A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #631
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    Sure

    {table=head] Rank |Build |First judge score |Second judge score |Average
    1st |The dead Mist |16.75 |13.75 |15.25
    1st |Vox Dracul |14.75 |15.75 |15.25
    3rd |Ornixen |15.5 |14.5 |15
    4th |Krumbalt |13.5 |15 |14.25
    5th |Leide Magora |12.5 |15.5 |14
    6th |Suspect 1 |15.75 |11.75 |13.75
    7th |Halyee Tsossysss |13.5 |13.5 |13.5
    8th |Firnesquis |12 |14.75 |13.375
    9th |Emrys |12.75 |13.25 |13
    10th |Wyrmlord Kranzon |10.5 |15.25 |12.875
    10th |Spyro |13.25 |12.5 |12.875
    12th |Sigismundo Celine |11.5 |14 |12.75
    12th |Zeddicus |12.5 |13 |12.75
    14th |Violet Ruskin |10.5 |14.75 |12.625
    15th |Doc D'oc |12.5 |12 |12.25
    16th |Lady Gray |11.75 |12.5 |12.125
    16th |The White Whale |12.25 |12 |12.125
    18th |Doraanar Gireen |11.25 |12.5 |11.875
    18th |Abrasa Kal |11.75 |11.5 |11.875
    20th |Tristyn R'yr |11 |12 |11.5
    20th |Aleksander |10.5 |12.5 |11.5
    22nd |Calsus |11.5 |10.5 |11
    23rd |Majeed Azar |8.25 |9.25 |8.75 [/table]
    Last edited by thethird; 2013-06-09 at 06:32 PM.
    Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)

  2. - Top - End - #632
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    Disputes - there's quite a number, so I'm extending the deadline by 24 hours.

    For Kayzan;
    Quote Originally Posted by Spyro
    Hi Kazyan, thanks for (one again) sticking your neck out to judge, I didn't envy this one at all.

    Just a couple of questions regarding me and Sparx; apparently we've got a bit of level 20 syndrome going on, and that we're a bit "party face" inclined, but outside of that, we're not particularly powerful.

    I'll admit we're a bit behind the curve with the full casters, and even theurges (which considering the typical progression of Arcane+Ur-Priest I was definately expecting to get pulled up on); the low Caster Level and the lack of high level spells means I'm not going to be full on Blasting until 20th level, but until that time, I'm still a Cleric (arguably with access to the domains available as a Steel Dragon due to DWoChronepsis); as such, any skill check that's not trained only I can make. I can scout reasonably well, thanks to Alternate Form allowing Humanoid/Animal Forms Medium size or Smaller (such as a Bat, or Skulk, specifically for Hide etc), and the Divine Skill Check boosters, for example.

    I focused on the SI abilities, because I thought that was what was needed and without going into too much of a ramble about the entire possibilities of Alternate Form abuse. I apologise for not making that obvious, but I'm not a one trick pony, and considering the difference in the points costs between the other Ur-Priest, it seems that it's a little "over-critical" to recieve such a low rating for the Power compared to the other, even if it gets an immense power boost (that arguably, very few other builds attained) at 20th. It certainly feels as if I've been penalised twice for having a 'kludge' of a build (which I admit was purely down to trying to make it all fit in once I'd got the recipe down).

    I'm not entirely sure of the comment regarding the "additional cheese"; that's the purpose of it; it's purely additional, and it's up to the judge of whether to include it or not. It's not as though it was required to make the build work, and being penalised for an optional extra... sounds a little bit of an odd idea to my mind.

    In regards to the UoSI, however; I admit I was unable to use the Senses (having exceeded them through entry) and that the Dominate Dragons etc was simply "oh I have a few Dragons to call allies". However, I did use the Frightful Presence in a meaninful manner, an utterly unique way, of where I turned it into a Calm Emotions aura; whether this was included in the Originality, I don't know, but emulating a bigger dragon to gain the fear aura and THEN turn it into something that normally ONLY older dragons have access to (or be stuck with a tiny range or DC) seems like UoSI more than just stitching it onto a build. In regards to the Bluff/Intimidate Bonuses, I agree they fell by the wayside in regards to the Spell Boosts (as I tried to maximise the checks to improve on their power).

    However, they wouldn't have been optimized had the SI not promoted optimizing them. Even without the spell or item boosts, I'm putting out a +30ish check, IIRC? Enough to get most bluffs through, and exceeding that of a standard ECL18-20; by party facing, this is actually using it, as opposed to just saying "oh and here's my check". I also use this check to attempt to lower saves for Dominate Dragon. Intimidate, not so much, obviously, but by the time you can maximise it to a similar level (with or without checks), people are either immune or subject to it anyway, becoming so Binary as to the numbers not really mattering all that much. Bluffs, not so much. The Dominate and Breath Weapons; I'm improving the DC, and capable of taking the form of a Creature with an Improved Constitution (a number escape me at the moment and have feats dedicated to increasing my ability to get my Dominate Dragon onto the target and through their save (through Bluff/Diplomacy etc).

    I am intrigued as to how to get more use out of Dominate Dragon than "What it says on the tin(TM)".

    Thanks for your time. If this comes out across as a little upset, don't worry. It's just that Sparx gets a little passionate about these things. Bye! Just off to visit our "old friend" Moneybags!

    PS. Seriously, cheers for the effort that went in.
    ------------------------------------------
    For mattie_p;
    Quote Originally Posted by Vox Dracul
    Woo! mattie_p thanks for judging! (I was worried we were going to have to send the rescue dogs for you and Kazyan, after you were buried under all those entries.)

    I do have a couple of disputes though:

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p
    I don't think the polymorph trick works, as polymorph doesn't change creature type (no penalty, warning).
    According to the last line of the first paragraph from the Polymorph spell description on the SRD, Polymorph does change the subjects type and subtype: "The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form."

    It's possible that there's an errata that changes that, but I thought the SRD was up to date with the errata. I know you didn't deduct points for it, I just wanted to clarify that I had method to my madness.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p
    Does not qualify for evangelist by alignment (Tiamat is LE), or changed alignment during leveling.
    As far as qualifying for Evangelist, Vox definitely qualifies. Evangelists have the same alignment restrictions as a cleric of their deity. The PHB and SRD cleric entry notes that "A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful–chaotic axis or the good–evil axis, but not both)." By my reading, that means that NE is a legit alignment for a cleric of Tiamat (one step away from LE), and thus an Evangelist of Tiamat.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p
    FP DC 25 +.25
    Lastly, I'm not sure how you were determining DC's, but assuming a character could utilize all the resources at their command (without counting items), Vox can hit DC 29 with his Frightful Presence (and Dominate Dragon) if he has his Nixie's Grace spell up (+8 Cha, among other benefits). That's why I chose that spell. Sorry I didn't make that clear in the writeup. If you were just counting base DC, then disregard this.

    Thanks for judging and putting up with my disputes!
    Quote Originally Posted by Emrys of Lludd
    Quote Originally Posted by mattpie_p
    Do not qualify for martial study at level 1 -.25 Nor for extra turning -.25 (swap Combat reflexes with martial study, and extra turning with empower spell, you would have been fine)
    My copy of Tome of Battle lists no prerequisites for Martial Study, so it's literally impossible not to qualify for it at 1st or any other level.

    Extra Turning requires the ability to turn or rebuke undead, per the SRD. Emrys takes Extra Turning at 6th level, at the same time he acquires the ability to rebuke undead from the 1st level of Death Delver.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeddicus
    Originality: 3.5

    Hexblade was not expected (as suboptimal), neither was blackguard +.5

    Power: 3.5

    4th level blackguard spells (baseline), 1st level hexblade spells (no adjustment), Fourth iterative attack for a gish, +.5 There is some fear stacking going on with hexblade curse + aura of despair + frightful presence + imperious command +.5 Not really seeing what 2 feats (shadow jaunt + sudden recovery) are doing for you -.5

    Elegance: 2.25

    You don't have the wisdom to cast any blackguard spells -.5 You do qualify for everything +.25 I really don't see the point in blackguard other than BAB. It ate three feats when you could have gone into Ajurant champion or something -.5

    Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5

    Breath DC 22 -.25, FP DC 23 is baseline, Intimidate check and bluff are high with supporting structure +.25 (hard to tell without listing final ranks), knowledge not used -.25, Dominate dragons is addressed +.25, Have enough ride ranks to make use of Dragonthrall +.25 Does feel like a Tot +.25
    Well first of all thank you for judging. Once again the judges were bombarded with an increasing number of entries and digesting them all is a feat in and of itself.

    That said, here are some explanations for the choices made:
    1) Hexblade is considered suboptimal but it allowed for early entry into the SI (which only one other competitor was able to do). I had hoped that counted for something. Also the dark companion should not be underestimated for its help in the debuffing and fear aura created.
    2) The martial study feats are for an escape route (and a second use of it) which were mentioned in the notes section.
    3) Yes the base stats are not good enough for Blackguard spells but that's what WBL is for. This was also mentioned in the notes.
    4) The choice of Blackguard was for primarily the aura of despair which is essential for the debuffing and fear aura created. You noted that in your scoring. Yes it also did give full BAB which was needed. Besides Abjurant Champion is a "known/expected" prestige class that would have done nothing for the build's debuffing schtick. It was avoided on purpose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majeed Azar

    The only real dispute I have is that according to this Manifester is Equal to Caster. So to me that allows ToT to increase my Manifester Level.

    Excerpt

    Manifester Level: The psionic equivalent of caster level. Your level in the class that gives you access to the particular psionic power you're manifesting. Most powers have variables, such as range or damage dealt, that depend on your manifester level. Your manifesterlevel also affects the power in a few other ways (for example, the maximum number of power points you can spend on the power [see Power Points, below]).
    If the judges still choose to not allow it all well.

  3. - Top - End - #633
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    Spyro:

    No problem. I don't want to take away any more gems than you deserve, you know.

    Paragraphs 3 and 4 are good points; I did not consider the exact potential of low-level cleric spells. Serves me right! +1.

    Regarding the additional cheese, I feel bad about it when you put it that way. Providing more options isn't a bad thing--it's the foundation upon which this game is build. So let's remove that little ding, too. +0.25.

    About Dispassionate Watcher's Calm Emotions Aura: I certainly noticed it, but I had trouble figuring out what it meant for the build. It's certainly unique, but what were you doing with it? Party-facing and making dragons you meet helpful, yes? I think I just totally forgot to mention it. Whoopsie. Um... +0.75, I think.

    The paragraph below that contains some good points, too, but I'm not sure how to adress and itemize each one individually. So let's give it another...my intuition tells me +0.5.

    Regarding Dominate Dragon usage, Ornixen figured it out--using dragons' Frightful PResences to power him u with Fearful Empowerment. I had my own idea, as well--dominate dragons and then use them to create a dragonflesh golem at higher levels. Incidentaly, you could also heal it with Tiamat's lightning breath.

    I seems to have very poorly judged you. Sorry about that, my purple friend.

  4. - Top - End - #634
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    extending the deadline by 24 hours.
    Curiosity is rampaging inside me

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    *Spyro corrections
    MODDOKH LIKES SPARKLY THING TOO. MODDOKH WANTS ONE. MODDOKH BURNS PURPLE ONE AND TAKES SPARKLY THING.

    Table updated.
    Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)

  5. - Top - End - #635
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    ...And one more for mattie_p -

    Quote Originally Posted by The White Whale
    Sudden strike is applied to enemies reduced to cowering by imperious command or rendered panicked, as cowering foes lose Dex to AC. A character who fails a swim check also loses Dex to AC (DMG 92) for when the White Whale knocks opponents into the water.

    Lion's charge is a 4th level ranger spell, and as such can be used to gain pounce. Sorry I neglected to mention that bit. While your suggested levels would indeed nab more BA, it loses 4th level spells. Also there isn't much to dungeoncrash with in the water. There's method behind my madness.

    As for casting 4th level spells, I assumed that a +4 item for wis would be available at level 17, at which point the cost is completely affordable. Barring this, the White Whale still knows the 4th level spells list, and as such can use wands and the like for it without any UMD checks.

    As for Darfellan having the aquatic subtype, while the racial summary doesn't list it, the racial summary also doesn't give Darfellan a type. Thus one must refer to the chart on page 34 which lists its type as Humanoid (aquatic).

  6. - Top - End - #636
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    Note: Score adjustments are in bold. I will update my original judging scoresheet as well. Please double-check my math and my edits, I've been looking at my spreadsheets for too long and I don't want to inadvertantly penalize anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vox Dracul
    Woo! mattie_p thanks for judging! (I was worried we were going to have to send the rescue dogs for you and Kazyan, after you were buried under all those entries.)

    I do have a couple of disputes though:

    According to the last line of the first paragraph from the Polymorph spell description on the SRD, Polymorph does change the subjects type and subtype: "The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form."

    It's possible that there's an errata that changes that, but I thought the SRD was up to date with the errata. I know you didn't deduct points for it, I just wanted to clarify that I had method to my madness.
    You are correct, I missed that line. Look, you read through about 50 rulebooks and do better! I'm kidding of course. Anyway. This is dangerously close to PAO shenanigans, for which I rewarded 0 points. You are correct, but I award no points anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vox Dracul
    As far as qualifying for Evangelist, Vox definitely qualifies. Evangelists have the same alignment restrictions as a cleric of their deity. The PHB and SRD cleric entry notes that "A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful–chaotic axis or the good–evil axis, but not both)." By my reading, that means that NE is a legit alignment for a cleric of Tiamat (one step away from LE), and thus an Evangelist of Tiamat.
    Point in your favor. I somehow read the prerequisite as must match the particular deity. You get back .25 points that were previously penalized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vox Dracul
    Lastly, I'm not sure how you were determining DC's, but assuming a character could utilize all the resources at their command (without counting items), Vox can hit DC 29 with his Frightful Presence (and Dominate Dragon) if he has his Nixie's Grace spell up (+8 Cha, among other benefits). That's why I chose that spell. Sorry I didn't make that clear in the writeup. If you were just counting base DC, then disregard this.

    Thanks for judging and putting up with my disputes!
    I made no accommodations in determining DCs of particular abilities for spells, items, or other temporary enhancements other than feats. Sorry.

    ---------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Emrys of Lludd
    My copy of Tome of Battle lists no prerequisites for Martial Study, so it's literally impossible not to qualify for it at 1st or any other level.
    True, however (and I spend a lot of time in the RAW Q/A thread, so my apologies)... Martial Study says
    Select any maneuver from the chosen discipline for which you meet the prerequisite.
    Tob, p44, has this to say about prerequisites:
    In addition to meeting the class and level requirements before you can learn a maneuver, you must meet a certain set of requirements to be able to choose that maneuver as one you know
    So now we look at your initiator level, as you have no martial initiator levels.

    Tob, p39:
    If you lack any martial adept levels, your initiator level is equal to 1/2 your character level.
    Finally, D&D rounding rules:
    Rounding Fractions
    In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger.
    So your initiator level is 0, meaning you don't qualify for a maneuver at level 1. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emrys of Lludd
    Extra Turning requires the ability to turn or rebuke undead, per the SRD. Emrys takes Extra Turning at 6th level, at the same time he acquires the ability to rebuke undead from the 1st level of Death Delver.
    This is a very technical nitpick, but I spend a lot of time in the RAW Q/A thread, so my apologies.

    The process of gaining a level is explained on pages 58-59 of the PHB. These steps are sequential, meaning you cannot do step 9 and then go back and do step 7. You select feats in step 7. The feat "Extra turning" requires

    Ability to turn or rebuke creatures.
    You don't get rebuke undead until until step 9 of level 3, which is after step 7.

    As I said, this is very technical, but I tried to be uniform to everybody with regards to qualifying for feats and such. For what it is worth, I had a very similar complaint from another competitor via pm, and I gave the exact same answer.

    ---------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeddicus
    Well first of all thank you for judging. Once again the judges were bombarded with an increasing number of entries and digesting them all is a feat in and of itself.

    That said, here are some explanations for the choices made:
    1) Hexblade is considered suboptimal but it allowed for early entry into the SI (which only one other competitor was able to do). I had hoped that counted for something. Also the dark companion should not be underestimated for its help in the debuffing and fear aura created.
    I gave no points for early qualification or entry. I don't believe my judging criteria I posted earlier indicated I would do so. Dark companion seems very situational to me. While it is a step up in power over a familiar, I don't know it merits additional points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeddicus
    2) The martial study feats are for an escape route (and a second use of it) which were mentioned in the notes section.
    Yes, but you could have gotten them via a class level (of which you had 20) versus feats (of which you used 2 out of 9). This was a step down in power compared to what your peers did with feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeddicus
    3) Yes the base stats are not good enough for Blackguard spells but that's what WBL is for. This was also mentioned in the notes.
    I don't think I gave any points for any mention of WBL. Perhaps in a smaller peer group I could have gone into detail regarding use of items. As it was, I made a conscious choice to completely disregarded any mention of items due to lack of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeddicus
    4) The choice of Blackguard was for primarily the aura of despair which is essential for the debuffing and fear aura created. You noted that in your scoring. Yes it also did give full BAB which was needed. Besides Abjurant Champion is a "known/expected" prestige class that would have done nothing for the build's debuffing schtick. It was avoided on purpose.
    Perhaps I was harsh on that. I did note it gave you some benefits. I withdraw part of the deduction (it still ate at least two feats you otherwise didn't utilize, improved sunder and cleave, as well as 5 skill points in hide) -.25 instead of -.5.

    ---------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Majeed Azar
    The only real dispute I have is that according to this Manifester is Equal to Caster. So to me that allows ToT to increase my Manifester Level.

    Excerpt

    Manifester Level: The psionic equivalent of caster level. Your level in the class that gives you access to the particular psionic power you're manifesting. Most powers have variables, such as range or damage dealt, that depend on your manifester level. Your manifester level also affects the power in a few other ways (for example, the maximum number of power points you can spend on the power [see Power Points, below]).
    If the judges still choose to not allow it all well.
    While there are many ways that psionics and magic are transparent, this is not one of them. Honestly, psionics are not well supported throughout the ruleset. If I had my druthers, I'd make spellcasting prestige classes advance manifesters, and vice versa with only a few exceptions (cerebremancer, I'm looking at you). However, I am bound by the rules that are set out in the rulebooks.

    There would be no need to create written adaptations such as Daggerspell Mage that can be converted to psionics (CAdv pg. 32) and Anima Mage as well (ToM pg. 53.) Also, both warlocks and artificers have specific rules that allow them to be advanced by +1 spellcasting class (Complete Arcane p18 and Magic of Eberron p53, respectively) when they otherwise would not be able to do so. If you can find a rules citation that supports your case, I'll reconsider, but I am unaware of any.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

  7. - Top - End - #637
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    mattie_p, thanks for the quick response.

    I'm going to have to agree with Emrys on this one, though. The very next line of the Rounding Fractions section is as follows:

    Quote Originally Posted by d20 SRD, Rounding Fractions (cont.)
    Exception: Certain rolls, such as damage and hit points, have a minimum of 1.
    I would certainly count a level effect as one of the exceptions (for a minimum of 1).

    EDIT: Fun fact - the quoted rules are in the Dice section of the game basics, not the feat information. It's talking about die modifiers, not meeting feat prerequisites.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    So that's all the disputes besides the white whale handled. If the judges finish ahead of the new deadline, will we still wait for it or proceed on to XLVI?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    My responses were swordsaged by another query:

    Quote Originally Posted by The White Whale
    Sudden strike is applied to enemies reduced to cowering by imperious command or rendered panicked, as cowering foes lose Dex to AC. A character who fails a swim check also loses Dex to AC (DMG 92) for when the White Whale knocks opponents into the water.
    Standard action activation, I don't think you mitigated that (could be wrong, if so, pm away!). So it reduces the next round to normal fear/shaken before you act. And knocking them into the water, while fun, seems situational to me. No adjustment.

    Quote Originally Posted by The White Whale
    Lion's charge is a 4th level ranger spell, and as such can be used to gain pounce. Sorry I neglected to mention that bit. While your suggested levels would indeed nab more BA, it loses 4th level spells. Also there isn't much to dungeoncrash with in the water. There's method behind my madness.
    RE: pounce - as mentioned, you don't have the wis to cast it without items (Although, my copy of SpC labels it Ranger 2, p133 in the reprint). Even so, you get it 2, 3 times a day, as opposed to every charge? No adjustment.

    As I mentioned in my previous post, I ignored any benefits from WBL due to the volume of entries, even and especially stat boosters. Even with an item, you'd get cast a single 4th level spell a day.

    With my suggested levels, I was just thinking out loud. Getting 4th level spells as opposed to higher BAB. You makes your choices and you takes the consequences. I didn't stat out if you would have been higher with my judging with my suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by The White Whale
    As for casting 4th level spells, I assumed that a +4 item for wis would be available at level 17, at which point the cost is completely affordable. Barring this, the White Whale still knows the 4th level spells list, and as such can use wands and the like for it without any UMD checks.
    As I mentioned above, I ignored any benefits from WBL due to the volume of entries. No adjustment.

    Quote Originally Posted by The White Whale
    As for Darfellan having the aquatic subtype, while the racial summary doesn't list it, the racial summary also doesn't give Darfellan a type. Thus one must refer to the chart on page 34 which lists its type as Humanoid (aquatic).
    This one is really dicey. Darfellan appears three times in Stormwrack:

    P 34, where in the table it says: Humanoid (aquatic)

    p 37, where the aquatic type should go (compare to Aventi p34, Aquatic Elf p40, and Shoal Halfling p 45, which explicitly mention it), there is no mention of aquatic subtype, or any subtype.

    p143, the monster entry, which gives the subtype as darfellan (but they are sample creatures, so who knows).

    If you go by text trumps table alone, they have no subtype. If you go by majority rules, they have no subtype either. It is only if you choose 1 out of 3 entries, or if you say they are all partially correct, that they get the aquatic subtype you need. Explaining all of this in your entry would probably have helped, especially if you gave an alternative in adaptation notes. But you didn't. No adjustment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    mattie_p, thanks for the quick response.

    I'm going to have to agree with Emrys on this one, though. The very next line of the Rounding Fractions section is as follows:

    Exception: Certain rolls, such as damage and hit points, have a minimum of 1.
    I would certainly count a level effect as one of the exceptions (for a minimum of 1).
    I respectfully disagree. A level as part of a ability check is not a die roll. Additionally, many special abilities are based on hit dice. For example:

    The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is:

    10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).
    I am aware that sample creatures are known for being incorrect, but can you (or anyone) demonstrate a published 1 HD creature with a supernatural ability that allows a saving throw that rounds up?

    EDIT: Fun fact - the quoted rules are in the Dice section of the game basics, not the feat information. It's talking about die modifiers, not meeting feat prerequisites.
    Again, I respectfully disagree. In the PHB, they are found on page 304, under general guidelines. On the SRD, they are found under a subheading equivalent to the Dice section.
    Last edited by mattie_p; 2013-06-08 at 10:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    I am aware that sample creatures are known for being incorrect, but can you (or anyone) demonstrate a published 1 HD creature with a supernatural ability that allows a saving throw that rounds up?
    I'll chime into this conversation with my favorite monster, the Petal: their Sleep Songs ability rounds down from 1 HD. 18 Charisma, but the DC is 14. This supports the idea of initiator level rounding down to 0.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    I am aware that sample creatures are known for being incorrect, but can you (or anyone) demonstrate a published 1 HD creature with a supernatural ability that allows a saving throw that rounds up?
    Shocker Lizards. Stunning Shock (Su) is a DC12 Reflex save that's Constitution-based... yet their Constitution score is only 13.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Shocker Lizards. Stunning Shock (Su) is a DC12 Reflex save that's Constitution-based... yet their Constitution score is only 13.
    Shocker lizard has two hit dice

    In all seriousness, even giving Emrys the .25 points won't change their rank. We can take this to another thread (or the RAW thread, as you already did. I will refrain from answering there, although a quick google search seems to confirm my reading).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    Shocker lizard has two hit dice

    In all seriousness, even giving Emrys the .25 points won't change their rank. We can take this to another thread (or the RAW thread, as you already did. I will refrain from answering there, although a quick google search seems to confirm my reading).
    Well, I'll be damned.

    You're correct in that it won't change the rank - agree to disagree?

    No matter - I'll give contestants until tomorrow night to air any final disputes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    You're correct in that it won't change the rank - agree to disagree?

    No matter - I'll give contestants until tomorrow night to air any final disputes.
    Fair enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    The Tie at the second position broke after the lasts corrections (I think that is good) and the tie reapered at first place after the second correction (mentioned below this post)

    {table=head] Rank |Build |First judge score |Second judge score |Average
    1st |The dead Mist |16.75 |13.75 |15.25
    1st |Vox Dracul |14.75 |15.75 |15.25
    3rd |Ornixen |15.5 |14.5 |15
    4th |Krumbalt |13.5 |15 |14.25
    5th |Leide Magora |12.5 |15.5 |14
    6th |Suspect 1 |15.75 |11.75 |13.75
    7th |Halyee Tsossysss |13.5 |13.5 |13.5
    8th |Firnesquis |12 |14.75 |13.375
    9th |Emrys |12.75 |13.25 |13
    10th |Wyrmlord Kranzon |10.5 |15.25 |12.875
    10th |Spyro |13.25 |12.5 |12.875
    12th |Sigismundo Celine |11.5 |14 |12.75
    12th |Zeddicus |12.5 |13 |12.75
    14th |Violet Ruskin |10.5 |14.75 |12.625
    15th |Doc D'oc |12.5 |12 |12.25
    16th |Lady Gray |11.75 |12.5 |12.125
    16th |The White Whale |12.25 |12 |12.125
    18th |Doraanar Gireen |11.25 |12.5 |11.875
    18th |Abrasa Kal |11.75 |11.5 |11.875
    20th |Tristyn R'yr |11 |12 |11.5
    20th |Aleksander |10.5 |12.5 |11.5
    22nd |Calsus |11.5 |10.5 |11
    23rd |Majeed Azar |8.25 |9.25 |8.75 [/table]

    ---

    If anyone wants my opinion I agree with Mattie_p on the initiator level but I houserule it away.
    Last edited by thethird; 2013-06-09 at 06:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    One more edit. Now that I have determined Vox qualifies for evangelist, he also gets the +.25 elegance bonus I granted to everyone who qualified by RAW for all of their selections. I have already updated my judging post to reflect this.

    This may change the rankings. I suggest someone who is table proficient to update the table, as I do not care to.

    EDIT: And, like a swordsage, thethird updated it as I was posting! It's magic!
    Last edited by mattie_p; 2013-06-09 at 12:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    Change made

    Table wise I always found this resource extremely useful. You paste in the first box a table copied out of word/excel (or similar program) and click convert to make it a giantitp table.
    Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    Change made

    Table wise I always found this resource extremely useful. You paste in the first box a table copied out of word/excel (or similar program) and click convert to make it a giantitp table.
    Oh, I can make tables. I have a spreadsheet laid out with the 20 level build for when I want to enter IC or Zinc Saucier. I just figure with as much work as I've done in judging, I'll allow someone else the pleasure of doing the tables.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV



    I always found some pleasure in ordered data, and tables are good for that. And now I should try to sleep some more...
    Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post

    The process of gaining a level is explained on pages 58-59 of the PHB. These steps are sequential, meaning you cannot do step 9 and then go back and do step 7. You select feats in step 7. The feat "Extra turning" requires
    That would mean a sorcerer could not take Scribe Scroll as a 1st level feat, an initiator class couldn't take martial stance as a first level feat, A dwarf monk couldn't take Hammer Fist at first level. I thought there was a rule out there somewhere that you could do steps 6-9 in the most beneficial order...or maybe it was a suggested houserule?

    Edit: Just doing a quick scan of the first level feats on the entries submitted this time I count no fewer than 4 that have this issue.
    Last edited by Darkcouch; 2013-06-09 at 04:29 AM.

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    Please, refer to pg. 87 of the Player's Handbook or to the feat section of the SRD.

    "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite."

    I still feel that an initiator level of 0 impedes one to benefit from martial study. Although he can select the feat he cannot select a maneuver (because his initiator level is 0).

    It is also true that this contradicts the leveling guidelines presented in page 58-59 of the PHB, and unfortunately the example provided doesn't really help, since one gains skill points before feats. I believe that the rules compendium doesn't address this problem, anyways it is dubious.
    Last edited by thethird; 2013-06-09 at 05:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkcouch View Post
    That would mean a sorcerer could not take Scribe Scroll as a 1st level feat, an initiator class couldn't take martial stance as a first level feat, A dwarf monk couldn't take Hammer Fist at first level. I thought there was a rule out there somewhere that you could do steps 6-9 in the most beneficial order...or maybe it was a suggested houserule?

    Edit: Just doing a quick scan of the first level feats on the entries submitted this time I count no fewer than 4 that have this issue.
    It also renders Extra Turning an ineligible Feat choice for a 1st level Cleric.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkcouch View Post
    That would mean a sorcerer could not take Scribe Scroll as a 1st level feat, an initiator class couldn't take martial stance as a first level feat, A dwarf monk couldn't take Hammer Fist at first level. I thought there was a rule out there somewhere that you could do steps 6-9 in the most beneficial order...or maybe it was a suggested houserule?

    Edit: Just doing a quick scan of the first level feats on the entries submitted this time I count no fewer than 4 that have this issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    It also renders Extra Turning an ineligible Feat choice for a 1st level Cleric.
    Level 1 does not have this problem, as they have special rules on page 6 of the PHB. There, it specifically says the following
    Feel free to look ahead or to backtrack and do something over if you need to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    Level 1 does not have this problem, as they have special rules on page 6 of the PHB. There, it specifically says the following
    I'll not extend the debate any further in this thread.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    Look, this competition is supposed to be fun. I have no wish to cause dissent, and the consensus on the feat thing seems to be against me.

    In the interest of the good-natured spirit of the competition, I am removing the penalties on Abrasa Kul for the Song of the Heart feat at level 3, Doc D'Oc for the Improved Binding feat at level 3, and Emrys for the Extra Turning feat at level 6 (I will retain the penalty for martial study). I will not, however, award the bonus +.25 elegance points for qualifying for everything, nor will I modify judging on feats which were clearly out of order.

    Additionally, while looking through all entries elegance scores for such penalties, I discovered I did not award Spyro the bonus points for qualifying for everything. I have remedied that.

    So net result is Abrasa Kul, Doc D'Oc, Emrys, and Spyro all received an extra +.25 points.

    I already updated my judgement post to reflect these changes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    Changes made

    Surprisingly I had "screwed" Spyro's numbers and awarded that .25 preemptively.
    Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    And with that, is that the last of the disputes so we can get on to the unveiling and next SI?

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    Since the deadline was extended 24 hours I don't think so... although it is Kuulv's call.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLV

    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    Changes made

    Surprisingly I had "screwed" Spyro's numbers and awarded that .25 preemptively.
    Actually, I modified the text and then didn't modify the point totals correctly. Spyro should have 12.5. I think. Please doublecheck my math.

    Quote Originally Posted by yugi24862 View Post
    And with that, is that the last of the disputes so we can get on to the unveiling and next SI?
    There might be more disputes, I posted my judgement less than 24 hours ago, not everyone might have read it yet. It is up to the chairman.
    Last edited by mattie_p; 2013-06-09 at 09:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

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