# Thread: AC and attack rolls, Saving throws? Variant Rule (PEACH)

1. ## AC and attack rolls, Saving throws? Variant Rule (PEACH)

I was teaching my little brother how to play D&D the other day, and he asked me why Armor Class and Saving throws were different. (This came up because that was how I explained it to him, that they work similar.) So I asked myself why as well and began playing with numbers.

You make an attack roll.
1d20 + BAB + ability modifier
against a DC of
10 + Reflex save

The difference is a change in BAB. You still have Good, Average, and Poor but the progression has changed.
Good is equal to 2 + 1/2 Levels in a Good BAB class
Average is equal to 1 + 5/12 Levels in a Average BAB class
Poor is equal to 1/3 Levels in a Poor BAB class

These progressions are also used to create an average save bonus.
The average progression was created with the fact that 5/12 is directly between 1/2 and 1/3. The +1 differentiates it at low levels (that was the original purpose of the +2 bonus on good saves, so they were different than poor at level 1).

Iterative attacks take a -2 penalty on the attack roll.

Power Attack and Combat expertise provide double bonus in exchange for penalties since the max BAB went from 20 to 12. Other bonuses and penalties are currently unchanged.

2. ## Re: AC and attack rolls, Saving throws? Variant Rule (PEACH)

Let me see if I've got this straight. You realized that saves and AC are different in that saves allow the defender to roll against a static number while AC allows the aggressor to roll against a static number. You didn't see why AC should be different from saves so you changed it. To solve this, you have changed the system.

In your system, saves allow the defender to roll against a static number while AC allows the aggressor to roll against a static number. In other words, not much has changed about the difference between saves and AC.

Were you talking about a different difference between AC or saves or something?

Edit: Also, how does your system work with armor (as it helps in avoiding damage from attacks without helping your reflexes).

3. ## Re: AC and attack rolls, Saving throws? Variant Rule (PEACH)

It's changed so AC doesn't exist, and is replaced by Reflex saves.

Now Reflex saves are the God Stat. That needs to be mitigated somehow, either by nerfing Reflex into two separate categories or by buffing Will saves (Fort doesn't need a buff since it runs off of Con, which is already a big deal).

I think this misses out on iterative attacks (play below level 6, problem solved), and the "medium" progression is terrible. Maybe embrace the loss of evenness and just make it 1 + 2/5?

4. ## Re: AC and attack rolls, Saving throws? Variant Rule (PEACH)

@realms of chaos
No, please read what I wrote. You roll an attack roll vs a DC. That DC is equal to your reflex save bonus plus ten. Variable offense, Static defense. We do this with all saves at my table because it is more familiar with my players.

As for the difference between AC and saves there is none because in this variant, AC is replaced with a reflex save.

This is because it grates on my nerves that AC is a DC for attack rolls but uses a different progression than all other saves in the game. It also bothers me that "AC" does not improve outside of equipment.

As for armor, well I was looking for some kind of armor as DR type rule to handle that. I like seerow's version and the damage conversion variant in UA.

@just to browse
1) Yes, reflex needs a nerf. Most classes are going to end up with a medium or poor reflex progression.

2) I want iteratives. I halved the penalty because -5 is way to harsh on a roll vs. a static save.

3) Good point on the 2/5 for average, the difference is tiny and it is easy to work with fifths than twelfths.

Touch Attacks
Flatfooted condition

5. ## Re: AC and attack rolls, Saving throws? Variant Rule (PEACH)

Originally Posted by The Winter King
@realms of chaos
No, please read what I wrote. You roll an attack roll vs a DC. That DC is equal to your reflex save bonus plus ten. Variable offense, Static defense. We do this with all saves at my table because it is more familiar with my players.
THIS was the part I didn't quite get. You talked about how AC was different and your desire to fix it and I didn't realize you had simply destroyed AC and that all of your Saves were now static values (I had thought that reflex saves and AC were still separate entities, even if you derive the latter from the former). It's an understandable mistake, is what I'm hoping to say.

Speaking of which, rather than nerfing reflex, perhaps give power to simply shrug off some amount of harm through toughness (Fortitude) or to ignore pain and continue functioning ala autohypnosis (Will). Touch attacks can ignore fortitude resistance, flat-footed attacks can ignore reflex resistance, and will resistance won't be the best option in most cases either way (as you're ignoring harm rather than avoiding it or shrugging it off). Random ideas.

6. ## Re: AC and attack rolls, Saving throws? Variant Rule (PEACH)

Also, I have a crazy preference for high values so that characters of different levels have noticeable differences, so I recommend making everything med/high like BAB and turning saves into BAB progressions, instead of the other way around.

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