OOTS #887 - The Discussion Thread

[Roland Itiative]

I've been thinking (not sure if anyone else brought up this before)... What if this page is a mesh of the individual illusions each member (sans Belkar) are having, rather than a shared illusion? So, we see a bit of every illusion, but Roy doesn't see Haley swimming in gold or Tarquin and Nale going good, and so on. With that, we'd have the opportunity for the illusions to be conflicting (something we don't actually see happening), and we could get Belkar's illusion next.

It would be great to have a page dedicated to what Belkar wants most now. It would show us exactly how far his character has developed, with no "pretending to be a team player while still being a psychopath". I imagine such an illusion would still show us he wants to cause a lot of death, but at the very least it would show some desire to save Durkon.

That, or Durkon being alive, while Belkar dies, is Belkar's contribution to the shared illusion, a consequence of his survivor's guilt.

[DaOldeWolf]

This comic just makes me more anxious of what is going on outside the illusion. I wonder how much time has passed. The Linear Guild is getting closer and the Order are sitting ducks. How will the Order free themselves from the illusion?

[St Fan]

I've said it in the previous thread, and I'll say it again: what will break the spell is Hinjo's sending reaching through to Roy's mind and announcing the arrival of Xykon and the destruction of the resistance. Which will make Roy go "Wait, that can't be, we killed Xykon, and we fought alongside Thahn and the others to retake Azure City! How can they be...", thus planting a seed of doubt.

And it's painfully obvious it is a shared illusion. Give it up with your silly "separated fantasies" theories.

[OverdrivePrime]

Absolutely outstanding update. I'm curious if this is just seen through Roy's eyes - and his empathy for his friends shows their happy endings as well, or if we're seeing multiple perspectives. I'm pretty sure it's just Roy.

I really like how from Roy's perspective, Belkar stays dead, and they bury him with a hero's grave, but don't try to resurrect him. Belkar is dangerous and evil, and Roy's life would (usually) be better without him.

I'm very curious what the illusion is doing in Belkar's mind. Is it nothin' but killin' and killin' and killin', or are he and Mr. Scruffy hanging out on the beach with nothing but cold beer and hot women for miles and miles?

In any case, Draketooth's illusion is absolutely brilliant in its insidiousness.

[t209]

Wait, doesn'tt it fulfills elan's happy ending.

[Darzil]

So, when did the illusion take over ?

We first see the runes at the start of 885. We know that at the end of 886 we see from outside that they are under it's control, that their victory over Xykon is in their heads, and that the runes are glowing.

My interpretation is that the rune's glow is only visible if not under the effect of the illusion, and that the rest of the panels from the start of 885 were from the point of view of the party.

That being the case it is quite likely that Xykon has not turned up, and nor has V, who was headed in their direction in 884.

V to turn up and dispel the illusion?

[stevem]

It's a shared illusion. Belkar isn't contributing as he died the previous page. Perception is the [illusory] reality.

It could also mean that Belkar is dead in real life, the illusion being so real and his physical, mental and emotional condition being so poor.

[deimos3428]

It'd be kinda awesome if that were simply the last strip ever, and the readers were left to eventually assume a TPK. Sometimes the game just ends that way.

[JCAll]

After staring at it for some time, I believe the panel after Elan with the lolipop is actually V arriving to visit Haley, Elan, and their children.

I say this because V(and it's obviously V) appears to be flying, V and Haley are great friends even before they joined the order and would likely continue to be so even years after the adventure ends, and because there are 3 blonds and 2 red heads of varying heights in the panel.

[Szarrukin]

Interesting... nobody even tried to raise Belkar? He's such a good...

Oh, wait.

Well... too bad it's just an illusion.

[Kornaki]

I like the idea that Belkar's fantasy is that he died instead of Durkon. Beyond that, it's clearly a combination of Roy, Elan and Haley's fantasies as opposed to any individual and I suspect the reason we don't see Belkar's is because we will either see it next page (it being a significant aspect of his character development) or we will never see it (in order to continue the masking of how deep his character development really is)

[Psyren]

Wait, doesn'tt it fulfills elan's happy ending.

I doubt it - it's an extreme closeup of Roy's eye we're looking at (note the dark patch in the top right corner, that's his forehead.) If this were meant to be Elan's happy ending we'd see his eye instead.

Plus, there are details that Elan doesn't know e.g. what Eugene looks like, Julia's attitude towards Roy etc.

[littlebum2002]

I read most of the posts on today's strip, but not all, but I only noticed one other person who posted this, but...

It seems BLATANTLY obvious to me that this is Rich's way of ending the book without ending the story arc. The book is, as many have pointed out, running long already, so if he wanted to fit the entire arc into the book he would have to wrap it up rather quickly. So, instead, give the book a "psudo-ending", while keeping the story arc open.

I mean, when I saw this comic, the very first thing that popped into my mind was "end of the book", before I even noticed what was in the strip. It just looks like an "ending" strip to me, even though the comic itself obviously hasn't ended.

[GKBeetle]

I so love that part of Elan's happy ending is that he gets to ride a dinosaur.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

A few things:

1. I wonder who that is trapped in the force cage in the panel of Haley swimming in the treasure.

2. Why would the MITD be shaking hands with Ochul in any of their combined fantasies?

3. I'm fairly certain this is a combined illusion based on the first couple of panels. If anything, all of these images fall in line with the last pages - Xykon has been defeated.

4. That Belkar is dead could be because Roy and Haley both know he will be dying soon, and in the previous illusion he died in the battle.

5. Anyone else find it weird that in panel 881 they find out Durkon's a vampire, but in this illusion he shows up fine with a friendly Malek. In the 5 stages of grief - Denial?

6. I love the Mount Doom reference with Xykon's philactery.

7. I notice that while they are fixing the gate on Durukon's tear, they don't fix Azure city, or have any reference to the Gate they are currently hunting down in pyramid.

8. I love the reference to the swirly eyes from the last panel in this set up. We are legit seeing into their eyes.

[Kaulguard]

NOT a theory: what we are seeing is a shared illusion. This 'frozen in place' stupefaction IS necessary to move the plot forward, as what happens next will directly follow from this current situation. This is NOT Elan's "happy ending".

Simple reading comprehension and basic understanding of story structure leave these conclusions in 0 doubt. None.

Theory: V will stumble upon the party, and break the illusion, and the Order will be down another member, as Belkars disillusionment (pun unintended, but serendipitous) with the order will now be complete.


Side note: I get the impression that some readers might be best served to call Rich up, and get the rest of the story in a flat monotone, "and then this happens, and then this happens, and then..." since there seems to be little appreciation for the nuance of storytelling among such folks.

[Gift Jeraff]

I doubt it - it's an extreme closeup of Roy's eye we're looking at (note the dark patch in the top right corner, that's his forehead.) If this were meant to be Elan's happy ending we'd see his eye instead.

That's the rune wall in the Malack panel being distorted, like the floor in the Gobbotopia panel.

[Kish]

Uck...*shakes off the "this is Elan's prophecy!" debate*

It has to be a mixed vision. I can believe that Roy would believe Xykon suddenly recognizing him, but not that anyone but Elan would believe Tarquin--and Nale!--suddenly being allies. The "Haley swimming in gold" panel (among others) clearly comes from Haley's mind, and yet she'd be the least likely to ever believe Tarquin could be a genuine ally....And so on.

[Psyren]

A few things:

1. I wonder who that is trapped in the force cage in the panel of Haley swimming in the treasure.

That's an open doorway, not a forcecage. (The person standing in it is Elan, watching her.)

2. Why would the MITD be shaking hands with Ochul in any of their combined fantasies?

...Good question, I don't think even V or Haley saw the dynamic between those two. Though O-Chul could have mentioned his friendship with the monster to Roy/Hinjo during the tactical debrief.

3. I'm fairly certain this is a combined illusion based on the first couple of panels. If anything, all of these images fall in line with the last pages - Xykon has been defeated.

Agreed, there are definitely elements of other minds besides Roy's creeping in.

4. That Belkar is dead could be because Roy and Haley both know he will be dying soon, and in the previous illusion he died in the battle.

The curiosity here is not so much that Belkar is dead, but that he was left dead, which would fit with Roy more than anyone else.

5. Anyone else find it weird that in panel 881 they find out Durkon's a vampire, but in this illusion he shows up fine with a friendly Malek. In the 5 stages of grief - Denial?

Yep - Definitely Roy's invention there.

7. I notice that while they are fixing the gate on Durukon's tear, they don't fix Azure city, or have any reference to the Gate they are currently hunting down in pyramid.

I would guess that one scene was simply meant to say "...and then we repaired the gates!" without necessarily having to show all of them being visited.

8. I love the reference to the swirly eyes from the last panel in this set up. We are legit seeing into their eyes.

Just Roy's eye if my theory is right.

[Psyren]

That's the rune wall in the Malack panel being distorted, like the floor in the Gobbotopia panel.

No, above the runes. The border just past the runes in that panel is the edge of Roy's eye, with the dark part above that being his forehead.

[imaloony]

This. I get the feeling a decent amount of time is passing.

A max of a day or two could pass. Remember that they're humans (and a halfling), they can't survive without water for more than a day or two.
Besides, I doubt it would last that long without the Linear Guild or V finding them.

Also, no one will believe me, but I totally called it being an illusion from the moment Xykon stepped into the room.

[Gift Jeraff]

No, above the runes. The border just past the runes in that panel is the edge of Roy's eye, with the dark part above that being his forehead.

That's still part of the wall. Well, ceiling actually. Look at the last 2 strips.

[King of Nowhere]

I wonder how long is this illusion lasting. it seems to have gone on for a while. has they been trapped for hours? days? more? maybe nale and his companions were equally trapped?

Aside from that, showing an illusion wouldn't have much point to the story, so I think there must be some reason we are being shown this. I wonder what it could be.

And I totally loved the scene with roy and julia passing under roy's statue. the looks on their faces were... were... I have no words for it. Shows once more how stick figures can be more expressive than real ones

[CoffeeIncluded]

Goddamn...But if this is a shared vision, then where's Belkar? I am so scared as to what happens when they wake up. Fantastic job, Giant.

[Deepbluediver]

I doubt it - it's an extreme closeup of Roy's eye we're looking at (note the dark patch in the top right corner, that's his forehead.) If this were meant to be Elan's happy ending we'd see his eye instead.

That's just the start of the spiral. It could still be only Roy's illusion, but that little patch of color doesn't mean anything.

A few things:
1. I wonder who that is trapped in the force cage in the panel of Haley swimming in the treasure.

I think it's just Elan standing in the doorway

2. Why would the MITD be shaking hands with Ochul in any of their combined fantasies?

The comic's readers have also fallen under the illusion. We ALL failed our will saves.

3. I'm fairly certain this is a combined illusion based on the first couple of panels. If anything, all of these images fall in line with the last pages - Xykon has been defeated.

There might be some similarities between the illusions, but there's nothing specific I think to say we are seeing only one or the other.

4. That Belkar is dead could be because Roy and Haley both know he will be dying soon, and in the previous illusion he died in the battle.

Or it's evidence that this is JUST Roy's illusion.

7. I notice that while they are fixing the gate on Durukon's tear, they don't fix Azure city, or have any reference to the Gate they are currently hunting down in pyramid.

There's a pic of them rescuing Azure city from the goblins; how many panels do we need of V and Durkon casting spells on a gate?

[Psyren]

That's still part of the wall. Well, ceiling actually. Look at the last 2 strips.

Not if we're looking at a giant eye.

It's all speculation at this point anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. But I still say that's Roy's eye. More of the scenes there could only have come from him than anyone else.

[dancingfiend]

This update made me water up a little bit, though that remains to be seen if its sleep deprivation or both.

/crraaazy theory- the order levels up from roleplaying xp inside the illusion/

[y2kyle89]

It'd be kinda awesome if that were simply the last strip ever, and the readers were left to eventually assume a TPK. Sometimes the game just ends that way.

So what you're saying is that the comics after this one are just delusions our pathetic minds came up with to deal with it?

[alowe]

Don't know why but seems like a turning point to me

[Sizdothyx]

Belkar's probably too winded/anemic to be influenced properly by the illusion, so it "killed" him. OR, Roy's subconscious is informing him of the Oracle's prophecy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html), and it's his mind that's killing Belkar off.

My two cents. Excellent strip.