OOTS #887 - The Discussion Thread

[Jeremias]

I'd imagine that the spell created the speculated mass illusion, aka. everyone sees the same things. It appeases to all to keep them enthralled.
Belkars feels like he should be dead, and rest get resolution to their fantasies.
The reason Vaarsuvius and Durkon don't get any resolutions is because they aren't there.

I'd imagine that they break out of it because Mr. Scruffy freaks out due to either a. not being under the spell or b. Belkar being dead. Then he wakes Belkar by scratching, who weirds because dead don't feel pain, and Belkar wakes rest of the team. Then Roy gets angry at Belkar because he ruined his fantasies.

[Hbgplayer]

Ok, judging from both the title, and the fact that Elan is present in a majority of the panels, I'm guessing that this fantasy is Elan's. He want's everybody to be happy, but doesn't really like Belkar, so this is what makes the most sense to me.

I'm also very afraid about how long they've been standing there now-it looks like that would have had to take a long time in reality.

[Scowling Dragon]

Technically the question was "Will this story have a happy ending?"

The answer is yes. It did HAVE a happy ending.

[DaggerPen]

It does look like padding, at a time when the book i overlong. It does confirm that this is a delusion, and it's not bad of itself, but as said, it doesn't seem to advance the plot.

Yay, extra long book!

Seriously, why would this strip be padding? Padding is for when you can't already make the book long enough on its own. Aside from being a really neat strip, visually, and from giving character insight, and from making it absolutely clear that this is an illusion (which some readers missed last strip), this strip implies significant passage of time, which is a rather important plot point in and of itself, and is also notably missing input from Belkar, implying that he may be in a position to break the illusion, or that something else may be happening with him. I am almost completely satisfied with this update, and would probably be completely satisfied if only we could see some of those center panels in a bit more detail. XD

[Porthos]

I'm also very afraid about how long they've been standing there now-it looks like that would have had to take a long time in reality.

While I am afraid of that, and have already said so, there's also the idea that what happens in the mind can happen in a blink of an eye in 'real time'. It could just be a few minutes passing right now.

Or hours.

Could go either way, really.

[Felhammer]

I think this comic was needed because some people were having trouble figuring out the last one was an illusion.

[Geordnet]

Also, it almost looks to me like MitD is shaking hands with O'Chul...

Hm, you're right!

O'Chul definitely seems to be holding something, and it could very well be 's hand. Which would imply that he has a hand, and that it would be somewhat yellowish.

More fuel for the fires of speculation, I guess.

[Francis Davey]

It seems unlikely that Belkar would imagine Mr. Scruffy being dead, though.

Yes. Point taken. Though maybe Belkar is imagining "they both go together" and will share in his afterlife. Perhaps.

Evil people get a poor deal on afterlives in D&D, unlike good people, so I'm not sure to what extent they would imagine death as a "happy ending" in any case, but we haven't seen much about the evil afterlife here in OOTS. It is something that varies a lot between D&D campaigns, so the Giant's own take on it could be almost anything.

The good afterlife is certainly interesting.

[ti'esar]

...That was actually rather unnerving.

Also sort of confusing - are different panels from different characters' illusions? If so, why do they all form a coherent narrative? And if not, why are there some elements (such as Elan's peaceful family reunion) that are obviously personal fantasies?

[Bulldog Psion]

I'm still puzzling over two things:

1. Who is imagining the MitD and O-Chul shaking hands? I didn't think any of the Order knew about that whole thing. Are we getting an outside party's fantasy here, too? Is the MitD caught in the spell nearby?

2. The title of the strip is "Happy Ending." Is this Elan's happy ending? #634's title, "The Wrong Reasons," also referred to the prophecy that was fulfilled in it. Since Elan's happy ending is probably impossible (i.e. reconciliation with Nale and Tarquin is clearly part of it, and will never really happen), did his prophecy get fulfilled with this strip?

[davidbofinger]

It seems unlikely that Belkar would imagine Mr. Scruffy being dead, though.

Belkar might want Mr. Scruffy to join him in the Chaotic Evil afterlife.

[nonamearisto]

The really insidious thing about these illusions is that they are not 100% happy; they have just enough sadness to make them believable, as life has a balance of both. Belkar's death clearly was not something which all the party wanted, and there is violence and conflict in the fantasies. Same thing with that superman comic: Jor-El was discredited because when Krypton survived in that dream, he was considered to be crying wolf and became embittered.

That said, one part seems to have come true: Tsukiko is dead. She's either dead or defeated in their fantasy.

[Anarion]

...That was actually rather unnerving.

Also sort of confusing - are different panels from different characters' illusions? If so, why do they all form a coherent narrative? And if not, why are there some elements (such as Elan's peaceful family reunion) that are obviously personal fantasies?

I think it's an overarching narrative that's being told. It's not any one person's perspective, but includes satisfactory resolutions to pretty much everyone's conflicts. Haley's Dad gets to take out the thieves guild with her help, Roy gets to lord it over Julia with the statue, Belkar gets a proper burial and on and on.

And it's masterful as an illusion. Absolutely masterful. My favorite part of this is how...unfulfilled I feel. It includes no growth, no real gain or maturation for the members of the order. Everything just works out for them, but it's too perfect, unrealistic even. Nothing is that nice and tidy and people are rarely happy when it is.

[Chess Tyrant]

Hey, check it out! It's the happy ending we're certainly not going to be getting!

Edit: seriously, in another couple of years, we'll all look back on these pictures and cry.

[Porthos]

I think this comic was needed because some people were having trouble figuring out the last one was an illusion.

You.... Might not want to look at Twitter right now....

Specifically the responses to Rich's auto-update tweet.

[Cheesegear]

At first I thought it was Elan's. It's obvious right?

But then I realised that it shows a lot of Haley doing kick-butt things, and a lot of her getting the things she wants (killing Tsukiko, bathing in gold, Belkar is dead, etc.) and the more I looked at it, the more I want to say that this is Haley's dream, which happens to include Elan being happy because Haley loves him.

Or it could be a shared dream.

Or I'm thinking too hard, and it really is Elan's.

[SaintRidley]

Hm, you're right!

O'Chul definitely seems to be holding something, and it could very well be 's hand. Which would imply that he has a hand, and that it would be somewhat yellowish.

More fuel for the fires of speculation, I guess.

Given it's all an illusion, nothing actually useful for speculation though.

I'm still puzzling over two things:

1. Who is imagining the MitD and O-Chul shaking hands? I didn't think any of the Order knew about that whole thing. Are we getting an outside party's fantasy here, too? Is the MitD caught in the spell nearby?

2. The title of the strip is "Happy Ending." Is this Elan's happy ending? #634's title, "The Wrong Reasons," also referred to the prophecy that was fulfilled in it. Since Elan's happy ending is probably impossible (i.e. reconciliation with Nale and Tarquin is clearly part of it, and will never really happen), did his prophecy get fulfilled with this strip?

To #1 - I imagine O-Chul briefed the Order on the fact that the monster is "a good man." One or more of Roy, Haley, and Elan probably has that hanging out in the back of their head - I'm guessing Elan, since reunions of that sort seem to be his sort of thing.

To #2 - Considering nothing has actually happened in this strip, I don't think this will fulfill Elan's prophecy. It's referencing it, but definitely not fulfilling it.

[ti'esar]

You.... Might not want to look at Twitter right now....

Specifically the responses to Rich's auto-update tweet.

Please tell me you're not implying what I think you're implying.

[thatSeniorGuy]

Even more than that, though, I think this is probably the best non-traditional panel layout Rich has conceived of yet.

+1.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if O'Chul told Roy about MitD, given that the later could potentially be turned against Xykon ...

those damn ninjas

[SaintRidley]

You.... Might not want to look at Twitter right now....

Specifically the responses to Rich's auto-update tweet.

Man. So many people without a lick of reading comprehension.

[Gusion]

Made me think of Alice & Wonderland... down the rabbit hole...

[Porthos]

Please tell me you're not implying what I think you're implying.

Check for yourself. Though the comments will soon decouple from the update due to there being too many of them.

The comparison to 8-bit theater just made me go .

ETA::: As I suspected, the comments have indeed decoupled. Check here for a real time look at responses to "@RichBurlew". It should catch most of them.

And if someone is reading this thread weeks/months in the future? Well, you'll just have to take my word for it.

[thereaper]

I'm still puzzling over two things:

1. Who is imagining the MitD and O-Chul shaking hands? I didn't think any of the Order knew about that whole thing. Are we getting an outside party's fantasy here, too? Is the MitD caught in the spell nearby?

2. The title of the strip is "Happy Ending." Is this Elan's happy ending? #634's title, "The Wrong Reasons," also referred to the prophecy that was fulfilled in it. Since Elan's happy ending is probably impossible (i.e. reconciliation with Nale and Tarquin is clearly part of it, and will never really happen), did his prophecy get fulfilled with this strip?

Haley and Belkar knew that the MitD played tea party with O'Chul when he was paralyzed. They also know that he took O'Chul away, and didn't eat him.

They don't have to know about the two's friendship to imagine that scene (we interpret it as two friends reuniting because we know they are friends; Haley and Belkar may interpret it as the two finally getting to know each other for real).

Moreover, it's entirely possible (however unlikely) that O'Chul told them about the two of them.

[nonamearisto]

Check for yourself. Though the comments will soon decouple from the update due to there being too many of them.

The comparison to 8-bit theater just made me go .

... they honestly cannot tell that this is an illusion?

[Porthos]

Man. So many people without a lick of reading comprehension.

It's what I said before in the last main discussion thread; the power of the visual medium can be mighty fierce. I still remember the confusion over some of instances of Lost where they pulled a very blatant THIS IS NOT HAPPENING - ITS ALL A DREAM and people were still wondering if it had really happened. Mind, I know that Lost could be difficult to grok sometimes, but I'm talking about when it was super super blatant.

... they honestly cannot tell that this is an illusion?

Well some of them are being sarcastic about it, IMO. But others... Well, I can't speak for them but I'm guessing that at least some of them are not sure as to what is really happening.

[DaggerPen]

You.... Might not want to look at Twitter right now....

Specifically the responses to Rich's auto-update tweet.

...

*goes to look*

... wow, some people really have no reading comprehension.

[SaintRidley]

... they honestly cannot tell that this is an illusion?

I too find myself amazed, shocked, dismayed, and concerned that any human being could exhibit such levels of reading comprehension. This isn't zero reading comprehension, but negative reading comprehension. Frankly, I didn't think it was possible until 886 and 887 for that to happen. But here we are.

[madock345]

Anybody else having "For the Man Who Has Everything" flashbacks?

I can't wait for the epic rage beatdown The Order is going to give out when they wake up.

[B. Dandelion]

2. The title of the strip is "Happy Ending." Is this Elan's happy ending? #634's title, "The Wrong Reasons," also referred to the prophecy that was fulfilled in it. Since Elan's happy ending is probably impossible (i.e. reconciliation with Nale and Tarquin is clearly part of it, and will never really happen), did his prophecy get fulfilled with this strip?

I don't think so. War and XPs says Elan's prophecy refers to the end of the entire story and it's a word from the Giant to the audience not to worry too much when things get scary because it will all work out in the end. A prophecy twist wouldn't fit with that.

[Tre of the Wood]

Man. Look at all the custom art that went into this piece. Many comics use mainly the basic character models. Nearly every panel here had to be drawn new, and it is done amazingly. Nice art, Rich. Very nice.