[3.5] Revamping the fighter for my Campaign Setting. Critiques welcome!

[ddude987]

Intro
This is my first class remake I've done and posted onto the forums. I saw a lot of fighter fixes going on so I bumped it up. PEACH! Your input is really important to me.

The Goal
To make martial classes have interesting, unique abilities and to make them feel not only more powerful but more useful in general both in and out of combat.

Your Thoughts?
I am seeking answers to the following questions:
-Does this rework make fighter interesting as a class?
-Does it improve the fighters versatility
-Is it balanced relative to the three martial adepts found in Tome of Battle
-Also considering a name change, or an added word to sound cool and unique
Without further ado...

FIGHTER
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|

Special

|

Strategist

|

Veteran

|

Leader

1st|+1|

+2

|

+2

|

+0

|Aspect|Intelligent Combatant|Warrior's Intuition|Gilded Tongue

2nd|+2|

+3

|

+3

|

+0

|Bonus Feat, Battle Ready|||

3rd|+3|

+3

|

+3

|

+1

|Dungeon Crasher, Combat Specialist

4th|+4|

+4

|

+4

|

+1

|Known, Seasoned Warrior

5th|+5|

+4

|

+4

|

+1

|Bonus Feat, Intuitive +1

6th|+6/+1|

+5

|

+5

|

+2

|Hold Breath, Party Aura +1

7th|+7/+2|

+5

|

+5

|

+2

||Improved Flanking|Shared Senses|Spirited Shout

8th|+8/+3|

+6

|

+6

|

+2

|Bonus Feat, Shake it Off

9th|+9/+4|

+6

|

+6

|

+3

|Mettle

10th|+10/+5|

+7

|

+7

|

+3

| Intuitive +2, Swift Warrior

11th|+11/+6/+1|

+7

|

+7

|

+3

|Bonus Feat, Steadfast Grip

12th|+12/+7/+2|

+8

|

+8

|

+4

|Party Aura +2

13th|+13/+8/+3|

+8

|

+8

|

+4

||Evasion|Uncanny Dodge|Improved Morale

14th|+14/+9/+4|

+9

|

+9

|

+4

|Bonus Feat, Improved Shake it Off

15th|+15/+10/+5|

+9

|

+9

|

+5

|Intuitive +3

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|

+10

|

+10

|

+5

|

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|

+10

|

+10

|

+5

|Bonus Feat

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|

+11

|

+11

|

+6

|Party Aura +3

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|

+11

|

+11

|

+6

||Freedom of Movement|Blindsense 60|Mind Blank

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|

+12

|

+12

|

+6

|bonus Feat, Intuitive +4[/table]



Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills
Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform(Weapon Drill) (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex)
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Bonus Feat: At Second, and every third fighter level after, the fighter gains a bonus feat. This feat must be a feat that is specifically allowed as a fighter bonus feat. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites of a bonus feat, including ability scores and base attack bonus minimums.

Aspect: Every fighter has a story, and every Fighter is destined to have great influence, for better or worse. At first level the fighter gains an Aspect representing his past experiences, Strategist, Veteran or Leader, gaining the benefits as shown on the table below. Once selected, a fighter cannot change his Aspect.

{table=head]|Strategist|Veteran|Leader

New Skills|Knowledge (all except Arcana, Religion, Planes, Psionic)|Heal, Sense Motive, Survival|Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information

Special|Intelligent Combatant|Warrior's Intuition|Gilded Tongue[/table]

Intelligent Combatant: A Strategist understands his opponents' fighting styles and weaknesses. At levels 7, 13, and 19 a strategist gains new abilities.

• Improved Flanking: At 7th level a strategist gains the ability to flank opponents from any direction. Once per round as a free action he can select one opponent he has hit with an attack this round. That opponent is treated as flanked until the start of the strategist's next turn.
• Evasion: At 13th level the strategist gains evasion. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can only be used in medium or light armor. A helpless strategist does not gain the benefit of evasion. If the strategist already has evasion he gains improved evasion instead.
• Freedom of Movement (Ex): At 19th level a strategist has learned how to move through any obstacle. He gains the effects of the freedom of movement spell as an extraordinary ability. In addition, a strategist can move through any terrain at full speed with no penalties.

Warrior's Intuition: A veteran has experienced the hardships of battle and warfare. At levels 7, 13, and 19 a veteran gains new abilities.

• Shared Senses: At 7th level a veteran has made a strong connection with the rest of his party. The veteran projects a 30 foot aura that affects all allies with an intelligence of at least 3. All allies within the aura are instantly aware of another creatures presence if at least one person in the aura is aware. In addition, allies cannot be flat-footed if at least one ally in the aura is not flat-footed.
• Uncanny Dodge: At 13th level a veteran gains uncanny dodge. He retains his dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a fighter already has uncanny dodge he gains improved uncanny dodge instead.
• Blindsense (Ex): At 19th level the veteran has developed a keen sense of his surroundings at all times. He gains continuous blindsense 60 as an extraordinary ability.

Gilded Tongue: A Leader is born with high stature and excels at being in command. At levels 7, 13, and 19 a leader gains new abilities.

• Spirited Shout: At 7th level a leader can shout commands and words of inspiration to his allies. At the start of combat, before initiative is rolled, a fighter can shout a command as an immediate action, projecting a 60 foot aura that grants allies a morale bonus equal to his Strength modifier to the leader's choice of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution based checks for the rest of the encounter. A leader can dismiss the aura as a free action.
• Improved Morale: At 13th level a leader's auras improve. His auras now grant a morale bonus equal to his Strength modifier in place of the standard bonus granted.
• Mind Blank (Ex): At 19th level the leader has perfected controlling his own mind. He gains the effects of the mind blank spell as an extraordinary ability.

Spoiler

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This is how different players can diversify their fighter. I spent a lot of time thinking of these abilities and they came out well. They reduce MAD as an added bonus.

Combat Specialist: If a fighter dedicates himself to using a specific weapon, he gains bonus abilities as described. At 3rd level, the fighter picks a weapon he has access to. Beginning at 3rd level, he gains special abilities that apply to the weapon. Table 1-2 details the abilities a fighter gains for his weapon. Where there are multiple abilities for a level, the fighter only gains the one appropriate for his weapon of choice. For example, a 9th level fighter who chose a bastard sword as his weapon gains the Melee Weapon Mastery ability. If your selected weapon would qualify for more than one special ability you select one. By spending one hour of practice with a weapon the fighter may switch all of these abilities to that weapon.

{table=head]Level|Ability|Description

3|Weapon Specilization|At 3rd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with his selected weapon. For every three levels beyond that, this bonus increases by 1.

9|Weapon Mastery|If the fighter's selected weapon is a ranged weapon, increase its range increment by 20 feet. If the selected weapon is a melee weapon it does damage as a weapon of one size larger.

15|Crushing Strike|When a fighter full attacks with his selected weapon, each attack that connects grants a cumulative +1 bonus on attack rolls until the start of your next turn. He gains this ability if his selected weapon is a bludgeoning weapon.

15|Driving Attack|A fighter may use a full-round action to make a single melee attack with his selected weapon. If he succeeds in hitting, he can initiate a bull rush attempt against the target. This bull rush uses his total bonus on damage rolls in place of his Strength modifier. he does not provoke an attack of opportunity with this bull rush, and he cannot move forward with his opponent. If he succeeds in pushing an opponent back 10 feet or more, he can reduce the distance you push him by 10 feet to have the target fall prone. A fighter gains this ability if his selected weapon is a piercing weapon.

15|Slashing Fury|When a fighter uses a standard action to attack with his selected weapon, he can choose to make a second attack with that weapon. He takes a -5 penalty on the first attack, and a -10 penalty on the second. When he uses a full attack action with any slashing weapon, he gains one additional attack at your highest base attack bonus. That attack and all other attacks you make in the current round take a -2 penalty. A fighter gains this ability if his selected weapon is a slashing weapon.

15|Piercing Blow|The fighter's attacks with the selected weapon do not provoke attacks of opportunity. In addition, when he full attacks reduce the penalty, if any, of all attacks made with his selected weapon by 2. A fighter gains this ability if his selected weapon is a ranged weapon.

18|Weapon Supremacy|When fighting with his selected weapon, a fighter gains a number of additional advantages. He gains a +4 bonus on all checks made to resist being disarmed. He can wield his weapon against a foe who grapples him without penalty and without first making a grapple check. In this situation, he can take a standard action or a full attack action as normal. When he takes a full attack action, he can apply a +5 bonus to any single attack after his first strike. Once per round before making an attack roll, he can instead choose to treat your d20 result as a 10. He gains a +1 bonus to AC when wielding his selected weapon.
[/table]

Spoiler

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In my campaign setting the weapon focus line are no longer feats, but abilities unique to the fighter.

Battle Ready: Beginning at 2nd level, a fighter adds half his Fighter levels rounded down to his initiative bonus.

Spoiler

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Initiative is good and makes the fighter more threatening. Its no celerity, but it will have to do.

Dungeon Crasher: A fighter excels at overwhelming traps, breaking down doors, and pushing aside his enemies. At 3rd level, he gains a +2 competence bonus to saves and to his Armor Class when affected by traps. He also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.
In addition, a fighter gains a special benefit when making a bull rush. If he forces an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, the momentum crushes the opponent against it, dealing 4d6 + twice the fighter's Strength bonus (if any).
At 6th level, the bonuses when dealing with traps increase to +4 and the bonus on Strength checks to break objects increases to +10. The damage a fighter deals when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 + three times his Strength bonus.

Known: At this point in a fighter's career he begins to be recognized. Depending on the fighter's actions, he may be recognized in a good way or a bad way. The fighter is considered famous, or infamous, depending on his actions throughout his career. It is encouraged that both the player and the DM reach a consensus as the which path the fighter walks. This path can change if the fighter changes his actions or motives. The DM may also make up new paths in addition to the two provided.
As the fighter's level improves he gains more bonuses and becomes recognized by a wider audience. The table below shows this progression.

{table=head]Level|Famous|Infamous
4-7|Diplomacy +2, recognition|Intimidate +2, recognition
8-11|Diplomacy +4, Sense Motive +2, Merchant|Intimidate +4, Bluff +2, Haggle
12-15|Diplomacy +6, Sense Motive +4, Diplomatic Immunity|Intimidate +6, Bluff +4, Cut-Throat
16-20|Sense Motive +6, Resurrection|Intimidate +6, Ressurection
[/table]
Recognition: The fighter is recognized by specific audiences as his career progresses. He is recognized by nobles, royalty, and soldiers in at least a large town or larger at 4th level. By 8th level he is also recognized by most smallfolk in large towns or larger and merchants, nobles, royalty, and soldiers in small towns or larger. By 12th level the fighter is recognized by most passersby. Though the fighter is recognized by a wide range of people, most of these people have only heard of him in rumors or stories, some true, some exaggerated. As such, this ability should not be used against the fighter except under DM discression.
The fighter may have meals and stay at inns in large towns or larger free of charge. In addition, the fighter will not be arrested for minor breakings of the law. If a fighter is famous, he is seen in a good light and as such should not abuse privileges gained by being famous or he will no longer be seen in such a way.

Merchant: The fighter sells any items at 60% their market value as opposed to the normal 50%.

Haggle: The fighter receives a 10% discount on any mundane gear, and any magical armor, shields, or weapons he intends to wield. This discount includes the fighter further enchanting any armor, shields, or weapons he already possesses.

Diplomatic Immunity: The fighter is seen in such a positive way that any group other than those of sworn enemies against him will not arrest the fighter for most crimes. In addition, the fighters word will be taken over the word of any person with less hit dice than the fighter, except for people in positions of absolute power (i.e king, dictator, etc…).

Cut-throat: (This needs a real name) The fighter gains a 20% discount on any hired help or work such as hiring an assassin or a wizard to cast a spell. In addition, such hired help will never be traced back to the fighter. The fighter also gains a 50% increase in any payments made to him for jobs or quests. This payment is increased to 25% if the job or quest was against the laws of the region it takes place in or if the job takes place in an unsettled region, the place the fighter was hired from.

Resurrection: The fighter is so highly revered that if he is killed performing a service, the party that hired him, or the party he was aiding, will pay an appropriate source to resurrect him provided his body has been recovered.

[ddude987]

Seasoned Warrior: At 4th level, a fighter gains a +2 bonus on opposed Strength checks against opponents that are larger than him. At 8th level this bonus increases to +4. At 12th level this bonus increases to +8.

Spoiler

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Synergy with the dungeoncrasher ability. Other than that its just a nice bonus because later in the game monsters get way to big to really use bullrush or tripping and the like with their massive size bonuses.

Intuitive: At 5th level, a fighter has the experience to better understands his feats. He gains a +1 bonus to numerical feats gained from hit dice. This bonus increases by 1 every 5 levels, to +2 at 10th level, +3 at 15th level and +4 at 20th level. This bonus only applies to feats that only grant numerical bonuses such as iron will, negotiator, or improved initiative.

Spoiler

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This has several applications including turning Iron will into a decent feat for fighter. Also improved initiative becomes a lot better.

Hold Breath: A fighter can hold his breath for four times his constitution modifier before he risks drowning.

Party Aura: The fighter has seen battles and understands the necessity of working together. Beginning at 6th level he gains access to unique auras that grant him and his party bonuses. Projecting a combat aura is a swift action. The aura remains in effect until you dismiss it as a free action or until you activate a different combat aura.
Unless otherwise noted, your combat aura affects all allies (including yourself) within 60 feet who can hear you. Affected allies must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher and be able to understand your language. Your aura is dismissed if you are dazed, unconscious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard and understood by your allies.
A combat aura lets allies add +1 morale bonus to certain rolls. This bonus improves by 1 every six levels. At 6th level the fighter selects 1 aura and one additional aura ever three levels thereafter.

{table=head]Auras|Effect
Resilient Troops|Bonus on all saves.
Motivate Care|Bonus to Armor Class.
Hardy Soldiers|The fighter's allies gain damage reduction equal to the amount the aura provides.
Motivate Urgency|Allies' base land speed is increased by a number of feet equal to 5 x the amount of bonus the aura provides.
Motivate Ardor|Bonus on damage rolls.
Motivate Attack|Bonus on melee attack rolls.
Steady Hand|Bonus on ranged attack rolls.[/table]

Spoiler

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Marshal is no longer a class in my CS so this fills the gap there. Also its a nice thing to add to a fighter. Also seems in character, a fighter knows combat and battles and as such would be able to direct his allies such that they could gain these benefits.

Shake it Off: At 8th level, the fighter gains the ability to shake off various impeding effects. As a full round action, a fighter can attempt remove one of the following effects: blind, confused, dazzled, deaf, exhausted, fatigued, shaken, or sickened. To remove the effect, the fighter is allowed to roll another saving throw, at the original DC of the effect.
If the effect was caused by a spell that did not allow a saving throw, the fighter may attempt a Fort save against a normal DC for a spell or spell-like ability of that level. Any other condition that does not allow a save cannot be removed with this ability.

Spoiler

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I wanted an ability like this and before I had the time to come up with one I found this one from here

Mettle: At 9th level if the fighter makes a successful Fortitude or Will saving throw against an attack that normally have a lesser effect on a successful save, he instead completely negates the effect. A helpless fighter does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Swift Warrior: At 10th level the fighter gains the ability to make a full-attack on his turn with as a standard action. A fighter cannot make more than one full-attack as a standard action per round.

Spoiler

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A unique ability for the fighter and I think it is a nice boost to a single classing fighter

Steadfast Grip At 11th level the fighter has trained with weapons enough to wield them with true definition and power. He may wield a weapon in one hand and treat it as if being wielded two-handed for the purpose of damage.

Spoiler

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Poached from WoW but I when I heard of it it really sounded cool and stuck me as something I should have already thought of. I really want to promote the use of shields and this would help with that. Or you could two-weapon fighting with greatswords.

Improved Shake it Off: At 13th level, a fighter can use shake it off to remove one of the following effects: cowering, dazed, fascinated, frightened, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, and stunned.* A fighter may use this ability even if he is unable to take a full round action.

[ddude987]

I'll use this one for a change log.

I'll also be constantly OPing this thread so should have quick response time on posts :)

Change Log

Spoiler

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-Updated wording on Battle Ready
-Added perform (weapon drill) to skills list
-Fixed wording on Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization
-Merged melee and ranged weapon mastery
-Changed detect thoughts on leader to mind blank.
-Reworded swift fighter to only apply on your turn
-Changed seasoned warrior to apply to all creatures larger from level 4.
-Seasoned warrior bonuses updated to +2, +4, +8
-Rolled some abilities in the combat specialist table together
-Reworded combat specialist table into third person as well as improved overall clerity
-Swift Warrior moved to 10th level
-added /improved/ shake it off
-changed party aura bonus to progress indefinatley
-changed wording on intuitive to incorporate progression in epic levels
-added hold breath at level 6
-added the known class feature

[ngilop]

this is a pretty sweet re-vamp.

my sole complaint

you need to give the fighter the swift warrior ability WAYY before 16th levle, preferable by 10th, if not sooner.

[ddude987]

this is a pretty sweet re-vamp.

my sole complaint

you need to give the fighter the swift warrior ability WAYY before 16th levle, preferable by 10th, if not sooner.

You don't think it will be to powerful that early?

[ngilop]

not in the least.

considering that a wizard cna morph into some 6 attack hacing monstrosity at 10th level, A fighter needs an edge

in my own world fighters get that at 7th and I have yet for anybody to say 'thats too poweful' after all with the class name being Fighter, shoudln't they know the best way to put hurt on people?

[ddude987]

not in the least.

considering that a wizard cna morph into some 6 attack hacing monstrosity at 10th level, A fighter needs an edge

in my own world fighters get that at 7th and I have yet for anybody to say 'thats too poweful' after all with the class name being Fighter, shoudln't they know the best way to put hurt on people?

Okay I will consider the change. Thank you for your input. Do you have anything else to add?

[Draken]

Just a few things.

1. In Battle Ready 'rounded down' is not necessary. That is a default assumption.

2. Baseline skill list could probably use some more items, including Perform (Weapon Drill).

3. Detect Thoughts as the 18th level ability of the Leader is... Not really in theme and not as useful as the other two. Perhaps Mass Suggestion or Mind Blank would fit better.

4. How about a Commando Aspect for stealth fighters?

Besides those, it is pretty nice, but could use a few more non-combat things. Perhaps ways to apply of the principles of warfare to non-violent encounters. That is one thing people never really think to make. Fighters apparently only know one front of battle, not all of them.

[Xervous]

The whole combat specialist chart is needlessly confusing. Instead of saying "this bonus stacks with all previous ones", just put "Your bonus improves to +X" to save on the headaches of adding up stuff that will ALWAYS come out the same.

[ddude987]

Just a few things.

1. In Battle Ready 'rounded down' is not necessary. That is a default assumption.

2. Baseline skill list could probably use some more items, including Perform (Weapon Drill).

Fixed battle ready and will add perform (weapon drill).

3. Detect Thoughts as the 18th level ability of the Leader is... Not really in theme and not as useful as the other two. Perhaps Mass Suggestion or Mind Blank would fit better.

I think mass suggestion is more appropriate than mind blank. How often should he be able to use mass suggestion?

4. How about a Commando Aspect for stealth fighters?

Not sure if it really fits the theme. As of right now there is an aspect for each physical stat that relates each mental stat to a physical one. I would have to drop a current one. Also stealth isn't really a soldiers thing.

Besides those, it is pretty nice, but could use a few more non-combat things. Perhaps ways to apply of the principles of warfare to non-violent encounters. That is one thing people never really think to make. Fighters apparently only know one front of battle, not all of them.

Any suggestions as to non-violent parts of warfare?

The whole combat specialist chart is needlessly confusing. Instead of saying "this bonus stacks with all previous ones", just put "Your bonus improves to +X" to save on the headaches of adding up stuff that will ALWAYS come out the same.

All fixed! Thanks.


Thanks for the suggestions everyone!

edit: I guess now that I am reviewing this, there really isn't to much non combat stuff he can do, which my goal was to give him lots of non-combat stuff. I failed to do that. He can act as a not optimal but decent party face, and he can be the knowledge junkie to an extent.

edit: edit: Also I am still debating moving swift warrior to an earlier level. Does anybody else second (or third I guess because I support it too) this?

[Xervous]

Again, the chart is not as simplified as it could be.

melee and ranged weapon mastery do EXACTLY the same thing, with the second just adding +20 to the weapon's range. Also, those bonuses will ALWAYS be applying at the same time the others are, because they are based off the same condition "Using the selected weapon"

so... combine the melee/ranged masteries into one chart row, note the appropriate + to hit and + to damage, and tack on the "if its a ranged weapon it gets + 20 to its range increments"

[ddude987]

Again, the chart is not as simplified as it could be.

melee and ranged weapon mastery do EXACTLY the same thing, with the second just adding +20 to the weapon's range. Also, those bonuses will ALWAYS be applying at the same time the others are, because they are based off the same condition "Using the selected weapon"

so... combine the melee/ranged masteries into one chart row, note the appropriate + to hit and + to damage, and tack on the "if its a ranged weapon it gets + 20 to its range increments"

Fixed. I don't think there are any others that are very confusing.

edit: So I talked to a few friends and one of them stated that I was poaching to many abilities and that was a huge mistake and problem with this remake. Any thoughts on this in particular? THanks.

[ddude987]

I changed detect thoughts on the leader into mind blank, though I would rather it be mass suggestion. I'll have to think about that. I also want to redo the leaders first to abilities.
Also an ability I wanted to add was perhaps the strategist or somebody allowing allies to change through him. Perhaps that could be an aura instead. I think changing the basic auras into something more interesting would be nice.

[eftexar]

Definitely an improvement. I suggest allowing Tactical and Weapon Style feats to be allowed, in addition to Fighter feats, for the bonus feats.

[ddude987]

Definitely an improvement. I suggest allowing Tactical and Weapon Style feats to be allowed, in addition to Fighter feats, for the bonus feats.

Hmmm I like that idea!
Do you think it would be a good idea to include 3 level or so long prestiges for underused things like tower shield buffs, net and trident, or a few of the other things?

edit: Made some changes to swift warrior so it is on your turn only. Also changed seasoned warrior. See change log for full details.

[Yakk]

I would strip away much of those numerical bonuses. Especially piddly numeric bonuses that pretend to be worthy of a class feature.

Same thing with bonus feats -- they aren't a full on class feature. I'd leave them be at 1/2 levels, and give the fighter *other* features on those levels as well.

I don't like your MAD reduction abilities. If you are worried about MAD, just give the fighter attribute bonuses. Ie: Every 3 levels, the fighter gains an (ex) inherit bonus to str, dex and con and one mental stat.

So a level 20 fighter gets +6 str/dex/con and +6 to one mental stat. MAD mostly goes away.

I'd want fewer choices made at level 1 determining what happens at level 18. Just have abilities the player can pick. Key them off a mental stat if you want (with the above bonus to mental stats).

Your weapon mastery stuff is more numeric bonuses. I'd drop them and create interesting bonuses, and I would avoid restricting it to a single weapon (why restrict it?)

Non-numeric bonuses for "weapon mastery" type stuff:
Double-rolls on weapon attacks (take the best).
Defensive parries and blocks (opposed attack rolls).
Bypassing miss chances somehow.
Weapon-type specific features you gain.
D&D.next style "extra weapon damage dice".

---

When picking class abilities, pay attention to the scale of the level in question, and make low level abilities scale. A level 3 ability might be "you gain +1 to str, dex, con and a mental ability of your choice every 3 levels" -- this does not take up the level 6, 9, 12, 15 or 18 "gain a class ability" slot. Those levels gain new toys that are worthy of the level in question.

A level 18 ability should be on similar scale to "cast a 9th level spell once per day". There is lots of room for really powerful abilities. 19th should be yet another ability on the same scale. And then level 20 should be even better.

Abilities like "Driving Attack" are way too specific. Maybe if you had a menu of abilities that Fighter's could learn from (ie, they gain knowledge of 2 abilities per level, and can learn more of them by training) such an ability would fit in -- but as a relatively fixed class feature? Meh. Plus it doesn't look much like a level 7 class ability -- I mean, how does it compare with Plane Shift, Force Cage (no save, just lose), or Waves of Exhaustion (no save, just suck)?

Being able to do any one of a disarm, sunder, bull rush, or trip as a free action once per round that does not provoke an AoO -- that is almost generic enough to be a class ability. At a modest level.

[ddude987]

I would strip away much of those numerical bonuses. Especially piddly numeric bonuses that pretend to be worthy of a class feature.

Same thing with bonus feats -- they aren't a full on class feature. I'd leave them be at 1/2 levels, and give the fighter *other* features on those levels as well.

I don't like your MAD reduction abilities. If you are worried about MAD, just give the fighter attribute bonuses. Ie: Every 3 levels, the fighter gains an (ex) inherit bonus to str, dex and con and one mental stat.

So a level 20 fighter gets +6 str/dex/con and +6 to one mental stat. MAD mostly goes away.

I'd want fewer choices made at level 1 determining what happens at level 18. Just have abilities the player can pick. Key them off a mental stat if you want (with the above bonus to mental stats).

Your weapon mastery stuff is more numeric bonuses. I'd drop them and create interesting bonuses, and I would avoid restricting it to a single weapon (why restrict it?)

Non-numeric bonuses for "weapon mastery" type stuff:
Double-rolls on weapon attacks (take the best).
Defensive parries and blocks (opposed attack rolls).
Bypassing miss chances somehow.
Weapon-type specific features you gain.
D&D.next style "extra weapon damage dice".

---

When picking class abilities, pay attention to the scale of the level in question, and make low level abilities scale. A level 3 ability might be "you gain +1 to str, dex, con and a mental ability of your choice every 3 levels" -- this does not take up the level 6, 9, 12, 15 or 18 "gain a class ability" slot. Those levels gain new toys that are worthy of the level in question.

A level 18 ability should be on similar scale to "cast a 9th level spell once per day". There is lots of room for really powerful abilities. 19th should be yet another ability on the same scale. And then level 20 should be even better.

Abilities like "Driving Attack" are way too specific. Maybe if you had a menu of abilities that Fighter's could learn from (ie, they gain knowledge of 2 abilities per level, and can learn more of them by training) such an ability would fit in -- but as a relatively fixed class feature? Meh. Plus it doesn't look much like a level 7 class ability -- I mean, how does it compare with Plane Shift, Force Cage (no save, just lose), or Waves of Exhaustion (no save, just suck)?

Being able to do any one of a disarm, sunder, bull rush, or trip as a free action once per round that does not provoke an AoO -- that is almost generic enough to be a class ability. At a modest level.

I am in agreement that fighter should be gaining some more interesting abilities at higher levels. I am not in agreement with anything else you have said.

Those "piddly" numeric bonuses add up. Also things like "driving attack" do not need to be fixed. You ARE aware that driving attack is a feat? Removing it from the game as a feat and giving it to fighter as a class feature doesn't mean it should be buffed or changed in any way.

Giving fighter free stat bonuses to physical stats doesn't help reduce his MAD, it simply inflates his ability scores to make it seem like MAD does not hurt him.

[wayfare]

I am in agreement that fighter should be gaining some more interesting abilities at higher levels. I am not in agreement with anything else you have said.

Those "piddly" numeric bonuses add up. Also things like "driving attack" do not need to be fixed. You ARE aware that driving attack is a feat? Removing it from the game as a feat and giving it to fighter as a class feature doesn't mean it should be buffed or changed in any way.

Giving fighter free stat bonuses to physical stats doesn't help reduce his MAD, it simply inflates his ability scores to make it seem like MAD does not hurt him.

Stacking bonuses are well hated here -- my fighter fix had the same constant complaint.

Here's the logic -- you are essentially "wasting" space by granting numeric bonuses that accumulate, when you could just grant one big bonus and only use one class feature. People feel that this is especially necessary with classes like the fighter that don't get too much utility beyond hitting things and dealing damage.

I like stacking bonuses, as they indicate an increase in skill. What might be the bast way to do them is to create an additional column where bonuses accrue -- call it something like COMBAT EDGE, then have several abilities play off that combat edge. Like one ability might add combat edge to grapple checks, while another might add it to crit confirmation rolls.

Just my 2 cp. I like the execution so far, and wish you continued inspiration!

[ddude987]

Stacking bonuses are well hated here -- my fighter fix had the same constant complaint.

Here's the logic -- you are essentially "wasting" space by granting numeric bonuses that accumulate, when you could just grant one big bonus and only use one class feature. People feel that this is especially necessary with classes like the fighter that don't get too much utility beyond hitting things and dealing damage.

I like stacking bonuses, as they indicate an increase in skill. What might be the bast way to do them is to create an additional column where bonuses accrue -- call it something like COMBAT EDGE, then have several abilities play off that combat edge. Like one ability might add combat edge to grapple checks, while another might add it to crit confirmation rolls.

Just my 2 cp. I like the execution so far, and wish you continued inspiration!

Hmm I like the idea. Why are accumulating bonuses so hated? I guess one bonus is nice but then it'll be to strong or to late.
I like the idea of combat edge.

Any ideas for out of combat abilities for a fighter?

[Xervous]

People whine about accumulating bonuses because the "grants + N per X levels" does it better most of the time.

[Yakk]

Depending on multiple attributes is not a disorder if it doesn't hurt you. Rather than "you can use physical attributes as mental attributes" just so you don't suffer MAD, granting bonuses to your physical and mental attributes solves that problem *and* stretches credibility less. (I mean, doesn't it make sense that someone dedicated to personal improvement might, as part of their training, get stronger/faster/tougher/smarter? In comparison, being able to use your muscles to make knowledge checks seems less reasonable...)

Granting some specific, narrow-purpose feat, as a class feature, is a pretty crappy class feature. Can you imagine the feat "you can cast a 9th level wizard spell of your choice once per day"? Imagine how good that would be? Even if you had to give up 3 HP and half a point of BaB to take the feat?

Class features you gain from gaining a level should be better than feats, except possibly at level 1.

Granting a piddly bonus (+1 in some specific circumstance) as if it was a significant class feature is a pretty crappy class feature. Even if it stacks with other piddly bonuses you get at other levels for class features.

[Xervous]

There are more than a few good cases of one ability score standing in for another with regards to certain situations.

IIRC there is a feat for STR to intimidate, though STR to CHA is a little odd for my tastes here given the lack of flavor. Numerous save replacers exists, and there is even material that lets you cast as a sorcerer based off CON. Factotum gets INT on top of STR and DEX, Illumians can switch what stat determines their bonus spells (Strongarm family casts more spells with bigger muscle mass!!!)

Boosting ability scores does not solve MAD, it just bandaids it by effectively raising the character's point buy value.

And I'll say again, if you are listing a bonus that increases over multiple levels, just make it a +N/X level thing and be done with the bloated table. How many Shouts do I need to cast at it to shake off the excess clutter? Is it resistant to sonic damage?

[ddude987]

Added a new ability that allows the Fighter to shrug off CC. I think Fighters should be able to do that.

Fixed the table. Also updated several abilities to allow for epic level progression of the.

Still trying to think of ideas for noncombat related things the Fighter can do. Any input on this subject?

[ngilop]

I have two suggestion for out of combat abilities.

Give him a way to create magical weapons and armors.
Make it so they are not bad, but at the same time not the best items one could craft.

for example instead of like normla having a +10 combined item ( like a +4 Keen, shocking burst, trident of speed). at 20th level. A fighter could craft say +7 (so it would be a +4 keen shocking burst trident) still pretty good, but not as good as if an actual magical crafter made it

Also according to the fighter fluff they are supposed to be some kind of leaders amongst men. So give then some kind of leadership based abilities that are usefull outside as well as in combat, much like some of the bardic inspires or marshal auras

[ddude987]

Hmmm I like that. I already have him gaining some auras. Perhaps I'll give him a few that boost other things such as ability checks, social encounters, etc...

As for the crafting that seems interesting. I wonder, should he be able to craft for only himself or for other people as well?

[Vellus]

The fighter fix is well done. It looks balanced. I do say you should include abilities from levels 11-20 where the fighter only gets a bonus feat or a preexisting ability improves.

How would you flavor the fighter being able to craft his own magical weapons?
Also it needs some more out of combat things. In terms of raw damage output I would think a Barbarian still does more so it needs something that separates it from just being a bit meat head.

[ddude987]

I added a new ability. Wielding weapons in one hand and treating them as two handed for damage.

[Ornemus]

Hey, this one is pretty good of a fighter!

ASPECT : I tried some homebrews myself, but I only considered the "strategist" point of view. The two others are interesting, and I think you should develop them a bit.

Reducing MAD the way you do is surprising, but why not. Try " INT(WIS,CHA)-based class-skills checks", and not every skill checks : it would make more sense. But my opinion is : let's have a strategist with a high INT score ! It will make him more useful out of the battlefield, as you want. To reduce MAD ? Let's add a few abilities to each aspect, based on the appropriate caracteristic modifier. For example, a strategist could add his INT modifier to AC, beginning at 4th level, something like that. With this, and the bonuses to att/dmg you give with weapon specialisation, you could imagine a fighter with only a medium STR score.

The Improved morale ability is not clear : you are talking about the auras from the party aura ability, isn't it ? The reference should be explicit.

COMBAT SPECIALIST : Compilating the existing feats into one class ability is really the best thing to do : simple for everyone, elegent, clear the path for the new class abilities needed. Remarks : it lacks a lvl1 ability, and weapon mastery had been struk when you melted twe previous two. Improvings ? Perhaps you should call it "weapon specialist". And, I always been defiant with the "one-hour training to swift" thing. Adding my homebrew to this one would be : " At level 1, you gain the weapon focus feat as a bonus feat. The Weapon specialist ability applies to each weapon for which you have the weapon focus feat". See ? You don't forget everything you've learned with a weapon, but you still can apply the bonuses to a new weapon if needed, it just cost one feat.

It lacks an ARMOR SPECIALIST ability, just like the pathfinder's one. Something like : every four levels, the AC bonus of every armor and shield you wear increases by 1, and so does the maximum AC Dex bonus of your armor. At the same time, the checks penalties are reduced by one. Feel free to adapt such that it fits nice in your fighter table, but I think this is a really good idea.

Battle ready, dungeon crasher : OK, sweet.

Seasoned warrior : typos in your text, either OK. It should extend to every special attacks like bull rush, disarm, sunder and the like. If you do, make sure it does not allow you to get a +4 bonus instead of a -4 malus if the opponent is only one size bigger than you : it would be a little too much.

HOLD BREATH : you should not give it at a class feature. Too specific, in my opinion. It should be a feat, no more. A bonus fighter feat, perhaps ?

THE REST : is just nice. Shake it off and steadfast grip was just the ideas I was looking for. You fighter still lacks some really strong abilities at high level.


My own work developped the idea of getting +INT immediate action in a round and use it to make AOO, 5-foot move, block the foes AOO / attacks, etc. At level 20, I allows the fighter to take his actions for the turn at every initiative score he wants after his own. It means that he does not need to pepare an action, since he just cans spare his turn for the right moment, and still keep his high initiative score for the next round. What do you think about adaptating these ones for your fighter?

My last word : thank you for your work ! I will keep an eye on it, sure.

[Xervous]

An old fighter rework contained within. Check for other ideas that may work...

One interesting tidbit that stands out is Surprise lunge, though it doesn't clearly fit into any of the archetypes here.

Also, Fighter Archetypes.

[Yakk]

Leadership:
Bard-like skill check boosts from Inspiration. You'd be able to grant your fellow party members significant bonuses on their skill checks, which isn't horrible utility.

When you do someone a favour (say, complete a quest, or whatever) for someone, Loyalty effects (Ex, mind-effecting) on both them and those that are loyal to them. Done right, by doing favours to help out a king, you could end up with the king's loyal subjects being more loyal to you than to the king!

Organizational abilities, that means you can recruit and inspire people to lead others. Run a castle or a farming community, start a research project, hold the line against orcs as you go off and kill Sauron. As you gain levels, you should be able to defeat the foes that attempt to destroy a community, instinctively find someone to take over the community, then that pick should end up being both a loyal and competent governor for that community (unless you fail some check).

I could see a Fighter class with abilities like the above being able to keep up in world-impact to a wizard up to at least 10th level. While the wizard would start being able to teleport and planeshift, imagine if by 10th level almost every community you saved was run by competent, loyal leaders, and willing to do what you asked.

Throw in something like the Solar tiger warrior training technique (where a fighter can rapidly grant warrior levels to people he trains, so long as the target's ECL stays at least K levels below the fighter.

And more directly, lower level troops "led" by a fighter might get something like temporary warrior levels -- maybe a bit simplified (ie, no picking feats! and a simple inspiration bonus to trained skills).

A level 10 fighter might be able to in a week increase the level of a dozen peasants to warrior 5, and then grant 4 "temporary warrior levels" (+4 enhancement bonus to hit, +4 competence bonus to skill checks (but no more than half your skill levels), +4 enhancement bonus to damage, +3 enhancement bonus to armor, +3 enhancement bonus to shields, 20 temporary HP refreshed by a 1 minute speech).

That might be too much bookkeeping, but it would be a powerful force-multiplication ability.