E2: Workable?

[137beth]

So, E6 is touted for expanding upon the heroic tier (roughly levels 6-10, since E6 characters get around the power of 8th level characters). But what if we want a lower power level? A lot of iconic monsters have challenge ratings under six. There are also a ton of stats for animals and vermin that are rarely used past level three. So what would people think of an E2/P2 game?

Most classes get several of their iconic powers by second level: the monk and rogue both get evasion at 2nd level, while starting with sneak attack and flurry of blows, respectively. The 2nd level ranger gets its iconic combat style. The paladin gets most of its most iconic abilities (detect/smite evil, aura, divine grace and lay on hands). The bard can cast 1st level spells (assuming a high charisma, which is perfectly attainable with 32-point buy) and has three songs. The wizard and sorcerer can each cast 4 first-level spells per day (if the wizard specializes), and have their familiars (I think that an E2 game should probably follow pathfinder's lead and make cantrips at-will). If you start with 32 point buy to help MAD classes, and make cantrips at-will, the only core class which seems to present a serious balance issue is the ever-powerful druid, as an animal companion at second level could pretty much fill the role of a frontliner.
As with E6, a lot of feats should be made available, it shouldn't be too hard to homebrew-as-you-go feats for an E2 game.
I feel like E1 wouldn't work too well, since a lot of classes aren't very well defined/separated at first level. Also, I'd like multi-classing to at least be an option, if only for one level. E2 seems like a nice point. With extra feats, and particularly feats written for an E2 game, power should level off at what would be around level 4ish in a normal game.
So what do people think?


(I should probably note that I have never played E6/P6. I enjoy both low-powered and very-high-powered games--I have enjoyed playing in the ECL 30-40 range, and playing from level 1, and in other systems which are intended for low power ranges...it's those middle levels that I have the least experience with missed the most of)

EDIT: This was just an idea that randomly popped into my head a few hours ago...

[BowStreetRunner]

One element of E6 you should take into account is the power curve with regard to the different tier classes. Wizards start out squishy and grow exponentially more powerful. Fighters start out relatively strong but tend to fade out at high levels. The original design of E6 was intended to catch all of the classes at a point of relative balance. Too much higher and the spellcasters dominate again. Too much lower and the martial characters trump all.

[ArcturusV]

I'd use 3 as a cut off point. 2nd level magic for pure casters other than Sorcerer Progression. Sorcerers get a lot more spells of first level. First level spells still being effective presuming you're not throwing 7-8 HD enemies at people.

Might be a good point to work with. Fighters and such will be just robust enough not to be subjected to Lucky Crits knocking them into negatives with a single tap.

[Flickerdart]

The thing about E6 is that characters remain capable of fighting stronger monsters - they can't take more than a few hits, but they can still get in deep if they've thought things through beforehand. Even if they've got no extra feats, a 6th level party can reliably take on a 10th level threat and expect to come out on top if they've their wits about them.

At level 2, fighting a CR6 creature? Dead. Even the tankiest barbarian has maybe 20 Constitution, which gives him 31 hit points on average. That's three hits from a Gray Render Zombie (which has 133 HP, decent AC and DR) or one and a half rounds with an Ettin. A Digester's AoE puts this guy at half health (let's not kid ourselves about the kind of Reflex save bonus a 2nd level Barbarian has). The typical character with a d8 hit die and maybe 14 Con has less than half of this barbarian's HP, and dies in one hit from any of these things.

Level twos simply can't fight the same range of things that level sixes can. You can't go down, either - while sixes have the resources to take on groups of weaker enemies, sending anything in groups against twos buries them in a sea of lucky 20s, because they're still in the range where that's a threat. Advancing monsters? Not possible either.

Finally, WotC's unreasonable love of daily uses rears its ugly head. If you want to play a fearsome berserker, you can...once a day. A valiant warrior poet? Twice a day. A seeker of arcane mysteries? You can play your character as you envision him four whole times per day before you have a commoner with a rat.

It's an interesting optimization challenge, sure, but it's one people are going to be solving with Color Sprays and scythes at the low end, and laddering up with Domain Wizard at the high.

If you want a game with a low power level, play a low-level game. But freezing people at those levels means they are going to progress by ramping up their optimization rather than the normal way, and that gets ugly fast.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

So, it could work. High tier casters are just fine at level 2.

Possible issues.

Mundane classes are too alike. At +5 feats two levels won't differentiate enough between classes.

Low HP, a E6 melee has say 14-18 less hp about 25% less than a normal level 8 which makes it fine for him to take a hit or two from most CR 8s. A lot of CR 4's will just squish an E2 melee. Triple max hp at level 1 would go a long way to fixing this.

Not really a "problem" but iconic low CR monsters remain threatening in E6 already.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would apply the Armor as DR and Vitality Point system. This would go a long way to making fighters and barbarians a lot less squishy at low levels. Rocking DR 4/- at second level is a big deal. Getting vitality points on top of your con score of wound points makes hurting characters to death a lot harder.

Plus with a good con score (+3), a good fort save (+3), great fortitude (+3), and a +1 cloak, you are looking at passing the save VS death 75% of the time. Much less instantly lethal for a world without resurrection magic.

Then maybe the spell point system to give casters a bit of a boost. Give them a feat that grants more spell points each day and be free with pearls of power.

There are problems though...

BAB is near meaningless. The cleric is a little god, and saves are everything. Monk would be a hard cookie to beat.

[Kaeso]

I guess E2 could be workable depending on the "power level" you want to play at. The logic behind E6 is that most of us normal humans are stuck at around level 1 or 2. Levels 3 or 4 are extraordinary like the neighbours son who can fold himself into a pretzel or that guy in class who runs far faster than everyone else, or a professor. Level 5 could be considered olympic level and level 6 is legendary. Men in our "real world" who would be considered level 6 are men like Homer, Napoleon, Louis Cyr etc. If somebody was good enough at something to be written down in the history books, chances are he was level 5 or 6 by DnD logic.

That said, E2 could be workable, as long as you keep in mind that those guys aren't dungeon crawling heroes. They're just a bunch of guys who picked up a sword and are now swinging it around desperately. They may be very good at it, but they're not much stronger than your average town guard. A campaign on that power level could be interesting, if DM'd right.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart
Level twos simply can't fight the same range of things that level sixes can.

...Pretty much by definition, but I think the OP had something else in mind:

Originally Posted by 137ben
There are also a ton of stats for animals and vermin that are rarely used past level three.

There are a lot of very low-level creatures which can be fun and interesting opponents in their own right, which most groups all too quickly leave behind. A single taer becomes a memorable encounter; and something creepy and CR2, like a bloodsilk spider, could be the centerpiece of a campaign segment rather than a mild diversion on the way to a plot point.

This approach could work well for a wilderness campaign, one that focused more on surviving a difficult journey by grit and ingenuity, rather than stopping a generic orc horde or whatnot. I might go for E3 instead of E2, simply because that feels more complete to me, a bit of an homage to the first-edition three-level approach. That's what I started with, so three levels would feel like old times.

[JusticeZero]

Another thing you can do is E1 with an expanded class abilities. (Everyone is level 1, but you get level 2, maybe even 3, class specials.."
ANy way you slice it, it will be a very low powered, lethal game with a high body count. That is exactly what many people enjoy, so I wont say that is a bad thing per se. But it's not something i'm a fan of.

[Flickerdart]

...Pretty much by definition, but I think the OP had something else in mind:



There are a lot of very low-level creatures which can be fun and interesting opponents in their own right, which most groups all too quickly leave behind.

So just use more of them, or advance them. It's not like monsters suddenly become unusable once you level past 2.

[137beth]

I'd use 3 as a cut off point. 2nd level magic for pure casters other than Sorcerer Progression. Sorcerers get a lot more spells of first level. First level spells still being effective presuming you're not throwing 7-8 HD enemies at people.

Might be a good point to work with. Fighters and such will be just robust enough not to be subjected to Lucky Crits knocking them into negatives with a single tap.

Yea, now that I think about it, 3rd level might make some more sense...

Level twos simply can't fight the same range of things that level sixes can.

Level sixes simply can't fight the same range of things that level 40s can. Duh.

Finally, WotC's unreasonable love of daily uses rears its ugly head. If you want to play a fearsome berserker, you can...once a day. A valiant warrior poet? Twice a day. A seeker of arcane mysteries? You can play your character as you envision him four whole times per day before you have a commoner with a rat.

That's why cantrips are at will. An E2/E3 game should probably give additional uses to some of the other abilities too (rage, for instance).

If you want a game with a low power level, play a low-level game.

And then the players level up...

But freezing people at those levels means they are going to progress by ramping up their optimization rather than the normal way, and that gets ugly fast.

Okay, now I'm curious. What makes you think that that phenomenon would be any different from an E6 game I thought the point of capping at a low level, but giving extra feats, was that players could continue to advance without their power skyrocketing.

Mundane classes are too alike. At +5 feats two levels won't differentiate enough between classes.

That could be an issue. Class-specific feats should take care of it, though.

I would apply the Armor as DR and Vitality Point system. This would go a long way to making fighters and barbarians a lot less squishy at low levels. Rocking DR 4/- at second level is a big deal. Getting vitality points on top of your con score of wound points makes hurting characters to death a lot harder.

That should help the mortality issue. A lot. Thanks.

Another thing you can do is E1 with an expanded class abilities. (Everyone is level 1, but you get level 2, maybe even 3, class specials.."

I'm not sure I'd like that, due to the extraordinarily low hp everyone would get, everyone would die too fast.

I'm starting to think E3 might be better overall--more diversity of classes, a bit wider range of appropriate challenges, and less insta-kills.

E3 would probably also work a lot better with classes designed for three-level play, possibly something in the vain of Gnorman's E6 compendium. Of course that's nothing new, normal 3.5 works a lot better with homebrew fixes for all (or almost all) the base classes. The difference is that there are already a lot of available fixes and alternatives for 20-level classes, and not much for 3-level ones.
Hmm, 3-level classes shouldn't be too hard to make. Maybe I'll start something...
(Also, flickerdart, I'm getting the a vibe that you just don't like the idea of house rules or homebrew...)

[Gavinfoxx]

Seeing as how the game starts at level 3 so you don't die to a lucky crit... no, no it is not workable in the least.

You could always be level 3 as far as hit dice go, and just start gestalting more and more classes and adding more and more feats and useful templates, perhaps?

[Emperor Tippy]

E4 is probably a far better choice if you want weaker D&D.

E2 is pretty much way too weak.

Best build would be Elan Psion with two flaws, Psionic Body, Elan Resilience (Enhanced), Hidden Power (Touch of Health), and Psionic Talent. Spend future feats on Earth Sense and Earth Power before pretty much just taking Psionic Talent constantly.

Every Psionic talent gets you n+1 additional PP (where n is the number of Psionic Talent feats that you already have) and +2 HP.

As an immediate action you can sped PP to reduce damage you take at a rate of 1 PP per 4 points of damage, and you can cast a 3 PP vigor for an additional 15 temp HP.


Now take Linked Power and Metapower: Linked Mind Thrust.

Every manifestation of Mind Thrust will (for no extra PP cost) trigger an augmented Synchronicity so that you get another full round of actions.

Metapower: Linked Synchronicity + Touch of Health is also nice.

---
Elan Psions dominate E6 for a reason.

Metapower Linked Mind Thrust + Bestow Power will let you manifest a non augmented Mind Thrust every round for no real PP cost.

Throw in Metapower Linked Bestow Power + Bestow Power + Earth Power and for 3 PP you gain 4 PP. You can refill your PP pool out of combat.

All kinds of fun.

[Gavinfoxx]

Could you do the same with an Elan Spell to Power Erudite?

[JusticeZero]

The idea that E1-2 is "too weak" is entirely a value judgement. Those levels are very lethal. As noted, SOME PEOPLE LIKE THAT. Also, you can boost class level features by feat or fiat.
Extra rounds of rage, more rage powers, etc are already addressable through feats, like Extra Rage.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, I guess everyone takes a few toughness type feats and diehard and the like, I suppose, and maxes con if they want their characters to live, not die randomly, and also if they want to not have four backup characters traveling with the adventuring party at all times!

Seriously. Low level games are way too swingy to spend any effort on the characters, if you will go up against anything with that could ever possibly deal over 20 damage on a crit, ever (like a completely normal orc, for example)!

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by JusticeZero
The idea that E1-2 is "too weak" is entirely a value judgement. Those levels are very lethal.

Very much agreed, and I think this could make for an interesting, enjoyable campaign. I'd definitely give it a try, especially an E3 version.

[Emperor Tippy]

Could you do the same with an Elan Spell to Power Erudite?

Yes, although you should ask your DM whether the power manifested by Linked Power counts as one of your Unique powers for the day, because if it does then you only have one real option in E2 and maybe 3-4 options in E6. Which kinda negates one of the Erudites biggest advantages.

[JusticeZero]

After some thought, I have to contradict myself and say that an E1 game will not be as lethal as thought. Death's Door is a flat pool of HP. The numbers people are throwing around in low levels are simply not very large. People will be DROPPING often, only to have the party stabilize them and pull them out of danger.

[Gavinfoxx]

After some thought, I have to contradict myself and say that an E1 game will not be as lethal as thought. Death's Door is a flat pool of HP. The numbers people are throwing around in low levels are simply not very large. People will be DROPPING often, only to have the party stabilize them and pull them out of danger.

Go look up how much damage a CR 1/2 Orc can do on a crit. Go, look it up...

[137beth]

Go look up how much damage a CR 1/2 Orc can do on a crit. Go, look it up...

Less than 14, which is the amount needed to kill a 10 con character with a d4 HD at level 1.

[ArcturusV]

You sure about that? Orc by MM block, nothing changed, deals 2d4+4 damage with a Falchion. A crit means it can deal 24 damage in a single strike.

Yes, that would be incredibly unlucky, but it can. And at level 1 that will kill anyone short of a Barbarian with high Con, possibly Raging (19 HP is basically the best case scenario in that case. Leaving it at -5 HP and bleeding out. And even then it's going to knock them into unconscious and bleeding with very little breathing room to stabilize. Course, the moment the rage ends, he'll be dying again even if he was stabilized due to losing the hit point he gained from Raging.

[Flickerdart]

It isn't terribly important if one hit from an orc can kill you or just knock you out. Your average orc deals 10.35 damage on a hit (factoring in criticals), which is enough to drop or disable anyone with a d6 or d4 hit die (since these guys tend not to max their CON) and most people with a d8 hit die (unless they put over 14 into CON which is rare). Every encounter becomes a TPK or an overwhelming victory, because now there is no margin for retreat, meaning that strategic complexity is suddenly curtailed because you can't come back with a better plan anymore.

[Kudaku]

Whatever you do I'd strongly suggest trying to keep it to E-even number. E3 heavily favors wizards over sorcerers, for instance.

Personally I think E4 might be the sweet spot if you find E6 too "powerful". E2 is, as others have mentioned, very swingy. Wizards and sorcerers are getting useful spells and aren't quite as limited by spell slots, fighters are looking at a decent HP pool etc.

Thing is that people often play Ex because they want that "gritty feel", but low level D&D isn't really gritty - it's just lethal. x3 Criticals means that pretty much any level 2 character is two unlucky rolls away from a dirt nap. Be prepared to go through characters fairly often if you want to keep the game at E2 for extended amount of times.

[Gavinfoxx]

Less than 14, which is the amount needed to kill a 10 con character with a d4 HD at level 1.

Nope, redo your math...

You sure about that? Orc by MM block, nothing changed, deals 2d4+4 damage with a Falchion. A crit means it can deal 24 damage in a single strike.

Yes, that would be incredibly unlucky, but it can. And at level 1 that will kill anyone short of a Barbarian with high Con, possibly Raging (19 HP is basically the best case scenario in that case. Leaving it at -5 HP and bleeding out. And even then it's going to knock them into unconscious and bleeding with very little breathing room to stabilize. Course, the moment the rage ends, he'll be dying again even if he was stabilized due to losing the hit point he gained from Raging.

Or just read this -- Arcturus has the right of it... that's why the game starts at level 3...

[137beth]

Nope, redo your math...



Or just read this -- Arcturus has the right of it... that's why the game starts at level 3...

I was not counting critical hits. This was intentional, just like you were intentionally not counting the possibility of a miss, or the possibility of dealing less than max damage.

It isn't terribly important if one hit from an orc can kill you or just knock you out. Your average orc deals 10.35 damage on a hit (factoring in criticals), which is enough to drop or disable anyone with a d6 or d4 hit die (since these guys tend not to max their CON) and most people with a d8 hit die (unless they put over 14 into CON which is rare). Every encounter becomes a TPK or an overwhelming victory, because now there is no margin for retreat, meaning that strategic complexity is suddenly curtailed because you can't come back with a better plan anymore.

Or you just grab your unconscious ally and run...
Fun facts:
1. I can hit you on the head with a hammer hard enough to at least knock you unconscious.
2. I am a lot weaker than the average orc.
3. A level 1-2 commoner is not much less durable than a level 1-2 wizard.
So if an orc didn't have the possibility (not garenteed, just the possibility) of knocking you unconscious in 1 hit, it would not be particularly realistic/gritty.
EDIT: I think of a critical hit as hitting a weak spot on someone's body. A critical hit with a spear might be stabbing you in the heart or neck. If you can survive that, you aren't in a low-power world like E2.

[Flickerdart]

1. I can hit you on the head with a hammer hard enough to at least knock you unconscious.

Knocking people out is a lot harder than Hollywood makes it seem.

[137beth]

Knocking people out is a lot harder than Hollywood makes it seem.

Who said anything about hollywood

The thing which appears to be missing from E2 is that the variance of "what it takes to knock someone out" is a lot bigger in real life than it is in-game. Yes, hitting someone on the head with a hammer could knock them unconscious. It won't always do it, though. On the other hand, it might give them a long-term issue, which it won't do in-game.

EDIT: Also, the fact that you responded to one sentence in my post with a largely irrelevant comment while ignoring the main points I raised is a decent indicator than you don't have any substantial response

[Flickerdart]

Given that the central evidence around which your point pivots is the claim you can easily knock people out in one blow, that's not irrelevant at all. Try again.

[137beth]

Given that the central evidence around which your point pivots is the claim you can easily knock people out in one blow, that's not irrelevant at all. Try again.

And how are movies connected to this Maybe I just haven't seen enough movies to understand you, but I can't really see how hollywood is connected to...anything.

(Oh, and that isn't even accurate,the central evidence around which I base my claims is that cutting/stabbing someone in the neck can kill them, which you failed to address in any capacity whatsoever).