OOTS #887 - The Discussion Thread

[luc258]

Quite disappointed by Roy actually, he prefers Durkon to be alive and yet he does not care about Belkar's resurrection, even though he is still in a good shape for resurrection (not disintegrated or anything). Plus his big ego and carelessness in Belkar's funeral.

I respectfully disagree. Any good character that would bring back Belkar while knowing his true character, like Roy does, should take a direct step towards neutral alignment. I think it is perfectly in character for Roy to not ressurect Belkar in this illusion.

[Zephyr1011]

Well, while this could be argued to be Elan's Happy Ending, I don't think that that would happen, as it feels a bit contrived, and it hardly applies to Elan alone. I can't see any reason why the Oracle would have singled Elan out specifically, when this is a happy ending for at least Roy and Haley too.

[Bluepaw]

Probably mentioned already -- didn't have time to read the whole thread -- but in the scene showing the last gate... they've got one arcane caster, one divine caster, just like the ritual to move the thing. Are they yet aware that that's the combination needed? If so, what do they imagine themselves doing?

Or am I forgetting something... can anyone but the bearer of the Crimson Mantle use the divine half of the ritual?

[Mono Vertigo]

It's incredible how the spectacle of so many happy or hopeful scenes can be so unambiguously creepy.

[Kish]

What more is necessary for a happy ending?

It being the ending.

So many people seem to think the Oracle told Elan, "You will have a happy moment."

Probably mentioned already -- didn't have time to read the whole thread -- but in the scene showing the last gate... they've got one arcane caster, one divine caster, just like the ritual to move the thing. Are they yet aware that that's the combination needed? If so, what do they imagine themselves doing?

Rebuilding the destroyed Gates.

They know nothing about Redcloak's plans, but they know it takes an epic-level arcane and epic-level divine caster to build the Gates (originally, Dorukan and Lirian).

[Roland Itiative]

Probably mentioned already -- didn't have time to read the whole thread -- but in the scene showing the last gate... they've got one arcane caster, one divine caster, just like the ritual to move the thing. Are they yet aware that that's the combination needed? If so, what do they imagine themselves doing?

Or am I forgetting something... can anyone but the bearer of the Crimson Mantle use the divine half of the ritual?

The ritual to create the Gates also requires the two types of caster (Dorukan and Lirian being the ones who created it), and the Order knows about it (through Shojo). That panel was showing them restoring the Gate on what appears to be the rift previously contained within the dungeon of Dorukan. So, just one more step in solving every problem they've faced.

It's likely that the Dark One's ritual is somehow based on the original ritual used to create the Gates, though how he came to know about it is a mystery.

[ellindsey]

Probably mentioned already -- didn't have time to read the whole thread -- but in the scene showing the last gate... they've got one arcane caster, one divine caster, just like the ritual to move the thing. Are they yet aware that that's the combination needed? If so, what do they imagine themselves doing?

They imagine themselves to be rebuilding the gate that used to be protected within Dorukan's castle. I don't know if they have any awareness of what's required to do that, or of the Ritual. I think Roy and the others are just imagining the most powerful spellcasters they know doing incomprehensible spellcastery stuff to fix the gate.

[REbot]

Hmm... the author likes his comic titles to have double or triple meanings, to play on words. So is this happy ending like a fairy tale or is the spiral layout meant to represent happiness ending? The team seems to be stuck in some sort of ultimate fantasy where they win and magically resolve the outstanding plot elements. I'm curious if the next strip will be where the fantasy bubble pops and shunts them back to reality?

Interesting points noted:
Elan and Nale coming to some sort of truce...
Durkon is reunited with the group, but Belkar is buried...
Hinjo has not yet contacted the OotS regarding the fall of the Resistance...

[Belkar<3]

Really nice panel design inside the swirling eye, Giant.

Thank you.

[Keeper of Starlight]

Though I originally liked the idea that they all had individual fantasies, this comic has me convinced that they are all sharing in one fantasy. A lot of people seem to be saying that either they are having individual fantasies and that we don't see Belkar's, or that it is a group fantasy where Belkar is being overruled by the other three, but I think Belkar is being included in the fantasy. He already knows that he is going to die soon, and there is nothing he can do about it. I believe that he feels guilty that Durkon died for him, and that he is contributing to the fantasy that Durkon comes back. I think he wants to die fighting against Xykon with his group, even if his relationship with them is shaky. And I think above all, he hopes that he will be buried with Scruffy and remembered by people, for whatever reason they might remember him. We don't see it, but his gravestone probably reads:

Belkar Bitterleaf
Sexy Shoeless God of War

[WoLong]

This strip must have been very painful to draw.

It being the ending.

So many people seem to think the Oracle told Elan, "You will have a happy moment."

Exactly.

[Zombimode]

You know, maybe it's because I've issues with life, but simply seeing all those happy moments where everything works out was incredibly heartwarming

[CWH10301964]

As far as the prophecy of the Oracle--it went like this:

Elan: Will there be a happy ending?
Oracle: For you, at least.

[Sir_Leorik]

Here's a cheerful thought:

The illusion seems to be playing out the fantasies of the combined group. We see things that clearly correspond to Roy's, Elan's, and Haley's "happy ending." They even show Durkon coming back... so, in this fantasy, it would be entirely consistent for Belkar to be resurrected. He's not.

What if part of that is Belkar's fantasy? Maybe he's actually feeling guilty for Durkon's death, to the extent that he wishes he were dead himself?

At eleven pages this thread is way too long to check if anyone has posted a similar thought, so I apologize in advance if I'm repeating anyone.

I think the phantasm is a shared one for the whole group, but certain panels are the deepest wishes of specific members. Panels 1-3, 10, 16 and 17 seem to be drawn from everyone's collective memories and desires, with panels 4, 13, 15 and 18 showing Elan's wishes, panels 5, 8 and 12 showing Haley's wishes and panels 6, 9 and 14 drawn from Roy's wishes.

Panel 11 is drawn from Elan, Haley and Roy's wishes. I think the reason for the differences in the way Elan and Haley are "grappling" and Roy and Celia are, may be because both Elan and Haley are present and their mutual desires are reinforced, while Celia is not present, and some part of Roy's mind knows that she's not here and would never initiate anything without consent.

Panel 7 is drawn from Belkar's mind: he's the only one who really cares about Mr. Scruffy getting a decent burial, in a grave next to his. He knows that the OotS would never raise him from the dead so the best he can hope for is to lie beside Mr. Scruffy for all eternity.

[Sweet_Goddess]

I also think it's a collective happy ending, seeing as they are all getting their respective wishes. Except Belkar, he didn't get a kickass death. He didn't get get to say even one line in the whole illusion. The Order doesn't want him in their fantastic future, so he's killed off, and only Elan isn't apatethic about it. Roy's posture in the tombstone panel says "why bother let's go". So, we'll see what role will Belkar have in the disruption of this illusion. :)

+1

I can barely imagine the amount of work that must have gone into this. In theory this is just one panel (with panels inside) but it represents the work that must normally go into several comics. Each scene has lots of detail that is important (eg Julia's frown that I referred to, Roy waving off Belkar's funeral) as well as being visually very different from other scenes.

How did the Giant persuade Stanley Kubrick to do a guest strip? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/image...llconfused.gif

It might be interesting to line up the panels with the facial expressions.

• Roy is celebrating victory. The panels seem to line up pretty well.
  
  • One: Victory!
  • Two: Victory!
  • Three: Victory!
  • Six: Success!
  • Nine: Recognition
  • Fourteen: Friendship
• Elan is drooling, what does it mean? I thought maybe gorgeous women, but no evidence of that here. Maybe he's just a drooler.
  
  • Four: Fraternal and Filial love
  • Thirteen: Romantic love
  • Fifteen: Simple Hedonism
  • Eighteen: Simple Hedonism
• Haley doesn't look entirely happy. Her panels suggest she should be. On the other hand the first two are combat so maybe she's concentrating.
  
  • Five: Victory!
  • Eight: Victory!
  • Twelve: Treasure!
• Belkar looks distinctly unhappy.
  
  • Seven (Is this Belkar's?): I'm dead, Mr. Scruffy's dead, nobody cared to raise me, and Roy and V don't care. On the plus side, Durkon is alive.
• Hard to assign:
  
  • Ten: Focus is on V and Durkon. I guess Roy is the closest to the centre.
  • Eleven: Could be Roy, Haley or Elan.
  • Sixteen: Who cares about meeting the paladins again? Not obviously anyone. Not that O'Chul isn't an awesome guy.
  • Seventeen: O'Chul and the Monster in the Darkness resume their friendship. This really looks like the Monster's fantasy. I don't suppose he wandered in and got trapped by the runes? That seems unlikely. And would be weird. I suppose Elan is the next most likely to want it.

I think the match-up works best if we just look at the largest, outer panels.

There are a few other points that Belkar could have a hand in. His grave scene for one, since the two people he hates (jerk with sword and exploding runes elf) are leaving, while the people he's actually on alright terms with are mourning him. Also the scene where Haley/Elan and Roy/Celia are making out, since they're in the same room and both pairs have been reluctant to get hands on while anyone else was watching, on top of him being a perv we shouldn't put voyeurism past his ghost. I mean, if it's good enough for Roy's Dad...

Um, Roy isn't doing any of the above in the graveyard scene. While the others are dealing with Belkar and Mr. Scruffy's grave, Roy is waving to his dad's spirit... notice his posture is the same as the previous panel, only from the the opposite side.

[Sir_Leorik]

This strip has a point, it shows that the story has already got a "Happy Ending". Which means things might not end well, even for Elan.

Except that this contradicts The Giant's commentary in Book 3 to the Oracle's prophecies. Rich specifically had Elan ask that question, and The Oracle specify that Elan would get a happy ending, to reassure the audience that even if the journey is long and hard, there will be an end, and Elan will be happy when it comes. The Giant then subverted that by showing how happy Durkon was with a prophecy of returning home "posthumously", so YMMV, but I think Elan will get something that resembles a traditional happy ending, even if he has to work hard to earn it.

[Sir_Leorik]

As far as the prophecy of the Oracle--it went like this:

Elan: Will there be a happy ending?
Oracle: For you, at least.

No it went like this:
Will this story have a happy ending?

The Oracle: Yes -- for you, at least.

The two clauses, "for you" and "at least" are modifying "Yes", as indicated by the dash between "Yes" and "for". The Oracle means that Elan's story will have a happy ending, even if Durkon or Belkar (whom the Oracle predicted would die) would not.

[Ingus]

Thank you, Giant, for giving us the finale we won't get

[BronyHeresy]

Do you remember that episode of TNG where Picard gets trapped in an illusion? Where he lives a whole fulfilled life, raises kids, gets a loving family and everything?

...I think my heart just broke.

[Fitzclowningham]

I think if Belkar is seeing all of this, he's going to feel very betrayed when he comes out of it. He spent all this time and effort trying to be a team member - saving Haley and Celia's lives in the process - and no rez for Belkar, and no sadness at his grave, which they only bothered to dig after they 'saved' Azure City.

I'm guessing that if he saw this, he's going to revert to his prior nature, hard.

[Sir_Leorik]

Do you remember that episode of TNG where Picard gets trapped in an illusion? Where he lives a whole fulfilled life, raises kids, gets a loving family and everything?

...I think my heart just broke.

If you'll recall, in that episode ("The Inner Light"), when Dr. Crusher tried pulling Picard out of that illusionary life, real Picard and illusionary Picard both went into cardiac arrest and nearly died! Getting the OotS out of this phantasm might be easier said than done...

[Smolder]

Do you remember that episode of TNG where Picard gets trapped in an illusion? Where he lives a whole fulfilled life, raises kids, gets a loving family and everything?

...I think my heart just broke.

At least when his illusion ended, he got a souvenir flute (and years of lessons).

When the Order snaps out of their illusion, they won't have anything to show for it.

[Deepbluediver]

I think if Belkar is seeing all of this, he's going to feel very betrayed when he comes out of it. He spent all this time and effort trying to be a team member - saving Haley and Celia's lives in the process - and no rez for Belkar, and no sadness at his grave, which they only bothered to dig after they 'saved' Azure City.

I'm guessing that if he saw this, he's going to revert to his prior nature, hard.

Belkar still is, by his own admittance, still a spiteful, evil little bastard, who is only pretending to be less evil lately because people will give him stuff for it.
There's nothing to revert because nothing has really changed.


I'm constantly surprised by how far people will go to sympathize with the villains or excuse their misbehavior, while at the same time condeming the good guys for any minor slight.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

So, Julia is still rather miffed at Roy in the illusion. She's not hero-worshipping him. Eugene accepts him (as indicated by a smile and a friendly wave), but it's not like he's shouting Roy's praises from the mountaintops.

There are flaws, little disappointments in the happiness. Like how Nale is still frowning at Elan.

Is this because if things were too perfect, it wouldn't be believable? But, considering the hold that the illusion seems to have on their minds, I don't see why they should really still have the ability to reason their way out. I mean, mind control is mind CONTROL and all that.

Even if it doesn't have the power to shut down their reasoning, do you always automatically question reality whenever things start going really well for you?

[BronyHeresy]

There are flaws, little disappointments in the happiness. Like how Nale is still frowning at Elan.

Is this because if things were too perfect, it wouldn't be believable?

[peejaybee]

Well, technically, it appears to be an enchantment effect rather than an illusion. Otherwise they wouldn't have the swirly eyes.

Allow me to second that. Maybe I didn't read closely enough, or maybe I read it on too small a screen at first, but I took all the panels at face value and figured that Xykon's death had triggered some sort of charm spell in the last frame, and was puzzled as to how Belkar had come back to life.

Spoiler

Show

887 woke me up to the fact that there was some serious unreality going on, and now I appreciate the profundity of 886, but by no means do I want to go around dissing the reading comprehension of others who missed the (imo) subtle clues as to the real nature of 886.

[sam79]

Even if it doesn't have the power to shut down their reasoning, do you always automatically question reality whenever things start going really well for you?

When playing D+D, yes. Though that may say something about my DMs...

[F.Harr]

Yup. That's a fantasy. I find it intersting that it includes Belkar's death but not a rapprochmon between V and I. I don't think V is part of the halusination.

[Smolder]

Allow me to second that. Maybe I didn't read closely enough, or maybe I read it on too small a screen at first, but I took all the panels at face value and figured that Xykon's death had triggered some sort of charm spell in the last frame, and was puzzled as to how Belkar had come back to life.

You are not alone. More than a few people interpretted #886 as "Symbol of Insanity in Xykon's skull"

But the presence of Belkar is supposed to be the reveal that the battle you just saw wasn't real. There's no other way to explain that unless Xykon was never there.

Of course, it's easy for us to say. We have a week between each comic. I'd bet that someone reading these comics all in one sitting would take a bit longer to put the pieces together. It would be understandable for them to be in the dark up until the second panel of #887. There is absolutely no way to get past that panel without concluding that something is seriously wrong with their reality.

[Canuck617]

Two things:

1) The fact that everything is wrapped up so neatly in a package, all happily ever after and all, can be a bit horrifying, as I get the feeling it's going to be something close to the complete opposite. I'm probably wrong, but the foreboding feeling still crossed me.

2) Elan's "Happy Ending" refers to both a moment and not a moment.

It's a Schrodinger's Moment!

or

Ha Ha! Multiple entendres!

Take your pick.