

    Rich is a story-teller, but he got his start as a storyteller as a DM, which is a very detailed and backstory demanding kind of storyteller (sort of the opposite of the Steven King "lets throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" approach) and Rich can't *not* be a DM. He's spent a big chunk of his life being one in various ways and its how he cut his teeth.

    I think Rich *absolutely* knows what class Tarquin is because that information is part of the structure uses to create the story. However, Rich will probably never tell us because people arguing over class specific details is a hindrance to the storytelling and an annoyance to him personally. With his post, Rich is just making clear a trend that's been going on for a bit, which is that he's not going to tell us what that truth is. But that doesn't mean there isn't a truth out there to be found, in fact I feel strongly that there is.

    As time goes on, it might be necessary to shift to a more lenient standard of truth, whether that's MageParadox's probabilistic whatever or something else. And its possible Rich will be *so* obscure in his ability presentation that we won't be able to figure anything out ever again and the thread will eventually fold after being forced to subsist on scraps for a long enough time.

    But that's all in the future. Lets see what it brings before deciding if change is even necessary, let alone what sort of change.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2013-05-06 at 07:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Quote Originally Posted by HardcoreD&Dgirl View Post
    but are they fighters or warriors?
    They probably are!

    (I seriously doubt we'll ever know for sure, even if the Giant weren't obfuscating)
    Last edited by Shale; 2013-05-06 at 07:49 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes, characters that have a similar hairstyle just have a similar hairstyle. How many hairstyles do you think there are that can be drawn in stick figure style, anyway?

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    I think Rich *absolutely* knows what class Tarquin is because that information is part of the structure uses to create the story. However, Rich will probably never tell us because people arguing over class specific details is a hindrance to the storytelling and an annoyance to him personally. With his post, Rich is just making clear a trend that's been going on for a bit, which is that he's not going to tell us what that truth is. But that doesn't mean there isn't a truth out there to be found, in fact I feel strongly that there is.
    I really think we should take Rich at his word, which is the following (emphasis added):
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Ooo! I have a reason! Because I have a vested interest in never, ever mentioning any rule artifact by its official name ever again.*

    See, that other thread where I just posted that I wish I could decouple the comic from D&D? One of the main ways I'm mitigating the effects of the people who complain about rules accuracy is by deliberately obfuscating all rules, so it's impossible to tell exactly what is or isn't being done. No one can complain that I messed up the interpretation of a certain feat if they don't know what feat it is. The only exceptions are spells, because I unfortunately established that casters shout the name of the spell when they cast it, and I can't change that now. But for a while now, ALL feats have been homebrewed feats, all items have been homebrewed items, all new characters have unspecified classes, etc. Even when I have a specific actual game rule in mind when I use them.

    Of course, that means I am working in direct active opposition to the purpose of this thread and there will never be an official definitive answer for anything that occurs ever again. Whoops.
    Rich just made it clear that everything from now on (except spells) is made up, does not comply with D&D rules (which he wishes he could de-couple from the characters completely), and that he will actively work to prevent this thread gaining any accurate answers (and that we shouldn't trust his presentation as confirming anything we think it did, because everything is made up homebrew that he will never tell us). I don't know how much more definitive it can be than this.

    What exactly do you think you'll be statting when you try and write say Tarquin's character sheet? It won't be "the truth", that's for sure, because everything about him is apparently a mysterious homebrew which Giant will never, ever reveal or clarify. It's literally impossible to discuss what his class and feats and items and such are. All we can do is try and interpret what they probably would be, if Rich was still using D&D rules.
    Last edited by Mage Paradox; 2013-05-06 at 07:59 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    To those that suggest that we're never going to be able to glean any hard and fast useful information from the comic ever again, I would like to point out that this move by the Giant isn't one that occurred yesterday, it's one that occurred some time ago, and we're just now being informed of it. The change occurred at least as far back as the introduction of Tarquin, in order to not have anyone explicitly say what class he is. So this has been going on for some time. In light of that, please note that just in the last 30 strips, we've been able to define a basement level for Tarquin, an exact ECL for Belkar, an exact class level for Durkon and Zz'dtri, a level range for Kilkil, and add a template and a partial alignment for Malack.

    I'd also like to go on the record in the new thread as being opposed to expanding the thread to include characters like Dorukan, Kazumi, and Daigo for whom we only have one or two snippets of meaningful information. I understand that some of the other entries in the thread aren't terribly well fleshed out either, but this seems to me more like an argument for clearing out the poorly defined characters already on the thread than adding a bunch more whose stat blocks basically consist of unknowns.
    Last edited by rgrekejin; 2013-05-06 at 07:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    just making more of a random thought, but Roy's level is probably higher then listed. The illusion in the most recent strip seems to have a certain logical consistency to it (Belkar dying to meteor swarm, V having to be introduced to neutralize red cloak) and xykon says Roy is higher level then he was in the azure city arc, which IIRC was 14 ish. Roy would know if he was lower or the same level as then, so its most likely accurate. Not saying immediately throw him to 15+, just making a note.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mage Paradox View Post
    I really think we should take Rich at his word, which is the following (emphasis added):


    Rich just made it clear that everything from now on (except spells) is made up, does not comply with D&D rules (which he wishes he could de-couple from the characters completely), and that he will actively work to prevent this thread gaining any accurate answers (and that we shouldn't trust his presentation as confirming anything we think it did, because everything is made up homebrew that he will never tell us). I don't know how much more definitive it can be than this.

    What exactly do you think you'll be statting when you try and write say Tarquin's character sheet? It won't be "the truth", that's for sure, because everything about him is apparently a mysterious homebrew which Giant will never, ever reveal or clarify. It's literally impossible to discuss what his class and feats and items and such are. All we can do is try and interpret what they probably would be, if Rich was still using D&D rules.
    So he has said, and so you say. But I don't think things will suddenly get a lot worse than they've been the last few dozen strips and I think rgrekejin's response to this is excellent.

    Besides, I fear I've contributed to us veering off-track here and I don't have anything left to say on the topic anyway, so I'm done.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2013-05-06 at 08:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    I empathize with Rich. The constant bickering over rules and "what should have happened" is why I stopped playing D&D in the first place. I believe Rich wants to tell a story, to free the narrative from his head, without stopping every 3 strips to defend himself. "No!" the detractors say, "that's not the story you're imagining!" Yes, yes it is.

    As far as assigning probabilities to certain configurations, I doubt it's possible. There's no math on which to decide such a probability. Everyone would want his favorite pet theory to have the greatest chance of being right. "No, MY idea is 40% probability and YOURS are 25% and 35%."

    Your best bet is to treat this as a non-D&D story. You have definite proof that it won't necessarily line up 100% to any rule you know.
    The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Well, if we're going to change the restrictions:

    I'd like to vote that we disallow Belkar's "Owl's Wisdom / Cure Scroll" scene for determining Belkar's Wisdom. I personally always thought that Rich meant to use Cure Moderate Wounds anyway.

    The evidence for his poor Wisdom is much stronger using other sources, and the attempts to make it work with the rules in this scene strain that.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    While I agree with Mage Paradox about Xykon being at least level 26 (I can't understand why you insist to say he is 27. But if I'm wrong, please explain), I recently changed my idea about it and can't agree, for the sake of the stability of this thread, with Xykon being listed as 26/27+.

    But what I find completely ridiculous is some people arguing that "27 is too much for him". Folks, we're talking about a frickin' scary guy who knows at least 3 epic spells, so I don't think is any weaker than this estimation. Even so, we don't have solid evidence about his exact level in the way we discovered, as rgrekejin pointed out, the levels of Tarquin and the rest of the Linear Guild, therefore I repeat, I don't agree with Xykon being listed at 26/27+, unless someone come with a good argument.

    I also have to be coherent, so this time I go with Mage Paradox and agree with him about Vaarsuvius being listed as 15+. This is the only evidence we have about he/she being at equal level with Z and I don't think it is very reliable, given the problems we will probably have with this thing of equal level, like in the case of Sabine and Haley, for example.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Just for LO's understanding, the original reason to peg Xykon as level 27 was 652's use of Maximized Energy Drain. There were a number of ways discussed to explain this, as that would be a twelfth level spell slot:

    - Improved Spell Capacity x3 (Requires 3 epic feats in addition to Epic Spell Casting, hence level 27)
    - Improved Megamagic x2 Plus ISC (Pushes the level even higher because this can only be taken at 27 and higher, and wouldn't account for the Still Meteor Swarm of 653)
    - Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize (can be used pre-epic, but most rods are pretty visible)
    - Sudden Maximize from Complete Arcane (1/day free Maximize, can be used pre-epic)

    My own personal opinion for how he could do it is the first explanation, but that is not universally agreed, especially depending on what sources one uses to explain abilities, be it the three corebooks, d20 SRD or beyond. However my opinion is not based on the sentiment of "there's no way he could have levelled up that fast" or "if he's that level nobody can defeat him". My philosophy with this isn't concerned with how someone levels up or what implications this has, just that they have done so. But this is just one voice among many, so while I think it's safe to say we're pretty sure he's stronger than level 21, we can't yet explain for certain why.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Living Oxymoron View Post
    While I agree with Mage Paradox about Xykon being at least level 26 (I can't understand why you insist to say he is 27. But if I'm wrong, please explain), I recently changed my idea about it and can't agree, for the sake of the stability of this thread, with Xykon being listed as 26/27+.

    But what I find completely ridiculous is some people arguing that "27 is too much for him". Folks, we're talking about a frickin' scary guy who knows at least 3 epic spells, so I don't think is any weaker than this estimation. Even so, we don't have solid evidence about his exact level in the way we discovered, as rgrekejin pointed out, the levels of Tarquin and the rest of the Linear Guild, therefore I repeat, I don't agree with Xykon being listed at 26/27+, unless someone come with a good argument.
    While I agree that Xykon is probably higher than level 21 (my personal suspicion is that he's in the 23-24 range) we don't have any evidence that conclusively shows that he's higher than level 21. The best argument for it is that he can cast Maximized Energy Drain, but that effect could easily have been done with a single non-epic feat (Sudden Maximize) from one of the most commonly-used non-core books in the comic (Complete Arcane) that Xykon has already been shown to have the prerequisites for. So while we all agree that he's probably higher level than 21, none of us can agree on how much higher, so the basement stays where it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Living Oxymoron View Post
    I also have to be coherent, so this time I go with Mage Paradox and agree with him about Vaarsuvius being listed as 15+. This is the only evidence we have about he/she being at equal level with Z and I don't think it is very reliable, given the problems we will probably have with this thing of equal level, like in the case of Sabine and Haley, for example.
    Yeah, I'm actually all for listing V as 15+ as well. It couldn't possibly hurt.
    Last edited by rgrekejin; 2013-05-06 at 11:27 AM.

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