Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

[thethird]

We could do a special round with no judging, just people voting and gentleman's agreement to not vote for oneself posting builds using ingredients of past editions.

Also... on being a battlemaiden I am a Techie actually, but I know of readied actions.

[T.G. Oskar]

Is it time for suggestions already?
Now, what would be a good ingredient?
Could it be that we see a repeat of
A race-specific class?
Read between the lines, good friends
Note the subtle suggestion, and
Understand that if it were the right one
My suggestion would be placed in a heartbeat!

...there's two choices, and only one is, IMO, ingredient-worthy. The other one is just too good. I leave it to you to figure out which, but I don't say much or else I lose the edge.

[123456789blaaa]

Is it time for suggestions already?
Now, what would be a good ingredient?
Could it be that we see a repeat of
A race-specific class?
Read between the lines, good friends
Note the subtle suggestion, and
Understand that if it were the right one
My suggestion would be placed in a heartbeat!

...there's two choices, and only one is, IMO, ingredient-worthy. The other one is just too good. I leave it to you to figure out which, but I don't say much or else I lose the edge.

Two choices for a potential future SI?

Also, do you think you might judge again in a future comp? I really enjoyed all of your judging's and while I understand that you were somewhat soured on judging the last time you judged, it would be really awesome if you judged again (I actually sent you a pm asking this. I dunno if you got it though). You were always very detailed and I liked that you suggested improvements.

[Vaz]

Master of Flies; Savage Species
Scaled Horror; Savage Species
Berserk; Deities and Demigods
Justicia of Taiia; Deities and Demigods
Soldier of Light; Deities and Demigods
Crimson Scourge; Cityscape
Wyrm Wizard; Dragon Magic
Darkrunner; Lords of Madness
Ashworm Dragon; Sandstorm
Scorpion Heritor; Sandstorm
Knight of the Iron Glacier; Frostfell
Defiant; Planar Handbook
Doomlord; Planar Handbook
Fatemaker; Planar Handbook
Visionary Seeker; Planar Handbook
Metamind; Expanded Psionics Handbook
Psion Uncarnate; Expanded Psionics Handbook
Flayerspawn Psychic; Complete Psionics
Soulbow; Complete Psionics
Zerth Cenobite; Complete Psionics
Great Rift Skyguard; Races of Faerun
Sun Soul Monk; Waterdeep
Slime Lord; Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Shapeshifter; Oriental Adventures
Shintao Monk; Oriental Adventures
Iaijutsu Master; Oriental Adventures
Knight of the Rose; Dragonlance Campaign Setting
Demonologist; Book of Vile Darkness
Disciple of Baalzebul; Book of Vile Darkness
Mortal Hunter; Book of Vile Darkness
Thrall of Demogorgon; Book of Vile Darkness
Thrall of Grazz't; Book of Vile Darkness
Thrall of Orcus; Book of Vile Darkness
Warrior of Darkness/Anointed Knight; Book of Vile Darkness/Book of Exalted Deeds
Beloved of Valarian; Book of Exalted Deeds
Skylord; Book of Exalted Deeds
Swanmay; Book of Exalted Deeds
Troubadour of the Stars; Book of Exalted Deeds
Totem Rager; Magic of Incarnum
Umbral Disciple; Magic of Incarnum
Shaper of Form; Dragon Compendium

From my lists of "favourite prestige classes". Removed the extremely high powered ones, I think, as well as the IC entries. Bolded for favourite favourites.

[Venger]

Is it time for suggestions already?
Now, what would be a good ingredient?
Could it be that we see a repeat of
A race-specific class?
Read between the lines, good friends
Note the subtle suggestion, and
Understand that if it were the right one
My suggestion would be placed in a heartbeat!

...there's two choices, and only one is, IMO, ingredient-worthy. The other one is just too good. I leave it to you to figure out which, but I don't say much or else I lose the edge.

since incarnum restricts us to 3 (realistically 2) methods of entry, I fear we would see little variety among dishes.

gnome giant slayer would be horrifying.

[Amphetryon]

Vaz has an interesting list.

IIRC, there's a trick - possibly there are a couple tricks - with Metamind that result(s) in infinite power points, which could make it unsuitable to this environment.

Ashworm Dragoon is a fun PrC that might be too popular/powerful (for a melee) to consider. . . but it is fun.

Shapeshifter. . . *shudder*. Similar concerns as with Master Transmogrifist, IMHO.

-2cp

[Haluesen]

Well I just went looking through a couple of books and I need to ask, has there ever been a wildrunner iron chef? I just really like the look of this class.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yeah, there's at least a half dozen suggestions on that list which will never make it as an SI while I'm chairing (including, as Amph deduced, Ashworm Dragoon and Metamind (especially because I can't stop thinking of Dominant Ideal Ardent 10/Metamind 10 with Practiced Manfester)).

And I'm totally with you there, Venger - I wanted to saddle you guys with Witchborn Binder, but the requirement of "meldshaper level 6th" is what killed it for me.

@Haluesen: There's links to all of the GitP Iron Chef Challenges in the OP (including naming the featured prestige class).

[Haluesen]

Alright I checked it, and RotW's Wildrunner is not there. But rather than just saying what I think is a cool class, can people tell me what traits make a good SI? I just know nothing too powerful. That's about it.

[Draz74]

And I'm totally with you there, Venger - I wanted to saddle you guys with Witchborn Binder, but the requirement of "meldshaper level 6th" is what killed it for me.

Hmmm, does meldshaper level have the same other-levels-count-half thing that Initiator Level in ToB has? I don't think so -- I think I'm just mixing it up with the rules for meldshaper level for Shape Soulmeld. But hey, at least non-incarnum classes could qualify for this PrC at Level 12? ...

Alright I checked it, and RotW's Wildrunner is not there. But rather than just saying what I think is a cool class, can people tell me what traits make a good SI? I just know nothing too powerful. That's about it.

The obvious ones you're missing are (1) is 10 levels long, and (2) hasn't already been used in an Iron Chef round.

There's also a concern about making them classes that are more open to qualifying for in a variety of ways, although some previous rounds have basically ignored that guideline anyway.

[Venger]

Alright I checked it, and RotW's Wildrunner is not there. But rather than just saying what I think is a cool class, can people tell me what traits make a good SI? I just know nothing too powerful. That's about it.

in addition to not being too powerful:

actual class features to progress are a must as well. if it doesn't give anything (ex: mystic theurge, eldritch knight only give casting) without class features, there's nothing for us to showcase.

also, various options to enter the SI must be present. if there's only one way to enter the class (ex: blighter requires you be a druid of 5th or higher level) then we can't possibly showcase our creativity in qualification.

there are other ways for a class to be overly restrictive to enter than just what classes you can enter as (feats, skills, etc may be restrictive too. ex: dungeon delver requires a jaw-dropping 60 skill points of a decidedly roguish bent to enter in addition to several junk feats, and trapfinding, making it an exceedingly poor choice for a secret ingredient.)

a "foothold" or something redeemable about the class that you can synergize with an external class, feat, template, something you can use to springboard into another class, etc. (ex. justiciar gives nonlethal sneak attack which stacks with sneak attack from other sources, its tracking abilities work with other tracking-oriented builds, etc)

it also really helps if the fluff text isn't extremely restrictive (ex: hand of the winged masters and drow judicator have a somewhat proscriptive hand in determining what your character's backstory will be about)

also, classes that have 1/day SLAs instead of class features tend to be very difficult to really build on (ex: drow judicator)

noncasting SIs give a greater variety in entry since you don't need to worry about caster levels or spells.

it has to be 10 levels, this is a rule. it can't be more since we'd have too much in common, and it can't be less since it wouldn't really be the focus at that point

Hmmm, does meldshaper level have the same other-levels-count-half thing that Initiator Level in ToB has? I don't think so -- I think I'm just mixing it up with the rules for meldshaper level for Shape Soulmeld. But hey, at least non-incarnum classes could qualify for this PrC at Level 12? ...

unfortunately, there is no such rule (though that's a delightful suggestion for a houserule) [/QUOTE]

[Haluesen]

Huh, thank you for all the information. All that said, I actually now really suggest wildrunner as a potential class. In basic it is 10 levels and hasn't been done yet.

I'm not sure how it rates as far as power but it does have quite a few interesting class features. Most of them are just interesting a bit but the primal scream is quite an interesting ability and gets a fair number of per day uses.

Entry is relatively simple. One feat (that I admittedly do not care for, but ah well), 4 skills, fairly lose alignment. The only thing is the required elf or half elf, but there are still a lot of ways to make that interesting too. All in all it leaves a lot to the imagination.

Though honestly, I am not sure what kind of synergy this class has with other things. No caster levels, good BA, okay skills, and primary class feature is mostly stand alone, though what it improves does leave some options. It is a class I can easily imagine being useful, unlike my previous entry where my use of the SI just wasn't essential.

And lastly the fluff is not restrictive at all, basically it is just "likes nature". Like druids but in a different way. All in all this class leaves a lot of choices for interesting dishes.

Ah but of course the last word on the matter is the chairman, this is well understood. Still was my little pitch too much? I tend to not like annoying others online sometimes.

[Amphetryon]

<various complaints about Drow Judicator>

So, you're saying I wasn't your favorite person that round?

[dysprosium]

I doubt Wildrunner would be next (or soon) since we have recently had Bladesinger which also has the elf/half elf requirement.

It does look like an interesting class though.

In other news, I can't wait for judging!

[Callin]

There have been 2 SI recently that was race based. The Bladesinger and Urban Soul. I honestly dont see us getting another one for a short bit.

[Venger]

Huh, thank you for all the information. All that said, I actually now really suggest wildrunner as a potential class. In basic it is 10 levels and hasn't been done yet.

I'm not sure how it rates as far as power but it does have quite a few interesting class features. Most of them are just interesting a bit but the primal scream is quite an interesting ability and gets a fair number of per day uses.

Entry is relatively simple. One feat (that I admittedly do not care for, but ah well), 4 skills, fairly lose alignment. The only thing is the required elf or half elf, but there are still a lot of ways to make that interesting too. All in all it leaves a lot to the imagination.

Though honestly, I am not sure what kind of synergy this class has with other things. No caster levels, good BA, okay skills, and primary class feature is mostly stand alone, though what it improves does leave some options. It is a class I can easily imagine being useful, unlike my previous entry where my use of the SI just wasn't essential.

And lastly the fluff is not restrictive at all, basically it is just "likes nature". Like druids but in a different way. All in all this class leaves a lot of choices for interesting dishes.

Ah but of course the last word on the matter is the chairman, this is well understood. Still was my little pitch too much? I tend to not like annoying others online sometimes.

you're quite welcome.

your pitch isn't over the top at all. in fact, it made me look up wildrunner (I couldn't remember its features and when I saw it was different from what I remembered, I realized I'd been confusing it with peregrine runner) and you know what? I think it's a pretty cool class for IC. I'd definitely be behind including it for the next SI.

So, you're saying I wasn't your favorite person that round?

I walked out with a bronze in the end, so it looks like you knew better than I did

[Piggy Knowles]

I absolutely loathed Initiate of Pistis Sophia while I was cooking, but I feel oddly tough after successfully building one. I wonder if this is how chefs who manage to serve fugu without killing anyone feel...

[Kuulvheysoon]

So, you're saying I wasn't your favorite person that round?

I certainly liked you that round, Amph.

I absolutely loathed Initiate of Pistis Sophia while I was cooking, but I feel oddly tough after successfully building one. I wonder if this is how chefs who manage to serve fugu without killing anyone feel...

Ugh. I hated IoPS.

[The Viscount]

I think everyone hated Initiate of Pistis Sophia.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Ok. You have me interested in that class. Give me a tick.


*Reads*


Ok. Wow. So, I'm actually laughing. I'm sorry, nothing can save that class. What were the writers doing? Eating one of Ozzy Osbourne's pot cakes?


For those that don't know, Ozzy once made a cake that was filled with pot. His wife accidentally gave it to a priest that knocked him out cold.

[nedz]

Wow, an improved Monk, which even makes use of their class skill of concentration.

[Piggy Knowles]

Also fun is that there's only really one or two ways to complete the class pre-epic. It requires a feat with Ki Strike (Lawful) as a pre-req, which you don't get until level 10, so unless you've got Vow of Poverty, you can't even qualify for the class until ECL 12. (Monk of the Enabled Hand gets it to you a tiny bit earlier, but that's it... pretty much every single entry used MotEH, VoP or both to get in.)

Gah, I'm getting annoyed just thinking about that one again!

[The Viscount]

Shh, no tears. Only dreams now.

[Haluesen]

I just took a look at the class, and the associated competition. And just...what?! I mean I know my op-fu is rather basic compared to some of the greats here, but even I see that class for what it is. Why would someone design such a thing? I wasn't even part of that competition and I am horrified! Poor poor contestants...

And then I watched that video. That both made my day and made me question life, the universe, and everything at the same time.

[FyreByrd]

I actually had a pretty good build idea for IoPS, but didn't get time to get it done, it was a much more tongue in cheek entry based on this

But the fact there were very few ways of qualifying for the PrC really did make it a pain, and I think I got discouraged from entering because I was pretty certain EVERYONE would use Monk of the Enabled Hand!

[Kuulvheysoon]

Any updates, judges? Only a few more days left.

[Callin]

Im sure they are close. They both said maybe friday. So its down to the wire!

[mattie_p]

Plugging away, chugging away, I think I can I think I can...

[Kazyan]

Only four more, Rolf!

[mattie_p]

Ahh, Kayzan caught up to me due to my trip! Blasted family responsibilities